Rhino Changes Feedback [U18 Megathread]

[Evanescent]

Please consider increasing invinciblility absorb phase timer to 6 seconds, and let him draw aggro for the duration.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Please consider increasing invinciblility absorb phase timer to 6 seconds, and let him draw aggro for the duration.

^^^^

[GSDAkatsuki]

Please consider increasing invinciblility absorb phase timer to 6 seconds, and let him draw aggro for the duration.

Only if he is left slightly immobile having to do an animation. Slap on natural talent if you want him to do it faster.

[Ronyn]

Only if he is left slightly immobile having to do an animation. Slap on natural talent if you want him to do it faster.

Wait.....why should he have to be "left slightly immobile" during the animation?

[GSDAkatsuki]

Wait.....why should he have to be "left slightly immobile" during the animation?

Because you are doing an aoe call that is drawing all fire to you. Don't want you to be bullet jumping through a whole map and aggro everything in that 1 skill usage.

[Ronyn]

Because you are doing an aoe call that is drawing all fire to you. Don't want you to be bullet jumping through a whole map and aggro everything in that 1 skill usage.

I don't see why we would want to restrict it like that. (not that we have even defined the aoe range on it enough to define how many enemies could realistically be aggroed....)

Thing is an aggro skill like that is a double edged sword. Used properly against the right enemy group and you can turn the tide of battle by controlling the right amount of enemy attention.

Used recklessly against the wrong group of enemies and you will invite death my being overwhelmed from too much sustained fire.

The way i see it we want to leave it to the player to use well or poorly and deal with the consequences.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Ronyn

[GSDAkatsuki]

I don't see why we would want to restrict it like that. (not that we have even defined the aoe range on it enough to define how many enemies could realistically be aggroed....)

Thing is an aggro skill like that is a double edged sword. Used properly against the right enemy group and you can turn the tide of battle by controlling the right amount of enemy attention.

Used recklessly against the wrong group of enemies and you will invite death my being overwhelmed from too much sustained fire.

The way i see it we want to leave it to the player to use well or poorly and deal with the consequences.

Literally will be abused so hard for defense and interception that people will call for nerfs, which is why I am getting it to a point where it won't be like that. Rhino already invincible during those first few seconds so it doesn't endanger him at all. There's no risk.

Combine with disarm Loki and enemies will be a joke. They can mass outside the pod range and allies can just do aoe damage focused on that one location.

Edited December 10, 2015 by GSDAkatsuki

[Kerch]

Literally will be abused so hard for defense and interception that people will call for nerfs, which is why I am getting it to a point where it won't be like that. Rhino already invincible during those first few seconds so it doesn't endanger him at all. There's no risk.

Combine with disarm Loki and enemies will be a joke. They can mass outside the pod range and allies can just do aoe damage focused on that one location.

What you just described sounds a lot like Loki+Frost.  Are you suggesting Snow Globe needs nerfing too?

[Khormalys]

Literally will be abused so hard for defense and interception that people will call for nerfs, which is why I am getting it to a point where it won't be like that. Rhino already invincible during those first few seconds so it doesn't endanger him at all. There's no risk.

Combine with disarm Loki and enemies will be a joke. They can mass outside the pod range and allies can just do aoe damage focused on that one location.

Think of disarm loki and repelling bastille vauban, not the most common setup but pretty effective

[lookindown]

Nerf squad hating on Rhino? This rhino? Really ?

[Ronyn]

Literally will be abused so hard for defense and interception that people will call for nerfs, which is why I am getting it to a point where it won't be like that. 

Once again, we haven't even defined the size of the aggro aoe. That seriously matters to the question of how many enemies it could reasonably aggro. Is it 5 meters, 10 meters, 15 meters? what are we working with here? Making sure the size is just right seems way more of the appropriate limiter than trying to make him immobile.

 

Rhino already invincible during those first few seconds so it doesn't endanger him at all. There's no risk.

There is most certainly risk. If you aggro a ton of enemies, many of them are likely to still be alive when the invincibility period runs out.

You may survive the first few seconds after invulnerability wears off but if you don't do something to either kill or control those other enemies quickly you could certainly get killed. This is where the proper application of multiple moves, abilities or tactics has to be employed to be effective.

 

Combine with disarm Loki and enemies will be a joke. They can mass outside the pod range and allies can just do aoe damage focused on that one location.

So.... like basically any aoe CC power. At least an aggro version has enemies still actively trying to kill someone as opposed to just standing there stunned and useless.

[TheBrsrkr]

Instead of melee mods applying like everyone says (that didn't go over so well on the other frames) why not armor? Have it's damage multiplied by your armor level. Also, make it a bit slower so we can steer?

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Rhino doesnt need a slow anything. I would like to be able to move while im invincible.

[GSDAkatsuki]

Difference from bastille or snow globe is that they can't direct the traffic of enemies, enemies come to you to one location based on there only being one objective for them. Interception they have pathing to take them to available objectives. With a good aggro you are now able to direct that traffic to one location. You don't need one person protecting each point as you can cover all pathways and have all enemies come to center.

[lookindown]

Instead of melee mods applying like everyone says (that didn't go over so well on the other frames) why not armor? Have it's damage multiplied by your armor level. Also, make it a bit slower so we can steer?

Didnt go so well? Whatre you talking about? Excalibur and atlas are great examples that melee mod applying works perfectly!

[hukurokuju5]

basically rhino buffs , not a rework.

 

ultimately, though, rhino is still the same frame..... 

 

changed some micro ( numbers , QOL)  stuff around and forgot about the macro ( KIT as a  whole) .

 

 

 

still not playing rhino anytime soon  T_T

[Eating_Paste]

His passive seems flat out broken. The effect and sound triggers, but it does not affect nearby enemies in any noticeable way. 

 

I do agree rhino needs more for this a rework. What I'd like to see is charge made channeled and steerable. 

[Ronyn]

Yes its best we just wait for this to happen if it will happen and then balance or fix it later, you know DE likes to that

I don't mind theory crafting, we just need to be provide specific numerical values to these ideas if we are going to have any hope to discuss balance...even theoretically. I mean a 5 meter aggro aoe range is WAY different than a 20 meter aggro aoe range. 

 

Not to mention your inmobility would prevent you from reviving allies which would be kindda annoying and i am pretty sure it would take a few hotfixes before you will be able to still revive if you are just next to downed ally, because again DE likes doing that. And you could lock yorself in place while enemies are destroying protection objective which would be even more annoying.

yep...

 

I think what he/she ment by disarm+aggro was that disarmed enemies would swarm rhino like ants, hehehe would look kinda funny, like a flock of sheep, meaning many enemies would be gathered tightly on one spot and thast when AoE weapons come in play. A bit different than just being stunned all around the place.

Yeah I can understand that. That is different in some regards then just CC. 

Instead of melee mods applying like everyone says (that didn't go over so well on the other frames) why not armor? Have it's damage multiplied by your armor level. Also, make it a bit slower so we can steer?

I don't see why one would say that melee mod scaling didn't go over so well on other frames....in most cases it's pretty good these days.

But hey armor for damage scaling could work too. I love it when tanks can turn defensive stats into offensive power. 

[(PSN)HELLHOUND_ROCKO]

"Absorb Period after casting Iron Skin similar to Tectonics"? but wasn't that meant to allow his Iron Skin to scale with Enemy Level? i remember the Dev's saying so in one of the last Devstreams - but if it indeed is meant so: why is the Absorb Period then just 3 Seconds long and from what i read can use Self-Damage as HP-Increase Source?? 

 

don't get me wrong - when U18 will arrive on my System i will probably be happy about all that HP when Self-Damaging me with the two 21k-ish Damage Explosions of two of my Secura Penta's Airbursts - before or after Armor Damage Reduction IDRC - but why has DE made the Absorb Period so incredibly short that it can be used for nothing else effectively than Self-Damage abusing in the first place, when their goal was to give it an opportunity to scale with Enemy Level instead? 

 

it seems also far from the Cinematic Stylishness some glorious Sci-Fi Knight Guy should ideally appear in, in any kinds of Non-Parody Media - it will be really sad for me to see him Self-Bombing him like a Retard - or like a Norfleet/ Explosive-Elemental-Dart-Pistol/ Absorb-Shield Combo Abuser in Borderlands2... . 

 

so all in all it sounds really not ideal - why not drastically increase his Absorb Period's Length, while making Self-Damage as Source for Iron Skin Strength Increase uneligible? and please DE, increase his Armor Rating a lot - i mean, even with his max. of 701.25 Armor Points he's just at 70.04% DR - while Atlas with his 1147.5 max. Armor is still just at 79.27% DR - the System of Diminishing Returns is clearly doing it's work good enough that Ironclad Charge wouldn't brake the Game if DE gave Rhino Prime the Atlas Armor Rating that he simply needs in Missions with reasonably High-Leveled Enemies i'd say... . 

 

and what has DE done to Rhino Charge? sure, i can see why they couldn't give it Melee Damage Mod Affection - such a Charge Attack it's already Atlas's Bread and Butter Skill like somebody else here pointed out - but why has DE drastically changed the Skill then in the first place?

 

it at least had it's Mobility-Utility focused use, used by my Arcane Vanguard Rhino Prime like never outside of winning Races to Extraction (with just +55% Duration it was already a 40 Meters Charge, just like Biotic Charge/ Havok Strike in ME2&3 - Loki's clumsy Decoy/ Switch Teleport Combo couldn't keep up with that - his marginally higher max. Sprint Speed neither...) - but it was at least that - and all that uses for Ragdolling it has now it had too already i see everyone writing - why now changing it into something different that still has no use as a reasonable Damage Source, but now also has no use as a reasonable Mobility Tool anymore either?? 

 

so, probably R.I.P. Power A/ 1 on my Rhino entirely - if DE just does not want to make it a reasonable Juggernaut-Attack-Charge-Thingy whatsoever for whatever reason, then i'd suggest at least making it something like the mentioned Charges from Mass Effect 2 & 3 then: around 40 Meters Length Lock-On Teleport-Charges with AoE Impact that Ragdolls, giving +40% Melee Damage over 20 Seconds - Strength & Duration affected by Mods - and in the Warframe Version with 8 Meters AoE Impact and hitting anything within 4 Meters Radius of the Travel-Channel too. 

 

this way it would encourage me to actually use it now and then, while at the same time encouraging the "Charging Melee-Rhino Playstyle" the Dev's probably had in mind when creating Rhino - just without having managed yet to give Rhino anything by default that gives any much of initiative actually doing so... . 

 

and what's about his new Passive Power? the moment i heard it being revealed in a Devstream and DE Rebecca rejoicing "oh yesss, my favorite Passive Power" - i, as a former Dedicated Rhino Player who joined the ranks of Dedicated Loki-Master-Race Players over time, just thought - AND spoke out loud in front of my TV: "oh no - they really wanna waste his Passive Ability Section with THAT crappy, useless Toy-Thing?? that's neither useful nor even just unique"!

 

and judging by what i've read here my fears became reality - including even the problem with inconsistency of Triggerability... . so i get that Passive Powers are probably not supposed to be anything really good - but rather little Comfort Bonuses instead - so why not giving it +10% max. Health and Shields Restored for every Enemy hit with a Rhino Heavy Impact? this way it would provide the little Comfort Bonus of saving a Team Health Restore if Health got damaged for some reason without having to rely on Rejuvenation, Lifestrike, Augments or Allies to heal up again either - it would be fun AND theoretically useful AND unique that way... . 

 

Roar not having been touched? sure, it's not spectacular or anything - it is what it is, it's ok that way i'd say - except for one thing: why isn't that thing Re-Castable?? if you wanna play good Rhino and actually support your Team with Damage Buffing - it becomes really annoying if you haven't catched everyone with your Roar but are unable to Re-Cast it - Teamplay Powers like that should especially get Development Support and not getting overlooked in a Rework of the associated Warframe i think - it's underused Augment would that way also gain the plus in relevance it seems to need. 

 

probably my favorite Sentinel, Shade, is also still not recognizing hits on Rhino's Iron Skin Overshield as "Attacks on his Master" hmm? what a "Rework"... . 

 

but finally Stomp is Re-Castable? i love to read that - thank you DE! Palatine Skin Visual Bugs in combination with Arm & Leg Accessories have been fixed i read? cool, thanks. MOAR HP FOAR RHINOOO? yup, not enough i'm certain from what i read here - but i gladly take them anyway, so thanks. if only Rhino's Mobility Charge and hopes for an anyhow decent Passive Power hadn't to die for it - but then again i'm sure the new Charge and Passive will find a handful of friends here and there too. 

 

please keep on working on Rhino, DE. 

[(PSN)HELLHOUND_ROCKO]

Heh, that brings back some good old memories :)

Also remember from pre-sequel, athena with aspis and atleast 600 maelstrom stacks with badabum, 100% for not absorbing ammo and like 3x fire rate, point blank blasting everyone, tho it was kinda fair cuz for aleast 600 stacks you had to put in some effort... and grenades :P

Thats because when rhino with iron skin is being hit its not considered as taking damage, it also doesnt activate all "on damage" arcanes and you also dont get HUD on your screen showing you from where you are being hit. And even ability description sais rhino insulates himself from all damage. On one side its kindda logical but on the other i know some players would like it otherwise. I am gonna stay neutral on this one, i am ok with both. Tho vazarin skill tree has this "retaliation" skill which reflects a portion of damage back to enemies, now idk if this works with iron skin cuz i dont have that skill yet or know anyone with it, but i think it should work cuz its reflecting damage and not effect that activates uppon damage, and focus is completly new feature so it doesnt have to look back on some "on damage triggering" we have now and had before. Beside i think rion skin and retaliation would work together very well :)

definitely - that extra Independent (at maximum probably 10%) Damage Resistance-through-Reflection Focus/ Way or whatever does seem kinda mandatory to me for any Maximum Tankiness Builds of a Warframe. 

 

and about Shade - well, the thing is that i guess that the whole Attack only as Reaction Thing of him is less meant as a Nerf to him but more as a way to ensure a more Stealthy Gameplay without giving up on a firing Sentinel entirely. lol - and they wonder why Carrier Prime is the most used Sentinel with all the Un-Fixed troubles and weaknesses the other Sentinels have... . 

 

anyway - does anybody here actually know yet if the Self-Damage from those of the Explosive Weapons that deal full Damage on Self-Hit gets reduced by Armor Damage Reduction for building up extra Iron Skin HP during the Absorb Period or not? because when i think of it - extra 2x 21k-ish HP from two 21k-ish Damage Secura Penta Airbursts on top of Iron Skin's Individual Starting HP that afterwards get also Damage Reduced by 70.04% would be - well, lets say some kinda crazy way of applying a Buff by around 7 000% to 10 000%, depending on Loadout... .  :) 

[Ronyn]

Darn great post overall..one thing though....

 sure, i can see why they couldn't give it Melee Damage Mod Affection - such a Charge Attack it's already Atlas's Bread and Butter Skill like somebody else here pointed out - 

I honestly don't understand this sentiment. 

Should we not have given iron skin the absorption window  just because snowglobe and tectonics have it?

At this point there are several frame powers that take melee mods into account (Exalted Blade, Hysteria, Toxic Lash, Primal fury, and landslide)

So why are folks worried about charge getting it?

Like I Said before I'm open to others ways to improve it but I feel the whole "its atlas' bread and butter" thing is an odd reason to avoid a mechanic considering how many frames share similar mechanics these days. If it works it works.  

[(PSN)HELLHOUND_ROCKO]

Darn great post overall..one thing though....

I honestly don't understand this sentiment. 

Should we not have given iron skin the absorption window  just because snowglobe and tectonics have it?

At this point there are several frame powers that take melee mods into account (Exalted Blade, Hysteria, Toxic Lash, Primal fury, and landslide)

So why are folks worried about charge getting it?

Like I Said before I'm open to others ways to improve it but I feel the whole "its atlas' bread and butter" thing is an odd reason to avoid a mechanic considering how many frames share similar mechanics these days. If it works it works.  

thanks - well, the reason why i think they had a too hard time giving Rhino some near identical Charge-Attack to Landslide is: Atlas and Rhino are just too similar in many ways important here while i think to have understood that most people are playing Atlas mainly for Landslide in combination with his notable enough Survivability. 

 

so, what would Atlas have left of what those mentioned most people that play him care about in comparison to Rhino, if Rhino would get a proper Landslide too? less Survivability + near Identical Charge-Attack + some Toys those mentioned most people don't seem to care about enough?

 

in other words, i think he'd be probably treated as obsolete too largely by the majority of the Community than it could be healthy to him IMO (not that i'd particularly care about that - i wish all the best for my former Favorite Frame of Rhino and would happily embrace just that while still continuing to enjoy Atlas in both: Landsliding and watching my Golems doing all the work in wrestling with non Ancient DR-Buffed Enemys until later Mid-Game, WWE 22k116 lol, TLDR; i think the Meta is to blaim). 

 

but in the by you mentioned examples this does not seem to be too much the case: 

does it feel too likely that people will find Frost's Augmented Snowglobe Spam to be obsolete because of Rhino's Warframe Armor Rating applying to his Iron Skin now? surely not! 

 

is Excal being treated as obsolete because Atlas has his Lock-On AoE-Meele Charge Attack Combo of Landslide - or is the other way around Atlas being treated as obsolete because Excal has that Unguided Sword-Energy-Wave Spam-Attack you're probably reffering to? surely not, those two Frames feel like being a healthy bit different enough from each other for that. 

 

Toxic Lash is probably Saryn - will the Women being famous for Myasma, Molt - and looking like THE Alien - become treated obsolete for having a probably Melee Power that i don't know anything about - but that can probably not be used to such devestating effects on her like a Landslide on Atlas or that Excal Sword-Energy-Wave Thingy on him? vice versa maybe? doesn't sound all that likley to me TBH. 

 

on my Platform Wukong seems pretty new and pretty broken to me, but yet i hear that his Melee Powers aren't all too overly great because of using new uniqe Mechanics that seem to be unable to be abused to the max. just yet - but he's more famous for his Not-Die Tricks and unique Movement Option anyway. 

 

and Valkyr? always refused to play her, but if only half of what i hear about her is true - she indeed would make every other Warframe asides of maybe the Cloakers Obsolete for a very, very lot of stuff - but since she seems to do that to near every Frame simultaneously she seems to get away with that as some kind of absurdity i think from observing the Dramas around her from a distance. 

 

but again - if the new Rhino would get a Charge near identically to Atlas's Landslide - would Atlas become treated as near obsolete from most of who enjoy him now - that most that seem to state that they enjoy him most of all for his Landslide + his Survivability Combo? i honestly think yes. 

[(PSN)HELLHOUND_ROCKO]

Wait so you dont take the damage you reflect? So atop of damaging enemies you also have 10% total dmg resistance? Cool :D

i definitely thought so from reading and watching everything that i was able to gather from the new Focus System - but then again, you're the Guy on PC who already has that stuff, you tell me!  :) 

 

but what you have mentioned before with Rhino's Stomp being sometimes Re-Castable just without effect sounds pretty sad, sounds like quick Mechanic Stats-Tweaking instead of Rework. oh man - and that was the one thing the most agreed to as being simply an overdue good, good change... . hopefully it was just a bad Connection when you had experienced that - or it gets fixed soon, optimism-try, etc. ... . 

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

I much prefer rhino over atlas

[Ronyn]

 - if the new Rhino would get a Charge near identically to Atlas's Landslide - would Atlas become treated as near obsolete from most of who enjoy him now - that most that seem to state that they enjoy him most of all for his Landslide + his Survivability Combo? i honestly think yes. 

Let me put it like this, if a "brawlers" defining characteristic is punching things then wouldn't a "rhino's" defining characteristic be charging into things? That in mind I don't agree with the general idea that rhino's charge shouldn't be a powerful damage dealing ability. 

In my book rhino charge should be his core direct damage power. Also, rhino was killing enemies with his charge power long before atlas was even in the game. Seems weird to hold his power back on account of one of the newer frames.

 

At any rate I won't I'd say that atlas and rhino have some similarities but are different enough frames to fit my different moods.

Like there are times I enjoy having a couple burly rock dudes at my side to beat enemies up. So I go with atlas.

and if that kind of thing is not enough, they need more differences than they have now.

But I won't try to speak for everyone. I honestly think there are to many different opinions on the subject of what frame makes another frame obsolete.