Let's Talk Trinity

[NessTV]

Nerfing Trinity will produce one of 3 possible results:

She will get only slight nerf and she will still "break" energy systems or whatever you think she breaks.

She will get nerfed enough to simply make people take 2 trinities into missions.

She will get nerfed into oblivion because restores are already more effective at restoring energy, just annoying to craft. It will be better to just take another CC frame.

 

Another nerf to Trinity won't solve anything because this game is being broken by general power creep and only after reducing the numbers you can bring out nerf banners.

[TheBrsrkr]

=====

This isn't what I thought I'd be doing with my morning, but sure.

Balance is a tradeoff, a (more-or-less) equivalent exchange. Agreed?

WoL disables a single target forever! It's OP!

Sure, except that if you can't kill that target normally, you sure as hell aren't killing it when it has x4 the HP.

You're just putting off killing it now so you can kill it later. Except that enemies will keep spawning. And past the mid levels, you'll be getting a minimum of 3 heavies per wave.

Also, incoming CC reduction for heavies (at very least). Bursas have 90% starting from level 0.

Disruptors give... I forget if 75% or 80%.

Nullifiers block targetting and dispel active WoL.

Roombas (or whatever they're called) dispel active abilities.

EV gives infinite energy! It's OP!

EV is one of the ways to break the Energy system. Breaking Energy is bad, agreed?

It also has limited range (remind me how DE make the game about dynamic action and disincentivise camping?), or eats up 2 more mod slots to counter Overextended's malus.

It also requires low duration - which means no Blessing - or a high powered weapon (to kill the target prematurely). And weapon damage falls off.

WoL + EV Gib any normal enemy! It's OP!

Yes, WoL + EV can kill pretty much any single target. In a game where quantity > quality.

And in which Nullifiers and Ancients exist.

I suggest drawing the comparison to sniper rifles.

For best results, it also requires a mod build that sacrifices durability via Blessing and Link. Oh look, a tradeoff.

Note: It can be done with a high duration build, but see WoL, above.

Note: The upside of the incoming CC reduction is that only high duration builds can pull off the combo. Low duration builds' WoL expires before the cast animation finishes.

Link is 75% DR! and CC immunity It's OP!

Sure, but only if A) You have a targettable enemy in range (which Narrow Minded counters - requiring all sorts of mod juggling) and B) have positive duration (which means trouble with your 1-2 punch).

It's also dispellable and selfish. and it conflicts with Blessing. See next.

Blessing is godmode! It's OP!

1) Not unless you're selfdamage.

1b) Uses a weapon slot.

2) Has a shorter duration than Link, meaning either you don't use your main self-defense ability, or risk having it screw up your self-damage with potentially fatally teamwide results.

3) Limited duration.

3b) Has built-in windows of teamwide vulnerability which are more than long enough to wipe a team.

3c) Requires constant attention.

4) Requires Quick Thinking. Which comes with a %self-stagger, which will get you and your team very very dead and which leaves you open to incoming fire which will zero your energy faster than you can say 'Ohshi~'.

5) Is dispellable.

P.S. Notice that no one's been talking about Blessing's healing?

Best results with a low duration Trinity means you are A) Squishy and B) need to be in line of sight and immobile for a second or so at a time, and means no durability for your team, either.

Best results for a high duration Trinity make EV unreliable.

Best results on a hybrid build depend on the build.

And all of this is trading a player for upkeep, because the constant casting animations, means they're not doing much else. Furthermore, this is a strenuous playstyle, as your your friendly neighborhood Trin needs to be keeping many mental balls in the air, which requires constant attention and focus.

Which is rather a step up from 'OG Blessing'.

tl;dr - You haven't defined a balance point.

That said, while each of her abilities is powerful, you have to choose between modding for defensive ease of use, support ease of use, offensive ease of use, or put in significant amounts of effort to try and juggle all those capabilities manually rather than through your stats.

Skill(/attention/focus/effort) in to power out.

Edit:

The question isn't whether or not her abilities are powerful. The question is whether the cost of using them (including the opportunity cost of using them) is equal enough (see re: Balance point) for the power they offer.

-spoilersnip, mobile sucks-

Honestly I don't care about the WoL/EV combo, because it's possibly the least efficient way to kill something even with high armor scaling. I have no idea why it's even a point. What I'll take you up on is the EV and Blessing parts.

EV having a "limited" range is a bit misleading. The base range of EV is 35m. Stretch alone puts this up to 50 or so. That's pretty damn far. Even accounting for the distance between Trinity, the enemy and potential allies, it's a massive range by all power standards. It also doesn't just provide energy, it provides excessive amounts of energy. Even without Blind Rage, which gets it's downside rendered irrelevant because you make more energy than you lose, you can get upwards of 60 energy per tick, for the entire team. More if you shoot the enemy before the timer runs down. Even when you run negative efficiency like I do, that's a lot of energy that you can keep up for quite a while. It does not "require" low duration; it's better with low duration. That isn't the same thing. It doesn't need to be minmaxed to oblivion to trivialize the energy system, and even then, it would STILL trivialize the energy system. It really doesn't matter how hard it is to break something, the point is that it's broken.

As for Blessing, come on. Needing a specific weapon to do it isn't really a downside. Lots of weapons can kill YOU and loads of enemies too. Requiring skill to do it? Not really a limitingfactor, is it? Some people can do it, some can't, but that doesn't change anything about the ability itself. And even if everything you said is true, is 99% damage reduction really something we want or need in Warframe? Because eventually, DE is going to HAVE to balance around it. How would you balance around an enemy doing 99% less damage than it should?

[vazerd68]

I don't mind an overpowered frame as long as it doesn't kills >80% of the ennemies.

 

OP, your post doesn't state HOW a trinity reduces your enjoyment at playing the game, which was never the case for me.

[Kolos1001]

I don't mind an overpowered frame as long as it doesn't kills >80% of the ennemies.

 

OP, your post doesn't state HOW a trinity reduces your enjoyment at playing the game, which was never the case for me.

Because "enjoyment" isn't the issue at hand. "Balance" Is. 

 

The mere fact you admit she's overpowered makes it a balance issue. 

[TheBrsrkr]

@W4ve:

Yes, if I take frame A to arbitrary point B with weapon C, it's not going to perform as it did 10 minutes before that point. But this is only possible due to the levels of anti cheese exponentially raising after that point. Because they cheese harder than you. Not to mention that 40 or so minutes before that point would probably bore you to tears. That is not the type of gameplay that should be encouraged, yet some actively encourage it.

Edited October 12, 2015 by TheBrsrkr

[Attel_Malagate]

Well of life:Used with energy vampire can kill almost anything in the game regardless of level. Exceptions include bosses, juggernauts, manics, nullifiers and things like that

 

Energy vampire:Supplies entire team(Including herself making her entire kit infinitely sustainable as long as there are enemies) with infinite energy. Single target CC. Armor ignoring damage. With mods can overshield team. 

 

Link:75% damage reduction(Equal to about 900 armor), CC invulnerability, Reflects damage.

 

Blessing: up to 99% damage reduction for the entire team. Heals entire team/companions and fully restores shields. 

 

So we have 

 

Infinite energy for entire team

Autokill nearly anything in the game regardless of level

immune to CC

Nearly immune to damage

Makes entire team nearly immune to damage

 

Now. If we are going to talk about nerfing something that breaks the game...Let's start with trinity. 

Said the guy who never played trinity ever

 

My trinity called, she is so sorry for being usefull and scale well she even promised to nerf herself so she is not usefull anymore

 

More seriously tho...

 

-Blessing and link are completely useless if you dont use a full duration build.

 

-EV' usefullness is greatly reduced using said duration build, an entire build is needed to make it efficient (negative duration, making her 3 and 4 useless).

 

-the 1-2 "combo" is a meme, noone is this game is using it, and if you do, you are in competition with my 90 year old grandma for the slowest player in this game because as you aparently never used this combo, it takes 2 combos to do the trick, unloading a boltor prime clip or an antimater drop will do the trick much faster.

 

-Trinity has literaly no efficient way to deal damage.

 

-The 99% damage reduction needs her to take damages,and with the damage scaling, you can get destroyed really quickly as even the 75% link is not enough to keep you alive and even a QT+ primed flow combo can't hold long.

 

-She perfectly fullfill the support role she was suposed to play as she brings something valuable to the team.

 

Trinity has been nerfed a long time ago and is fine now, just look at how many players are using her, I was waithing for the prime for a LONG time as someone who mains her, and I'd like to see the frame noone complained about in month stay as she is.

 

Your post is a complete clickbait, and poeple like you are bringing the forums down.

[Kolos1001]

Said the guy who never played trinity ever

Assumption and a very unnecessary comment.

 

My trinity called, she is so sorry for being usefull and scale well she even promised to nerf herself so she is not usefull anymore

Even less necessary. You haven't actually contributed anything yet. 

 

-Blessing and link are completely useless if you dont use a full duration build.

Simply false. 

 

-EV' usefullness is greatly reduced using said duration build, an entire build is needed to make it efficient (negative duration, making her 3 and 4 useless).

Again simply false. It's efficient with very few mods. You most definitely do not need an entire build for it. 

 

-the 1-2 "combo" is a meme, noone is this game is using it, and if you do, you are in competition with my 90 year old grandma for the slowest player in this game because as you aparently never used this combo, it takes 2 combos to do the trick, unloading a boltor prime clip or an antimater drop will do the trick much faster.

I'm saying it's available. And it's actually very useful for capture missions even though they are easy in the first place. 

 

-Trinity has literaly no efficient way to deal damage.

 Bring a weapon. Weapons do damage. That's what they are there for. With link and 99% reduction you can kill things with a spoon with little to no risk. 

 

-The 99% damage reduction needs her to take damages,and with the damage scaling, you can get destroyed really quickly as even the 75% link is not enough to keep you alive and even a QT+ primed flow combo can't hold long.

Stand behind cover. Blessing does not have a range factor so you can be anywhere on the map. 

 

-She perfectly fullfill the support role she was suposed to play as she brings something valuable to the team.

She gives the team infinite energy and near infinite survivability. The entire team. That's not just "valuable" That's absolutely gamebreaking. 

 

Trinity has been nerfed a long time ago and is fine now, just look at how many players are using her, I was waithing for the prime for a LONG time as someone who mains her, and I'd like to see the frame noone complained about in month stay as she is.

Saying "she's fine now" Doesn't automatically make it true. 

[VampirePirate]

 

Pretty sure she used to be 100% damage reduction which is like day and night different from 80%

I was talking about the other stuff you said, not the 100% verses 80%. The fact that you did not know what I meant shows me that you know little about what's going on.

 

Also there are a ton of things you are not considering about Trinity.  I don't need to list them because the community has already done that here.

Edited October 11, 2015 by VampirePirate

[Attel_Malagate]

Assumption and a very unnecessary comment.

Even less necessary. You haven't actually contributed anything yet.

Simply false.

Again simply false. It's efficient with very few mods. You most definitely do not need an entire build for it.

I'm saying it's available. And it's actually very useful for capture missions even though they are easy in the first place.

Bring a weapon. Weapons do damage. That's what they are there for. With link and 99% reduction you can kill things with a spoon with little to no risk.

Stand behind cover. Blessing does not have a range factor so you can be anywhere on the map.

She gives the team infinite energy and near infinite survivability. The entire team. That's not just "valuable" That's absolutely gamebreaking.

Saying "she's fine now" Doesn't automatically make it true.

 

 

I'll bite

 

=>Assumption and a very unnecessary comment.

-But most likely true seeing the magnitude of your ignorence of the most basic trinity mechanics

 

 

=>Even less necessary. You haven't actually contributed anything yet.

 

-what is a joke

 

 

=>Simply false.

 

-enjoy your two and a half second of damage reduction, do it, i wont juge

 

 

=>Again simply false. It's efficient with very few mods. You most definitely do not need an entire build for it.

-all the "composite builds of the world simply wont be as usefull, stop denying a fact: it's either EV or link and blessing

 

 

=>I'm saying it's available. And it's actually very useful for capture missions even though they are easy in the first place.

 

-still a meme, a super sutuational ability at best, making a topic about it is just whining about details

 

 

=>Bring a weapon. Weapons do damage. That's what they are there for. With link and 99% reduction you can kill things with a spoon with little to no risk.

 

-I dont see your point, trinity is not a damage dealer, she needs something to compensate

 

 

=>Stand behind cover. Blessing does not have a range factor so you can be anywhere on the map.

-and Valkyr can stay perma invul all day, loki can 2 and 4 all day, nova doesn't even need it because her 4 make any defensive ability unnecessary, thoose mechnics are all part of the game, stop ruining my fun for you "balance" game are made to have fun, and pve games dont need that kind of 'balance"

 

 

=>She gives the team infinite energy and near infinite survivability. The entire team. That's not just "valuable" That's absolutely gamebreaking.

-The problem here is the enemy scaling, not her, a Limbo will do it while providing the same level of defence as a Frost and energy restaures exist for a reason, and if you nerfed her, what would be the replacement ?

 

=>Saying "she's fine now" Doesn't automatically make it true.

 

-Saying she is broken doesn't automaticaly make it true

try harder

Edited October 11, 2015 by nononimous

[TheBrsrkr]

I'll bite

-But most likely true seeing the magnitude of your ignorence of the most basic trinity mechanics

-what is a joke

-enjoy your two and a half second of damage reduction, do it, i wont juge

-all the "composite builds of the world simply wont be as usefull, stop denying a fact: it's either EV or link and blessing

-still a meme, a super sutuational ability at best, making a topic about it is just whining about details

-and Valkyr can stay perma invul all day, loki can 2 and 4 all day, nova doesn't even need it because her 4 make any defensive ability unnecessary, thoose mechnics are all part of the game, stop ruining my fun for you "balance" game are made to have fun, and pve games dont need that kind of 'balance"

-The problem here is the enemy scaling, not her, a Limbo will do it while providing the same level of defence as a Frost and energy restaures exist for a reason, and if you nerfed her, what would be the replacement ?

-Saying she is broken doesn't automaticaly make it true

try harder

You shouldn't have.

[Kolos1001]

I'll bite

-But most likely true seeing the magnitude of your ignorence of the most basic trinity mechanics

-what is a joke

-enjoy your two and a half second of damage reduction, do it, i wont juge

-all the "composite builds of the world simply wont be as usefull, stop denying a fact: it's either EV or link and blessing

-still a meme, a super sutuational ability at best, making a topic about it is just whining about details

-and Valkyr can stay perma invul all day, loki can 2 and 4 all day, nova doesn't even need it because her 4 make any defensive ability unnecessary, thoose mechnics are all part of the game, stop ruining my fun for you "balance" game are made to have fun, and pve games dont need that kind of 'balance"

-The problem here is the enemy scaling, not her, a Limbo will do it while providing the same level of defence as a Frost and energy restaures exist for a reason, and if you nerfed her, what would be the replacement ?

-Saying she is broken doesn't automaticaly make it true

try harder

I'll ignore the blatantly toxic portions....so everything. 

[FrostXeno]

Apparently a person actively trying to discuss the topic is a troll if he doesn't agree with your opinion.

Anyway on topic, one of the main issues with having infinite energy and almost godmode is that DE would have to design their game around it. The and you can plainly see they did so with nightmare raid with having horrible energy draining pads that made trinity nearly a requirement. If de has to balance around trinities capabilities in high end content it would saturate it full of unfun energy draining ability nullifying crap. Please consider that.

As for the team restores as a replacement, it is also clear that team restores needs a actual limits to its usage as well. Im sure malot more people think trinity is a bit over powered but haven't said a thing knowing how toxic the community response would be.

However i dont agree with a straight nerf while her current state she is too strong and boring. It would be best if she gets a rework on her abilities that makes her more engaging and interesting to play.

[-dicht.Amducias-]

Well of life:Used with energy vampire can kill almost anything in the game regardless of level. Exceptions include bosses, juggernauts, manics, nullifiers and things like that

Energy vampire:Supplies entire team(Including herself making her entire kit infinitely sustainable as long as there are enemies) with infinite energy. Single target CC. Armor ignoring damage. With mods can overshield team.

Link:75% damage reduction(Equal to about 900 armor), CC invulnerability, Reflects damage.

Blessing: up to 99% damage reduction for the entire team. Heals entire team/companions and fully restores shields.

So we have

Infinite energy for entire team

Autokill nearly anything in the game regardless of level

immune to CC

Nearly immune to damage

Makes entire team nearly immune to damage

Now. If we are going to talk about nerfing something that breaks the game...Let's start with trinity.

1. You dont get the mod system, you do either one of these things, not all of them as trinity

2. Nerfs help you in which way? Trinity is fine, buff the other frames instead and she is a support frame let her be good at what she is supposed to do..

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

 Nerfs help you in which way? Trinity is fine, buff the other frames instead and she is a support frame let her be good at what she is supposed to do..

 

Is making game mechanics redundant and completely removing the purpose of even playing a video game what Trinity is supposed to do? If so, she's doing a fine job of it.

[-dicht.Amducias-]

To everyone thinking Trinitys Damage Reduction is broken:

1. Go to the Simulacrum.

2. Spawn 2 lvl100 Corpus Techs.

3. Get a 99% blessing.

4. Let them shoot you.

5. Tell me if the damage reduction or the enemy scaling is the real problem.

[Kolos1001]

1. You dont get the mod system, you do either one of these things, not all of them as trinity

2. Nerfs help you in which way? Trinity is fine, buff the other frames instead and she is a support frame let her be good at what she is supposed to do..

People min max each specific build because they run 2 trinities in a team...like in raids...or they run EV because blessing isn't necessary when your entire team has max energy 100% of the time. (EV is the root of all the problems)

 

Nerfs push the game towards a balanced state where some things are actually challenging without having to go 3 hours in endless missions to get to a point where you feel any threat at all. 

 

 

4. Let them shoot you.

Well I see your problem.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Kolos1001

[-dicht.Amducias-]

Is making game mechanics redundant and completely removing the purpose of even playing a video game what Trinity is supposed to do? If so, she's doing a fine job of it.

Yes if u run around at lvl50 enemies xD trinitys blessing build isnt supposed to serve for these purposes

[-dicht.Amducias-]

People min max each specific build because they run 2 trinities in a team...like in raids...or they run EV because blessing isn't necessary when your entire team has max energy 100% of the time. (EV is the root of all the problems)

Nerfs push the game towards a balanced state where some things are actually challenging without having to go 3 hours in endless missions to get to a point where you feel any threat at all.

Well I see your problem.

No they dont.. if DE would balance the game they would balance out the modding system, enemy scaling, the grind etc. Nerfing the frames is total nonsense without addressing the mentioned mechanics

[Attel_Malagate]

 

People min max each specific build because they run 2 trinities in a team...like in raids...or they run EV because blessing isn't necessary when your entire team has max energy 100% of the time. (EV is the root of all the problems)

 

Nerfs push the game towards a balanced state where some things are actually challenging without having to go 3 hours in endless missions to get to a point where you feel any threat at all. 

 

 

Well I see your problem.

 

U18 is coming,and with u 18 the "nuke" of scaling and damage, so talking aboutit now is irrelevent, at least try to wait for the incoming changes before crying for a nerf

[-dicht.Amducias-]

Well I see your problem.

This is just to show how broken enemy scaling is and why the bless is balanced in high levels, they literally 1 shot you with a full-auto gun, with a 99% blessing they need 6-7 shots which is totally ridiculous

[Kolos1001]

Yes if u run around at lvl50 enemies xD trinitys blessing build isnt supposed to serve for these purposes

You realize blessing trivializes the vast majority of the game right?

Entire star chart

All void missions outside endless

Raids

Boss battles

nightmare mode

Endless missions up to 2 hours. 

 

So basically blessing makes 99% of the game trivial. Which is why they nerfed blessing in the first place. 

 

 

This is just to show how broken enemy scaling is and why the bless is balanced in high levels, they literally 1 shot you with a full-auto gun, with a 99% blessing they need 6-7 shots which is totally ridiculous

I recently was able to tank raid manics with a loki frame because of blessing. 

 

The problem is not enemy scaling the problem is it takes 2 hours in an endless mission for there to be any challenge because blessing is so broken.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Kolos1001

[-dicht.Amducias-]

You realize blessing trivializes the vast majority of the game right?

Entire star chart

All void missions outside endless

Raids

Boss battles

nightmare mode

Endless missions up to 2 hours.

So basically blessing makes 99% of the game trivial. Which is why they nerfed blessing in the first place.

Every content of warframe is trivial with or without bless and this is not because of the warframe powers.. in first place it is because of the whole enemy scaling and their AI

[Volume]

Sure, she's broken, but no one cares, too busy clearing entire rooms with other frames, the one thing that she's not good at, that other frames are good at, that gives people XP and gets missions done faster, which is what people need. 95% of the content does not need or want trinity, while the other 5% she is nearly REQUIRED for (raids, for example, unless you're going Oberon renewal lols)

[-dicht.Amducias-]

I recently was able to tank raid manics with a loki frame because of blessing.

The problem is not enemy scaling the problem is it takes 2 hours in an endless mission for there to be any challenge because blessing is so broken.

I do most missions and long endless missions without blessing lol, there is totally no point here, nerfing blessing and ev will just put another frame into the garbage bin and we will still have our fun doing endless missions (1.2k energy pads)

[Kolos1001]

Every content of warframe is trivial with or without bless and this is not because of the warframe powers.. in first place it is because of the whole enemy scaling and their AI

The problem is blessing along with EV are on the same level as a game exploit. 

 

That's why they nerfed pull

That's why they introduced nullifiers

That's why they nerfed pull again

I'm guessing that's why they nerfed mesa