Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[Censium]

While it's not perfect, the health change is a bug bear. But I agree. Give it time. When those who got so addicted to press-4-to-win heroine come down off their high, and wait till the legit feedback comes down the pipeline.

[DrBorris]

Saryn is now capable of massive DPS... if you use certain weapons. A Gas Ignis for example is wonderful, but without a moderate status chance other weapons will fall flat. In addition, you are forced to melee in order to get that massive DPS.

 

However, I think Saryn really shines in higher level now. Her abilities are a waste of energy at low level, but throw on a rage and you will have enrgy for days and melt high level enemies. It is an ironic twist, Saryn used to have poor late game scaling but OP early-mid. Now she has trouble at lower levels and shines in endless play.

[(XBOX)SixPathsOfHate]

I find that saryn's synergy is a forced synergy unlike excalibur's synergy which is simply that all of his abilities seem to flow together. Particularly with his ultimate having elements of/synergy with other powers.

 

Saryn's abilities seem to *need* to be chained to be reasonably effective and she seems to be hampered by relying heavily on all stats, range, power, and duration.

 

To carry excalibur's style of synergy to saryn, I would suggest:

 

Spore: A spore pod should be able to be cast on the ground and any enemies who walk within it's spore producing radius should be infected. Enemies that are infected should constantly emit spores from their pods within a reasonable radius so that the infection spreads to nearby enemies. As stated earlier in the thread, why aim for a spore pod when you can take a head shot and be done with it? Bothering to aim at spores should probably explode and seed spores over a VERY large area to make it worth while. Also, having the spore pod emit a trail of spores/ be able to infect enemies it passes while en route to target would probably further enhance the "disease spreading" feel.

 

Molt: Molt should automatically be full of spores so that enemies who attack it get spored. Having to cast spore onto molt to give it that effect is just forced synergy and doesn't add to the excitement/joy of using saryn. Just an extra step in an attempt to force synergy between abilities. Also, molt doesn't appear to me to have a time of invulnerability where it collects damage and becomes even more damaging/has an even greater range. Did this get cut as an idea? It seems to me that a spore filled tissue sack would get irritated and inflamed as it was shot and clawed at and whatnot and might explode in an even bigger mess of infection and grossness.

 

Toxic lash: This would have been better if it extended to all weapons, having it melee only limits part of saryn's synergy to melee. Not even excalibur is limited to melee when he pulls out his energy sword. And generally, anything "limiting" is probably not so great. Perhaps it could have a lower bonus to ranged weapons than melee so it's still melee focused but the benefits of toxic lash aren't limited to melee. Especially not the "automatically pops spores" and bonus 100% toxic effect. I think it already is a separate toxic effect that doesn't combine with weapon mods keeping it a discrete stat, that should continue. Toxic lash should also be recastable while active so one does not have to wait for it to run out to refresh it.

 

Miasma: A concern I have with this ability but am not certain if it is one, is that miasma has a very short duration and increasing the duration can lead to numbers like 5.99 seconds. Does this round up to 6 and give you six ticks of damage or does one get screwed out of another damage instance by .01 seconds? To have damage per second work and not feel ripped off, I would think miasma needs a duration more in the base 10+ second range and be increased by seconds and not fractions of seconds so you might get a 30 second dot. The effects of popping spores and molts to spread spore effects would continue to be good, happenstance synergy rather than forced synergy.

 

Also, considering saryn is a toxic/disease spready type frame, I would think that leaving behind a fog/mist in the area she has miasma'd that will affect enemies who wander into it would be a thematically good thing. (visual should be low to the ground and non visibility impairing) It could be a fog that is some how (lore/technobable) sustained by saryn, so if she recasts it in a new location the old one dissipates and the new one becomes the new instance. Similar to hydroid's mr. slappy being recastable while active but disappearing from the old location.  Additionally, I find it baffling that saryn's ult is one of the lower range ultimates. If it really is a kind of miasma poison mist thing, I would think it would spread over quite a distance. Effectiveness (concentration/parts per million of toxin) could perhaps reduce from the epicenter, or it could have an initial cast radius that grows over time as it spreads, (or both) but either way I feel it should have a much larger area of effect.

THIS, DE YOU SEE WHAT IM SEEING? MAKE IT HAPPEN!

[akira_him]

Those of you trying to use Saryn for her ult are going to be miserable, there's simply no way to deal with the 100 base energy cost and the fact that its output is crap. Start focusing on her other abilities, my clan mates and I have found a handful of niche/fun builds using 1 and 3 and her new passive.

 

Our main Saryn fnatic has achieved a 40min+ T4 solo with his build, which he asked us not to share till get can put a video up.

 

The re-work isn't THAT bad. 

but it is bad, isn't it, slightly better than expected, but still

practically nothing changed for venom and contagion, every single change in this revisit are for miasma

and you told us not to focus on it

[Censium]

Saryn is now capable of massive DPS... if you use certain weapons. A Gas Ignis for example is wonderful, but without a moderate status chance other weapons will fall flat. In addition, you are forced to melee in order to get that massive DPS.

 

However, I think Saryn really shines in higher level now. Her abilities are a waste of energy at low level, but throw on a rage and you will have enrgy for days and melt high level enemies. It is an ironic twist, Saryn used to have poor late game scaling but OP early-mid. Now she has trouble at lower levels and shines in endless play.

That's the case with most frames when maxed out to be honest. Not surprised. I have yet to do much testing beyond planets, but I can see this being very possible

[mcryseria]

Simplest solution to fix Miasma would've been to that, it can't go below 100% duration Or make it LoS...

Yes, making it an actual utility ability instead of it just dealing outright damage overtime would solve the press 4 to win problem while also making the ability really useful in late game/high level missions.

[RHuckebein]

See, thats called synergy, not this damn synergy forced to use 2 - 3 skills to make something. Like Limbo or new Saryn.

 

No, synergy is when two abilities are good and complement one another.  Excalibur has synergy.

 

What saryn has now is two and a half abilities spread out over 4 buttons.  That's not synergy, that's having a lot of partial abilities.

[RiouHotaru]

Less powerful than almost every single other damage multiplying ability in the game.

 

I think you overestimate how powerful a forced viral proc actually is. It is in effect a +100% damage bonus.

 

No it's not.  It cuts enemy HP in half.

 

Late-game that's huge, especially against level 80+ enemies who probably have buckets of HP.

[Heatnix.]

So are we... supposed to just stick to Gas Ignis now to be able to do stuff with Saryn? I mean... to combo, even with all those cons, all our skills when other frames just press a button to do the same faster and more efficiently? Mhhh.....

[Xekrin]

So I take it noone noticed the bonus to blocking with her 3? 

[Racter]

So, 13 pages, maybe 10? people said they liked it in total. Assuming they weren't trolling, that's what, 5% of the people giving feedback, at best?

 

WTB Roll back or substantial buffs. I wasn't crazy about Miasma spam before, but I didn't really consider 1 shotting lvl 40 enemies overpowered, either. What we have now is just... Bad. It's really not very fun, or effective. Miasma spam wasn't all that enjoyable either but at least it did what it was supposed to do lol

 

RE: Viral procs. Honestly, they don't really outweigh raw damage until enemy levels are past 150-200 in most cases. In this particular case, as a "free" proc from a 1 ability, they are certainly not bad, but not at all a reason to bring a Saryn over another force multiplier. If I had to guess a number, I would say around 250 would be where it would be worth swapping out a Nova (200%) for a Saryn in terms of force multiplication (ignoring AMD). However, Nova is not the only frame that can do that. It would be close to 300 to outweigh Roar, and far past that for TE Mirage, and far again past that for Banshee. Considering that most of the player base stays well under level 100 in most of their game time, can't really make a strong argument for Viral procs. The main reason everyone runs Viral for long runs is not the proc, but the damage bonus against flesh (75% against all Grineer, 50% against Crewman) and lack of a damage resistance from the remaining enemies (healers, Moas) when used with 4x CP.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Racter0325

[akira_him]

See, thats called synergy, not this damn synergy forced to use 2 - 3 skills to make something. Like Limbo or new Saryn.

^this

[Seruu]

but it is bad, isn't it, slightly better than expected, but still

practically nothing changed for venom and contagion, every single change in this revisit are for miasma

and you told us not to focus on it

I went and re-read the patch notes just to try and understand why you reached that conclusion, but I just don't get it. 

[Husla]

- and now her other powers are more usefull, casting spore on molt is a great combo now.

as for all the people i played with calling it a nerf, youre wrong, sayrns effectiveness is increased. her 3 is actually an option now as well.

 

 

played with a few tenno today who said"sayrn sucks now" i aked them what their build was, they all said neegative duration. i asked them if they read the patch notes and changed their build to utalize the changes and of course they said" no I only want to spam 4"

1. They could've changed those without changing Miasma

2. Same answer as 1.

3. Because you've already found the perfect build for the new changes, right?

 

People who want to spam 4 and get loot, theres a better game out there for you guys.....clicker heroes....

Telling tennos to play other games is a loss to DE.

[CelticMoss]

So I take it noone noticed the bonus to blocking with her 3? 

You can't block behind you.

[DrBorris]

I think the EHP nerf may have been a math error on DE's end, hopefully they will give her a buff in that right. The Miasma adjustment sounds good, but what if Spore could transfer corrosive procs as well as toxin procs? It would give her an extremely effective way to strip enemy armor and would add to that synergy DE is looking for.

[Ziegrif]

Haven't tested yet so I'll give feedback on the skin that I have.

 

1. General body is great love the flower shoulder armor.

2. Helmet is just goofy. Don't like it.

3. Dual Zoren does not need another damn exclusive skin. Put it for ALL dual swords. It is WORTHLESS atm. At least put it on the Dual Ichor. Or decrease its price considerably.

4. Sugatras nice. It flows.

 

Will test the new rework later. If it can't handle lvl 100 Heavy Gunners I won't be too happy about it.

 

Also the nerf on her EHP is ridiculous. You were supposed to buff her HP not nerf it. Also 20 armor is a pitiful buff.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Ziegrif

[DSMatticus]

Fine, let's not focus on miasma.

 

Spores: viral procs are damage multipliers. That's what they are. They cut enemy hitpoints in half, which is essentially a +100% damage bonus. Saryn, meet Banshee.

 

Molt: molt is a neat survivability trick, but it does nothing to really contribute to the team's success. I'm not saying survivability is bad, but if you don't have a solid way to contribute to the team (beyond carrying a gun), then who cares about your personal survivability? Also, Trinity and Mesa are already super tanks, and Trinity's kit has tons more overall utility than Saryn's.

 

Toxic Lash: It's a melee buff that makes her kill things faster and helps set up miasma. That's seriously all it does. But it's still a melee buff, and that's... pretty damning, given guns and abilities are almost always better.

 

Alright, so we aren't talking about miasma. We're talking about these three abilities. What about these three abilities stands out to you? What could we use them for that makes Saryn worth bringing along instead of another frame?

[aerosoul1337]

NEXT:

Oberon revisited!

Renewal: increase healing speed by 5%, increase after cast duration by 50%.

Reckoning: increase damage by -20%.

[RawrWolfie]

I've only been playing new Saryn for a day, so take my opinion with salt.  I think the move towards a status-effect identity is a move in the right direction.  It sets Saryn apart.  That being said, I don't think Saryn was slammed hard enough in that direction, at all.  She is still far too traditional. 

 

I think the biggest flaw in her new design is her ability to soak damage.  The setup of spores and molt, the use of a pure-melee ability and a get-in-the-middle-of-it ultimate would see a lot less nit-picking if a player could afford forget about dodging and focus more on positioning their abilities and taking the time to aim spore.  Saryn's damage is extended over time, but the enemies do damage just as fast.  Her play style fails because she's trying to survive in a world operating at a faster pace than her own.  Her abilities should bring enemies down to her speed.

 

My ideal Saryn is one who can persist in the midst of a flock of enemies while they wither and die from status effects.  Let her damage be paltry, there are simply more effective means to dispense death in this game.  Recreate her as a tanky debuffer.  I suggest:

 

                1) Switch molt's natural explosion with the augment's regeneration.

                2) Make miasma a lasting (12 secs?), environmental cloud.  Plummet or remove its damage.

                3) Enemies in miasma deal X% less damage (she now posits more team-play).

                4) Perhaps allow miasma to spread status effects within its radius?

 

As it stands, the current Saryn is much more fitted to assassin-type play.  Snipe them with spore, spin attack in with toxic lash, then run away leaving a molt and then watch them all die to poison from somewhere far, far away.  There's simply not enough tankiness in Saryn, 125 or 150 HP, to stick around while enemies die to poison (thankfully she doesn't have to be around).  A frame with CC can accomplish more by sticking around while the enemy is stunned or similar.  The hit-and-run style is mechanically inferior, but can be fun. 

 

If sleuth and poison are to be her identity, give her an ultimate that reflects that (or the damage debuffing one above, let the player mod more in the direction they prefer).  Miasma currently is an radial burst explosion with a notable cast-time (we have lots of those in other frames).  It doesn't feel stealthy like a snake, it doesn't fit in the hit and run window of time.  As previously mentioned, it can also be difficult to afford or mod to afford.  It ends up feeling not worth the energy or setup it demands of the player.  Rage & regenerate allows the current Saryn to self-regulate up to a certain level of enemy, but then it becomes flirting with death.  To reinforce a stealthy identity, she could have a molt augment that grants brief invisibility.  All her abilities could be silent, miasma could break enemy LOS/accuracy, just be sure to point that out to players so that stealth and guile seem her intended function rather than nuclear farts. 

 

It's been mentioned the game is horde-based and debuff/setup strategies are subpar.  That being said, having a single frame which specializes in that department isn't necessarily bad.  Although it might see niche use, it will be truly rewarding during that use.  Players which take their subpar strategy and manage to rock it may enjoy rewarding feelings of skill and/or uniqueness.

[DrBorris]

if we make it toggle skill it should be like Chroma's elemental ward but instead of a buff anyone/anything that is near her takes corrosive/viral damage per second and every enemy that dies from it releases a gas cloud

I hoped this would be how Miasma would work... oh well.

[akira_him]

I went and re-read the patch notes just to try and understand why you reached that conclusion, but I just don't get it. 

spore->>viral proc>>>buff miasma

molt + spore>>>viral proc on an area>>>buff miasma

spore + toxic lash pop spore>>> toxic proc + viral proc>>>buff miasma

it is all about miasma, they make it unnecessarily complicated to do what it did so people won't even use miasma without actually improve other abilities

practically nothing changed for other abilities, maybe not toxic lash because now it provide slight damage reduction

[mcryseria]

I think the EHP nerf may have been a math error on DE's end, hopefully they will give her a buff in that right. The Miasma adjustment sounds good, but what if Spore could transfer corrosive procs as well as toxin procs? It would give her an extremely effective way to strip enemy armor and would add to that synergy DE is looking for.

Yeah, I hope her EHP gets reverted, the 200 points with max vitality prenerf really help her alot when using regenerative molt. I like the idea of spore transfering other procs but I guess that would be too overpowered.

[Weltraumfred]

I am not all that enthusiastic about the health nerf, rather the opposite. Have to play her a bit on the weekend to see how the other changes worked out.

[LilLemay]

-snip-

I have a few comments, I don't want to start a rage war so keep in mind that in no way am i saying you're wrong i'm just giving you my observations

 

1: The procs help set up miasma, and while banshee does something very similar to this you can't compare the two based on one power given that the rest of their abilities are nothing alike, they both bring two separate skillsets to the table.

 

2: you're right it is good survivability, especially with the augment. It does contribute to the team, if you put spores on it and then detonate it it spreads those spores to everything within its range which, as you said, is a debuff to the enemies. Which helps the team. Again, please stop comparing frames that have nothing to do with Saryn, Trinity is a healer, of course her kit is going to have more utility, it heals us and gives us infinite energy. Mesa doesn't even have any similar powers to Saryn, so i'm not sure why this comparison is even there.

 

3: This one makes 1 much more useful, guaranteeing the spore to explode and spread further, also, damage buff yay