[Suggestion] (Possible?) Solution To The Melee Issue

[Nazrethim]

Hello everyone!

This is gonna be one of those unpopular threads but I feel, as a melee focused player, is the right thing to do about the current status of melee in Conclave.

 

Many players I encounter (who prefer gunplay) complain that melee is overpowered, and they are partially right, there ARE weapons in that category, but not all melee weapons are op. You've heard these weapons before: Heavy blades, kittags, fangs etcetera, and there is a reason for that: Those weapons reward mindless spamming over technique.

On the other hand there are weapons that are worthless, either because the stats are too low, the stances are terrible or both.

Then we have weapons in the midle, like swords, dual swords and tonfas, those weapons deal a lot of damage on quickmelees but the stances are, with a single exception (Iron phoenix), useless.

 

Finally my suggestion:

Nerf almost, if not all, melee weapons damage and remove knockdowns and staggers from slams and quickmelee BUT buff all stances multipliers on the non-e-spam combos to deal higher damage than they currently have, maybe escalating so longer combos deal more damage as you perform them (attack 1 deals normal damage> attack 2 deals 50% extra damage>attack 3 75% and so on) and add more staggers and knockdowns to mid-to-long combos.

[AsMadAsItGets]

Not that I'm trying to invalidate your opinion, however I strongly disagree.

There was a time where heavy melee weapons were probably the most broken thing to date, I think the way they've fixed them is pretty good.

Also, with the speed at which players move, the range of firearms vs melee, I think nerfing them would completely invalidate them.

Martial Magnetism, knockdown times and range were a huge issue and in my opinion that's no longer the case.

However I do find there are quite a few melee  weapons that are underpowered, most of them have an advantage of having an elemental damage type however, which more than compensates for their low physical damage.

As far as spamming heavy weapons goes, it is pretty much a death sentence for the user.

[Trichouette]

The problem right now is more that melee are overpowered for regular level enemies and underpowered in high level.

Just my opinion...

But yeah stance should be more useful and anyway, nothing is balanced in this game.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Melee is overpowered. But that is because the system was not designed for competitive play.

If they actually standardized the system and handpicked combos for each class of weapon that not only was powerful but beared a skill gap. Or at least renovating the entire system then it would work.

 

Melee's downfall is in it's design,

[Nazrethim]

Not that I'm trying to invalidate your opinion, however I strongly disagree.

There was a time where heavy melee weapons were probably the most broken thing to date, I think the way they've fixed them is pretty good.

Also, with the speed at which players move, the range of firearms vs melee, I think nerfing them would completely invalidate them.

Martial Magnetism, knockdown times and range were a huge issue and in my opinion that's no longer the case.

However I do find there are quite a few melee  weapons that are underpowered, most of them have an advantage of having an elemental damage type however, which more than compensates for their low physical damage.

As far as spamming heavy weapons goes, it is pretty much a death sentence for the user.

I don't suggest a nerf without compensation (like the previous massive nerf). I'm talking nerfing specifically quickmelee and jumpslam and make combos more rewarding. I'm sick of training to get better, to perform my combos flawlessly and then watching all crumble because another dude with a jethammer, or two blades-that-pretend-to-be-tonfas or two plastic swords wins because.... jumpspam and/or e-mash is  stronger than combos. That's why I mentioned buffing combo multipliers to do more damage than they do now, but leaving quickmelee as a last, repeat: LAST resort for the gunplayers, who have the range advantage anyway. Skill and practice rewarded with damage not mindlessly mashing buttons.

 

The problem right now is more that melee are overpowered for regular level enemies and underpowered in high level.

Just my opinion...

But yeah stance should be more useful and anyway, nothing is balanced in this game.

This is Conclave, we only face other Tenno.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Nazrethim

[Trichouette]

This is Conclave, we only face other Tenno.

Sorry dude, once again i didn't see the fact this is pvp feedback subforum.

I'm not the first one to make that mistake and i won't be the last one...

[Nighttide77]

I like the idea.  We still need some way to help melee players keep on top of jumpy players, though.

[Nazrethim]

I like the idea.  We still need some way to help melee players keep on top of jumpy players, though.

I suggested in another thread a mod that reduces mobility on hit (that you have already answered and comented, thank you). A change in the direction of skill+reliable mods and melee could really shine for those that invest time and practice in it.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Nazrethim

[Nighttide77]

I suggested in another thread a mod that reduces mobility on hit (that you have already answered and comented, thank you). A change in the direction of skill+reliable mods and melee could really shine for those that invest time and practice in it.

Yeah, the base mechanics of melee for PvP could use work, and the OP's suggestion could be a good step forward.

[Shin]

I dont think melee is bad right now, some weapons could use a damage buff sure but i've seen people using Melee weapons and they didnt suck at either chasing or landing combo's.

 

Its all about practice i guess.

 

Edit: The only way i see the melee working properly is as i suggested long ago, changing the basics of the melee combo's. When you come close to an enemy, if your target reticule is on the enemy, you shouldnt charge into the enemy and went inside of them. Instead, combo's should stay on target so long as you are colliding with their hitbox. Honestly, we wouldnt have go through the Martial Magnetism mess if this was integrated with Melee 2.0. 99% of the Stances does this ,rest doesnt have charge etc like attacks.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Shin

[Rhaenxys]

Melee is completely useless against someone who knows how to move, just bulletjump do some air glide or wall latch and you can avoid them all the time, martial fury is not even enough to make them useful.

 

Hysteria is a completely joke now and a total waste of energy with such pathetic range and energy comsuption.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Rhaenxys

[Nazrethim]

I dont think melee is bad right now, some weapons could use a damage buff sure but i've seen people using Melee weapons and they didnt suck at either chasing or landing combo's.

 

Its all about practice i guess.

 

Edit: The only way i see the melee working properly is as i suggested long ago, changing the basics of the melee combo's. When you come close to an enemy, if your target reticule is on the enemy, you shouldnt charge into the enemy and went inside of them. Instead, combo's should stay on target so long as you are colliding with their hitbox. Honestly, we wouldnt have go through the Martial Magnetism mess if this was integrated with Melee 2.0. 99% of the Stances does this ,rest doesnt have charge etc like attacks.

I consider melee damage decent right now, but the problem is that mindless spamming and jumpslaming is way more effective that most stances. That allows gunplayers to unleash hell on you from range, then use the "my quickmelee is stronger than combo" or "jumpslam" cards to win, even if the melee player managed to dodge the hailstorm of bullets. I play melee 100% of the time and that's what happens, the only reason I manage to kill and be competitive is because I spent spare time in Coba, Earth without activating the mission, just using my unmodded (stance only) melee weapon and practicing my combos until I get the timing right (for some combos it's a split-second hold or pause). Think like a gunplayer who trains with his bow/sniper/whatever non-meta weapon to get better, then all that effort and technique goes down the toilet because "heh a karak or gorgon spews more bullets with zero skill required".

Then of course, we don't have any way of preventing our targets escape nor the survivability needed to chase them, and we have only 2 reliable melee mods (Martial Fury since the buff and Stand Ground which is situational at best) but that's not enough (hence the other thread where I suggest melee mods)

Also, I would like to see your suggestion, could you please link? (this thread is about a change that could reasonable be deployed in an update, a gamechanger easier to pull than a melee system rework)

Edited November 9, 2015 by Nazrethim

[HC217]

but de already nerfed my dunkhammer, don't do it again, i can only 1shot squishies in martial law while channelling now. totally balanced.

at most, i'd say reduce the range of the aoe knockdown, but buff the damage at the center, to reward proper aiming. can't tell you how sad i am that all the ash primes take 5 dunks to kill

[Nazrethim]

but de already nerfed my dunkhammer, don't do it again, i can only 1shot squishies in martial law while channelling now. totally balanced.

at most, i'd say reduce the range of the aoe knockdown, but buff the damage at the center, to reward proper aiming. can't tell you how sad i am that all the ash primes take 5 dunks to kill

5? I play Ash prime an non-channeled slamkittags only require 3 hits to kill, and not direct hits, only the AoE. Also, if you tell me you USE YOUR COMBOS I can accept what you say, if you only jumpslam the instant you notice someone nearby... well let's say that speaks of what kind of player you are. I'm suggesting reward skill and proper stance usage over mindless spam, which is pretty much  what 100% of kittag do.

[HC217]

5? I play Ash prime an non-channeled slamkittags only require 3 hits to kill, and not direct hits, only the AoE. Also, if you tell me you USE YOUR COMBOS I can accept what you say, if you only jumpslam the instant you notice someone nearby... well let's say that speaks of what kind of player you are. I'm suggesting reward skill and proper stance usage over mindless spam, which is pretty much  what 100% of kittag do.

you telling me getting a pinpoint dunk on a runner isn't hard to pull off? besides, the main reason the jat, and most of the other heavy/knockdown weapons are spammed, is because runners exist. also, on the topic of the jat hits to kill, are you running any of the new armor mods? because the majority of ash p users are running the +shields one, hence the resistance boost. you know, since mobility decreases does almost nothing to what makes ash p good.

[Nazrethim]

you telling me getting a pinpoint dunk on a runner isn't hard to pull off? besides, the main reason the jat, and most of the other heavy/knockdown weapons are spammed, is because runners exist. also, on the topic of the jat hits to kill, are you running any of the new armor mods? because the majority of ash p users are running the +shields one, hence the resistance boost. you know, since mobility decreases does almost nothing to what makes ash p good.

Actually if you go Ash P melee you are gonna need that mobility, and yes runners are a problem that hopefully DE will adress in the near future (I actually suggested a -mobility mod for melee to "root" anyone struck because I know the runner issue). And yes, I used those mods, and are, for melee purposes, garbage, only gunplayers actualy benefit from those mods. The gunner vs melee is an issue I will evade for this thread, this is a melee vs melee, where mindless spam always wins over technique, because, "hey scrub slamspam is better than combos". So I suggest nerfing the hell out of quickmelee and quickslam, and buff stance combos trough the roof to compensate, or are you telling me that you go with the kittag doing combos and ocassionally jumpslaming?

[Phasedragon]

Actually if you go Ash P melee you are gonna need that mobility, and yes runners are a problem that hopefully DE will adress in the near future (I actually suggested a -mobility mod for melee to "root" anyone struck because I know the runner issue). And yes, I used those mods, and are, for melee purposes, garbage, only gunplayers actualy benefit from those mods. The gunner vs melee is an issue I will evade for this thread, this is a melee vs melee, where mindless spam always wins over technique, because, "hey scrub slamspam is better than combos". So I suggest nerfing the hell out of quickmelee and quickslam, and buff stance combos trough the roof to compensate, or are you telling me that you go with the kittag doing combos and ocassionally jumpslaming?

This just doesn't work. If melee needs a buff, melee needs a buff. You don't buff a frame and say "oh hey guys just don't use that frame with guns, it's meant for melee". For every melee ash p user, there are a dozen gun ash p users. Trying to say that ash p is fine because he can be used for melee is completely irrelevant because he is not guaranteed to be used for melee. If you want something like this, the best way to approach it is to have some mod that locks you to melee and gives you a buff.

[Arcira]

Did I miss something? Last time I have played conclave every melee weapon had lower dps then any kind of ranged.

What exactly is op on melee?

[Nazrethim]

This just doesn't work. If melee needs a buff, melee needs a buff. You don't buff a frame and say "oh hey guys just don't use that frame with guns, it's meant for melee". For every melee ash p user, there are a dozen gun ash p users. Trying to say that ash p is fine because he can be used for melee is completely irrelevant because he is not guaranteed to be used for melee. If you want something like this, the best way to approach it is to have some mod that locks you to melee and gives you a buff.

The Ash prime mention is just to counter his argument that kittag can't kill an ash prime, when in fact it just takes 2 to 3 non-hits to kill, not to mention the knocdown.

What I propose is in fact a buff to pure melee. Read the op: Nerf melee weapons damage but buff Stance combos to deal more damage than they do now. That way, quickmelee will be only a last, repeat: LAST resort for gunplayers, not a cheap wincard when they couldn't evade the full melee player, therefore meleeplay (that is, using combos) gets a buff and spam tactics lose ground. Funny thing is, this would actually buff melee in PvE as well since the weapons stats are reduced in Conclave only but the stances get a buff so the PvE side will see tremendous buff. Kill Two Ospreys with the same Spira.

 

Did I miss something? Last time I have played conclave every melee weapon had lower dps then any kind of ranged.

What exactly is op on melee?

Depending where you play, melee is either op (consoles) or VERY weak outside of spammy weapons (PC, Kittag, Fang, Glaives) which are okay for gunplay because they NEVER get close (unless they use a shotgun) but broken for melee (as stated above, Espam and Jumpslam spam are way better than combos)

 

So, this "nerf" is actually a buff

Edited November 11, 2015 by Nazrethim

[(XBOX)LastxMOHICANx]

I'm an Xbox ! player, so it sounds like you guys are in PC which means were behind you guys in the update. You guys lucky have gotten MARTIAL MAGNESTISM taken out,, and we unfortunatley are here praying diligently with anticipation until its taken out for the consoles. i've played nothing, literally nothing but PVP for 2 wks straight, an ack brunt , silve and aegis, or any another weapon that uses the final harbringer stance, with martial magnestism is impossible to defend one on one, theres a clan of guys on xbox that will go into annihilation with nothing but that equipped and get-20-25 kills easily with maybe, 3-4 deaths. What makes no sense to me is if your going to put out the statistics or spec on weapons, (Ex. slash damage-10, puncture dmg-15, impact-20, attack speed- 1.40) so that i can choose properly between a faster weapon and a slower one. Why then have the ability in conclave, for a stance mod, like finanl harbringer, that in game throws out all the specs that u used to guide your decsion on a melee weapon. To me its pointless, not only a wste of time for the person who figured the specs out, but alos to me thats going by those specs, to be frustrated when the ack brunt, which is slower and less powerful in every category compared to the reaper prime in console conclave, to literally obliterate the reaper prime in speed moving 4 times faster than any other melee weapon in the game. If u tell me the ack brunt's speed is 1.4 in conclave, no matter what stance u put on it , keep it 1.4, so that i dont be misled

[Nazrethim]

I'm an Xbox ! player, so it sounds like you guys are in PC which means were behind you guys in the update. You guys lucky have gotten MARTIAL MAGNESTISM taken out,, and we unfortunatley are here praying diligently with anticipation until its taken out for the consoles. i've played nothing, literally nothing but PVP for 2 wks straight, an ack brunt , silve and aegis, or any another weapon that uses the final harbringer stance, with martial magnestism is impossible to defend one on one, theres a clan of guys on xbox that will go into annihilation with nothing but that equipped and get-20-25 kills easily with maybe, 3-4 deaths. What makes no sense to me is if your going to put out the statistics or spec on weapons, (Ex. slash damage-10, puncture dmg-15, impact-20, attack speed- 1.40) so that i can choose properly between a faster weapon and a slower one. Why then have the ability in conclave, for a stance mod, like finanl harbringer, that in game throws out all the specs that u used to guide your decsion on a melee weapon. To me its pointless, not only a wste of time for the person who figured the specs out, but alos to me thats going by those specs, to be frustrated when the ack brunt, which is slower and less powerful in every category compared to the reaper prime in console conclave, to literally obliterate the reaper prime in speed moving 4 times faster than any other melee weapon in the game. If u tell me the ack brunt's speed is 1.4 in conclave, no matter what stance u put on it , keep it 1.4, so that i dont be misled

Yeah, Ack&Brunt have very good damage, both here on PC and, judging by what you say, in console. The point I'm trying to make here, is that people mindlessly mashing melee button are better at melee than people who bother to learn the combos, this goes for the situation where a player unleashes a barrage of bullets that you dodge with much effort, just for him/her smash you with a quickmelee or quickslam or two and kill you, that is VERY wrong. Stances should always win over quickmelee, that's the whole point of stances (well, there's also the cool factor). I bet that probably none of the ack&brunt users you have seen actually uses a combo, instead using e-spam basic combo and wreking everything. Nerfing the weapons, quickmelee and quickslam and buffing the combos that actually require skill would be for the best (that and also adding melee mods, because so far all mods recently released on PC are for ranged weapons)

[Shin]

Also, I would like to see your suggestion, could you please link? (this thread is about a change that could reasonable be deployed in an update, a gamechanger easier to pull than a melee system rework)

I imagine it wouldnt be that hard to implement. You see in any other game where melee combo's are relevant, your hits sticks to your enemies. In Warframe, your combos or hits goes STRAIGHT inside of your enemies and mosf of the cases you just complately miss them and you got absolutely no way to stop or cancel your combos which is downright infuriating. This situation gave birth to Martial Magnetism, while on paper it sounded like a good idea but it was poorly implemented and caused problems so it got removed. 

 

What im suggesting is, So long as you keep your target reticule on your enemy, combos or hits should not go past your enemies. Basically Martial Magnetism without computer aided target lock.

 

To make this change relevant;

 

- A mod which when you hit someone let say 2 times, their movement speed and Bullet Jump values drops 25% so that you have a chance at taking atleast one or two swings before they bullet jump or roll into the next universe.

 

- A mod that helps you go into Melee mod faster.

 

-Buff the movement speed and bullet jump speed of the melee users if they are in Melee mod by lets say 10%.

 

-Turn the blocking into perfect block. So, when you chase someone, all incoming damage should be blocked perfectly wihout dealing any damage maybe with the exception of heavy weapons like Daikyuu, Opticor etc.

 

And finally maybe make it so we can chose not to equip our guns so that we can have Further movement speed on us. Though this would buff the Glaive users a lot which doesnt look like a good idea at all.

 

Anyway these are what i can think about the current situation. At the moment only relevant melee weapons are Sword&Shields, Scindo in tight places and Glaives. No melee weapons is more useful than these ones and to be honest its quite boring to see the same weapons.

 

For now im hoping that Charge attacks bringing something fresh to the table.

[Nazrethim]

I imagine it wouldnt be that hard to implement. You see in any other game where melee combo's are relevant, your hits sticks to your enemies. In Warframe, your combos or hits goes STRAIGHT inside of your enemies and mosf of the cases you just complately miss them and you got absolutely no way to stop or cancel your combos which is downright infuriating. This situation gave birth to Martial Magnetism, while on paper it sounded like a good idea but it was poorly implemented and caused problems so it got removed. 

 

What im suggesting is, So long as you keep your target reticule on your enemy, combos or hits should not go past your enemies. Basically Martial Magnetism without computer aided target lock.

 

To make this change relevant;

 

- A mod which when you hit someone let say 2 times, their movement speed and Bullet Jump values drops 25% so that you have a chance at taking atleast one or two swings before they bullet jump or roll into the next universe.

 

- A mod that helps you go into Melee mod faster.

 

-Buff the movement speed and bullet jump speed of the melee users if they are in Melee mod by lets say 10%.

 

-Turn the blocking into perfect block. So, when you chase someone, all incoming damage should be blocked perfectly wihout dealing any damage maybe with the exception of heavy weapons like Daikyuu, Opticor etc.

 

And finally maybe make it so we can chose not to equip our guns so that we can have Further movement speed on us. Though this would buff the Glaive users a lot which doesnt look like a good idea at all.

 

Anyway these are what i can think about the current situation. At the moment only relevant melee weapons are Sword&Shields, Scindo in tight places and Glaives. No melee weapons is more useful than these ones and to be honest its quite boring to see the same weapons.

 

For now im hoping that Charge attacks bringing something fresh to the table.

Actually there are viable melee weapons: Kronen+Gemini Cross is devastating, should you succeed in hitting the target with it's combos. Kogake with the Grim Fury stance has a one-hit-kill roundhouse kick, however is VERY difficult to pull off due to the almost non-existen hitbox and fast attack speed (this combo requires a HOLD so timing is on the 0.7s for that hold). Nikana with both Blind Justice or Tranquil Cleave is powerful if you know when to use which combo. Fists in general with the Gaia's tragedy stance (however one of the combos it's almost imposible to control). The weapon you see most of the time are E-spam friendly weapons, that's why there isn't much variety, that's why I say nerf quickmelee, quickslam and the basic E-spam combo of every weapon/stance into oblivion but buff the moves that require actuall skill.

If you have a nice idea for a melee mod check out this thread and suggest any cool idea you may have:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/549293-suggestion-melee-mods/

[(PSN)Xx-Ribbium-xX]

I wish they would if you guys want melee to stay overpowered that's fine however I'm just gonna keep using hysteria to keep killing people who spam melee now I did an experiment with melee spammers on the old Europa conclave map and on one of the high platforms I just stood there shooting but instead of bringing out a gun the guy kept trying to jump up and melee me and every time I just kept using hysteria so after about 20 kills later he left instead of using his boltor prime or any of his other guns he had on him so it just goes to show how people require an overpowered weapons to win 

[Nazrethim]

I wish they would if you guys want melee to stay overpowered that's fine however I'm just gonna keep using hysteria to keep killing people who spam melee now I did an experiment with melee spammers on the old Europa conclave map and on one of the high platforms I just stood there shooting but instead of bringing out a gun the guy kept trying to jump up and melee me and every time I just kept using hysteria so after about 20 kills later he left instead of using his boltor prime or any of his other guns he had on him so it just goes to show how people require an overpowered weapons to win 

I never ask for overpowered weapons, I said "nerf quickmelee and quickslam, which are spammable, buff combos that require actual skill to pull off, and buff "pure" melee survivability, posibly in the form of channeling mods". I don't want overpowered weapons, that is toxic to the game, I want more skillplay and less spamplay, it's the same reason I hate automatic weapons but have high respect for people who use bows, snipers, shotguns and grenade launchers.