Valkyr's Hysteria Is Not Overpowered.

[DamienTokala]

Yes it is. NERF PLEASE

[Kolos1001]

Yes it is. NERF PLEASE

Man if that's all it took to convince people...

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

And I'm glad you brought up newer players. It's a great entry frame that you can get early that ALLOWS you to do high level stuff. This is important. Even though there are better options, using valk lets new players have a chance at being useful. 

I'm amazed at how you can inverse anything being said to support yourself.

 

Valkyr can use invulnerability for 5-10 minutes without any heavy modding

 - Sure it's good because it allows new players to go into high level content without any natural progression!

 

We might as well make an ability which just completes a mission for you

 - Sure it's good! Everyone can complete any mission anyways, so why you have to waste your time running survival for 40 minutes? It should just award you for pressing one button!

 

Next we make an ability which awards you 100 platinum

- Sure it's good! It would save some time farming prime parts and spending hours in trade chat to find somebody. Also it would make the game even more free!

 

Next we make an ability which awards you a full set of Prime weapon/warframe of your choice

- Sure it's good! Everyone hates RNG, we should just be able to get what we want right away! Why we need to complete the same mission 15 times anyway, just give it to us!

 

Oh well...

[(PSN)Ninja_Reaper_916]

If it's not a problem then give it back to rhino frost and trinity and ya I know the whole but melee excuse lol god mode needs to go

[Kolos1001]

If it's not a problem then give it back to rhino frost and trinity and ya I know the whole but melee excuse lol god mode needs to go

You can't just brush off melee. Sorry. 

 

I'm amazed at how you can inverse anything being said to support yourself.

 

Valkyr can use invulnerability for 5-10 minutes without any heavy modding

 - Sure it's good because it allows new players to go into high level content without any natural progression!

 

We might as well make an ability which just completes a mission for you

 - Sure it's good! Everyone can complete any mission anyways, so why you have to waste your time running survival for 40 minutes? It should just award you for pressing one button!

 

Next we make an ability which awards you 100 platinum

- Sure it's good! It would save some time farming prime parts and spending hours in trade chat to find somebody. Also it would make the game even more free!

 

Next we make an ability which awards you a full set of Prime weapon/warframe of your choice

- Sure it's good! Everyone hates RNG, we should just be able to get what we want right away! Why we need to complete the same mission 15 times anyway, just give it to us!

 

Oh well...

Dat slippery slope fallacy. 

 

It eases entry for new players. Experienced players will likely choose the best frame/comp for the mission. Valk is rarely on that list. 

[ViolettaFoxx]

I really dislike being a high-level player with nearly everything earned in the game. And go through by myself min-maxing everything to extract the most potential out of Warframes and weapons, and then have them complained about endlessly by players claiming things like Valkyr and Excalibur being overpowered. 

 

I don't think I'll be able to play anymore if things are going to be nerfed in favour of players not on the level of others like the OP and I. You know who else is REALLY strong in low-levels? Rhino. Is Rhino overpowered? Hell no he's not. 

 

Is Valkyr really strong in low-levels, but as soon as you start hitting enemies level 50+ you should start watching yourself, and the gameplay now falls down upon player skill, adaptability to situations, and knowledge? Yes. yes. yes. Sure she's invincible when she has Hysteria active. But it's not ranged attacks like Excalibur's EB, it's melee. And if she hops out of her ultimate after a while, if you're not careful where you do it, you'll die instantly. And Nullifiers? They're the bane of her existence. At least Excal can throw energy-blades at them until they die, and still remain in his Exalted Blade.

 

You people really need to look at the picture as a whole; one aspect of one ability does not make or break a Warframe. And just because you feel indestructible playing against level 15-20 enemies in an Endless Survival or Defense, does not mean it will translate into the same success at higher levels.

 

I can do T4 survival for an hour straight with Excalibur in his Exalted Blade, just like Valkyr. He may not be indestructable, but he can destroy Nullifiers. Valkyr is invincible during her ultimate, but can not face a Nullifier easily. And forget a level 100+ one.

 

Valkyr is fine. She may be overplayed right now, but it's perfectly warranted. She just got a big quality-of-life update, and an amazing skin. Once she's not played as much anymore, you will forget all of your own opinions about her being "overpowered".

Edited October 12, 2015 by ViolettaFoxx

[Ronyn]

The "adequate responses" you get for asking "why aren't you looking at the game as a whole" is expressed below-

 

The issue is the people who are in favor of nerfs are looking at hysteria in a vacuum. Like the entire game is a 1vAll exterminate mission. If you take the entire game into consideration she's a niche pick for survival. There are better options for literally everything else. When looking at the game as a whole she is balanced.

 

When looking at it like the entire game is a t4 survival...sure she looks OP. 

The issue is the people who are against nerfs are looking at mission completion in a vacuum. Like the entire question of balance is decided by completion conditions. If you take an entire combat model into consideration, hysteria negates an important facet of it. There are better mechanics to achieve the same strengths without creating that problem. When you look at the nature of combat models as a whole she is imbalanced.

 

When looking at it like the entire games balance is defined by mission objectives....sure she doesn't look OP in a way that matters. 

(see how easy it is to accuse the other side of looking at things in a Vacuum)

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What metrics? 

You know darn well what metrics. You can choose to agree or disagree with there true importance of course.

But if you're going to boil other folks arguments for the metrics they use down to "because they said so" then you're arguments are no better than "because you said so".

 

 

He asked for examples for games where invincibility was available. I gave 4 or 5 and you pick the only one that has a limited time to respond with. What about the 3 or 4 other options that are literally permanent? Nothing. 

Seriously? You oversimplify my question down to "games where invincibility was available".....then pretend my response about why almost every case (either outscaling content or limited time power up) still fit within my actual criteria (not the oversimplified version) didn't happen. lol 

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What is not exactly helpful is having the same conversation over and over. Which is why I keep trying to tell you that there is no point in doing so...

that we should just acknowledge our difference of motivation for requesting change respectfully and leave it alone.

I'm certainly open to knew lines of discussion, but the ones already had need no rehashing. The one advantage to internet debates is that stuff is saved in written form. :-)

Edited October 12, 2015 by (PS4)IIIDevoidIII
Removed Hidden Quotes

[Kolos1001]

The "adequate responses" you get for asking "why aren't you looking at the game as a whole" is expressed below-

The issue is the people who are against nerfs are looking at mission completion in a vacuum. Like the entire question of balance is decided by completion conditions. If you take an entire combat model into consideration, hysteria negates an important facet of it. There are better mechanics to achieve the same strengths without creating that problem. When you look at the nature of combat models as a whole she is imbalanced.

 

When looking at it like the entire games balance is defined by mission objectives....sure she doesn't look OP in a way that matters. 

(see how easy it is to accuse the other side of looking at things in a Vacuum)

----------------------------------------------

We did look at combat models. You said as long as there was room for error and that the player could be punished then it would be balanced. Both of which I found. There is room for error. That's when you left without a rebuttal. 

 

Seriously? You oversimplify my question down to "games where invincibility was available".....then pretend my response about why almost every case (either outscaling content or limited time power up) still fit within my actual criteria (not the oversimplified version) didn't happen. lol 

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What is not exactly helpful is having the same conversation over and over. Which is why I keep trying to tell you that there is no point in doing so...

that we should just acknowledge our difference of motivation for requesting change respectfully and leave it alone.

I'm certainly open to knew lines of discussion, but the ones already had need no rehashing. The one advantage to internet debates is that stuff is saved in written form. :-)

Hysteria is limited unless you use out scaled mods. If you min max far beyond the scale of the normal game then yes you can be invulnerable for a very very long time. I pointed out many other games that have the same effect. 

 

Don't use primed continuity/nightmare mods/primed flow/corrupted mods and see how long it lasts. 

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

Hysteria is limited unless you use out scaled mods. If you min max far beyond the scale of the normal game then yes you can be invulnerable for a very very long time. I pointed out many other games that have the same effect. 

 

Don't use primed continuity/nightmare mods/primed flow/corrupted mods and see how long it lasts. 

It really isn't that limited. If my math is correct, with a single streamline your drain would be 1.75 per second. So considering you have 150 energy and activate costs 25, you have 70 seconds of invulnerability. And each energy pickup would extend it by 14 seconds. I'd say it's not that short and limited. I'm not sure how continuity would further extend this, as I don't remember the formula, but with continuity it would be even longer.

[Kolos1001]

It really isn't that limited. If my math is correct, with a single streamline your drain would be 1.75 per second. So considering you have 150 energy and activate costs 25, you have 70 seconds of invulnerability. And each energy pickup would extend it by 14 seconds. I'd say it's not that short and limited. I'm not sure how continuity would further extend this, as I don't remember the formula, but with continuity it would be even longer.

Ok so it's 50 seconds baseline. 

 

I'll concede that's a bit too long. 

Let's look at it like 100 energy because that's how much ult skill cost. 

 

At 100 energy it lasts 30 seconds. This is slightly too long but not horrible. The issue it seems to be with the drain. 

 

If we bumped it up to 3/s it would be 25 seconds at 100 energy and around 42 if you left it on at full and didn't use any other skills. 

 

3.25/s would be 23 from 100 and 38 from 150. 

 

To me 3/s feels right. 

Edited October 12, 2015 by Kolos1001

[Ronyn]

We did look at combat models. You said as long as there was room for error and that the player could be punished then it would be balanced. Both of which I found. There is room for error. That's when you left without a rebuttal. 

The rebuttal is there. I explained how games aren't balanced for the extremes of idiocy or perfection but on reasonable expectation of some mess up and some successes.   When the only mistakes we are talking about are absurd things like standing still watching the meter run out it is not a reasonable room for inherent error.

 

Hysteria is limited unless you use out scaled mods. If you min max far beyond the scale of the normal game then yes you can be invulnerable for a very very long time. I pointed out many other games that have the same effect. 

 

Don't use primed continuity/nightmare mods/primed flow/corrupted mods and see how long it lasts. 

What the "normal scale" of the game actually is..is hard to nail down.

The issue is that, beyond level 30, in any remotely appropriate match up between player/gear level and enemy match up it can last way too long if not indefinitely. Which is very unlike the examples you mentioned.

 

Also, we can argue that primed or nightmare mods push frames well beyond 30 or even 60.

But are we really going to say that those mods are outscaling level 150 enemies? 

 

Ok so it's 50 seconds baseline. 

 

I'll concede that's a bit too long. 

There ya go. If we can talk about how many seconds is appropriate we might actually get somewhere in the conversation.

Unfortunately, with the meta we have (mods/energy drops) it is difficult to alter in a way that doesn't result in it still going for way too long. An almost extreme measure like crazy energy drain speed or no ability to pick up blue orbs while hysteria is active would be required to stop how long lived it will reasonably be. 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Now I must go to work. 

Edited October 12, 2015 by Ronyn

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

Okay, I've found a formula

 

BaseDrain * (1 / Duration) * (2 - Efficiency) = Drain

 

So with regular Streamline + Continuity

2.5 * (1 / 1.3) * ( 2 - 1.3) = 1.35 (rounded)

 

So with base energy pool of 150 and cast cost of 17.5 (forgot about streamline affecting that as well the first time) the remaining energy of 132.5 would last for 98 seconds. Now if we add a regular flow there, you now have 300 energy pool. That would last for 209 seconds.

 

So with just 3 regular power mods, we can run around invulnerable for 209 seconds (considering we never pick up any energy). Each 25 energy pickup extends it by 18 seconds. And you deal insane damage. (since we are talking about early-mid game) 250 base damage, is almost twice as high as Scindo Prime, and it has much quicker attack speed rate.

[Slaviar]

There's one problem with everything "overpowered"- scaling. If scaling is changed all "op" abilities- Invisibility, Blessing, Exalted Blade, Molecular Prime etc- could be nerfed/reworked/balanced/whatever.

As long as there's every bullet=one downed Tenno perma CC, perma invulnerability etc will be only ways of playing long runs. Corrupted and Primed mods exist for a reason. They aren't here only as credit and core sinks. I didn't ranked them up for fun. I've ranked them to become powerful. I don't want to handicap myself to feel challenge.

So stop arguing about one frame which got popular thanks to new skin and buff. Use that energy to figure out new scaling.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Slaviar

[Kolos1001]

The rebuttal is there. I explained how games aren't balanced for the extremes of idiocy or perfection but on reasonable expectation of some mess up and some successes.   When the only mistakes we are talking about are absurd things like standing still watching the meter run out it is not a reasonable room for inherent error.

 

What the "normal scale" of the game actually is..is hard to nail down.

The issue is that, beyond level 30, in any remotely appropriate match up between player/gear level and enemy match up it can last way too long if not indefinitely. Which is very unlike the examples you mentioned.

 

Also, we can argue that primed or nightmare mods push frames well beyond 30 or even 60.

But are we really going to say that those mods are outscaling level 150 enemies? 

 

There ya go. If we can talk about how many seconds is appropriate we might actually get somewhere in the conversation.

Unfortunately, with the meta we have (mods/energy drops) it is difficult to alter in a way that doesn't result in it still going for way too long. An almost extreme measure like crazy energy drain speed or no ability to pick up blue orbs while hysteria is active would be required to stop how long lived it will reasonably be. 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Now I must go to work. 

I think accidentally running into a nullifier when they jump off from a higher level is fairly easy to imagine. Not absurdly stupid like watching the meter run out. 

 

The only place lvl 150 enemies are are in endless missions. I don't know what's intended to be the furthest you can go. 

 

I think 25 seconds for 100 energy is appropriate. 

 

 

Okay, I've found a formula

 

BaseDrain * (1 / Duration) * (2 - Efficiency) = Drain

 

So with regular Streamline + Continuity

2.5 * (1 / 1.3) * ( 2 - 1.3) = 1.35 (rounded)

 

So with base energy pool of 150 and cast cost of 17.5 (forgot about streamline affecting that as well the first time) the remaining energy of 132.5 would last for 98 seconds. Now if we add a regular flow there, you now have 300 energy pool. That would last for 209 seconds.

 

So with just 3 regular power mods, we can run around invulnerable for 209 seconds (considering we never pick up any energy). Each 25 energy pickup extends it by 18 seconds. And you deal insane damage. (since we are talking about early-mid game) 250 base damage, is almost twice as high as Scindo Prime, and it has much quicker attack speed rate.

You are sacrificing using all of your other abilities for that calculation. You are also assuming energy picked up is 100% efficient which is often not the case. You'll usually pick up energy and it will add 2 or 3 seconds

Edited October 12, 2015 by Kolos1001

[Ronyn]

I think accidentally running into a nullifier when they jump off from a higher level is fairly easy to imagine. Not absurdly stupid like watching the meter run out.

The only place lvl 150 enemies are are in endless missions. I don't know what's intended to be the furthest you can go.

I think 25 seconds for 100 energy is appropriate.

I said INHERENT margin for error. Inherent means its an always there limitation of the power itself. Not a select, power canceling enemy type that may or may even be in the mission type\faction your facing.

-----

If we are going to talk about scaling we need consistant rules.

If we are not counting endless missions then we are discussing valkyrs needs to melee\tank\ fight level 40 (starchart) to 80 (raid) enemies. In which case she has WAY more time at extreme resiliance\sustainability levels than she requires even with regular mods.

If we are counting endless missions then we are discussing what point (if any) one should expect to fall off in effectiveness.....and how primed\corrupted mods fit into that. In which case, either there is an enemy level we could no longer claim is outscaled by special mods....or we cannot suggest she is able to get near perma invulnerable due to outscaling because there is no outscaling.

-----

25 seconds for 100 energy might be alright. Unfortunately it creates concern of how it could fall too far on side or another.

1: with it being a toggle and how plentiful orbs usually are it might still be possible to stay in it for several minutes at a time practice.

2: if that equation turns out to be too limited it can leave Valkyr with just her high armor as a resiliance tool for a lot of the mission. thatisnt quite enough to retain her "super tough" combat identity in my estimation.

This is why I've always leaned toward other mechanics. Long term high dr...I can survive near anything as long as I keep fighting. But I can still die from any type of enemies if I mess up. Other folks have sugested that hysteria grants invulnerability for a very short time like 4 seconds then becomes DR. Stuff like that seems more realistic to tune properly.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Ronyn

[Kolos1001]

I said INHERENT margin for error. Inherent means its an always there limitation of the power itself. Not a select, power canceling enemy type that may or may even be in the mission type\faction your facing.

-----

If we are going to talk about scaling we need consistant rules.

If we are not counting endless missions then we are discussing valkyrs needs to melee\tank\ fight level 40 (starchart) to 80 (raid) enemies. In which case she has WAY more time at extreme resiliance\sustainability levels than she requires even with regular mods.

If we are counting endless missions then we are discussing what point (if any) one should expect to fall off in effectiveness.....and how primed\corrupted mods fit into that. In which case, either there is an enemy level we could no longer claim is outscaled by special mods.

-----

25 seconds for 100 energy might be alright. Unfortunately it creates concern of how it could fall too far on side or another.

1: with it being a toggle and how plentiful orbs usually are it might still be possible to stay in it for several minutes at a time practice.

2: if that equation turns out to be too limited it can leave Valkyr with just her high armor as a resiliance tool for a lot of the mission. thatisnt quite enough to retain her "super tough" combat identity in my estimation.

This is why I've always leaned toward other mechanics. Long term high dr...I can survive near anything as long as I keep fighting. But I can still die from any type of enemies if I mess up. Other folks have sugested that hysteria grants invulnerability for a very short time like 4 seconds then becomes DR. Stuff like that seems more realistic to tune properly.

It's very possible to just make it like Nyx absorb. Where getting hit drains it faster. 

 

With that change you'd be punished by letting it run out while you're near enemies because then you'd take all that damage. 

 

I'd prefer not to actually change what the ability does since we have Chroma and Excal

Edited October 12, 2015 by Kolos1001

[RexRgisIocus]

It's very possible to just make it like Nyx absorb. Where getting hit drains it faster. 

 

With that change you'd be punished by letting it run out while you're near enemies because then you'd take all that damage. 

 

I'd prefer not to actually change what the ability does since we have Chroma and Excal

 

This. I like this idea.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Cleaned up posts within this thread. 

The point of this discussion, thread, and forums is to discuss the game in a civil and productive manner. 
Derailing the topic into a 'he said; she said' slap fight is counterproductive to these goals and makes for an unfriendly forum environment. 

Take a moment to catch your breath, and talk it out without resorting to baiting and antagonistic arguments.

Thank you.

[--Sensei--]

I really dislike being a high-level player with nearly everything earned in the game. And go through by myself min-maxing everything to extract the most potential out of Warframes and weapons, and then have them complained about endlessly by players claiming things like Valkyr and Excalibur being overpowered. 

 

I don't think I'll be able to play anymore if things are going to be nerfed in favour of players not on the level of others like the OP and I. You know who else is REALLY strong in low-levels? Rhino. Is Rhino overpowered? Hell no he's not. 

 

Is Valkyr really strong in low-levels, but as soon as you start hitting enemies level 50+ you should start watching yourself, and the gameplay now falls down upon player skill, adaptability to situations, and knowledge? Yes. yes. yes. Sure she's invincible when she has Hysteria active. But it's not ranged attacks like Excalibur's EB, it's melee. And if she hops out of her ultimate after a while, if you're not careful where you do it, you'll die instantly. And Nullifiers? They're the bane of her existence. At least Excal can throw energy-blades at them until they die, and still remain in his Exalted Blade.

 

You people really need to look at the picture as a whole; one aspect of one ability does not make or break a Warframe. And just because you feel indestructible playing against level 15-20 enemies in an Endless Survival or Defense, does not mean it will translate into the same success at higher levels.

 

I can do T4 survival for an hour straight with Excalibur in his Exalted Blade, just like Valkyr. He may not be indestructable, but he can destroy Nullifiers. Valkyr is invincible during her ultimate, but can not face a Nullifier easily. And forget a level 100+ one.

 

Valkyr is fine. She may be overplayed right now, but it's perfectly warranted. She just got a big quality-of-life update, and an amazing skin. Once she's not played as much anymore, you will forget all of your own opinions about her being "overpowered".

These points have already been addressed before, valkyr can easily deal with nullifiers, and the damage taken in hysteria is non-existant with a max negative range build. Valkyr at lv 50+ enemies is still again nothing, you can go 2hrs+ solo with a valkyr, excal's EB is actually weaker in dmg potential vs Valkyr's hysteria, I've actually answered all this already in the earlier pages, allow me to re-quote myself.

 

 

MFW people bring up nullifiers as if it's a legitimate counter to valkyr...............

 

 

What's a nullifier guise? =D Oh that non-threatening paper thin grunt that almost any explosive type weapon can rip in one shot?

 

Nullifiers aren't a threat when the slightest breath can topple it. I don't know why but concealed explosives alone can one shot nullifiers.

 

Lets not forget Hysteria is now toggle-able you can just toggle it off for a quick sec, and nuke the nullifier with concealed explosives throwing stars of your choice/Explosive wep/melee weps of your choice then toggle Hysteria back on.

 

Also lol when ppl think hysteria's dmg is still bad

 

 

That's a lv 90^

In general all the points you mentioned were all addressed and explained how and why valkyr face no obstacles, please take the time to read the thread throughout the pages so you can understand why and so I don't need to constantly re-quote what was already discussed.

[Buzkyl]

It's very possible to just make it like Nyx absorb. Where getting hit drains it faster. 

 

With that change you'd be punished by letting it run out while you're near enemies because then you'd take all that damage. 

 

I'd prefer not to actually change what the ability does since we have Chroma and Excal

 

This is a very good way to balance it, the more damage she takes the more energy it will drain from her. Considering she has a base 100 energy pool it would be a fair downside s she can't constantly stay in god mode with reprocussions

[OfficerBeepsky]

This is a very good way to balance it, the more damage she takes the more energy it will drain from her. Considering she has a base 100 energy pool it would be a fair downside s she can't constantly stay in god mode with reprocussions

That is a terrible idea. It would have to be a flat per hit drain, scaling with efficiency, for it to be viable.

 

If the drain is based on damage dealt, she'd be easily overwhelmed, and back where she started.

[Djego27]

As I see it, overall the flat out "ingore all damage" mechanic is bad for the late game, since it makes even easymode prime look like something that is hard to play. Valkyr had this mechanic before the changes as well and it was next to never used by good valkyr players, for the simple reason that you did next to no damage with it and you could keep the frame alive at melee range at high levels by other means(what is still possible) and used it mostly for revives/life support activation or to get from A to B unharmed.

 

In my opinion damage should be reduced to what it was before the changes, the channeling itself is useful since you can end it any time(what was a issue before when you had to spend to much time in hysteria). The frame should support skilled melee for dps(what it actually can fairly well), not pressing 4 and mash E like so many people do now.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

It would have to be a flat per hit drain, scaling with efficiency, for it to be viable.

 

If the drain is based on damage dealt, she'd be easily overwhelmed, and back where she started.

 

It seems like a flat per hit drain would be the best way to go about this. then again, the main problem with a drain based on damage taken and not hits taken is the absurd damage output of "endgame" level enemies, and U18 will bring a complete enemy scaling rework, so it might not be as much of a problem after U18.

[MJ12]

You know, the screenshot people keep using as evidence of Hysteria's insane damage output seems to be quite misleading. With a potatoed melee weapon like the Dragon Nikana, loaded with a good but not great set of mods, in a T4S Heavy Gunners, Ancients, and other tough units were taking multiple hits and required 2-5 seconds each to kill around the 25 minute mark.

 

Melee weapons seem to have some very interesting critical interactions that occasionally lead to ridiculous crits. I think it happens when someone would be eligible for a finisher but isn't directly targeted-but the idea that Hysteria outputs "millions of damage per second" is based on a bug with melee weapon damage in general, not Hysteria having some insane sick-nasty damage.

 

This is very selective perception-people keep harping on the potential 440k crit and forget that her normal damage is a tiny fraction of that.

[Weltraumfred]

It seems like a flat per hit drain would be the best way to go about this. then again, the main problem with a drain based on damage taken and not hits taken is the absurd damage output of "endgame" level enemies, and U18 will bring a complete enemy scaling rework, so it might not be as much of a problem after U18.

 

You could also multiply the base drain of Hysteria. Like for every 2000* pts of damage she takes in Hysteria (mitigated by armor ... o hai warcry synergy) her drain per time increases by 100%*. Dunno how difficult that would be engine wise ...

 

* pulled those numbers totally out of my &#!, just for the example

 

You could also let her reduce the accumulated damage by exessive Life strike damage, as an incentive to stay engaged in melee