Why I Don't Play Nearly As Much Any More

[mkah_mvet]

TL;DR, because parkour 2.0 tips the fun/suck ratio across the suck threshold.

Every activity in life has a combination of fun and suck.  If the fun outweighs the suck, we consider it fun and keep doing it.  I cut back from playing an irresponsible number of hours a day, to just a couple missions a day.  This change in behavior has parkour 2.0 at it's core (because parkour 1.0 was just so damned fun when you knew what you were doing, it kept the scales tipped into the fun.)  I consider parkour 2.0 to be a mobility nerf.

First, a description of my pre-mobility nerf behavior.  
- Almost exclusively solo player (the extra hassles of bringing a team, including longer loading times and bypasses, add extra to the suck without adding anything to the fun.)
- Almost exclusively a mobility player (I do not like defense or survival.  Sure it's fun-ish to kill so many guys, but if I really wanted wanton slaughter, there's other games for that.  In both of those mission types, the fun of slaughter is heavily outweighed by the "you must stuck with it for X time" being more like a chore, pushing them both squarely out of fun and into suck.  I really enjoyed spy 2.0, but all mobility favoring missions were just dandy.)
- Goal oriented (I'd have several goals to work on, and focus on whichever one seemed most fun to work on at that moment.)

As I said, the core difference is the change in mobility.  The slide attack was pretty fun per-nerf, but it was just extra spice to the real fun of mobility, the jump attack.  Pre-nerf, the jump attack was a joyous fling across great distances.  From the perspective of a mobility player, it was fun to realize "oh, I can make it across that chasm?  I had no idea!  Sweet!"  Specifically, the fun part of jump attack was the acceleration.  When you jumped, the attack started at a high acceleration and tapered out in a fairly visceral manner.  It felt like your movements had substance.  Even heavy weapon jump attacks felt like your weapon carried you through the attack, like you were freakin' Thor.  Bullet jump, on the other hand, reminds me of that dream we all have where you're running and your arms and legs feel like you're moving through molasses and all progress is frustrating.  It's bad when your core gameplay mechanic is a literal nightmare.  It is still fun-ish to be able to clear long distances, but the slow acceleration and thus poor finger feel definitely shifts the mobility experience firmly out of the fun column.  The mobility nerf had some other knock on effects (like how my melee weapon selection has gone down from trying to balance mobility and damage, to just going highest damage) but the main point is the change in the fun factor.

 

(Yes, I have played enough to get the hang of post-nerf mobility.  Yes I know the player can mitigate some of the nerf with some ridiculous button mashing that is reflective of poor game design.  Yes I have played with the post-nerf mobility enough to wrinkle out much of the dumbest game design issues with the system.  As a mobility player complaining about mobility, yes, I have tried mobility.)

With the change in the fun factor because of the mobility nerf, the value of my goals has changed.  Right when the change kicked in, I was working on zanuka and g3.  I'd spam out a bunch of fast, high mobility missions (pluto sabotage missions could be done in less than a minute) and even though I'd end up sitting at extraction waiting for possible spawns, the act of traversing the levels was so fun, it didn't matter.  In preparation for zanuka/g3, I worked off my negative syndicate standings to avoid unwanted death squad spawns, which also removed the daily goal of the daily syndicate missions.  My other goal would have been grinding mastery through spy missions, which pre-nerf was fun even though it was grinding.  With the shift in the fun/suck because of mobility, now the suck of a grind outweighs the fun.  I kept working on collecting prime parts in the void post-nerf, but I've pretty much finished up all the mobility missions, and with the change in the fun/suck balance, I'm not in a terrible rush to grind the defense/survival missions.  The payoff of the fun parts of the game is so much less now, I'm less willing to tolerate as much suck.  I even skipped the last void trader, because the fun/suck ratio wasn't in a good enough place for it to be worth even seeing what he had for sale.  Basically, my only goal right now is to farm g3 a little, but that's not as fun as it would have been pre-nerf, so I just don't play much any more.

The last little detail was the removal of being able to skip the post-mission countdown in solo mode.  After a mission, deciding what I want to do next, my first thought is "not to sit with my thumb up my butt waiting for an arbitrary countdown timer" and then I go read a book or watch netflix.

DE, you can do what you want with this bit of feedback.  Ignore it, act on it, add it to the pile.  Whatever.  At the very least, bringing back jump attack would restore a some (but probably not all) of the fun/suck balance.  Though I suppose what I'm really asking for is the impossible "make this not to have happened."

[pavlo555]

At first, coptering/Jump attack abuse =/= Parkour 1.0. Parkour 1.0 was about wallruns which were so slow, and sliding and roll jump - that's all. And coptering was just a feature to less than 50% of melee weaponry - so it was removed in favour of variety, and then they gave tunes to current parkour , reworking it into new parkour system.

 

What do I want to say? You don't cry about old parkour system , which sucked more, you cry about coptering.

[p3z1]

Jump attacks are as broken as slide attacks, mobility-wise.

 

Fang series, tipedo (to name a few) dominate the slide attack mobility, while orthos prime, tonbo seem to be the king of jump attack mobility.

 

As much as the new parkour is a bit slow compared to both of these, well, there's room for improvement.

 

Also, removing the OP fling makes jump attacks more offense-oriented than compared to escape/mobility function.

 

Edit: The part where you can't press space to skip the mission rewards must be a bug, and should hopefully be fixed. Probably the only thing I agree with in your topic/ wall of text

Edited September 13, 2015 by p3z1

[RavenCorella]

Nerf... what nerf? 

[(PSN)LA_10599]

Parkour 1.0 was fun ? There must be something really wrong with you....seriously

[nish197]

you mean the mobility buff right? i literally feel the complete opposite of what you've said with the mobility changes, its made it way more fun in my eyes, and lack of stamina makes it even nicer

[YasaiTsume]

What nerf?

[Institute-Marksman]

Wow. Nothing about RNG, or farming. Nothing about weapon nerfs.

Acting like a real bltch because the game's parkour system got an overhaul and you can't adapt to it.

That's your own fault, not the game's.

Just wow.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Institute-Marksman

[MrDar1o]

People still cry about coptering? I see we have another forum's infinity after "brung beck Exclibrur Preime plox"

[dadaddadada]

I like to think that changes are integral part of the gaming experience in warframe. Parkour rework? Fine, I'll try to be as effective as possible with it (with decent results i might add). Weapon nerf? Try out new stuff. Experimenting is part of the fun.

[pavlo555]

People still cry about coptering? I see we have another forum's infinity after "brung beck Exclibrur Preime plox"

You'll need to visit Russian forums some time lol

 

Such thread is created every freaking day lol ...

[mkah_mvet]

Summary of typical responses so far:

"I lack reading comprehension skills"
"I sucked at pre-nerf mobility and am not qualified to speak on this subject."

 

Out of respect to the handful who actually seemed to read enough to give a real response, here's my counter arguments:

The argument that the mobility changes allow for more variety in weapon choices is bunk.  Experiment with every weapon.  Try them all.  I'm running out of melee weapons to try personally.  And they are all the same thing to a mobility player.  I assume there are some people out there who are masters of melee and have all the combos perfected and stuff, but that's not what I ever played the game for.  There are other games that have much less convoluted melee systems.  For the sake of pure effectiveness, all that matters in weapon choices is kills per second.  For me that leaves Jat Kittag.  Long reach, effective procs, high damage (I originally thought it was going to be scindo prime, but it doesn't quite have the same reach to be a real room sweeper like the jat kittag.)  Pre-nerf it was a matter of deciding which weapon had an acceptable combination of kills/s and the different mobility considerations.  It turned a multi-dimensional question with several possible right answers into a 1-dimensional question with only really 1 right answer, even if not every player happens to agree on what that answer is.

 

The comment about all the other annoying stuff everyone already brings up...  well it's back into the fun/suck ratio.  Before, the fun outweighed the suck well enough for it to be worth putting up with.  Now it's getting less and less.

 

For the specific details of differences between pre and post nerf mobility, such as wall run and such, they have already been exhaustively detailed by other people.  Yeah, wall run changes made one of my favorite spy vaults into one of my most hated, but that wasn't the point of this post.  The main core point was the acceleration curve that made the old jump attack so much more satisfyingly fun than bullet jump.  I don't see why both can't coexist in the same game.  Keep the dumb bullet jump.  That's fine.  People who don't know any better like it.  That's fine.  Bullet jump is actually more effective in a small handful of situations, it's just less fun.  And none of the other changes help get through a level quicker or get as many kills any faster.

 

I can see why parkour 2.0 is appealing to so many people.  When I was new to this game (update 6 I think...  it was a long time ago) either jump attacks weren't a thing yet or I hadn't figured them out yet.  And I only played for a couple months before i found something else to do with my time.  Now the mobility tricks are front and center.  Now people don't have to choose between mobility and their fantasy of "I look so badass with this weapon regardless of how ineffective it might actually be."  DE may gain and retain more rookie players because of parkour 2.0, at least for awhile.  And that's fine.  But the entire reason I  played was because of the satisfying, visceral feel of pre-nerf mobility vis a vis jump attack and lesser slide attacks, and even the springy feel of the old slide jump.  All the snappy quick movements have been replaced by that nightmare molasses.  And that makes me less inclined to actually do missions, much less log in, and god forbid buy plat or another prime.

 

Anyway, my point was to tell my own story, share my own experience.  I acknowledge that not everyone's will be the same.  Not everyone plays for the same reason or enjoys the same things.  I'm just one data point that DE already has in their server logs, I feel I presented my own arguments and sticking points effectively, and I just hope the story behind my change in behavior proves useful to DE.  They have actually been some of the most responsive devs I've seen in a game, and trust that they can see what I'm trying to communicate.

[pavlo555]

Summary of typical responses so far:

"I lack reading comprehension skills"

"I sucked at pre-nerf mobility and am not qualified to speak on this subject."

Okay, what can we take from a so-called feedback which is only filled with word "suck" and "nightmare" ? Seriously...

 

Second point is, jump attack is only a feature of weapon that has been taken away, it Did not define parkour.

 

Third point you hopped on in your recent post, how uninterruptible, rocketing into the lasers wallrun that was able to be cancelled only via adding one more button held (which, in turn, was uncomfortable for console players), is easier to handle, than not having a stickiness and launch - two main problems about wallrun, at all? We got more flexible, more map-adapting wall-hopping, and after each hop we can bulletjump , allowing us to gain a great advantage of enviroment interraction.

 

"I don't see why both can't coexist" - because that would look like a really dumb try to polish their game. With such bugs, you can't push your game as polished one. coptering was removed because it looked dumb, unreal, and broken. It also wielded a lot of problems, living up to a name of bug. Those problems were really small effectivity in smaller rooms - you would stick to the wall because "MAI AWSOOM TAIPEDO" gave you insane momentum that was not breakable. Wallhopping  fixes that , totally grabbing away your momentum if you wish.

 

Last point - well met! Bye-Bye, newbie!

[IX-44]

I was about to say I had a little bit of empathy for you. It's always hard when a game changes and you don't like it.

 

Then I saw this little bit:

Summary of typical responses so far:

"I lack reading comprehension skills"
"I sucked at pre-nerf mobility and am not qualified to speak on this subject."

 

1. You seem to have skipped over the four replies that gave actual feedback.

 

2. We get that you play very little, we're sorry you don't like pressing so many buttons.

 

3. No... No. Your coptering won't come back. As rude, blunt, and blatantly mean this might sound:

 

You can't have it back. We voted it off the island because it was broken.

 

4. We all don't lack reading comprehension skills. I'm pretty sure most of the people here read your thread and decided the same conclusion I came to: you're just here because you want the game back. The one since before these big changes happened. My general experience in online games is that it doesn't come back ever, if not for a very long time, when people want that old school nostalgia.

 

5. The majority of this... "pre-nerf" mobility was picking one out of five melee weapons and swinging it over your head like... well... like somebody in Super Smash Bros. Brawl who picked up the Golden Hammer.

Which is to say, swinging it like a complete idiot.

 

We knew it was bad. We knew it was going to get fixed. And we all padded ourselves for how horrible Parkour 2.0 was going to be.

 

You seem to have skipped the padding, dived headfirst into the wading pool of the Parkour 2.0 tutorial and complained when you accidentally broke your nose.

 

 

 

Sorry for your loss! It's not coming back!

[p3z1]

-snip-

 

Out of respect to the handful who actually seemed to read enough to give a real response, here's my counter arguments:

The argument that the mobility changes allow for more variety in weapon choices is bunk.  Experiment with every weapon.  Try them all.  I'm running out of melee weapons to try personally.  And they are all the same thing to a mobility player.  I assume there are some people out there who are masters of melee and have all the combos perfected and stuff, but that's not what I ever played the game for.  There are other games that have much less convoluted melee systems.  For the sake of pure effectiveness, all that matters in weapon choices is kills per second.  For me that leaves Jat Kittag.  Long reach, effective procs, high damage (I originally thought it was going to be scindo prime, but it doesn't quite have the same reach to be a real room sweeper like the jat kittag.)  Pre-nerf it was a matter of deciding which weapon had an acceptable combination of kills/s and the different mobility considerations.  It turned a multi-dimensional question with several possible right answers into a 1-dimensional question with only really 1 right answer, even if not every player happens to agree on what that answer is.

 

That first part is rude af. Not sure who you're pointing that at though...

 

Back to topic:

 

Why'd you immediately change stances of your argument from melee mobility to kills-per-second melee? Also there are more choices available when DE removed coptering. Let me make a list (may miss some):

 

Melee weapons used when coptering was a thing: Fang series, dagger series, glaive series(?), staff series, dual zoren, dual ichor

Melee weapons used when jump attack flinging was a thing: Polearm series, staff series

Melee weapons used when both were removed: Tonbo, Boltace, D.nikana, Ninkondi, Glaive prime, Galatine, Scindo prime, Jat kittag, Dex dakra, Dakra prime, Redeemer

 

Now, current melee is now non-dependent for mobility, but is now more dependent on variety. Bored with slow swinging weapons, bring out a fast weapon. Need high damage, bring scindo p. Need stealth, daggers and redeemer do nicely.

 

Also, mastery of parkour 2.0 for best results. If you can't get a hang of it, suck it up and start practicing.

 

No time to practice? That's a problem you have to solve yourself then.

[(PSN)PeetSquared]

Man, you crazy! Parkour 2.0 is just plain better. Everything is more controllable and in the end, faster because of it. And this is coming from someone who loves melee to an almost belligerent degree.

[Liquid262]

Ya know it's really tough to type on my non-blu-lite keypad. Otherwise my kubrow will guard you with her life. 2nd star for sei-coherence sans glo-inn-d--dark kypad.

[UnderYourBed]

Good riddance to coptering. Now people don't people need to choose melee weapons by how good they are at increasing mobility but at how good they are at being melee weapons. Just because your criteria for choosing is limited doesn't it actually is.

Being able to traverse far longer distances faster, with more control, and without limiting your choice of weapons is pretty much the opposite of a mobility nerf.

[Scytze]

Read comments first, save yourself from gigantic wall of text, ty.

[HadrosaurHero]

I'm sorry that you're this distressed about the loss of an inefficient version of movement.

If not was fun for you then you found fun with it, but Parkour 2.0 is a much better system. You need to change with the game. No longer should you be rushing to the end of the level, you should be taking your time, go the scenic route.

Also using your melee for more distance was horrible. It didn't seem to work have the time.

[Thaumatos]

QQ about the old version of the game isn't going to help you here.  It isn't feedback and it only invites "death by forum troll."

 

As for DMAs, have you tried swinging immediately after bullet jump?  You've got some powerful momentum there.  Try rolling immediately after bullet-double jump while sliding.  Momentum gained by the dodge roll is very high as well.  Not trying to say you're a 'noob' so please don't take it that way.  It's sometimes hard, especially for vets, to unlearn something and re-learn it a different way.

 

Coptering isn't coming back.  Movement solely by swinging your weapon was meant to counter coptering without removing it.  They soon realized that nothing will stop people from creating a macro to move at light speed.  It was removed, sorry.  If you got used to the game with bugs in it, and they fixed the bugs, the only thing I have for you is my sympathy.  I've been down that road before...it sucks...you just have to deal with it and try to help devs make their decisions with as much information as possible.

 

If they end up taking their game in a different direction, so be it.  Not every game is for everyone.  If it were that easy, we'd all be playing the same game and there wouldn't be a gaming industry.  It'd just be the one game made by the one company.

 

Why did they leave it in for so long?  The simple answer is they wanted their game to succeed and they weren't sure where coptering stood on the 'pass/fail' test of their product.  They tried fixing it, and slide-jumping, early on.  They just had nothing to replace it with and, quite frankly, no real direction as to how much movement should be allowed in the game.  They've since made a decision.

[KittyBoJangles]

Man, you crazy! Parkour 2.0 is just plain better. Everything is more controllable and in the end, faster because of it. And this is coming from someone who loves melee to an almost belligerent degree.

Parkour 2.0 is a little better but the new setup, such as bunny hopping around is bad. I would like new animations but better yet, a setup where you can use either parkour system at the same time. The point people dislike parkour 2.0 isn't because of coptering alone, it's what they removed and replace in 2.0 that's upsetting.

[HurpadurpusRex]

Wow the trolling in this thread is real O.O. I'm sorry to read this mkah_mvet. A lot of the players who have had a problem have quit warframe because it was a core component failure. I think our future is getting trolled by 15 year old console gamers and underachiever who couldn't use the old system. And like the word copter.

 

This update brought many players who had never posted before out to cry out in upset, and with no recognition or response they surrendered their accounts to play other games as that fun at the core game play level was no longer there. I myself am playing at 10% what i used to. If some other things i predict will happen do happen i will stop checking in once a week. But we all still feel upset and would still resume playing with fixes to the current system or re-implementation of even some elements of the old system. I am done giving money to Warframe, but i would pay 1000$ for a LAN/Single player release of warframe pre parkour 2.0. Was thinking of how and where to make that offer still haven't figured that out. The developers don't really check here, but its not really kick starter appropriate.  All the same the offer is there. One way or another i will write that thread before I quit because it can't hurt.