Petrify Vs Radial Blind....

[ZoneDymo]

So while I like Atlas its pretty clear he needs some more buffs/changes all around.

Whoever this has to be the most glaring issue, his 3rd, Petrify.

 

I mean just look at these stats alone:

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Petrify

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Radial_Blind

 

 

Radial Blind

- Hits all around Excalibur,

- Is instantaneous 

- Opens up enemies to finisher damage,

- Hits every enemy equally.

 

 

Petrify,

- Only affects those aimed at

- Takes time (even longer depending on enemies distance) which both just simply makes it take more time but also opens up Atlas to attack,

- Does not aid in killing enemies faster whatsoever (Frosts freezing is instant AND reduces enemies armor)

- Takes longer on bigger enemies

 

The only benefit Petrify has is that it lasts 5 seconds longer by default......yay......

 

 

Im sure everyone and their mother can see something does not seem quite fair.

[PsiWarp]

You forgot to mention that Petrified enemies are completely vulnerable and immobile once the effect takes place, for the whole duration. While Radial Blind stuns for only 2~3 seconds, then everything wanders around like blind sheep but can retaliate albeit helplessly.

[bubbabenali]

vs Chaos...

Well Atlas is a straight in your face brawler CC should not be his thing.

Petrify is still a bit lacklustre though.

[VKhaun]

Why are we comparing to radial blind? o.O

[ZoneDymo]

You forgot to mention that Petrified enemies are completely vulnerable and immobile once the effect takes place, for the whole duration. While Radial Blind stuns for only 2~3 seconds, then everything wanders around like blind sheep but can retaliate albeit helplessly.

 

Retaliate albeit helplessly...

Gotta explain that one to me.

 

Also completely vulnerable, like I said there is no reduction in anything, bombards or whatever still can take all they could normally.

You would think turning them to stone would make something brittle or something

 

vs Chaos...

Well Atlas is a straight in your face brawler CC should not be his thing.

Petrify is still a bit lacklustre though.

 

Well with that opinion I take it you want a complete rework/change of what his 3rd is now correct?

 

Why are we comparing to radial blind? o.O

 

Why not?

Both temporary (which is one of my issues, imo the stone should be permanent) immobilize enemies.

What else would I compare it to? (I did mention Frost in there as well btw).

[PsiWarp]

Retaliate albeit helplessly...

Gotta explain that one to me.

 

Also completely vulnerable, like I said there is no reduction in anything, bombards or whatever still can take all they could normally.

You would think turning them to stone would make something brittle or something

 

Not sure if you noticed before if you played Excalibur... blinded enemies can, you know, move and shoot at where they last hear noise from gunfire and such.

 

Completely vulnerable... as in they can't, move and shoot, at all.

 

Why not?

Both temporary (which is one of my issues, imo the stone should be permanent) immobilize enemies.

What else would I compare it to? (I did mention Frost in there as well btw).

 

Also, you want Petrify to be permanent? How is that even a fair challenge? You do realize Avalanche is an ultimate ability costing 100 energy. Its effect is bound to be worlds apart from a 3rd ability?

[ZoneDymo]

Not sure if you noticed before if you played Excalibur... blinded enemies can, you know, move and shoot at where they last hear noise from gunfire and such.

 

Completely vulnerable... as in they can't, move and shoot, at all.

 

 

Also, you want Petrify to be permanent? How is that even a fair challenge? You do realize Avalanche is an ultimate ability costing 100 energy. Its effect is bound to be worlds apart from a 3rd ability?

 

Its more the contradiction, retaliate but helplessly, that I wanted to point out as odd.

And Vulnerable... honestly its hardly more vulnerable then if you just stunlock them in melee, again its barely, if not ever worth it going through the effort and/or time to turn them into stone, might as well just attack them and get it over with.

With an armor reduction or something it would atleast speed up the process a bit.

 

Sure Avalanche is an ultimate but when were those ever in balance?

Nekros his second ability also reduces armor, by 20%. 

Avalance reduces armor by 40%

Sooo would it be that crazy to ask that Atlas his 3rd with all the negatives/requirements of it, reduces armor by, oh lets say, 30%?

 

I would also like to mention that Radial Blind is a 2nd ability and Petrify a 3rd.

With all the benefits Radial Blind has over Petrify that is just some more food for thought.

 

Oh and I just did take a swing at Excalibur again just to confirm and yeah no retaliation at all man...

I cast radial blind and the enemies just stand there and do jack sh*t until the ability is over.

Edited October 12, 2015 by ZoneDymo

[NinthAria]

Petrify takes effect instantly if you take into account that enemies are stuck flinching once the effect begins. It's also cheaper. Also, Atlas and Excalibur are different warframes with different power kits, strengths, and weaknesses, so comparing two of their abilities that share a vague similarity between them doesn't really yield any useful information.

 

It would be nice if there were some additional effect against fully petrified enemies, like being able to shatter them with physics effects a la frozen enemies, but Atlas is already pretty strong after the recent buffs and Petrify itself isn't really weak enough that it's not worth using, so I'm not too torn up about it.

[VKhaun]

Why not?

Both temporary (which is one of my issues, imo the stone should be permanent) immobilize enemies.

What else would I compare it to? (I did mention Frost in there as well btw).

 

As there is no other channeled cone CC skill I don't think it can be balanced very well through comparison to abilities used in totally different ways... You're inviting a lot of other arguments that may not be constructive by trying to shove the square peg through the round hole.

 

IMO, the way you have to stop using weapons strongly implies that it's meant as a team support skill. Something you would do while others shoot at the enemies, or to buy time while your team handles something going on somewhere else rather than a personal giant AoE CC skill to be used on the fly.

Edited October 12, 2015 by VKhaun

[ZoneDymo]

Petrify takes effect instantly if you take into account that enemies are stuck flinching once the effect begins. It's also cheaper. Also, Atlas and Excalibur are different warframes with different power kits, strengths, and weaknesses, so comparing two of their abilities that share a vague similarity between them doesn't really yield any useful information.

 

It would be nice if there were some additional effect against fully petrified enemies, like being able to shatter them with physics effects a la frozen enemies, but Atlas is already pretty strong after the recent buffs and Petrify itself isn't really weak enough that it's not worth using, so I'm not too torn up about it.

 

With the argument that they are different warframes we might as well throw all balance out the window, everything is a different warframe/weapon/ability to another so we cannot compare anything so everything stands on its own so tis all balanced?

I see big issues with that.

 

And really, vague similarities.... both impair enemies in movement and ability in pretty much exactly the same way, the only differences are the once I mentioned which all point towards benefits for Excalibur.

 

Petrify is not weak enough? how on earth could it be any weaker... it does not do any damage nor increase any damage done, it just prolongs the game by spending time "freezing" them in place....

 

 

As there is no other channeled cone CC skill I don't think it can be balanced very well through comparison to abilities used in totally different ways... You're inviting a lot of other arguments that may not be constructive by trying to shove the square peg through the round hole.

 

IMO, the way you have to stop using weapons strongly implies that it's meant as a team support skill. Something you would do while others shoot at the enemies, or to buy time while your team handles something going on somewhere else rather than a personal giant AoE CC skill to be used on the fly.

 

Man in your mind abilities really have to be one on one for you to be able to compare them huh?

I bet when both were channeled cone cc skills you would argue you cannot compare them because they do not both use exactly the same energy and one is the 2nd abiltiy and the other the 3rd and one is from Excalibur and the other from Atlas so we cannot compare.....

 

You are the one seeing it as a square peg and a round hole, I see them having the same role, temporary immobilize the enemy giving you some time to safetly do some damage or heal an ally.

Exept one of the two has massive advantages over the other making it unbalanced.

 

"implies its meant as a team support skill", oh right, because Radial Blind isnt right? because allies cannot take advantage of those frozen in place enemies and do finisher damage on them....come on man, use that brain.

How you cannot see its broken that a warframe would be dependent on others with an ability is beyond me, I dare you to name one warframe that has that limitation.

Even Trinity which is support frame extraordinaire with her abilities still also casts them all on/for herself keeping herself alive with them as well making her a very good (one of the best) Solo play frame.

"or to buy time while your team handles something going on somewhere els"

Because radial blind does not do that right? and just killing the enemies outright does not buy even more time right?

 

Thats always a thing tbh, what point is Rhino's ultimate, sending enemies flying and suspended in the air so you can get to some easy killing, when you have a saryn that does not bother with any of that and just outright kills them all and moves on with one move?

 

No matter how you slice it, Radial Blind is a superior version of Petrify.

Name me one thing apart from the already mentioned 5 second time bonus that makes Petrify better.

[NinthAria]

With the argument that they are different warframes we might as well throw all balance out the window, everything is a different warframe/weapon/ability to another so we cannot compare anything so everything stands on its own so tis all balanced?

I see big issues with that.

 

And really, vague similarities.... both impair enemies in movement and ability in pretty much exactly the same way, the only differences are the once I mentioned which all point towards benefits for Excalibur.

 

Petrify is not weak enough? how on earth could it be any weaker... it does not do any damage nor increase any damage done, it just prolongs the game by spending time "freezing" them in place....

 

Comparing abilities in a vacuum doesn't prove a whole lot because there's so many other factors that go into balance, including (but not limited to) the rest of their abilities, base stats, which abilities scale and how, and the intended aesthetic and gameplay fantasy behind each frame. An ability on one frame might be worse in some ways than a similar ability on another frame, but that frame might have other strengths that offset it. Radial Blind is, by and large, a superior CC to Petrify; certainly it's easier to use, that much can't be argued with. But Atlas is also a more durable frame than Excalibur, so he needs it less, and if you want to reverse the comparison, you could argue Landslide is a far superior version of Slash Dash.

 

The shorter version: imbalance between two abilities doesn't necessarily create an imbalance between their respective frames.

 

Also I already mentioned a way in which Petrify has an edge of Radial Blind: it's cheaper. Significantly so. I think Petrify can also go through walls, but I need to test that further.

[RevenantPrime]

It should be reworked to be an activated ability that turns enemies into stone instantaneously making them unable to move or attack whilealso giving them a massive armour boost (they're stone now).

 

That way it can be useful as a CC ability (for example to petrify one corridor so you can take care of the other in peace without chargers ganwing at your back and then finish off the first when when they "thaw"), not be a waste of time and yet not be a cheesy "everything is now a sitting duck waiting to be killed" ability.

[ZoneDymo]

Comparing abilities in a vacuum doesn't prove a whole lot because there's so many other factors that go into balance, including (but not limited to) the rest of their abilities, base stats, which abilities scale and how, and the intended aesthetic and gameplay fantasy behind each frame. An ability on one frame might be worse in some ways than a similar ability on another frame, but that frame might have other strengths that offset it. Radial Blind is, by and large, a superior CC to Petrify; certainly it's easier to use, that much can't be argued with. But Atlas is also a more durable frame than Excalibur, so he needs it less, and if you want to reverse the comparison, you could argue Landslide is a far superior version of Slash Dash.

 

The shorter version: imbalance between two abilities doesn't necessarily create an imbalance between their respective frames.

 

Also I already mentioned a way in which Petrify has an edge of Radial Blind: it's cheaper. Significantly so. I think Petrify can also go through walls, but I need to test that further.

 

Slash dash compensates for perhaps not being as good as Landslide with it synergizing really well with Exalted blade, which yes might be the ultimate but only costs 25 to activate.

What synergy to we have with Petrify? hell I could think of something right now (if only I was a DE dev right?), could make it so that Petrified enemies could be send sliding by both Landslide and attacks by the Rumblers, the mechanics are already in the game with Frost's recent update, sliding enemies would take damage hitting walls and would be able to knock down enemies in their path,

 

Ok petrify is indeed cheaper, but what do you get for that?

Honestly apart from the novelty, when do you use Petrfy and why? Radial Blind I would always use, finisher damage is immensely strong, and its all around you so you can also cast it to quickly safe yourself or a friend.

Non of that can be said for Petrify, it really serves as is no purpose, you can use it, but it might as well be super jump, I can think up scenarios where that would be "pretty kewl" to have as well, does not mean its an actual valid move.

 

The contrast between these moves is immense, no so for Slash Dash and Landslide.

And lets also not forget we had to give feedback before landslide was even improved by making use of mods, (something Slash Dash was already doing).

So here I am, pointing out some massive inequalities that will hopefully lead towards Petrify becoming something actually worth using.

 

I already suggested on many a topic, adding the ability to permanently turning enemies to stone (Which would obviously take longer then it does now) could introduce interesting mechanics where you can use enemies to block of other enemies and hinder movement and fire.

Edited October 12, 2015 by ZoneDymo

[NinthAria]

Excalibur didn't exactly spring into existence the way he is today either. Slash Dash was garbage for years. And I guarantee you the arguments that persuaded DE were framed around the functions and mechanics of the ability itself (along with his other ones), not how his abilities compared to other warframes' abilities. If the feedback you're going for is "Petrify feels lackluster because (insert reasons)," then focus on that. Drawing a comparison in a vacuum to another ability just muddies the issue.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you on the issue of Petrify being (slightly) buffed, I'm saying your logic is flawed.

[AnonymousArmadillo]

I enjoy killing lv 95 units in the simulacrum with atlas and it's super easy because of petrify. It's a 1-3 second stun before the petrification and the freeze time without mods is already 20 seconds which is insane for a complete freeze. The cone like shape means that if you use your position you can group enemies together and then hit multiple at once with landslide combos. 

 

The fact that he is open for attacks during cast is not that much of a problem. He is immune to knockdowns, has enough armor to survive a few hits and has access to 2 rag-dolling indestructible decoys. It is more high-risk, high reward.

[VKhaun]

Man in your mind abilities really have to be one on one for you to be able to compare them huh?

Yeah, exactly. And they're clearly like, identical powers.

 

I'll leave you alone about it. Sorry.

 

[ZoneDymo]

It should be reworked to be an activated ability that turns enemies into stone instantaneously making them unable to move or attack whilealso giving them a massive armour boost (they're stone now).

 

That way it can be useful as a CC ability (for example to petrify one corridor so you can take care of the other in peace without chargers ganwing at your back and then finish off the first when when they "thaw"), not be a waste of time and yet not be a cheesy "everything is now a sitting duck waiting to be killed" ability.

 

I like this idea. Enemies unable to move, literally a human shield, but also buffed in armor to make them not easy to kill.

One downside would be potential (unintentional) trolling (turning all enemies to stone and let the match take forever)

And we would need the added option of walking (preferably rolling) through Petrified enemies as otherwise they could block your way.

[weezedog]

I agree, compared to other CC abi!ities, petrify is really bad. It needs to petrify instantly and at the full range. Currently, even with stretch equipped, Petrify doesn't even work against heavies beyond 10m, all it does is stun then for a couple seconds then doesn't do anything else. 

[Machayna]

One thing I've thought would be a good offset is to give atlas a damage reduction while casting this.  That way it's not just him sitting there taking a beating while waiting for things to petrify.

[weezedog]

Well, since you have to be so close for petrify to work on heavies, at that point there is absolutely 0 reason to use petrify over landslide. Landslide will either kill them or cc them. Landslide is absolutely a better ability to use close range. Petrify's purpose should be to cc long range targets that is out of range of landslide. And it just doesn't work as a long range ability right now. 

[Thrymm]

vs Chaos...

Well Atlas is a straight in your face brawler CC should not be his thing.

Petrify is still a bit lacklustre though.

While I agree that it is kind of a lackluster ability, this whole "Atlas is brawler" thing is really not the way DE should have gone about describing him.  He is, oddly enough(and why I quoted this post) very much a CC frame.

 

Landslide does great damage, sure, but what it doesn't kill it ragdolls.....CC

 

Tectonics prevents damage from a direction and when released has a knockdown....CC

 

Petrify does nothing but stagger and stun targets, it's direct CC

 

Rumblers draw fire away from Atlas(and teammates), and are also capable of.....CC

 

Everything he does is CC, and even his passive is anti-CC for himself.  His only "brawler" attribute, in fact, is his landslide punch itself.

 

But with all that said, I've been playing Atlas all weekend and frankly am not using petrify much at all, and when I do it's a deliberate thing just to make sure I push the button once in awhile.  There is virtually never enough small targets on-screen to justify it over just killing them, and it all but doesn't work on heavy targets, a place that I might actually want a simple CC like this.

 

In my opinion, quadruple(or quintuple, or whatever) the cost and allow Atlas to use weapons while doing it.  This would fix the problem with it not being useful on enemies I could just kill anyway because I'd be able to target the heavies while simultaneously dispersing CC to the lighter units.  I think it's be overpowered this way at its current cost, hence the suggestion to increase it, but at that point it'd be pretty useful, in my opinion.