Can Valkyr Be Changed To Take Damage During Hysteria?

[Madraz]

Yes it would be a worse version of Chroma, because Chroma already has almost this exact mechanic, has over 10x the armor, and can still use all weapons. The only "complimentary" skill in your suggestion is the taunt, which would have to replace something, and would also only serve the purpose of getting her killed almost immediately.

 

And whats the point of her existing as she is then if the only diffrence to chroma is that Chroma has 99% damage reduction where as Valkyr has 100% and deals less damage and cant use weapons?

[Pro3Display]

Then please, give out your suggestions what would make Valkyr more fun without a invincibility? I want to discuss about this, i really do. Never said she'd have less damage than Chroma for instance, the point still is to make her high damage berserker. What if she did more damage than Chroma by a long shot?

what would make samurai better than sniper by a long shot?

sniper rifle

or immunity to gun fire

 

 

And whats the point of her existing as she is then if the only diffrence to chroma is that Chroma has 99% damage reduction where as Valkyr has 100% and deals less damage and cant use weapons?

because they are different in every single way

Edited December 15, 2015 by Pro3Display

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

Pretty much every other frame can be knocked down, energy drained passively and fully from attacks, killed, ran out of ammo for poor aim, or having their abilities run out and not being in cover to reactivate them. Everything else on that list has way more fail possibilities than Valkyr. And you are defending the god mode, which is boring and she doesnt have anything else going for her. Dont you want to see her shine and become fun to play? Dont you want to see her become one of the best frames for her teamplay skills instead of ambulance? And "reduced to melee range" is such a poor argument when she does more damage than any weapon in the game as far as i know. Why do you even play melee frame if you dont like melee.

Blanket statements as bolded is so Goddamn tiresome. Your ideas of fun is not the same as others ideals of fun. Stop shoving your "fun" down others throats. Personally, I am in the camp that believes frame balancing should be left alone (beyond QoL fixes that are desperately needed) until DE fixes their horrible enemy and weapon scaling then tackle the frames. Infinite scaling in any game never works and promotes having to use God Mode be it Valkyr or other frames with the potential to he Demi-Gods. If it isn't a QoL just leave it be for now. What's being suggested for Valkyr, and the best fix for her as her whole kit is disjointed, would require an overhaul.

Edited December 15, 2015 by (PS4)FunyFlyBoy

[Madraz]

Blanket statements as bolded is so Goddamn tiresome. Your ideas of fun is not the sake as others ideals of fun. Stop shoving your "fun" down others throats. Personally, I am on the camp that believes frame balancing should be left alone until DE fixes their horrible enemy and weapon scaling then tackle the frames. Infinite scaling in any game never works and promotes having to use God Mode be it Valkyr or other frames with the potential to he Demi-Gods.

 

Not shoving it down anyones throat, i came here to discuss about this. Everyone seems to be on a debunk mode to just trash this topic.

[Synitare]

And whats the point of her existing as she is then if the only diffrence to chroma is that Chroma has 99% damage reduction where as Valkyr has 100% and deals less damage and cant use weapons?

 

This is exactly the issue. And yet people still want to remove literally the only thing that makes her even the slightest bit different.

[Madraz]

This is exactly the issue. And yet people still want to remove literally the only thing that makes her even the slightest bit different.

 

Thats not diffrent, its the exact same with 1% diffrence. I feel like she should be more diverse than that.

[Alineah]

And whats the point of her existing as she is then if the only diffrence to chroma is that Chroma has 99% damage reduction where as Valkyr has 100% and deals less damage and cant use weapons?

i find valkyr to be pretty fun as she is.

if you dont find valkyr fun then dont use her, get a different frame, theres currently a lot of them.

[Pro3Display]

Not shoving it down anyones throat, i came here to discuss about this. Everyone seems to be on a debunk mode to just trash this topic.

1) in last 4 hours you desperately try to assure us that hysteria need to be reworked. yes you are shoving it

2) because this topic is always a trashtalk and blamegame. everything is coming down to "i like, you don't. agree to disagree" every single goddam day

[Gurpgork]

Then please, give out your suggestions what would make Valkyr more fun without a invincibility? I want to discuss about this, i really do. Never said she'd have less damage than Chroma for instance, the point still is to make her high damage berserker. What if she did more damage than Chroma by a long shot?

Do you have any idea how absurdly overpowered it would be if Valkyr could hit harder than Chroma? Seriously, just take a second to consider that.

 

The Vaykor Hek with a specific build can hit 113k DPS. Maximum Power Strength increases the damage multiplier on Vex Armor to 9.94. That totals to 1,123,200 DPS. That's not taking into account the possibility of critical headshots or elemental multipliers. Soo... What's the ceiling here? How much DPS do you want to give her?

 

In any case, if Valkyr's invincibility were to be removed, the rest of her kit would basically need to be blanket buffed. Reworking Valkyr to not need god mode and still be unique and useful, while not being thoroughly eclipsed by Chroma, is a deceptively huge undertaking. This is an issue that's pretty much slowly driving me insane. 

Edited December 15, 2015 by Gurpgork

[Madraz]

1) in last 4 hours you desperately try to assure us that hysteria need to be reworked. yes you are shoving it

2) because this topic is always a trashtalk and blamegame. everything is coming down to "i like, you don't. agree to disagree" every single goddam day

 

Just as much as you are shoving your ideas to my throat then. And how about we take it past the trashtalk then? Please.

[Madraz]

Do you have any idea how absurdly overpowered it would be if Valkyr could hit harder than Chroma? Seriously, just take a second to consider that.

 

The Vaykor Hek with a specific build can hit 113k DPS. Maximum Power Strength increases the damage multiplier on Vex Armor to 9.94. That totals to 1,123,200 DPS. That's not taking into account the possibility of critical headshots or elemental multipliers. Soo... What's the ceiling here? How much DPS do you want to give her?

 

In any case, if Valkyr's invincibility were to be removed, the rest of her kit would basically need to be blanket buffed. Reworking Valkyr to not need god mode and still be unique and useful, while not being thoroughly eclipsed by Chroma, is a deceptively huge undertaking.

 

Well thats what a previous post was saying to be a reason not to make her diffrent and diverse, so i asked what would be his opinion if she actually did more damage than Chroma. And i agree, it is a huge undertaking. And maybe with few of these discussions there will be a spark in someone in DE team that gets good ideas. And maybe in somewhere in the future Valkyr would be diffrent than "melee chroma with 1% more defense"

Edited December 15, 2015 by Madraz

[Pro3Display]

Just as much as you are shoving your ideas to my throat then. And how about we take it past the trashtalk then? Please.

i am asking you to point out the difference between my point of view on what is "personal fail conditions" and yours ffs

but you only seem to tell me how wrong i am with 0 proof

Edited December 15, 2015 by Pro3Display

[Alineah]

Well thats what you were saying on your post to be a reason not to make her diffrent and diverse, so i asked what would be your opinion if she actually did more damage than Chroma. And i agree, it is a huge undertaking. And maybe with few of these discussions there will be a spark in someone in DE team that gets good ideas. And maybe in somewhere in the future Valkyr would be diffrent than "melee chroma with 1% more defense"

take into consideration that its a multipliyer,

take 99% away of a million your left with 10,000, take 100% away from a million you're left with 0.

take 99% away from a billion youre left with 10,000,000

take 100% away from a billion youre left with 0

do you see the difference yet?

Edited December 15, 2015 by Alineah

[Madraz]

i am asking you to point out the difference between my point of view on what is "personal fail conditions" and yours ffs

but you only seem to tell me how wrong i am with 0 proof

 

Fail can mean many things. If you aim at an enemy and you miss you failed to hit the enemy. If the enemy does an avoidable knockdown effect that you fail to avoid, you failed to avoid it and you will be punished for it. These and more i classify as a "personal fail" that you can notice and you can improve yourself to overcome these and try not to do the same mistake twice. I got from your post what you classify as a fail is only failing the mission.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Madraz

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

Yeeaaaah, no. Anyone who uses that argument is knowingly or unwittingly beating people in the face with, "She is boring! She isn't fun, make her fun again" yet there are plenty who find her fun just the way she is. That is shoving your ideals down their throat. That is saying, "Your way is wrong cause I find her boring therefore you're wrong."

Should she have godmode? Eh, neutral on that respect because not everyone uses it as a crutch. Most I have played with (mind you, PS4 environment) used it as an, "OOPS I done #*($%%@ up, let me Regen and get back to my eternal war." Yes, you will have those who use just Hysteria but how is that any worse off than Loki's with Radial Disarm builds going invisible? Sorry. but the whole, "can still take damage" kind of loses its punch when enemies only have a stick to wield and even when they can clearly see you suck at wielding it. An Orthos blends them into a fine smooth before they get a hit off. You have zero risk there as well. Then there is Trinity, and don't give me the tired line of if she misses her recasts for a split second she is doomed to die. People have been complaining about Valkyr godmode since before it became a toggle. It was a problem then yet folks said, "Psh, she can just run away and recast godmode then head back in." Yeah, same for Trinity, yet she has always been excused, for the most part.

When her kit isn't a disjointed mess, enemies don't have this stupid infinite scaling, and frames/gear scale better than what they do with real mod diversity, overhaul the hell out of Valkyr. I for one would find it interesting if she did follow a Berserker theme. Maybe something like the Berserker/Reaver combination you get in Dragon Age 2. More damage she sustains more damage she dishes out and gains an aura that pulses damage as she is damaged. But, Eh, until the core problems of the game is fixed as it stands now, many of these frames are almost needed as they are.

[Synitare]

Thats not diffrent, its the exact same with 1% diffrence. I feel like she should be more diverse than that.

 

She should be, but she's not and without a full rework she never will be. Right now invincibility is the only thing that defines her, as I've said a number of times already, yet people still want to remove it without adding anything significant in return. Every single one of these threads that shows up every two days is always the same.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Synitare

[Tsukinoki]

Then please, give out your suggestions what would make Valkyr more fun without a invincibility? I want to discuss about this, i really do. Never said she'd have less damage than Chroma for instance, the point still is to make her high damage berserker. What if she did more damage than Chroma by a long shot?

So you make her deal more damage than Chroma.  That still doesn't change the fact that it is single target damage and limited to melee range.

Meanwhile Chroma is dealing less damage but he is doing it a lot safer than Valkyr, and to a lot more targets a hek of a lot faster than Valkyr would.  Because instead of having to stop, run over to an enemy and attack then he just turns and shoots and they are hit for the massive damage he has from Vex Armor.

And while Valkyr is having to run across the battlefield to reach the enemies she's being shot to pieces and in the sorties would be lucky to make it to the enemies and not go down half way there.

The problem is that she doesn't have any way of dealing with aerial enemies reliably, or dealing with something beyond tickle range.

Nor does she have the CC skills to cover for that weakness.

I'm not entirely sure what she would need if you want to remove the invincibility but she needs at least one or more of these things

-Some form of decent CC, because lets face it Paralysis and Warcry just don't cut it.

Paralysis just has too short a range to be useful, and the damage is so small it might as well not even be counted.

At least its cheap but that doesn't help it stay useful with next to no range.

Further, even if you do use it it knocks the enemies down or staggers them which forces valkyr into long finisher animations with no way to cancel them.  And while those are happening she can't dodge attacks or do anything else which would just cause her to lose a ton of health if she wasn't invulnerable.

And warcry while it does debuff enemies speed is so minor as to not really be noticeable.

Further, if you want a decent duration for its attack speed buff its range is going to abysmal, and with eternal war you can't recast it so its CC abilities are moot for the most part.

-Some form of reliable/accurate and fast movement ability to get to enemies before being destroyed.

Because if you don't have hysteria up and are fighting enemies that present a challenge (not even Sortie missions) casting Ripline just makes you a slow moving airborn target that gets ripped apart before you can land.

Hek, even bullet jumping is usually faster and easier to control than rip line is, and it affects the enemy aim more meaning that less things hit you while bullet jumping.  And its free.

-Some reliable way to deal with aerial enemies.

The main reason for this is the Corpus units, but even with 99% DR on the sorties 2 or 3 sapping ospreys utterly destroy Chroma in just a few seconds, meaning that Valkyr who as it currently stands can't deal with them would die even faster with absolutely no counter if they took away her invulnerability.

Also having some way to deal with enemies within a more vertical range would solve current annoyances with being magnetically attracted to aerial enemies and not being able to hut them causing all of your attacks to do nothing in hysteria for the 3 to 5 seconds it takes to make her attack the ground based enemies as well as an easier way to deal with knocked over enemies that doesn't cause that same issue.

In essence:

She needs almost a complete rework if you want to remove the invulnerability.

She would need to get at least one decent CC skill, some method to deal with aerial enemies, and a decent movement skill that is fast enough, and accurate enough to get her to targets outside of melee range before she is utterly destroyed.

 

And whats the point of her existing as she is then if the only diffrence to chroma is that Chroma has 99% damage reduction where as Valkyr has 100% and deals less damage and cant use weapons?

Right now the only thing keeping her viable is the invulnerability.

Take that away and she wouldn't have a reason to exist.

She's only better than Chroma in situations where even a maximum Vex Armor Chroma would be ripped apart.

As well as safely reviving players in the middle of all of the enemies.

Beyond that though she doesn't have a reason to exist.

And that is the problem.

Taking away her invulnerability without a near complete rework removes her only reason to exist.

So until people can think of the proper rework for all of her skills to support not being invincible while still being limited to tickle range I can't agree with just removing her invincibility.

[Madraz]

Yeeaaaah, no. Anyone who uses that argument is knowingly or unwittingly beating people in the face with, "She is boring! She isn't fun, make her fun again" yet there are plenty who find her fun just the way she is. That is shoving your ideals down their throat. That is saying, "Your way is wrong cause I find her boring therefore you're wrong."

Should she have godmode? Eh, neutral on that respect because not everyone uses it as a crutch. Most I have played with (mind you, PS4 environment) used it as an, "OOPS I done #*($%%@ up, let me Regen and get back to my eternal war." Yes, you will have those who use just Hysteria but how is that any worse off than Loki's with Radial Disarm builds going invisible? Sorry. but the whole, "can still take damage" kind of loses its punch when enemies only have a stick to wield and even when they can clearly see you suck at wielding it. An Orthos blends them into a fine smooth before they get a hit off. You have zero risk there as well. Then there is Trinity, and don't give me the tired line of if she misses her recasts for a split second she is doomed to die. People have been complaining about Valkyr godmode since before it became a toggle. It was a problem then yet folks said, "Psh, she can just run away and recast godmode then head back in." Yeah, same for Trinity, yet she has always been excused, for the most part.

When her kit isn't a disjointed mess, enemies don't have this stupid infinite scaling, and frames/gear scale better than what they do with real mod diversity, overhaul the hell out of Valkyr. I for one would find it interesting if she did follow a Berserker theme. Maybe something like the Berserker/Reaver combination you get in Dragon Age 2. More damage she sustains more damage she dishes out and gains an aura that pulses damage as she is damaged. But, Eh, until the core problems of the game is fixed as it stands now, many of these frames are almost needed as they are.

 

Well if someone is saying to me she is fun and i should go under a rock with my opinions i find it to be the same thing.

And yes! I completely agree with pretty much everything else you just posted. But i feel like nothing will ever change if nobody ever says anything.

[Madraz]

So you make her deal more damage than Chroma.  That still doesn't change the fact that it is single target damage and limited to melee range.

Meanwhile Chroma is dealing less damage but he is doing it a lot safer than Valkyr, and to a lot more targets a hek of a lot faster than Valkyr would.  Because instead of having to stop, run over to an enemy and attack then he just turns and shoots and they are hit for the massive damage he has from Vex Armor.

And while Valkyr is having to run across the battlefield to reach the enemies she's being shot to pieces and in the sorties would be lucky to make it to the enemies and not go down half way there.

The problem is that she doesn't have any way of dealing with aerial enemies reliably, or dealing with something beyond tickle range.

Nor does she have the CC skills to cover for that weakness.

I'm not entirely sure what she would need if you want to remove the invincibility but she needs at least one or more of these things

-Some form of decent CC, because lets face it Paralysis and Warcry just don't cut it.

Paralysis just has too short a range to be useful, and the damage is so small it might as well not even be counted.

At least its cheap but that doesn't help it stay useful with next to no range.

Further, even if you do use it it knocks the enemies down or staggers them which forces valkyr into long finisher animations with no way to cancel them.  And while those are happening she can't dodge attacks or do anything else which would just cause her to lose a ton of health if she wasn't invulnerable.

And warcry while it does debuff enemies speed is so minor as to not really be noticeable.

Further, if you want a decent duration for its attack speed buff its range is going to abysmal, and with eternal war you can't recast it so its CC abilities are moot for the most part.

-Some form of reliable/accurate and fast movement ability to get to enemies before being destroyed.

Because if you don't have hysteria up and are fighting enemies that present a challenge (not even Sortie missions) casting Ripline just makes you a slow moving airborn target that gets ripped apart before you can land.

Hek, even bullet jumping is usually faster and easier to control than rip line is, and it affects the enemy aim more meaning that less things hit you while bullet jumping.  And its free.

-Some reliable way to deal with aerial enemies.

The main reason for this is the Corpus units, but even with 99% DR on the sorties 2 or 3 sapping ospreys utterly destroy Chroma in just a few seconds, meaning that Valkyr who as it currently stands can't deal with them would die even faster with absolutely no counter if they took away her invulnerability.

Also having some way to deal with enemies within a more vertical range would solve current annoyances with being magnetically attracted to aerial enemies and not being able to hut them causing all of your attacks to do nothing in hysteria for the 3 to 5 seconds it takes to make her attack the ground based enemies as well as an easier way to deal with knocked over enemies that doesn't cause that same issue.

In essence:

She needs almost a complete rework if you want to remove the invulnerability.

She would need to get at least one decent CC skill, some method to deal with aerial enemies, and a decent movement skill that is fast enough, and accurate enough to get her to targets outside of melee range before she is utterly destroyed.

 

Right now the only thing keeping her viable is the invulnerability.

Take that away and she wouldn't have a reason to exist.

She's only better than Chroma in situations where even a maximum Vex Armor Chroma would be ripped apart.

As well as safely reviving players in the middle of all of the enemies.

Beyond that though she doesn't have a reason to exist.

And that is the problem.

Taking away her invulnerability without a near complete rework removes her only reason to exist.

So until people can think of the proper rework for all of her skills to support not being invincible while still being limited to tickle range I can't agree with just removing her invincibility.

 

I agree with you. The reason for this post is to give spark for a proper rework somewhere in the future, or atleast i hope it is. And i cant even think of proper ways how to keep her original theme since Chroma just does the same thing when you mod him right.

[Pro3Display]

Fail can mean many things. If you aim at an enemy and you miss you failed to hit the enemy. If the enemy does an avoidable knockdown effect that you fail to avoid, you failed to avoid it and you will be punished for it. These and more i classify as a "personal fail" that you can notice and you can improve yourself to overcome these and try not to do the same mistake twice. I got from your post what you classify as a fail is only failing the mission.

finally, jesus.

and these are called misplays. you can train and increase accuracy and ability to avoid stomps and stuff.

this reduces occurance but not eliminates the factor of misplays though.

some frames are vulnerable to one type of misplays, some to other.

most of strengths and weaknesses in wf are well balanced

other stuff i wanted to say is already been said by others

 

Well if someone is saying to me she is fun and i should go under a rock with my opinions i find it to be the same thing.

and here we come again to the point of agreement on disagreement. theme is resolved until a new "nerf hysteria" thread pops up.

then we'll start all over, waste some hate on each other, and agree to disagree once more.

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

Well if someone is saying to me she is fun and i should go under a rock with my opinions i find it to be the same thing.

And yes! I completely agree with pretty much everything else you just posted. But i feel like nothing will ever change if nobody ever says anything.

DE already stated a dozen timed they are working on rebalancing enemies and gear a dozen times. I personally don't expect it anytime soon because the ground frame work already set makes that a hard to achieve task. No amount of screaming from us can speed that up. Patience at this point, even if it would take five years.

[Madraz]

finally, jesus.

and these are called misplays. you can train and increase accuracy and ability to avoid stomps and stuff.

this reduces occurance but not eliminates the factor of misplays though.

some frames are vulnerable to one type of misplays, some to other.

most of strengths and weaknesses in wf are well balanced

other stuff i wanted to say is already been said by others

 

and here we come again to the point of agreement on disagreement. theme is resolved until a new "nerf hysteria" thread pops up.

then we'll start all over, waste some hate on each other, and agree to disagree once more.

 

Then lets agree to disagree. ^^

[Gurpgork]

-snip-

Seriously could not agree more. 

 

I've actually given this a lot of thought. Even made a thread about it myself a while back, but it still wasn't well received. Hysteria is a very sensitive topic for this forum, and for good reason. 

 

Valkyr actually has most of the stuff she needs in her kit already, it just needs to be expanded to the point where it's useful. My proposed changes were to make Rip Line cheaper (and give it a new augment), make Warcry recastable and roll its augment into the base ability, double the range of Paralysis and make it actually work, and then, and only then, nerf the invulnerability of Hysteria, but make her faster while using it and give her more reach. 

 

Although this still probably doesn't go far enough, since it doesn't address how to deal with Ospreys.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Gurpgork

[Pro3Display]

DE already stated a dozen timed they are working on rebalancing enemies and gear a dozen times. I personally don't expect it anytime soon because the ground frame work already set makes that a hard to achieve task. No amount of screaming from us can speed that up. Patience at this point, even if it would take five years.

preach

[Madraz]

DE already stated a dozen timed they are working on rebalancing enemies and gear a dozen times. I personally don't expect it anytime soon because the ground frame work already set makes that a hard to achieve task. No amount of screaming from us can speed that up. Patience at this point, even if it would take five years.

 

Oh, didnt know that. Well thats good. Only thing i had heard was about them rebalancing some mods and master rank requirements. But its good if something is coming one day.