You Know De, As A Grand Master Founder Who's Played Since Closed Beta And Was Getting Kinda Bored...

[MagPrime]

The raids to me don't really make sense from a gameplay perspective, but it's a personal gripe. Why would I want 10 people to solve a puzzle? Too many cooks not only spoil the broth, but ruin the atmosphere of the kitchen itself. Most of my raids have been full of disconnections, and people shouting and spamming abilities every which way, with half of the players running around like someone shot their pet dog. If I wanted a strategic mission with high level enemies, I'd like to have a Void Puzzle mode...not a damned raid. Hell, LoR doesn't even need you to kill a single enemy except for the final boss. That's not a raid. That's a "CC everything to the point where they might as well not exist puzzle solving 10 man lagfest bonanza".

They could use a lot of fleshing out, I agree.

 

Having a solo option would be wonderful as well.  I'd never leave. XD

[Eftycchia]

Ya'll talking about Jordas Verdict being hard as all hell while i'm apparently sitting here trying to get into my tenth run of it but haven't found a single squad that even knows what to do in it.

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

^ don't do raids with randoms. lol...unless you have to

[MagPrime]

Ya'll talking about Jordas Verdict being hard as all hell while i'm apparently sitting here trying to get into my tenth run of it but haven't found a single squad that even knows what to do in it.

...I know of a Raid group that would take you.

[7Lions]

^ don't do raids with randoms. lol...unless you have to

 

Thats the thing about WF raids, if you don't have a designated team of raiders that communicate on a regular basis via TS or Skype, its practically impossible to complete, as everyone is just running around like headless chickens tryna figure out what to do. But once you've figured out the puzzles and the premises of the raid, it just becomes a monotonous chore of, stand here, hack that, damage this, all via arbitrary puzzle solving scenarios. The only replay value of that is for the Arcane and not for the enjoyment of the mission it self.

 

I'm going to reference Mass Effect 3 assuming most of us have played it. The final skirmish before the terribad ending on the big battle field where Shepard has to defend the missile launchers, seeing you fend off hoards of adds coming in all direction, all the while trying to stay alive without getting steam rolled by those massive tank units. Out of the whole ME franchise that battle was the most memorable and EPIC battle ever that I've experience and I absolutely LOVED IT! You had to use every resource and skill at your disposal to stay alive and complete the stage. Even after I finished the game I would constantly replay that mission to try out different strats, hold out points, and approach it differently. For being a slow paced cover based game, the game play instantly threw a monkey wrench into its game play and instantly up the ante and sped up the game play.

 

While WF on the other hand, being a run and gun hoard based game, turns into a monotonous spam fest when it comes to raids instead of expanding upon what it primary game style is based around. It just feels so disconnected to the rest of the WF universe, we're supposed to be badazz space ninjas, but instead we've be downplayed to being badazz space ninjas that isn't even allowed to utilize our arsenal cause it will mess up the flow of the mission and team synergy. 

 

TL:DR - DE should study other games and pull elements from them that keep their player base engaged instead of disgruntled cause its always the same mindless chores over and over and over again. 

[WhiteCopain]

I like DE, and I'm happy the OP found something they enjoy.

 

Doesn't change the fact that IMHO "raids" or any content that forces teaming (Especially with an "obey or die" systems) is a toxic mechanic.

 

If your content is designed such that it's more fun with more people then people will team naturally. Forcing people together because you can't be bothered to scale encounters is... disappointing at best.

 

...And locking an entire reward type behind forced teaming makes the whole thing even worse.

 

Simply put: The more of this that happens the less I want to play.

 

I disagree. The playstyle you want is a lot of easy gameplay where you aren't punished for doing the fight wrong... which basically makes all the mechanics pointless. All that leads to is boring do nothing fights. Fights that are complicated, take teamwork, and have multiple phases, are far more satisfying to complete. When you went and beat Jackal for the first time, you weren't going "YES OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE I BEAT THAT HOLY CRAP" you were like "Meh, time to go." If you look at the big raid bosses and when people beat them in harder MMOs, you see people cheering and laughing because it's a big deal. Having content that is a challenge and a goal is really fantastic.

 

They could have easily done it the way you wanted and made it the four man golem but with more HP, but then I'd be like "Yeah whatever" and not do it.

 

 

too bad nobody likes archwing

 

after watching the whole video I gotta add:

 

WTF? I would have liked to see the meeting where they planned this. Maybe someone lost the notes on the interesting gameplay and just replaced it with a few pages of "activate vaporizer, hack console"...

 

I love Archwing. I love it a lot. I like it more then the base game honestly because I love moving fast. It's not deep or complicated (until this fight where it has a lot of good mechanics), but that just takes time. Give it time, old Warframe wasn't anything to write home about either.

 

 

The LoR raid was alright but JV raid is awful. I suggest you actually, you know, play JV before making judgement on it. The third stage is complicated yes, but it's literally all about memorization - it's complicated in the way memorizing a phone book is complicated, and equally as fun.

I, and most experienced raiders derive a lot of fun from that. It's far more interesting then "Hit the big weak point, get your loot, leave"

 

 

My main thing about the raid is that it's not newplayer friendly. And by new player i mean experienced raiders.

 

It's full of cheap knock-backs and insta-kills. It gives little to no context on what to do nor even attempt to hint you towards the right direction.And when you're going to force teamwork onto inexperience player without guiding them accordingly, you're going to turn away alot of people.

 

Now before you say "It's not meant to be noob friendly" then why does the last raid have a nightmare version if it's suppose to be made for vets already?

 

 

I personally would want to do the raid however every PuG group wants experience players so sadly, none for me.

I can agree that the game needs a bit more middle ground, but to be fair, it's good to have an end game content rather then jack all. It's something designed for the experience player and a group of co-ordinated people. Not a bunch of pubs bum rushing it.

 

 

 

All I see when I play raids is just a long and boring space-sudoku with terrible rewards. I guess people actually prefer puzzles over gameplay.

 

...Full healing your shields instantly when you take damage isn't a good reward? Oh my bad, it's not super sparkly, right..

Edited November 19, 2015 by WhiteCopain

[WhiteCopain]

That's my biggest issue with the raids atm. It's not a group of players teaming up to take on extremely powerful, challenging enemies, it's a bunch of players spamming abilities while trying to do puzzles, and getting pissed off at each other instead of enjoying slaughtering stuff for loot. It doesn't fit the 'feel' of Warframe at all, imo.

 

LoR is... reasonable, at least it's a half fun boss fight at the end, the puzzles are quick and don't require memorization of steps, and the whole mission is pretty quick (~30 mins in a half-decent pug) with pretty good rewards, especially with the rare/reinforced containers.

 

JV is long and boring so far, and locked behind a material farm which is extremely punishing for players without an active clan. Its actually pretty easy if you can remember where everything is (most of my issues are in the last phase) but it takes forever. The length of the hacks in earlier phases are wayy too long; if you can maintain the vaporizers for a minute, there's no need to keep doing it for longer and longer, no new challenges presented. Even with all of the consoles active it takes way too long. And the 3-strike 'rule' extends the length 'artificially', not really adding any challenge (done it once can easily do it 3 times) although admittedly making the inside group's job memorizing the map layouts 'harder'. But as someone above pointed out, it's just harder to memorize what to do, it's not any harder to actually do it.

 

Right now JV takes like 2 hours; obviously we'll get it down to maybe half that when everyone knows exactly what to do. But the work:reward ratio is terrible, even if you want the new Arcanes it's easier/more efficient to be patient and farm for different valued objects to trade with the poor sods running JV.

The fight you seem to want to have is "hit boss's weak point, he dies." 99% of the game's content is that, what's wrong with having something where I can't run in, press 4, and instantly win--- oh right, generic bad players..

 

 

 

While WF on the other hand, being a run and gun hoard based game, turns into a monotonous spam fest when it comes to raids instead of expanding upon what it primary game style is based around. It just feels so disconnected to the rest of the WF universe, we're supposed to be badazz space ninjas, but instead we've be downplayed to being badazz space ninjas that isn't even allowed to utilize our arsenal cause it will mess up the flow of the mission and team synergy. 

 

TL:DR - DE should study other games and pull elements from them that keep their player base engaged instead of disgruntled cause its always the same mindless chores over and over and over again. 

I mean, the vast majority of the content is a boring snooze fest where you run in and press 4, just like you're asking for. Why not just go play that? If you want powered up versions, take off your mods, boom bazzazle.

 

 

And they did study other games, you know, those hugely successful ones like WoW or FF14 which have more then "hit the week spot because I'm a 'badazz' space ninja"

Edited November 19, 2015 by WhiteCopain

[BPNPC]

I, and most experienced raiders derive a lot of fun from that. It's far more interesting then "Hit the big weak point, get your loot, leave"

 

And here we come to the crux of the problem - DE can't design boss fights. At all. EVERY single one of their boss fights is artificially prolonged by invincibility phases because they can't design a boss that properly scales with player gear. I think DE designed their raids to be as puzzle-like as possible because they do not know how to design a FUN raid.

 

Raid design shouldn't come to either "memorize this phonebook of information" or "boring boss fight that takes ages because of invincibility phases."

[WhiteCopain]

And here we come to the crux of the problem - DE can't design boss fights. At all. EVERY single one of their boss fights is artificially prolonged by invincibility phases because they can't design a boss that properly scales with player gear. I think DE designed their raids to be as puzzle-like as possible because they do not know how to design a FUN raid.

 

Raid design shouldn't come to either "memorize this phonebook of information" or "boring boss fight that takes ages because of invincibility phases."

 

 

They could easily make the target dummy that sits there and lets you hit it for five straight minutes, but then it wouldn't be half interesting. It'd be solo'd and boring because it would just be some high HP generic thing.

 

 

You can argue that it wouldn't be and they'd just do things to make it interesting, but once they start making it interesting, you start complaining that it's annoying that you have to think. Goofy.

[BPNPC]

They could easily make the target dummy that sits there and lets you hit it for five straight minutes, but then it wouldn't be half interesting. It'd be solo'd and boring because it would just be some high HP generic thing.

 

 

You can argue that it wouldn't be and they'd just do things to make it interesting, but once they start making it interesting, you start complaining that it's annoying that you have to think. Goofy.

There are quite literally hundreds of MMO Raid bosses in existence. There exist plenty of ways to design bosses without artificially prolonging the fight with invincibility phases OR scaling them health/damage to impossible levels.

 

I have nothing against making "interesting" raids. I have a problem with making raids whose SOLE difficulty comes from memorizing multiple level layouts. It's as difficult as memorizing a thousand digits of pi and equally as interesting, though not nearly as useful.

[WhiteCopain]

There are quite literally hundreds of MMO Raid bosses in existence. There exist plenty of ways to design bosses without artificially prolonging the fight with invincibility phases OR scaling them health/damage to impossible levels.

 

I have nothing against making "interesting" raids. I have a problem with making raids whose SOLE difficulty comes from memorizing multiple level layouts. It's as difficult as memorizing a thousand digits of pi and equally as interesting, though not nearly as useful.

Go ahead and show me a deep and complicated boss fight that isn't memorization, one that you could do your first couple tries, that is also interesting and challenging. Point that one out to me.

[BPNPC]

Go ahead and show me a deep and complicated boss fight that isn't memorization, one that you could do your first couple tries, that is also interesting and challenging. Point that one out to me.

"one that you could do in your first couple of tries"

 

There's no reason for this. It doesn't matter how many attempts it requires to finish a raid, as long as the raid is fun. In fact, it's almost impossible to fail the Normal trials because there's no failure state (save everyone runs out of revives). It took me 3 tries to beat JV, and ONLY because the first two times bugged out. If there were no bugs, my clanmates and I would've beaten JV first round.

 

There are too many raid bosses to count, but as an example I'll throw our Venoxis from WoW. My experience with WoW is limited but I remember how fun the raids were. I remember Venoxis especially because he had an attack where he created a poison maze on the battlefield. You had to navigate the maze without touching the poison (or you take massive damage). The poison maze is IMO an example of a fun, creative mechanic that requires more skill than just memorization.

[WhiteCopain]

There are too many raid bosses to count, but as an example I'll throw our Venoxis from WoW. My experience with WoW is limited but I remember how fun the raids were. I remember Venoxis especially because he had an attack where he created a poison maze on the battlefield. You had to navigate the maze without touching the poison (or you take massive damage). The poison maze is IMO an example of a fun, creative mechanic that requires more skill than just memorization.

Venoxis when he was first released and came out took quite awhile to beat and had people complaining that he was annoying and frustrating to fight.

 

 

Also a maze is literally memorization and thought, not skill. Pressing your W key as you move your mouse isn't a skill, and it isn't going to get you through a maze. Knowing the layout and how to move, will.

[BPNPC]

Also a maze is literally memorization and thought, not skill. Pressing your W key as you move your mouse isn't a skill

Funny, that's exactly what I've been trying to tell you.

[WhiteCopain]

Funny, that's exactly what I've been trying to tell you.

Which is funny, given you whined that golem was memorization.

[BPNPC]

Which is funny, given you whined that golem was memorization.

Venoxis maze is entirely different from Golem maze. You know EXACTLY where you are going in the former - it's more of an obstacle course than a maze.

 

In any case, I'm not going to argue any more, because this thread is straying. I made a thread earlier this week about how much I hate puzzle raids, with a fair amount of people agreeing. I suggest you read it for more opinions

[Darzk]

The fight you seem to want to have is "hit boss's weak point, he dies." 99% of the game's content is that, what's wrong with having something where I can't run in, press 4, and instantly win--- oh right, generic bad players..

 

I mean, the vast majority of the content is a boring snooze fest where you run in and press 4, just like you're asking for. Why not just go play that? If you want powered up versions, take off your mods, boom bazzazle.

 

And they did study other games, you know, those hugely successful ones like WoW or FF14 which have more then "hit the week spot because I'm a 'badazz' space ninja"

I don't want that at all. (And really, aren't we past accusing people of wanting to only press #4?) I'd love to fight enemies that *cant* be killed by ability spam or a couple of shots from a rifle. Of course, the prefacing issue for that to happen is that you have to actually fight enemies. I was all excited for the release of LoR, gearing up a couple weapons for max DPS, and then discovering that you didn't have to kill anything and Hek went down in 1/3rd of a clip was massively disappointing. They 'fixed' Hek by giving him permanent armor, making him take a clip or two, but it's still an utterly unchallenging final fight.

 

Been ages since I played MMORPGs, but from what I remember the raid trash could actually be a challenge (depending, obviously, on group+gear); you [on your own] couldn't just walk through them wiping them out on your way to go solve the puzzles. Or ignore them entirely.

 

JV tried to bring enemy killing back in, but you still don't fight enemies - you farm them for loot! I mean seriously, WTF, we do enough of that in the main game. This whole 'more farming' being a core mechanic of the raid just utterly infuriates me. I'm not even talking about the injector fragments, the clan requirements, and the resulting terrible player behavior to raid newcomers (all of which is an issue deserving of it's own thread) but the actual mechanic of 'collecting enemy loot to progress' is exactly what we've been doing outside of raids for the past few years.

 

Also a maze is literally memorization and thought, not skill. Pressing your W key as you move your mouse isn't a skill, and it isn't going to get you through a maze. Knowing the layout and how to move, will.

^ happens to be the exact problem with the final Golem phase.

I don't recall Venoxis, but if the maze was static it's a poor example; if it was randomly generated it would be more skill based.

 

Oh, as a footnote; I actually rather enjoyed AW sections of JV. Some puzzle solving while under mild incoming fire from enemies that can't simply be CC-locked away. Teamwork to solve objectives under somewhat dynamic conditions. I also liked the vaporizer mechanic, just disliked the 'supply from enemy loot'.

 

Really, all I'd like to see is injector charges from a different source [have every enemy drop one, but cut spawn rate, and amp enemies by 10-20x (hp+dmg) and immune to cc; or just have a stack of them fairly distant to the objective that players have to run back and forth from while under attack] and have the final phase of Golem a single round with some random generation of the interior map. And cut the hack time in 1/4 (or double-quadruple the bonuses for multiple consoles). End result: More fighting, no farming and less repetition.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Was going to take OP seriously.  then saw him/her accuse another poster for wanting only "press 4 to win."

I hope with every fiber of my being that no one takes you seriously.

 

No point in discussing content with someone who will belittle anyone who disagrees with them.

[WhiteCopain]

Been ages since I played MMORPGs, but from what I remember the raid trash could actually be a challenge (depending, obviously, on group+gear); you [on your own] couldn't just walk through them wiping them out on your way to go solve the puzzles. Or ignore them entirely.

 

It would be pretty easy for them to bring the power of all the Warframes into check, balance all the weapons, and make challenging and fun content far easier to design. But every time they've even slightly nerfed something, it's been a S#&$ show. Coptering got removed and people *@##$ed for months and came up with "fresh ideas" to bring it back. Everyone in this community complains constantly when something gets anything but a buff. Hell people in this topic are complaining they have to think, lol.

 

Was going to take OP seriously.  then saw him/her accuse another poster for wanting only "press 4 to win."

I hope with every fiber of my being that no one takes you seriously.

 

No point in discussing content with someone who will belittle anyone who disagrees with them.

I'm perfectly willing to have a civil discussion. But saying "Man, the fight would be better if the boss was never immune to damage and I could just hit it for twenty minutes" isn't exactly inviting a meaningful discussion.

Edited November 20, 2015 by WhiteCopain