IANOBW Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 (edited) NOTE: Title amended, sorry for the confusion. To those just coming to the topic, and wondering what's going on, I'll try to explain how the discussion has evolved. The topic started with a discussion about the complete removal of Arcane Helmets. (The reasoning behind can be seen below he line, in the original post) In my opinion, any content in this game that would alter builds and optimise gameplay should be accessible to all players, old and new. Originally, I proposed that maybe the Arcane Helmets should instead be completely removed, but also give players who had them some form of compensation. The intention for this would be to put all players at the same advantage. Since removing them is far too radical a change, and after a lot of communication and feedback, it seems that bringing them back into the game via events and the such is a much better idea, so that new players can gain these benefits like us veterans can. This way, all players can have an equal opportunity. Another alternative suggested would be to reintegrate the original arcane effects into new arcanes, obtainable in future raids, with some slightly tweaked stats. This would mean that older player would have access to the fully ranked arcane effects on their helmets, but it would also give players the opportunity to obtain them from raids. Nobody should feel as if they "missed out" on this content, as the helmets were accessible through timed mission alerts in the past. A re-circulation of the Arcane helmets into events, much like how old event weapons are being treated, may be a fair way for newer players to obtain them. And, just as promised, here is the original post. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OP As title reads. The old Arcane helmets should have gone a long time ago. Back then, I'm glad they didn't go, but now, it's become more and more apparent that their presence is kinda harming the game. It's not a huge issue, but the way I see it is: - Newer players are at a disadvantage, not having access to these helmets without forking out - Most Arcane helmets have negligible downsides, whilst having perks that are definitly worth having (e.g. Arcane Pendragon, Arcane Vanguard, Arcane Aura, etc.) - Arcane helmets have an effect on player's decision on whether to make their frame look visually more appealing or to function better in game If it were down to me, I'd just outright get rid of them and give out refunds for the players who had them, myself included. I don't particularly mind what kind of refund that would be, but anything would be better at this rate. I want to use my alternate stylised helmets, and by all means I do use them. But being constantly reminded that my frame would be more powerful if I just wore the uglier helmet sucks a lot. One of the perks of this game is its crazy amounts of customisation. If old Arcane Helmets impede on that trait, I say they should be "demoted" to their statless counterparts. And if DE do plan on giving out some kind of compensation, they definitely should not let the community know what kind of compensation that would be, lest we get another situation like the time Steel Charge was nerfed. Edited October 18, 2015 by IANOBW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xhos Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 We went over this a hundred times, you can't get pregnant using the toilet at the mall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-S-O--Sephiroth-Crescent Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 Well de CAN NOT do that as how to compensate it? some players have maybe bought them for a high ammount of plat. And if we are at the thing of "unfair" things... isnt it unfair that some players have: -excalP? -SnipetronVandal? -Primed Chamber? -ANY event Weapon I DONT HAVE? NO its not its a GAME if you want something so badly there will be one player that is willing it to sell for the "right" ammount of plat. Just my opinnion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnbeBleeder Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 I see it as an exclusive item now. Technically speaking as said above, new players are at a disadvantage already since they have a fraction of the event weapons or none at alla nd will never get to super high ranks as fast as older players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nighttide77 Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 But being constantly reminded that my frame would be more powerful if I just wore the uglier helmet sucks a lot. Uh, OP, this doesn't give a lot of credit to your argument, and even casts a negative image upon yourself. I don't have a problem with arcane helms as they are and how they may not entirely match the visual of the body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shifted Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 I'd love to have the Arcanes (both the old exclusive ones and the new ones dropping from raids) completely separated from cosmetics. Any type of cosmetic ties with stats is bad for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PickleMonster21 Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 I disagree with this as I could not care less about my appearance, or anyone else's for that matter. I use all the Arcane helmets for the stats I want (I own every Arcane helmet, but I literally only use half of them. I also made an effort to collect every single stateless helmet so really, I use 1/4 of my helmets). I'm one of those people that prefer the the stats over appearance because appearance doesn't matter when I'm too busy killing things for to worry about how I look. That would be like going onto a battlefield and saying "Hey guys, hold up. I don't think I want the picture of the skull on my helmet today. Hold on one sec. I'm gonna go back and change it out for the one with the ghost". Like, no one cares. Once you're out there, you forget about it anyway. I'd just prefer something that would give me an advantage out there, instead of picking and choosing a silly helmet that looks better in the customisation screen. To go one step further, use Frames for their abilities. If I'm needed to fill a role, I'll do it. I may look as bad as a Saryn, or as lanky as a Loki, but if I need to do a role, I'll choose a Frame that can deliver. Instead of being like "LOKIMASTERRACE is my favourite Frame so I'll take him to disarm instead of taking Rhino to hold enemies in stasis", or "instead of Nekros to Desecrate my enemies". If I'm going to use a Frame, I'm going to use it because I need to, and then I'm going to maximise hit kit. Arcane helmets help me do that. So again, I disagree with what you've said about completely removing Arcane helmets, simply because I'm Stats > Cosmetics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrsrkr Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 I disagree. In fact, I hoped the arcanes of today would be MORE like the arcanes of beforr simply because none of them are actually bad. 25% sprint speed is a boon on any frame, and with them being removable now, can lead to all sorts of crazy builds. Except the efficiency one. We don't need that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgax Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 (edited) I cannot imagine the refund i need for not being salty about removal , i don't raid i missed my windows of getting into them, hence no arcane enchantments for me. Platinum? Feels underwhelming and shows lack of imagination (kind of like money for birthday) 10x enchantment of same type: what was the point of this again? Edited October 17, 2015 by Morgax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IANOBW Posted October 17, 2015 Author Share Posted October 17, 2015 Well de CAN NOT do that as how to compensate it? some players have maybe bought them for a high ammount of plat. And if we are at the thing of "unfair" things... isnt it unfair that some players have: -excalP? -SnipetronVandal? -Primed Chamber? -ANY event Weapon I DONT HAVE? NO its not its a GAME if you want something so badly there will be one player that is willing it to sell for the "right" ammount of plat. Just my opinnion DE could compensate it however they like: At the time when steel charge was neutered, they gave out Legendary cores. Not the greatest solution, imo, but it worked out. While I agree that event weapons should be available to everyone (and they are slowly doing that, with new events releasing older event weapons), you cant put founders items on that list. It isn't unfair to have founders items, since founders funded the creation of this game. I have most of the arcane helmets. But having them puts newer players at a disadvantage. It's undeniable. They simply don't have access to better stats without paying for it. It's technically money-locked content, since you can trade for them. And while you can in theory work your way to buying one from someone after trading tons of rare prime parts away, it doesn't excuse the Arcane helmets at all. They just shouldn't exist in a game where cosmetics are advertised as cosmetics alone. Uh, OP, this doesn't give a lot of credit to your argument, and even casts a negative image upon yourself. I don't have a problem with arcane helms as they are and how they may not entirely match the visual of the body. Sure it does. I'll give you an example - I have the Rubedo Rhino skin. I want to use the full skin, as the metallic effect looks fantastic. As soon as I enter a game with it, I will almost instanly get comments on why the hell I'm not using the Arcane Vanguard helmet instead. And they are right, I should be using it, because it's a direct upgrade. But I don't want to. I got the skin because I like the look of it, and having to wear a helmet with no textural correlation to the rest of the body just looks silly. It's not a huge issue, yes, but it still makes players double-take their choice in cosmetics. And to top it off, whilst we're on the topic of Rhino, he has a new skin coming out soon. Already have a lot of players been asking for a "cosmetic slot". What this will effectively do is leave out the majority of newer players (circa 2015/late 2014) who don't have these arcane helmets and likely never will. It's unfair for them. I disagree with this as I could not care less about my appearance, or anyone else's for that matter. I use all the Arcane helmets for the stats I want (I own every Arcane helmet, but I literally only use half of them. I also made an effort to collect every single stateless helmet so really, I use 1/4 of my helmets). I'm one of those people that prefer the the stats over appearance because appearance doesn't matter when I'm too busy killing things for to worry about how I look. That would be like going onto a battlefield and saying "Hey guys, hold up. I don't think I want the picture of the skull on my helmet today. Hold on one sec. I'm gonna go back and change it out for the one with the ghost". Like, no one cares. Once you're out there, you forget about it anyway. I'd just prefer something that would give me an advantage out there, instead of picking and choosing a silly helmet that looks better in the customisation screen. To go one step further, use Frames for their abilities. If I'm needed to fill a role, I'll do it. I may look as bad as a Saryn, or as lanky as a Loki, but if I need to do a role, I'll choose a Frame that can deliver. Instead of being like "LOKIMASTERRACE is my favourite Frame so I'll take him to disarm instead of taking Rhino to hold enemies in stasis", or "instead of Nekros to Desecrate my enemies". If I'm going to use a Frame, I'm going to use it because I need to, and then I'm going to maximise hit kit. Arcane helmets help me do that. So again, I disagree with what you've said about completely removing Arcane helmets, simply because I'm Stats > Cosmetics. I understand why you disagree entirely, but for people who care about the visual customisation this game has to offer (and there are many of us), it does matter. And once again, the exclusivity of the Arcane helmets demotes the value of a player who doesn't have one in a team. I've seen players who actively search for teams which have arcane helmets in their loadout, and who actively ignore players who don't, going as far as restarting their lobbies to remove those players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IANOBW Posted October 17, 2015 Author Share Posted October 17, 2015 I cannot imagine the refund i need for not being salty about removal , i don't raid i missed my windows of getting into them, hence no arcane enchantments for me. Platinum? Feels underwhelming and shows lack of imagination (kind of like money for birthday) 10x enchantment of same type: what was the point of this again? Like I said, I don't know what could replace them either. That said, I would be happy with nothing in return for all my Arcane helmets, but I cant say the same for those who traded for them after the removal of the helmets from the market. But I'm sure DE could come up with something if they really wanted to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorfirebox Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 The advantages are miniscule, and are available to such a tiny fraction of the player base that it's not worth taking any action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lughser Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 Hmm I want excal prime as a compensation if DE want to demote my arcane helmets :v This ^ + 5k plat for mental pain! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)LiamRising Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 arcanes are not harming the game in anyway and getting rid of them is a big no i mean just because you feel forced to use them or newer players cannot get them does not mean they should be removed as those who do have and use them most likely want to keep them like i do, i spent hours farming alerts back when warframe hit ps4 to get every arcane just so i had their helms and a nice bonus to go with them and would like to keep them rather then lose them nothing could compensate the time and effort i spent waiting for the alerts for the helms. plus the arcane enhancements are nearly 100% better except for one or two helmets (arcane aura and vanguard in particular) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Master4733 Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 I disagree with this as I could not care less about my appearance, or anyone else's for that matter. I use all the Arcane helmets for the stats I want (I own every Arcane helmet, but I literally only use half of them. I also made an effort to collect every single stateless helmet so really, I use 1/4 of my helmets). I'm one of those people that prefer the the stats over appearance because appearance doesn't matter when I'm too busy killing things for to worry about how I look. That would be like going onto a battlefield and saying "Hey guys, hold up. I don't think I want the picture of the skull on my helmet today. Hold on one sec. I'm gonna go back and change it out for the one with the ghost". Like, no one cares. Once you're out there, you forget about it anyway. I'd just prefer something that would give me an advantage out there, instead of picking and choosing a silly helmet that looks better in the customisation screen. To go one step further, use Frames for their abilities. If I'm needed to fill a role, I'll do it. I may look as bad as a Saryn, or as lanky as a Loki, but if I need to do a role, I'll choose a Frame that can deliver. Instead of being like "LOKIMASTERRACE is my favourite Frame so I'll take him to disarm instead of taking Rhino to hold enemies in stasis", or "instead of Nekros to Desecrate my enemies". If I'm going to use a Frame, I'm going to use it because I need to, and then I'm going to maximise hit kit. Arcane helmets help me do that. So again, I disagree with what you've said about completely removing Arcane helmets, simply because I'm Stats > Cosmetics. Silly noob looks are everythingXD seriously though to me looks are more important that stats(Silly noob is a joke, no one get offended) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
low1991 Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 (edited) - Newer players are at a disadvantage, not having access to these helmets without forking out - Most Arcane helmets have negligible downsides, whilst having perks that are definitly worth having (e.g. Arcane Pendragon, Arcane Vanguard, Arcane Aura, etc.) - Arcane helmets have an effect on player's decision on whether to make their frame look visually more appealing or to function better in game -Newer players can ignore arcane helmet as most of the arcane are useless (except for power efficiency for mod points saving) -The most Arcane helmets gives is a mod economic of 2~3? free mod points. -I use helmet for visuals, even when i have an arcane helmet that vies bonus stats but looks ugly as hell. *i sense min-max'ing player here*... even if DE were to follow your advise... what compensation will they (DE) have to give us, the players whom owns them? *not gonna be satisfied till DE give me 5~10 Leg Cores!* Edited October 17, 2015 by low1991 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)FriendSharkey Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 No, it would be better if De simply came out with alternative helmet designs that you actually want to wear over an Arcane. Like the new upcoming Temple Rhino Skin, as much as I love my Vangaurd I'm going with the new look. Mordred for Excalibros is another great example of a tempting aesthetics done right. Punishing players who spent money on those arcane helmets isn't the way to go. Of course I would laugh if De gave each arcane holder 5000 plat a helmet. Simply because it would make players who want to punish them for having them choke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IANOBW Posted October 17, 2015 Author Share Posted October 17, 2015 The advantages are miniscule, and are available to such a tiny fraction of the player base that it's not worth taking any action. Except, the advantages aren't minuscule. Take for example: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Essence_Loki_Helmet http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Aurora_Frost_Helmet#Arcane_Variant http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Storm_Volt_Helmet And there are many more. arcanes are not harming the game in anyway and getting rid of them is a big no i mean just because you feel forced to use them or newer players cannot get them does not mean they should be removed as those who do have and use them most likely want to keep them like i do, i spent hours farming alerts back when warframe hit ps4 to get every arcane just so i had their helms and a nice bonus to go with them and would like to keep them rather then lose them nothing could compensate the time and effort i spent waiting for the alerts for the helms. plus the arcane enhancements are nearly 100% better except for one or two helmets (arcane aura and vanguard in particular) I understand your view. I used to be like that as well - I didn't see why I should give up all my hard earned helmets, all those hours spent waiting for them to pop up in alerts. But now, I believe it's time to just let them go. Not a lot of people agree with me on this, but for a new player, knowing you can't get that extra +25% duration for your Link Trinity build without paying extortionately for it is painful (especially when those who started playing before you got it for free in an alert). -Newer players can ignore arcane helmet as most of the arcane are useless (except for power efficiency for mod points saving) -The most Arcane helmets gives is a mod economic of 2~3? free mod points. -I use helmet for visuals, even when i have an arcane helmet that vies bonus stats but looks ugly as hell. *i sense min-max'ing player here*... A lot of players like to min-max. Why wouldn't they? If they have a chance to have a more powerful Warframe, why would they miss that chance? You can't say you've never wanted to make a specific build for your frame/weapon. Not having easy access to Arcane helmets is wrong. Every player has a right to them. They shouldn't be punished for not being around at the right time. This is why all the old event weapons are being re-released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Master4733 Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 Seriously why do people even bother with seniority, it's like complaining about Excal prime, they were here first only difference is they paid for Excal prime like $200 I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IANOBW Posted October 17, 2015 Author Share Posted October 17, 2015 Seriously why do people even bother with seniority, it's like complaining about Excal prime, they were here first only difference is they paid for Excal prime like $200 I think I got all my arcanes from events. I didn't pay a dime for them. Why should others not be allowed the same? Also, using Excal P as a comparison is a terrible way to go about it. This isn't about founder's items, this is about free stuff that new players should have access to as much as old players do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Master4733 Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 I got all my arcanes from events. I didn't pay a dime for them. Why should others not be allowed the same? Also, using Excal P as a comparison is a terrible way to go about it. This isn't about founder's items, this is about free stuff that new players should have access to as much as old players do. Your telling me that because your were here before they removed them it isn't fair for new people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PickleMonster21 Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 I understand why you disagree entirely, but for people who care about the visual customisation this game has to offer (and there are many of us), it does matter. And once again, the exclusivity of the Arcane helmets demotes the value of a player who doesn't have one in a team. I've seen players who actively search for teams which have arcane helmets in their loadout, and who actively ignore players who don't, going as far as restarting their lobbies to remove those players. You mentioned that you wanted the removal of Arcane helmets. At the moment, we (you and I, people with Arcane helmets) have the best of both worlds. If you want the looks but don't like the Stats, go with the cosmetic helmets. If you want the Stats and don't care about the looks, go with the Arcane.The new players? They obviously don't have access to these helmets, and that's okay. I've missed a few events, I missed out on those weapons/Mods. I understand where you're coming from when you say it's not fair. I still disagree with the removal though. Just like all the Vandal weapons, like Lato, Braton, Snipetron, these helmets are just simply a thing for when you played. Chances are, I'll never obtain a Snipetron, Braton or Lato Vandal. So… why not get rid of those, too? I know, they were rewarded to those who played the Closed Beta or whatever, but still, it's all about when you played. I was playing when the Arcane helmets were around. They are my reward for being around then, just like those Vandal weapons are rewards to the Closed Beta players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IANOBW Posted October 17, 2015 Author Share Posted October 17, 2015 Your telling me that because your were here before they removed them it isn't fair for new people? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unholyrequiem Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 (edited) Rather than remove them completely, DE should set down a new mechanic which more or less fulfills the same or similar function to shift players over from dependency from a system that leaves the remaining arcane helmets to the elite few who paid dearly or kept theirs to a universal system available to everyone. :O Of course I personally feel the same way about Primed mods being timed exclusive items rather than permanent additions to current content. Pretending that it's reasonable to hand them out for players who would sell them for 50-100plat each at the tax rate of 1,000,000 credits isn't exactly helping either. These kind of mods can change the game, (Example Primed flow, Primed continuity, Primed ravage, Primed point blank) and may even make a significant difference compared to builds who didn't manage to snag one either because they were too low in mastery at the time or they simply didn't play during that period. Just imagine if Primed Intensify was ever released. Things that can potentially cause a huge change in general shouldn't be exclusive in general. My view includes stance mods and any kind of item that can create a power gap between old and new players. :) Edited October 17, 2015 by Unholyrequiem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Master4733 Posted October 17, 2015 Share Posted October 17, 2015 Yes.I started laying a year ago and I don't get bothered in the least bit about these helmets, he'll I had my best friend over xbox send me a video of him deleting his Excal prime(I love excal) because it was xp glitching him, anyone who is complaining about other people being here first need to respect those people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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