What's With The Constant Decrease In Movement?

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Over the past few updates there has been a significant decrease in overall mobility. Although this is less apparent in lighter frames, it is extremely apparent in heavier frames. To the point where it feels like some frames can walk faster than a tanks sprint.

 

I decided to take a look at the u18 changes and although I have alot of positive things to say, they are mostly related to what the PVE staff did which effected the pvp game. But in terms of the exclusive pvp stuff I have to say that the skins are cool i guess.

 

Although the issue at hand here is the mobility. Now before I delve into this I want to say that regardless of what version of conclave you played in, its very apparent that one of the key components of not the most important component to being a skilled warframe player is the ability to move around efficently.

 

Warframe may be one of the only 3rd person shooters out there that has such a large emphasis on movement. Unfortunately it seems that with every proceeding update the mobility is going down in order to compensate for heavier and robust frames.

 

It's easy to tell the mindset behind these changes, the devs want to create an environment where players can choose between two very pivotal stats, EHP and Movement. Where simple factors like this play well into more MOBAesque shootersl ike overwatch and DB nicely this is not the case in warframe. The issue at hand here is that the gap of HP and mobility is too big, the min and max speed and min and max healths are too far apart. Because of this, it does the following

 

A) It creates an environment where the average stated frames are meta

 

B) It eliminates the choice and resorts to the stat that is the most important.

 

In this case we are dipping into option B. Sure having more health is nice, but mastering the mobility controls is much more effective in terms of getting your opponent to have a harder time.

 

So what should we do about this. In order to fully understand the solution I would like to discuss other games that have been out for a while. For example blacklight retribution had tanks and speedies done right. Sure the difference in health and mobility is noticeable, but both playstyles are equally effective. To be a tank is just as effective as being a speedy, its one of those things where a speed player and a tanky player can debate for days on which playstyle is better without reaching a conclusion, that is balance.

 

But here we have a special case, the FPS genre is easy to manipulate and is much more basic compared to the 3rd person shooter. We have to embrace warframe's strengths as a fast paced action shooter, because fundamentally that's what it is. It's good to have faster and slower warframes but not to the point where the fast frames are bolts and the slow frames are turtles.

 

The gap between EHP an mobility needs to be compressed. Warframe is a game based on movement, and it would be simply wrong to remove that from certain playstyles. As much as I hate to say this, look how destiny handles its weaker and tankier players. Is the difference noticeable sure but not to the point where it is atrocious. This mobility change has gone to the point where it is devolving warframe into another generic 3rd person shooter, and although it will cater to a more casual fanbase, that is only a short term solution. You need a game with unique qualities that will keep players in the long run, and warframe's mobility defined warframe.

 

When someone says powers or variety defines warframe they are wrong, because they fail to understand that what makes warframe separate from any other game in it's category  and that is the movement and the aesthetics.

 

What should we do?

 

Either advocate for a game where the gap is much smaller

 

or

 

Standardize the system, equalize warframe stats and speeds. This way it keeps the game simplistic and promotes players to learn the movement system rather than falling back to their kits. I never saw why this is a problem.

 

anyways that's my 2 cents so far. Back to conculyst farming *gun emoji*

 

 

[Magnulast]

Because PVP players move to fast and it becomes more of, let me land a lucky shot.

 

Because PVP players are slower, newer players can adapt to the game, not to mention elite flying all over their faces and making them cry.

 

I'm not sure how this PVP is turning into another 3rd person shooter, it's warframe, slowed down.

 

Just because some players are heading toward one stat doesn't mean it's great, I've tried that and I've learned my lesson.

It's pretty much a movement from option B->A->normal

 

It's a process of learning and such.

 

Less mobility=more combat.

More mobility=less combat

 

That's the issue with PVP.....

Edited December 9, 2015 by Magnulast

[(PSN)AllEyezOnThee]

Movement speed can be increased with mods if that is what you want in a tanky frame. Because before, all people did was bullet jump/copter every second when in ata pinch which is not strategy but mind numbing tactics.

Honestly they should just make all frames equal in health shields and speed and let the mods determine the play style. That way you can pick a frame over aesthetic rather than pros and cons (of course if they do this they gotta balance the powers)

[Zerga-08]

I agree 100%.

 

I would personally like it if all the stats were the same and the only difference was powers. That way it is easier for the PvP team to balance and then we can't use the excuse "Well, so and so is a tank and is kinda fast so they need useless powers." Also allow the mods that increase mobility in cost of surviveability and powers stay, remove the mods that give extra speed and bullet jump damage at full energy (or just make them cosmetic).

Edited December 9, 2015 by Zerga-08

[Pythadragon]

 

Over the past few updates there has been a significant decrease in overall mobility. Although this is less apparent in lighter frames, it is extremely apparent in heavier frames. To the point where it feels like some frames can walk faster than a tanks sprint.

 

Sprint stat was not affected by U18. I feel like there is some hyperbole or assumption going on here. 

 

Lets make sure everyone is on the same page.

 

-------------
 

When speed modded

 

The mobility gap has decreased from Pre U18 to U18.

 

- Slowest frames remain about the same as before, but are also tankier than before

- Fastest frames lost ~0.15 mobility, and are also squishier than before

 

Mobility gap was decreased by truncating the potential mobility from the top.

 

- With the half energy mod + energy buffs, it is now easier to get to max energy to activate elemental mods, allowing speed layers to reach their max speed much faster than before.

 

- Players using the sword alone mod (melee only players) are faster than they were Pre U18 except on the fastest frames, where they reduce the mobility loss from 0.15 to only 0.05.

 

Movement dynamics have improved by allowing melee equip players a movement boost to counter their clunky animations (much better than giving them MM autoaim!), and fast frame players using elemental mods can get their benefits faster.

 

-----------

 

I personally like diversity of frames available from supertank/slow to superfast/squish and do not think it needs to be narrowed any more than it already has.

 

U18 has truncated the potential mobility from the top. I'd prefer to revert to change and truncate the potential mobility from the bottom by the same amount instead so that pvp speed is closer to pve speed for the average/slower frames, and the faster frames can allow for more dynamic movement styles.

 

Doing this makes the tankiest frames (speed modded) have the ~the same mobility value as the universal PVE default value of 1.0.

 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/573007-analysis-tank-frames-are-now-faster-squishy-frames-are-slower-u1803/?view=findpost&p=6489077

Edited December 9, 2015 by Pythadragon

[JonBenj]

Private lobbys, Better matchmaking and Custom game modes - and then Public games will have to be accepted for what they are.

[Vyrn]

Having played a little bit of Conclave again post U18, I basically feel like a snail if I use heavier frames. Even with Adept Surge, my Chroma is way too slow, and he's only decent once I hit max energy. Even then, though, some animations are horribly sluggish, and it's almost unpleasant at times.

If the lower mobility frames were made a little faster and the higher mobility frames as well, I think it would be a much more welcoming place. That would make even the currently slow frames more comfortable to use, and the faster frames could become even faster. Squishy frames' advantage grows, but tankier frames gain at least some room to counter-play and, you know, dodge.

EHP standardization (at least partially) is still something I'm backing, however, as I feel the heavy emphasis on hitscan weapons defies the major advantages to speed. The second option you presented could work, but I feel part of what makes frames unique (other than appearance/abilities) is how they feel when actually played. Making all EHP and mobility stats the same would be okay (and I'd be alright with that, maybe), but I don't think it is the right call. As such, I'll go with the first.

Some frames can be slower with a little more health, and some can be faster with less health. Keep the EHP to mobility ratio, but scale it back to within a much smaller degree of variance.

U18 has truncated the potential mobility from the top. I'd prefer to revert to change and truncate the potential mobility from the bottom by the same amount instead so that pvp speed is closer to pve speed for the average/slower frames, and the faster frames can allow for more dynamic movement styles.

also this

Edit:Wow, I almost double posted because wonky mobile. Thanks to whoever made it so there's a few seconds of delay before you can post again.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Vyrnaazus

[Nighttide77]

I dunno... Frost Prime is still able to double jump, aim glide, and slide-dodge (that quick tap of the slide button to strafe to the side) not much less than any other frame.  Those are really the only 3 evasive maneuvers I use, and it all seems to be plenty enough to make Frost Prime a hard target.  I don't think I have ever used dodge-rolls to evade damage...only as a mobility tool.

 

In so far as Frost Prime's ability to move faster or slower...the frame does feel slow, but it doesn't feel unbearable...at least to me.  I might be able to pick up ammo and gather energy faster with any other frame, but Frost Prime still seems to be able to get around easy enough.

 

The biggest argument I can imagine that is against standardizing all the frames' EHP to the same values is that each frame has different powers that also influence EHP and such.  For instance, Loki's invisibility helps justify the frame's lack of EHP.  If all powers were made to be weak and just utility, then Warframe would simply become more like other standard shooters and nothing special.  I know powers don't define Warframe PvP and stuff, but I still believe those aspects need to be factored in.

 

With all the current available mobility mods, I think it's possible to make tanky frames move closer to the speed of the medium frames, but not light ones...probably for a good reason.  For instance, Frost Prime with Hastened Steps and Rising Skill decreases their shields to 90 (keeping 300 armor and 100 health), but they increase sprint to 1.14 and mobility to 0.6; I guess a good medium frame comparison would be Excal with 100 shield and health, 225 armor, sprint of 1.0 and mobility of 0.76.

 

On the other hand, it would be nice if all frames in PvP moved more like they do in PvE.  It just isn't very pleasant to always be giving chase to opponents that only have 5% of their health left; especially with how easy it can be to lose track of your target and how easy it is for them to regain their lost health and shields.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Nighttide77

[Lordricker]

If the lower mobility frames were made a little faster and the higher mobility frames as well, I think it would be a much more welcoming place. That would make even the currently slow frames more comfortable to use, and the faster frames could become even faster. Squishy frames' advantage grows, but tankier frames gain at least some room to counter-play and, you know, dodge.

 

This was my thoughts when i started playing after U18, Just bump all the frames mobility up a little bit and keep the distance between them. making the overall game just a little quicker feeling. I still think the orbs (energy/hp) should scale with how many are currently in the match because the faster the movement the easier to run and grab orbs. 

 

i personally dont agree with standardizing all the frames the same, i feel like that would just take the fun out of it :/. hey look we are all the same frame with a different body type.

[-FireMaelstr0m-]

Played PvP for the first time in a while today, damn I felt slow. As other have said, a blanket buff to movement speed would be nice.

[Naftal]

Nerfing sliding is the biggest thing that ruins pvp movement. You're either stuck with a squishy frame with HUGE bullet jump stat to get a proper sliding or you'll get bad sliding. Mobility mods don't seem to do anything either for that.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

-snip-

 

The problem is that the most desirable aspect of the game is the movement. Sure the gap is closing but overall the game's speed is slow, its starting to become a generic 3rd person shooter.

 

This is why we need standardization or legacy/competitive game mods because there is no way in hell that Powers + EhP + Mobility while maintaining the fast paced action of the game can be balanced.

[Yezzik]

The problem is that the most desirable aspect of the game is the movement. Sure the gap is closing but overall the game's speed is slow, its starting to become a generic 3rd person shooter.

 

This is why we need standardization or legacy/competitive game mods because there is no way in hell that Powers + EhP + Mobility while maintaining the fast paced action of the game can be balanced.

 

By now, you'd probably have more movement IN a tactical shooter.

And what happens when everyone's slow? Rhinos with Iron Skin, sat on the objective, laying down a hail of hitscan Soma fire because nobody's quick enough to evade it and flank them without getting cut to ribbons.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Yezzik