Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[nelu_Y3K]

  In my opinion Sarin got a major nerf in her rework.

  I will now endever to explain why I feel this way buy compering her to her old low duration self as well as to other reworked/new frames.

  Afterwords I'll go over her abilities and give some suggestions for possible buffs.

 

  A) Comparison:

     1) To old Sarin: While not the best end game (+40m T4 S) frame out there Sarin's Miasma did do app 13000 Corosive damage in a significant aoe for about 100 energy (depending on build). While not the most fun way to play this game (personally I hated it) the power of this build is without question having Miasma damage, decent CC, great range, and a very small prep time(get in, cast, gtfo). Now whilst while our current Sarin cam possibly out damage her predecessor, this is significantly harder to do. The prep time has been drastically increased (Lash, Spore, get in, Molt,Mele hit, Miasma, gtfo). The range has been drastically reduced since u need to have both debufs to do the full damage. And the cost is now insane 25+50+50+100=225.


    2)To other frames: Now here's the sad part. All the recent reworks(Excalibur, Frost, Valkyr, Mensa, Nyx, Ember) have turned the respective frames into endgame monsters capable of easily dispatching lvl 70+ Orokin enemies with ease while hardly getting damaged (if played well). The new frames (Atlas, Equinox, Chroma) Are also amazingly devastating in new and interesting ways, they make extended duration runs both easy and a lot of fun. Sad thing is even Mag and Volt are currently better than Sarin.

 

 

  B)Abilities:

    1)Spores: Currently this is the only ability that is on par with the rest of the frames, as it's basically Equinox's Rage with a different drawback.

    2)Molt: Sadly this ability in currently almost useless versus end game mobs, it dies in app 5s. A simple fix would be to give it the same scaling as Alas's Tectonics, and making Regenerative Molt a default part of this ability (The augment can be made to increase the healing amount or to also regenerate energy). Also if default regeneration seams to OP we could base the explosion damage on the new health of the molt.

    3)Toxic Lash :As of now this ability is a pain it needs to be made toggleble. Sadly even after it's made toggleble this ability is still lack luster as hell. Even with the block damage mitigation increase you can still be knock down, staggered and pulled. Now I see two ways of fixing this. First we could hive her cc immunity while the buff is active (just like Atlas's passive). Secondly we could simply allow the buff to affect ranged weapons

    4)Miasma: Wat can I say.... this ability is garbage now, but how do we fix it? I see two possibilities. First we could simply bring back the low duration build. While this would be a simple change, sadly negate the revamp completely since the other abilities become almost useless. I really hope this dose not happen. Secondly we could make Miasma's damage be finisher damage just like Ash's Blade Storm only with a corrosive prock in stead of slash.

 

 

 

  Well my dear teno these are my suggestions. If you have any other ideas please post them.

 

  

   Update:

 

  After sleeping on this problem I managed to realize something. People really love low duration Sarin and it's not our place to deny them that love (if you don't like press 4 to win then do not play press 4 to win) but other people want a more complex and interesting way to play her. So let's compromise, bring back low duration Sarin in all her previous glory but make the high duration one worth buy making her Miasma do finisher damage only if the target has both debuffs on.

 I think that will do it. What's your opinion?

[XxCurtennoxX]

dude, If you're saying spore doesn't scale after lv 40 then you probably don't know what viral proc does right?

 

And btw all damage abilities like the old miasma don't scale great in late game really and even ash blade storm will suffer the same fate once those ancient healers come out.

I think he meant it doesn't make much difference once enemies gain crazy armour scaling. Any problems like that can be fixed by Corrosive Projection anyway. Viral procs are known to be great with 4x cp, so Saryn does in fact scale with the spores.

[XxCurtennoxX]

Even if she gets buffed to not be as tanky as a piece of cardboard, her kit still has issues. 

 

Think about it, what does Saryn 0.2 offer that Ember or Excalibur cannot do, but infinitely better?

 

Excalibur has a reliable AoE CC that tremendously buffs melee damage, and his ultimate does hefty damage without resorting to cheap gimmicks. Ember's ultimate, with the augment, is a massive AoE CC machine, and Accelerant massively buffs her damage without forcing her her to rely on combos. Let's not even talk about Valkyr, who is the melee goddess. 

 

So, Saryn can run around in melee, with her only CC being the short stagger on Miasma and then die quickly as enemies burst her down while she relies on a weak DoT, a weak escape, and Viral procs. Not a very convincing case.

 

Even if we unnerfed her health (which was very shortsighted in the first place) and increased her armour to something like 300, her kit would still have issues. 

 

Some suggestions:

 

Spore should have a small slow (20%?) on affected enemies and maybe briefly stagger them when they come in contact with the spores. Bamn, you have some cheap and spammable CC.

 

Molt should scale like tectonics/snowglobe in that it has an invulnerability period where damage taken is added to its health. As it stands, it's way to squishy for most missions towards the later end of the star chart, let alone endless Void missions.

 

Oh boy, Toxic Lash. I don't see why this ability wasn't scrapped entirely, but it's pretty awful. For starters, it should apply to all weapons, not just melee (although the bonus can be doubled or tripled for melee to encourage melee play a bit more). Secondly, it should be an aura, so Saryn can actually contribute to her team. Third, scrap the augment and work it into part of the base ability, as it's pretty terrible on its own. 

 

Maybe as a new augment we could get health back on kills? Something that could give your team lifesteal would be nice, but there are plenty of options out there. Either way, the current one we have is insufficient.

 

And Miasma, oh boy. This skill either needs more utility, or massively increased damage (preferably both). Compare this to Frost's Avalanche, which does roughly 30% more damage at base (and not as a DoT), hard CCs enemies, and reduces armor. Miasma needs to be cheaper (like, 50 energy) and the base damage as well as the status multipliers should probably be at least doubled (it needs to hit like a truck given how much effort is needed to setup a combo). Corrosive procs on each tick wouldn't hurt as well.

Saryn does indeed need some form of cc in her kit other than the 2 second Miasma stun which I think I mentioned.

[BluelitHalo]

A clannie of mine claimed to have solo'd T4S for an hour with the new Saryn.  Hopefully he posts his proof soon, but people really underestimate the effect of mass Viral proc'ing with her Spores and Molt.

[Thaumatos]

This is very simple. Decreasing an enemy's health by 50% is identical to increasing your damage by +100%. Completely identical. Think about it. Really. Just think. Please. Please think.

Wow.

 

You fail at math...really really hard...

 

Proof:

Enemy has 10k HP.  You have 100 DPS.

You proc viral, enemy has 5k HP.

100% DPS increase is 200 DPS.

 

-50% of ANY number besides 400 is not equal to +100% of 100.

 

 

So while I understand what you meant to say, they're not identical.  Not even in the slightest.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Thaumatos

[MaverickZero]

This Oberon out-damaging Saryn thing is bunk.

 

212% strength Reckoning deals 1325 Impact and 1325 Radiation damage.  

 

Level 40 Corrupted Bombards have 1822.72 armor, which confers 85.9% damage reduction.

 

Impact is reduced to 187 damage.

 

Radiation ignores 75% of Alloy armor, so in this case it's effectively 455.68, which confers 60% damage reduction.

 

Radiation is reduced to 530.

 

Total damage dealt is  530 + 187 = 717 per cast of Reckoning.  

 

 

Miasma with a 185% str build and both procs deals 7770 Corrosive damage over 4 ticks.

 

Alloy armor has no special interaction with Corrosive damage, so armor = 1822.72, conferring 85.9% damage reduction.

 

Corrosive damage total is reduced to 1096.  

 

If you count Viral proc (since Saryn can maintain it indefinitely with Spore and you need it to boost Miasma's damage anyway) then they effectively take 2192 damage.

 

1096 (2192) is significantly more than 717.  Oberon would have to chain-cast Reckoning to out-DPS Miasma.  Miasma would kill them somewhat more slowly than chain-casting Reckoning but with far less less energy spent and still leaving them stunned the whole time.  Also consider the non-trivial Toxin and Viral damage that may be chained to each target while this is going on.  

If you would stop for a second and fire up the simulation against 20 lvl 40 Corrupted Bombard, you'd be as surprised as I am.

 

Both at max strength (saryn also at max duration) and Oberon kills them much faster.

 

Oh and I forgot to mention that I used Oberon's augment + Natural Talent + Range to maximize damage. But, yeah, against infested he only has his utility because of problematic damage types.

[kindablueish]

I saw XTaveren post his thread again on forum even though his theories were already debunked on reddit, so I'm posting the reddit thread by TheDarkStarChimaera who debunked his theories, inorder to shed some accurate light on how the Saryn Rework actually works in practicality. 

Copying the thread by redditor: TheDarkStarChimaera

 

Alright, so /u/xtaveren decided to

spent an appropriate amount of time chuckling at everybody crying about her nerf

and then break out some impressive pencil math espousing a new tactic to up Saryn's damage potential. I'm going to show you why the premise of that convenient, Ivory Tower theory crafting is unfounded, based on some actual playtesting. One thing first though:

but her 4 is now beyond pointless.

Her 4 is useful as a short duration stun, and can clear out some weaker fodder. That stun is crucial, because even with Steel Fiber, the 90% forward-facing damage reduction from Toxic Lash, and Regenerative Molt^{1--see note}, Saryn is still not as tanky as we'd like at high levels^2.The short time that dangerous enemies are spent recoiling from the Miasma cast gives you time to reload, evade, Bullet Jump up to place a Regenerative Molt, set up a Spore-Toxic Lash or Molt-Spore-Miasma combo, or whatever else you need.

and each hit will transmit a POWERFUL (see later analysis) toxin instance to EVERY enemy within 30m (with given build)

If by POWERFUL you mean a single Toxin Proc, and NOT every instance of Toxin on the host, then sure, it's powerful.

See here. The target on the right was whacked around 20 times with the Orthos Prime, then inflicted with spores and struck again (you can see the resulting spores on the target at left). The target on right has ~20 instances of damage, while the target at left (which according to the thread should have received every instance of the Toxin proc) has only 4. Those three instances are, surprise surprise, 3 from the spores and 1 from the single Toxin proc it received--and note that because Toxin procs don't actually combine--they simply run parallel on a host--it's getting a single Toxin proc of regular damage, NOT some amped up super-toxin.

So the claim:

First off, any time an enemy is not actively dead because of your toxins, you can continue to whale on him, and continue stacking toxin not only on him, but also on everybody around him.

Is not true. Yes, you can keep stacking Toxin on to him, but only him. Transmission via Spore rupture is limited to a single Toxin proc, which has the strength only of whatever you whacked it with. To get 20 Toxin procs onto every enemy, you'd have to hit them a number of times equal to (20 - X) , where X is the number of successfully ruptured spores on a toxin-infected host.

While this may be significant, the amountof time you'll need to get off those Toxin procs is far, far more than the aforementioned thread would have you believe.

So no, you cannot infinitely spread more and more Toxin procs to enemies throughout the map. While sound in theory, the actual result does not support the claim the entire build was based upon.

If you chose to use the strategy in the thread, you would get off multiple toxin procs to a single enemy, but you would need to be in close range, constantly striking with your melee weapon--and because you basically have to do 60% of the Toxin-spreading work (the other 40% or so, rough estimate, being provided by copied Toxin procs from spore ruptures)--which is NOT safe, will NOT protect you from gunfire (you can't block AND swing at the same time), and Saryn does NOT have:

the sort of infinite scaling that has turned her into the strongest pure damage frame in the entire game.

Next time you try to bring out fancy pencil math, remember that if you do not have proof for the very thing your argument depends on, you're standing on nothing.

FOOTNOTES

1.    Regenerative Molt will not restore health to Saryn if it is destroyed. Given that a sure-fire way of hitting enemies with Viral, Toxin, and a damage-boosted Miasma is by placing a Spored Molt in the middle of enemies, your Molt is going to die--fast. Because the shed does not have Snowglobe/Tectonics style health scaling, at high level play it is going to die very quickly. A possible solution is to put your Molt high in the air, which can help with encouraging enemy gun fire up to the roof, but may limit its potential spread range. Additionally, you could store your Molt out of reach, giving you secure health but ruining its synergy with Miasma/Spore.

2.    By high level play, I'm referring to T3-T4 or whatever else you like to do that kills you faster than the word "pulchritudinous" kills a date. At that point, Saryn's actual damage potential really matters (because I don't care how much damage you're putting out: if it can kill most Star-Chart enemies it's not really impressive enough to warrant even bringing that Warframe when you could use anyone else you so desire). Because of this, Saryn's potential to scale against high level enemies is on most people's minds.

EDIT 1:52 AM, clarified Toxin-proc spread "a single Toxin proc of regular damage, NOT some amped up super-toxin."

 

link to original thread on reddit:

link

 

 

 

 

[reedknoll]

A warframe is only playable if it is "superstrong". All warframes must have the ability to clear the whole map with the press of a button, without any trade-offs or disadvantages of whatsoever. No sarcasm. I just want effortless fun.

[taiiat]

heh, Metacomplaints. anways.

 

this is also the same Reddit that says Hek deals more Damage per Shot than Vaykor Hek, though.

 

 

one of the primary Dataminers for the Warframe sub pointed out something to me one time that i thought was interesting:

he'd datamined a Drop Chance to prove that the number hadn't been touched at all and people are just nuts - i commented that i thought this was obvious and there's no reason why anyone should have thought otherwise, and basically it should be common knowledge.

he pointed out something along the lines of "wait, you actually know what you're doing with Warframe and understand what's going on? why are you on this Sub then?".

 

i chuckled.

[Pride]

yet in practice just today i was using spore with hikou prime to shred targets like they were nothing. later ill upload some short clips i took while goofing off on ceres  and in the void.

[Helch0rn]

From my experience it seems to be possible to spread and stack toxin by spreading more spores. Meaning, if I pop 2 spores I apply 2 toxin procs to surrounding enemys

For example I use a 1 forma Ignis with Gas damage (since gas adds a toxin proc with additional aoe)

After sporing a group of enemys I am able to burst them down with my ignis in about 1 second

[Burnthesteak87]

Maybe its theory isn't all correct, but this doesn't cancel the fact Saryn now is pretty strong.
And surely more fair and funny than the previous version.
So, haters gonna hate, but I'm gonna enjoy it.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[TheBrsrkr]

If Miasma doesn't have a toxin proc at the end, why not just give it one? It would help out a lot in the damage department.

[DSMatticus]

Wow.

 

You fail at math...really really hard...

 

Proof:

Enemy has 10k HP.  You have 100 DPS.

You proc viral, enemy has 5k HP.

100% DPS increase is 200 DPS.

 

-50% of ANY number besides 400 is not equal to +100% of 100.

 

 

So while I understand what you meant to say, they're not identical.  Not even in the slightest.

Let me make it simple for you. If the enemy has X health and you deal Y damage per shot, it will take you X/Y shots to kill that enemy. If something doubles your damage (2Y), then it will take you X/(2Y) shots to kill that enemy. If something halves the enemy's hitpoints (X/2), it will take you (X/2)/Y shots to kill that enemy. Fun fact: X/(2Y) = (X/2)/Y. They are the same damn thing. However many shots it took you to kill the enemy before, it will take half that many after doubling your damage. However many shots it took you to kill the enemy before, it will take half that many after halving their hitpoints. That is true for all X and for all Y. Because they do the exact same thing. Exact same.

 

If you are conceptualizing viral procs as dealing damage (which I suspect is the problem here), you are conceptualizing them wrong. Viral procs do exactly zero damage; they half the enemy's current and maximum hitpoints for their duration, and then when they end they double whatever hitpoints the enemy has left. If you slap a viral proc on someone and let it wear off without dealing any damage to them, they will have exactly as many hitpoints when the viral proc wears off as they did before you put it on them. If you slap a viral proc on someone and then murder them, it will take exactly half as much damage as it would have had you not put the viral proc on them at all and dealt the same amoun. if you slap a viral proc on someone and then deal non-fatal damage to them, when the proc wears off they will have lost twice as many hitpoints as they would have if you had not put the viral proc on them at all and dealt the same amount of damage. Viral procs are not damage, they are a damage multiplying debuff, and they are worth exactly +100%. Full stop, end of discussion. That's how they work and what they do. Putting a viral proc on someone is exactly like coating them with molecular prime (except molecular prime comes with extra bonuses).

Edited November 7, 2015 by DSMatticus

[Pacheon]

The skills need overall some energy consumption lowering.

Even running a 175% efficiency with decent duration and avg. strength, I am always out of energy after 4-5 waves / minutes on solo.

 

Spores taking too long to being imbued on the enemy host. Players are killing them way too fast and ruining the combo and the spread of any kind of Saryn action.

 

You guys actually killed Saryn with this "balancing". Even Rebecca was disappointed on the second devstream test run.

Sure you can go up to higher damage values even without heavy caliber, but hell, you take 4x times the time to get there... where a simple "press once 4" turned into "aim for a freaking fast enemy, wait till the spore gets imbued -> hek, someone killed it already, redo step 1 - 2 -> try to pop that spore with melee (yea, nice joke ... reduced health but forcing melee) or rifle -> try to get miasma as close as possible".

Pathetical calling this as "fun".

 

Addition: Oh and yeah, having absolutely no chance getting my spores on enemies nor getting popped whenever a hydroid/ember/whatever-direct-frame-keeps-hitting-stuff is within my range.

My abilities are totally worthless and not getting in action, over the whole match.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Pacheon

[TheBrsrkr]

Learn me this, OP. If we all knew Miasma was supposed to be a DoT nuke, and we all knew it would be removed, and we all knew DE doesn't want any Nukey McNukerson frames around, why would you expect it to be like the old Miasma?

[Leriel]

The reason that current Saryn is able to kill high level enemies is due to the Spore and Hikou + Concealed Explosive combo. You may bring other AoE weapons for the combo but Hikou spreads the Spores relatively quickly such that there'll be a dozen of spores on each enemy. The number of spores increases exponentially with more enemies around, thus making Spore a very good damage dealing ability in Survival and Defense mission. The utility of Viral proc is undeniably good. 

 

However in terms of the damage capability, it relies heavily on the numbers of enemies and the weapon that can spread the spores very quickly. The current problem lies with the restricting mechanic of the Toxin spread which basically resets the amount of Toxin damage you are stacking on the primary host after you pop the first spore on it. Toxin proc from AoE weapon doesn't seem to add to the Toxin damage spread after hitting the first spore, which might be a bug or probably due to the fact that all 3 spores are detonated simultaneously. Lanka is the only weapon that I found being able to stack up moderate toxin damage on the host before accidentally hitting the spore.

 

Though the idea of stacking ludicrous amount of Toxin damage before spreading it is nice but it is near impossible to replicate in-game. The time spent to even build up 2 stacks of toxin damage is impractical since  1) enemies dies too quickly unless your weapon/teammates are unable to kill them fast enough in endless high level run    2) accidentally spread the spore (you basically can't even afford to hit the enemy with a Toxin proc without popping the spores after the chain-reaction of spores being spread.)

 

tldr: If you want to see nice numbers from Spores, try running Survival/Defense mission using weapons that can spread spores quickly, don't even bother trying to stack Toxin damage. The mechanics on Toxin damage spread is impractical. You can afford to solo high level endless mission but be prepare for massive frame rate drop if you have a crappy computer. 

Edited November 7, 2015 by Leriel

[Sci_Ant]

Just here to give my 2 cents after playing with Saryn for a day or 2.

 

I'm actually liking this rework, being able to use her first 3 abilities together synergystically is a nice change from always feeling like I'm forced to use Miasma all the time.

 

Sure Miamsma got nerfed, but I'd rather have 3 abilites to have fun with than just one press 4 to win ability.

 

I'm loving using my zerker Tipedo with Toxic Lash, Sporing an enemy in a group and going ham on them just to see a never ending spiral of viral and toxin. :D

 

Thanks DE, this is a good rework and I'm sure ppl will find ways to use her abilites in end game scenarios too without having to depend only on Miasma anymore.

 

Sci out.

 

*Flameshields up*

Edited November 7, 2015 by Sci_Ant

[Lord_Xenon]

Saryn is trash now.

Reduced EHP resulted in less durability.

Miasma was make to next useless.

To 'buff' miasma we need other powers. Which take time, but more important energy.

And to give it the next hit, you need to +all stats, else you are gonna #*($%%@ with either range, damage, efficiency or duration. Oh wait... there are 2057567+ +stat mods for all categories out! And we have 596767 slots we can put them on. Oh no... we DON'T!

 

It feel right now like 1/8 of the power like before. 1/2 of the damage as before, multiplied that you can only do 1/2 miasma-combos with it AND you have to waste more slots, either your durability goes way down or your @(*()$ the 'strong' miasma-combo.

 

And for the time taken to kill such targets(especially single ones), a weapon is far superior as the BS called Miasma now. Maybe I should make some tyl-regor runs with those Miasma fanboys. Just with the exception, that they don't allowed to use melee/weapons at all. Because Tyl is easy and the super-strong saryn-combo he should be easy win.

[PowerofTwo]

Right there's like 6 topics up on the subject so i'll just drop this here in case of merger and hoping DE will see it.

 

I like the new saryn, quite alot actualy, not going to use her in grps with clanies since she's doesn't stack up to other damage frames atm, but as solo play, she's fun. 

 

Not only is she fun, i feel like she HAS potential she's just drawn back but one fatal flaw, you're "suposed" to go into meele, on a squishy frame with no CC immunity, that is just in no way viable to do past even T2 levels, BUT how about we just have toxic lash affect Glaive / Cerata throw?.

[ShortCat]

Don't play Saryn much, don't even have a potato on her, thus not able to test her properly. So I have a question for people who played her after rework: now that she relies on on viral and toxic procks that much, how does she perform agains Healers who suck all status effects and have high resistance against those procs?

[MumblesMcphatty]

So .... Where's the debunking exactly?

All I see is some complaining about having to melee enemies.

Which actually isn't the only option - I had a hilarious evening with Toxic Flight and bullet-jumping while Huras cloaked.

[Judgebanks]

OP: You forgot got to throw around some wild incorrect mathematics based off of feelings.

[Heatnix.]

So much denial in here. All these posts seem to just support blindly every change DE makes. They can show you all in your face cold, hard evidence and you'd still cover your ears and eyes and deny it. What the hell is wrong with you all? Saryn is completely all over the place stat wise and her skills are messed up just to create artificial complexity.

 

"No nukers" we still have nukers and they are really good at what they do which is way faster and efficient than Saryn right now.

"You have to melee" with those god damn stats? She can't take damage at high levels. Do you guys even go out of Venus or Void Tower 1?

"Use Gas Ignis" So Saryn HAS to be locked into one weapon to be useful? That sounds like bad design if she needs a crutch to be able to do stuff.

"OP is elitist and wrong" Look who's posting. All of these "we are always right. DE is always right." users. sheesh.

 

Lots of frames kill faster than Saryn, tank more damage, have skills that shine on their own and compliment others without a forced combo. By the time you set up the one combo, someone else already cleared up. But hey, you guys keep on denial. Just like "proving us wrong doesn't make you right", pretending that there's no problems doesn't make it go away.

[Rhaenxys]

Right there's like 6 topics up on the subject so i'll just drop this here in case of merger and hoping DE will see it.

 

I like the new saryn, quite alot actualy, not going to use her in grps with clanies since she's doesn't stack up to other damage frames atm, but as solo play, she's fun. 

 

Not only is she fun, i feel like she HAS potential she's just drawn back but one fatal flaw, you're "suposed" to go into meele, on a squishy frame with no CC immunity, that is just in no way viable to do past even T2 levels, BUT how about we just have toxic lash affect Glaive / Cerata throw?.

Funny, i just made a thread about how toxic lash doesnt affect cerata / glaive type weapons before reading your post, hope they change this.