Build Transparency When Entering A Team

[_Rue_]

I hate going into a mission expecting things from my team and ending up being disappointed.

 

This applies to Missions that involves keys and/or a lot of time.

 

I love the new ability screen with the ability to see how much mods increase/decrease the aspects of an ability.

 

I was thinking... Do you think as the owner of the key/organizer of the squad, I have the right to see the ability screen of the participants?

 

Clarification:

Ability screen, as in the screen that displays abilities and their stats (% healed, duration, damage, energy per pulse, etc) not the mod screen.

 

There are 3 things that make up a good player.

1) The right Skills

2) The right tools

3) The right behavior

 

Skills/Behavior cannot be quantified in this game as of yet.

 

What I'm proposing will help determine if someone at least has the right tools for the job.

 

I will address these as the discussion progresses:

 

Concerns about privacy

- I just realized something. Being able to post this via a link and send it to someone via PM. This way you can show the host only. You also have the option to share it with someone who is curious and wants to check your build.

 

Concerns about filtering/elitism

- People already filter in recruitment/private messages. This thread is about Informed choice, not what people will do about it after.

- If you want to play by your own rules, start your own game/mission, if you want to join a team, be a team player.

- People don't look for perfect builds when recruiting. It takes forever.

- I think you should be more concerned about private chat rooms because I can almost guarantee that there will be a "Trial" and "trial NM" Chat that will not even let you join if you aren't part of their group.

 

Concerns about having low MR or non Primed Frames

- This may actually help. A low MR player without a primed frame (say Trin) can be picked over a high MR player who doesn't have the right set up/results.

- Would you rather be judged By your MR and Primed Frames or your build?

 

Concerns About Being Judged

- You can't live life without judging and being judged. It's a fact. "Is it safe to cross the road? Can I trust this person? Is this edible?

- What makes judgement bad/negative is when these are based on wrong information or if these were made because of the lack of information. Hence I would like information. There is also the refusal to revise judgement based on new data, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

*I see someone hosting a raid. Will I join? Let's check their Profile... MR5. Hmm...*

 

Concerns about Meta

- This is not the venue for voicing concerns about a meta. If you want to discuss this, you are free to start an anti-meta thread somewhere.

 

Concerns about "Builds" not being a guarantee

- It never is. At least you are eliminating this as a cause of failure. That's a 1/3 less in terms of causes of failure if you are considering That your root causes of failure can stem from either Skill/Will/Tools.

 

Concerns about other factors

- These are either mitigated by skill, behavior or tools. If not, then there is no point focusing on it.

 

Concerns about choice and Freedom

- Tenno have a right to check or not check this. Tenno have the freedom to show/not show these. Key owners/Hosts/organizers should also have the freedom to choose based on something quantifiable.

 

Concerns about looking for the Perfect Builds

- This is an option that people can take. But I guarantee that it will take a very long time. Enough recruiting experience will tell you that you need to know how much you need for something and you can set that as a min requirement. Of course in a perfect world people will look for perfect builds, and there would be an abundance of people with these builds. We don't, however live in a perfect world and thinking that you do, will leave you waiting in recruitment forever.

Edited October 24, 2015 by _Rue_

[DarcnyssWolfe]

I fully agree on this solely if I have a choice in showing or not showing. Some of my builds I prefer to keep to myself (Cause 2hr T4 powerless Valk xD), however I do believe it'd be very helpful for say setting up the team for a raid, being able to see who has what build on to trivialize the run with power spam abuse and total CC domination...

Note: Tiny rant at the end cause I hate power abuse ruining the game.

[Stratego89]

"Well you all have the right builds and we still lost- so apparently you guys just suck." I can see the amount of THIS STATEMENT that your suggestion would lead to... That's my only real concern frankly.

[_Rue_]

"Well you all have the right builds and we still lost- so apparently you guys just suck." I can see the amount of THIS STATEMENT that your suggestion would lead to... That's my only real concern frankly.

It depends on your team. If you don't like their behavior, block them. The next time you recruit, you don't have to deal with that person.

 

As mentioned in the OP, there are other factors to consider (Skill and Behavior) which cannot be quantified. I'm dealing with the things that can be quantified.

 

I'd rather give people a basis to make decisions rather than continue with people making decisions based on something vague.

I fully agree on this solely if I have a choice in showing or not showing. Some of my builds I prefer to keep to myself (Cause 2hr T4 powerless Valk xD), however I do believe it'd be very helpful for say setting up the team for a raid, being able to see who has what build on to trivialize the run with power spam abuse and total CC domination...

Note: Tiny rant at the end cause I hate power abuse ruining the game.

 

The goal is more - Avoid wasted time, effort and keys than trivialize content.

[MumblesMcphatty]

Please - the so called meta already injects enough toxicity into the playerbase.

These days, if an alternative to the YouTube meta builds becomes known to the squad - some meta-junkies feel the need to turn chat into a poop-slinging arena.

You're proposing we now outright ostracise those who actually try other builds and learn their own way to play?

That is a fantastic idea!

[_Rue_]

Please - the so called meta already injects enough toxicity into the playerbase.

These days, if an alternative to the YouTube meta builds becomes known to the squad - some meta-junkies feel the need to turn chat into a poop-slinging arena.

You're proposing we now outright ostracise those who actually try other builds and learn their own way to play?

That is a fantastic idea!

So do you do Trials outside of your friends/clan/alliance?

[Dillon_J]

no thanks. This would just split the community even more than it already is. If it did exist then why even put a toggle option on.  And if people saw some of my builds theyd probably want to immediately question me in some instances.  I have some bizarre builds sometimes that simply looking at them makes you think they are terrible.

 

If you expect a certain build out of a player, like I expect during a raid,  ask ahead of time and before launching the session like I do.  I have bolded the main point as that is what such an option would cause.

[_Rue_]

no thanks. This would just split the community even more than it already is. If it did exist then why even put a toggle option on.  And if people saw some of my builds theyd probably want to immediately question me in some instances.  I have some bizarre builds sometimes that simply looking at them makes you think they are terrible.

 

If you expect a certain build out of a player, like I expect during a raid,  ask ahead of time and before launching the session like I do.  I have bolded the main point as that is what such an option would cause.

people think others would care about their build 100% of the time. This isn't the case. They will care when it comes to difficult content. And this is primarily for difficult content.

 

If your build will make the run go longer than I have time for or cause it to fail, i don't want to play with you. That's it. I think i deserve to know that much if I'm using my resources on something.

 

Funky builds, I have my own. BUT, i'm not going to risk a trial just so I can test it.

 

Capture missions? Sure. Exterminates? Go ahead. It'd be a waste of much more time to filter people for easy missions.

[_Medo_]

sorry but I wouldn't like anyone, not the leader, nor the members, to see my build. people already whine enough in organized squad matches. this would only make them whine more about how it's not the "right build" just because they don't like it. 

 

If this is applied this is what will happen (I think ) : 

people who are recruiting will demand certain builds that will soon become the mainstream requirement so this will limit how people like to play even more. this is a bit obvious from now in people who demand a desecrate-build nekros for survival runs. he can't use his ult for some fun just because the squad leader demanded a full eff and max range build

[Numbsky1]

Terrible idea since it leads to even more elitism, forced mainstream builds and less diversity and fun. If you want to play squad hitler you are free to do so with your friends and clan mates and force them to submit their builds beforehand. As a general game feature I absolutely reject your proposal. 

 

Have you seen recruitment chat lately, no matter what its EV Trinity, Nova, Frost, Mesa. It is as if people were unaware how to play ANY game content without at least 3 of those 4. I guess that is the seed of draco. Any measures that lead to more elitism and dung flinging in chat need to get avoided. 

Edited October 24, 2015 by Numbsky1

[_Rue_]

sorry but I wouldn't like anyone, not the leader, nor the members, to see my build. people already whine enough in organized squad matches. this would only make them whine more about how it's not the "right build" just because they don't like it. 

 

If this is applied this is what will happen (I think ) : 

people who are recruiting will demand certain builds that will soon become the mainstream requirement so this will limit how people like to play even more. this is a bit obvious from now in people who demand a desecrate-build nekros for survival runs. he can't use his ult for some fun just because the squad leader demanded a full eff and max range build

If you have a problem with the meta, this isn't the area to voice it. This is about transparency.

 

If people want to play a specific way, let them. If you do not want to play their game then don't play in their game. It's pretty simple.

 

If i'm hosting a Trial, using my key, i want to make sure that the people I hire at least have the right tool. Right now, people are using MR. if you are all for that then okay. If this gets implemented, this will override MR since this has numbers.

[_Rue_]

Terrible idea since it leads to even more elitism, forced mainstream builds and less diversity and fun. If you want to play squad hitler you are free to do so with your friends and clan mates and force them to submit their builds beforehand. As a general game feature I absolutely refuse your proposal. 

 

Have you seen recruitment chat lately, no matter what its EV Trinity, Nova, Frost, Mesa. It is as if people were unaware how to play ANY game content without at least 3 of those 4. I guess that is the seed of draco. Any measures that lead to more elitism and dung flinging in chat need to get avoided. 

Elitism? Transparency. Informed choice.

 

Again, this is not the venue for voicing opinions about the meta. You cannot control the community. And you cannot suppress the meta.

 

All this is about is Informed Choice. If I am going to make a decision, I want to make sure that I have the facts. What people will do with this is another thing altogether.

[YasaiTsume]

I'm a simple person :

I see their Warframe under level 20, I don't expect anything. I see multiple weapons under level 20, I don't expect anything.

Just don't die and hinder the rest of us.

[_Rue_]

I'm a simple person :

I see their Warframe under level 20, I don't expect anything. I see multiple weapons under level 20, I don't expect anything.

Just don't die and hinder the rest of us.

And this is going to be the case still. Can you use the same basis for Trials?

 

Imagine yourself hosting a Trial. Would you want to fail? Who are you going to include? What will you base your decisions on?

[_Medo_]

If you have a problem with the meta, this isn't the area to voice it. This is about transparency.

 

If people want to play a specific way, let them. If you do not want to play their game then don't play in their game. It's pretty simple.

 

If i'm hosting a Trial, using my key, i want to make sure that the people I hire at least have the right tool. Right now, people are using MR. if you are all for that then okay. If this gets implemented, this will override MR since this has numbers.

so you want to tell me that if you see almost every raid-hosting squad requiring a certain build you will still believe that if I don't want to play their game I won't ? what if this expands to not only raids, but other missions. almost everyone hosting will require the same build just because things like this spread so quickly (I mean the requirements ). look at draco now. people want only saryn / excal + trin + frost ...

 

if you tried to enter a draco run as a slow nova people start whining like you've never seen before. "Oh you're slowing the spawns" .. " Oh you're a noob for using slow nova you should've gotten a fast nova build" oh you're ruining the game for us" and the whining continues on and on.

same thing if you joined a void T4 Defense with say atlas, or any other frame that doesnt really "shine" in defense matches. people will still whine about it until you are forced to play with frost / trinity / ... etc every match to prevent yourself from hearing them whine again.

 

the point of what all what I said is that this will give people more room for restricting the builds that enter certain missions. and this will probably spread so much that it will be almost impossible to find a squad that doesn't require this certain build. Right now it's just MR, and if this is applied it will make bigger and more annoying restrictions. I'm not attacking your opinion I totally respect it but I'm just trying to present what I think is the other side of the coin, or what is considered the biggest disadvantage for this.

[Laisha]

I got both of the emblems from the trial so no reason for me to do it anymore. To me, the trial is nothing more than proof of concept.

 

I am not saying that I am a saint. I join missions with the mindset that my teammates will fail horribly and I bring along the base-minimum gear that I personally feel is required to make the mission at hand succeed. Even with friends who I have played countless games with I still do this.

 

When I fully load in I start to judge people solely based on two factors: Their current hp/shields and their mastery rank and I adjust myself accordingly to how they, themselves, play. Their chosen warframe, weapons, companion, aura, ranks on their gear, and even the way they have modded them all I do not care about. I simply judge them by how they play and if I believe them to be novices at the game based on what they do.

 

Usually If they are 0-3 I take the mission slowly and try to 'hand-hold' them with subtle waypoints and siting and waiting for them to catch up and even walking behind them to take out the things in their blindspots. I slowly speed up/down based on how skilled they are at the game's mechanics and at all times I try not to let them get too overwhelmed.

 

If they are MR 4-10 and are on one of my favorite gringrin nodes I play a more supporting offensive role to judge their skill. I stare at their shield/hp bar and the ones who get hurt the most I try to tail them from afar and help them out of sticky situations when needed but I do less hand-holding than I would 0-3s.

 

Rarely do I ever get to a point where I can freely utilize my full fighting potential even with people of MR 10+. I mean, If it wasn't for the status screen being forced in my face after every mission I would never have dialed back to compensate for others.

 

The fun that I have could(and probably does) hinder the fun of others and I don't wish to make people feel inadequate.

[achromos]

 

 

Seriously, though.  Toxic players, which there are plenty of... will use this to break groups down JUST to get rid of someone who has ONE mod that he/she dose not agree with.  Don't have a 10/10 blind rage?  Cannot afford it just yet and stuck with a 9/10?  GTFO SCRUB!

 

Seriously, people also like to have their own builds remain 'their's' call them special snowflakes if you want, but some people pride themselves on their 'uniqueness'

 

My reason for not liking it is simple...  This will give people yet another tool to 'judge' people with.  Even now, with the aura mod being shown, people look at you like you are crazy if you aren't running Corrosive even in non 40+ minute/Wave content.  They also don't want you bringing a secondary/melee that you don't plan on using, just leveling while you mainly want to use your primary.

 

 

Too much headache, bad outweighs the good no need to give the toxic players MORE fuel to light their fires of 'judgement' against others.

Edited October 24, 2015 by achromos

[_Rue_]

so you want to tell me that if you see almost every raid-hosting squad requiring a certain build you will still believe that if I don't want to play their game I won't ? what if this expands to not only raids, but other missions. almost everyone hosting will require the same build just because things like this spread so quickly (I mean the requirements ). look at draco now. people want only saryn / excal + trin + frost ...

 

if you tried to enter a draco run as a slow nova people start whining like you've never seen before. "Oh you're slowing the spawns" .. " Oh you're a noob for using slow nova you should've gotten a fast nova build" oh you're ruining the game for us" and the whining continues on and on.

same thing if you joined a void T4 Defense with say atlas, or any other frame that doesnt really "shine" in defense matches. people will still whine about it until you are forced to play with frost / trinity / ... etc every match to prevent yourself from hearing them whine again.

 

the point of what all what I said is that this will give people more room for restricting the builds that enter certain missions. and this will probably spread so much that it will be almost impossible to find a squad that doesn't require this certain build. Right now it's just MR, and if this is applied it will make bigger and more annoying restrictions. I'm not attacking your opinion I totally respect it but I'm just trying to present what I think is the other side of the coin, or what is considered the biggest disadvantage for this.

To be honest, if you want to play by your own rules, you should host your own mission. People keep on talking about being restricted when they are free to host their own mission. if I don't want to go meta, i can host my own game. H> Draco any frame welcome.

 

You have to understand that these things are caused by game mechanics that people take advantage of. There will always be a meta. This will not change that. Back in CB it was maxed range volt and Mag. Now It's Saryn.

 

What I am presenting is the ability to make informed decisions based on these stats. That's it.

 

It will also be a venue for people to present new builds... which will eventually become meta.

[_Rue_]

I got both of the emblems from the trial so no reason for me to do it anymore. To me, the trial is nothing more than proof of concept.

 

I am not saying that I am a saint. I join missions with the mindset that my teammates will fail horribly and I bring along the base-minimum gear that I personally feel is required to make the mission at hand succeed. Even with friends who I have played countless games with I still do this.

 

When I fully load in I start to judge people solely based on two factors: Their current hp/shields and their mastery rank and I adjust myself accordingly to how they, themselves, play. Their chosen warframe, weapons, companion, aura, ranks on their gear, and even the way they have modded them all I do not care about. I simply judge them by how they play and if I believe them to be novices at the game based on what they do.

 

Usually If they are 0-3 I take the mission slowly and try to 'hand-hold' them with subtle waypoints and siting and waiting for them to catch up and even walking behind them to take out the things in their blindspots. I slowly speed up/down based on how skilled they are at the game's mechanics and at all times I try not to let them get too overwhelmed.

 

If they are MR 4-10 and are on one of my favorite gringrin nodes I play a more supporting offensive role to judge their skill. I stare at their shield/hp bar and the ones who get hurt the most I try to tail them from afar and help them out of sticky situations when needed but I do less hand-holding than I would 0-3s.

 

Rarely do I ever get to a point where I can freely utilize my full fighting potential even with people of MR 10+. I mean, If it wasn't for the status screen being forced in my face after every mission I would never have dialed back to compensate for others.

 

The fun that I have could(and probably does) hinder the fun of others and I don't wish to make people feel inadequate.

So you are saying that MR is enough of a basis? Sorry i couldn't get how this related to the OP.

[VoidNomade]

All positive and negative things are listed.

 

I made my opinion. The negative things overweight the positive things for me personally.

 

So, No.

[_Rue_]

 

 

Seriously, though.  Toxic players, which there are plenty of... will use this to break groups down JUST to get rid of someone who has ONE mod that he/she dose not agree with.  Don't have a 10/10 blind rage?  Cannot afford it just yet and stuck with a 9/10?  GTFO SCRUB!

 

Seriously, people also like to have their own builds remain 'their's' call them special snowflakes if you want, but some people pride themselves on their 'uniqueness'

 

My reason for not liking it is simple...  This will give people yet another tool to 'judge' people with.  Even now, with the aura mod being shown, people look at you like you are crazy if you aren't running Corrosive even in non 40+ minute/Wave content.  They also don't want you bringing a secondary/melee that you don't plan on using, just leveling while you mainly want to use your primary.

 

 

Too much headache, bad outweighs the good no need to give the toxic players MORE fuel to light their fires of 'judgement' against others.

You do know that practically, this is impossible. it' takes forever to get perfect builds while recruiting. Unless you are recruiting from a specialized list of friends. It takes for ever.

 

If you want to join a team, you gotta be a team player. Id you don't want to play their game, start your own. You don't want to be forced, but you already want to people to play your way.

 

if you want your build to be secret, toggle it off.

[Laisha]

So you are saying that MR is enough of a basis? Sorry i couldn't get how this related to the OP.

 

Just stated my own personal opinion while saying that the proof of concept that is the Trail isn't something I care about since I have both emblems already.

 

Honestly, only how versed the people are in the mechanics of the game matters to me when doing something like the Trial. I don't openly engage them about it either since I already bring the things that I feel is required to make the mission at hand succeed.

 

There are only 2 fail states in the Trial. One of them is the Hijack and the other is having less than 4 players alive that still have revives at any time. I can personally prevent one of them while the other requires the others to know where the pads are.

[Kuestenjung]

I know what you are saying with it and sometimes I wish me such a feature too, but only sometimes, cause I think this is going in the same way like "mastery matters" and that´s not a good thing.

[_Rue_]

I know what you are saying with it and sometimes I wish me such a feature too, but only sometimes, cause I think this is going in the same way like "mastery matters" and that´s not a good thing.

I would personally have this more than "mastery". At least this gives me concrete data. Mastery gives you a vague idea of experience and gear. I'd rather be judged based on what I'm bringing rather than what I've vaguely accomplished.

[Gelkor]

on trials I'm more inclined to have transparency of ping than anything else.

That's really it.