High Lvl Serration Mod: Srsly De?

[Xylia]

A 150% pressure point would barely put normal melee attacks dps on par with some of the strongest guns. But it would be a good start to improve melee gameplay.

 

Hek uses Ammo and has a Reload time.

 

An axe/hammer/greatsword doesn't.

 

Whoosh whoosh whoosh whoosh all you want, you're never going to have to stop.

 

A Hek has a default clip size of 4 and over two second reload.

 

BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM. *reloading.......* BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM.

 

Oh, and 120 shots is all you get with the default ammo max.

 

Does wicked damage, but once you run out of ammo, you're left with a useless gun until you find more ammo.

 

It also has a tight pellet spread; not suitable for AoE unlike the Heavy Weapons. Oh, and if the enemy is TOO close, you might miss because of the barrels' length.

 

And wanna know something ELSE the Heavy Melee Weapons do quite nice?

 

Jump Attacks.

 

Jump, Attack, WHAM! Everything nearby is going to end up on its rear. That's one of the main reasons you'd use a Scindo/Fragor during Infestation missions in the first place. That and the high damage AoE.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Xylia

[Thelonious]

a good point

To compensate for "infinite ammo", melee only has the risk of being torn apart by chargers, knocked down to death by shockwave moas. Not to mention those grineer elbow blows hurt a lot at high level. Heavy's stagger immunity is nice, but it's not your worst problem.

Oh and the constant running towards or behind enemies that escape your reach. If you wanna melee, better be a good runner.

See? risk vs reward.

And try something else than a heavy melee weapon. You'll see by yourself.

[Xylia]

To compensate for "infinite ammo", melee only has the risk of being torn apart by chargers, knocked down to death by shockwave moas. Not to mention those grineer elbow blows hurt a lot at high level. Heavy's stagger immunity is nice, but it's not your worst problem.

Oh and the constant running towards or behind enemies that escape your reach. If you wanna melee, better be a good runner.

See? risk vs reward.

And try something else than a heavy melee weapon. You'll see by yourself.

 

Well you obviously don't use a light one-handed weapon as a means of your main damage output.

 

The one-handed weapons are more for a backup. This includes the Glaive. Yes, you can throw a Glaive, but you have to charge it before you throw it, and it serves better as a backup when your main needs to reload. Throw, reload, shoot type deal.

 

If you want to go full on melee, you're going to want a Heavy. That's like saying "Why don't broncos clear whole rooms out!?"

 

If you want a REAL AoE shotgun, get a Strun (Hek is more for single-target I think due to the tight pellet spread). Broncos are more for backups, or sticking an Ice mod on and slowing multiple enemies down at once, or tearing off shields with cold mods. They're not meant to clear whole rooms of light armored foes like a Strun is meant to do.

 

Same goes for a Lato vs a Braton. "Why can't I solo everything with my Lato?" because your Lato is a SIDEARM -- it is a backup weapon.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Xylia

[Thelonious]

back to falacious arguments

Remember a few weeks back when serration was buffed to match Hornet Strike? That's because "sidearms" were more effective than rifles as a "main damage output".

Now they're on par.

Whenever I feel like it, I can still use my fully modded Lato Vandal to solo missions anyway. I can clear rooms with my fully modded Dual Broncos too. Maxed Hornet Strike helps a lot for sure.

But why can't I use any melee weapon this way? (And FYI other melee weapons are not necessarily one-handed, nor light: once again, try them).

Why not? I like melee (normal melee attacks, once again, not charge) as much as I like pew pewing, and I'm not the only one.

Yes, the issue is the same. Pressure point vs Serration/Hornet Strike. 42% against 165%/220%. Plain simple maths.

A few livestreams ago, in CB I guess, devs declared that guns, melee, and frame powers would be balanced against each other in order to suit anyone's playstyle. I'm still waiting for melee to be fixed.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Thelonious

[Galmech40k]

I personally like taking my time leveling them up.  Sure I want them to be maxed out but it's giving me something to do.
 

I've maxed out many warframes and weapons. and if it was that easy to max out the mods too I'd run out of things to do and slowly start to get bored with it.  

 

Though it will take me a long, long time to get things such as Serration and Redirection upto max, i get to work towards it and that's part of the fun.

[Xylia]

Remember a few weeks back when serration was buffed to match Hornet Strike? That's because "sidearms" were more effective than rifles as a "main damage output".

Now they're on par.

Whenever I feel like it, I can still use my fully modded Lato Vandal to solo missions anyway. I can clear rooms with my fully modded Dual Broncos too. Maxed Hornet Strike helps a lot for sure.

But why can't I use any melee weapon this way? (And FYI other melee weapons are not necessarily one-handed, nor light: once again, try them).

Why not? I like melee (normal melee attacks, once again, not charge) as much as I like pew pewing, and I'm not the only one.

Yes, the issue is the same. Pressure point vs Serration/Hornet Strike. 42% against 165%/220%. Plain simple maths.

A few livestreams ago, in CB I guess, devs declared that guns, melee, and frame powers would be balanced against each other in order to suit anyone's playstyle. I'm still waiting for melee to be fixed.

 

You "Can't" use Melee?

 

Why not?

 

What's stopping you?

 

Unless of course you're trying to do Pluto, but eh. If you're wanting the game balanced around being able to casually stroll up to a high level mob and punch it in the face without repercussions..... not sure what to say there, lol.

 

And besides, I've seen some Furax users tear stuff up in melee range, even on higher level areas, Lv30+.

 

They use Tank Frames though. Rhino, usually. Sometimes Frost.

 

And it seems to work good enough?

 

And again, Ammo. Guns run out of it and need to reload.

 

Melee doesn't. You can swing as many times as you want. You just need to pick the weapon for what you're doing to ensure you can kill the crap before your shields run out so you can find someplace to let em recover.

 

*shrugs*

 

A mere 100% or so change to Pressure Point wouldn't change that. It would, however, make the Heavies overpowered.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Xylia

[Thelonious]

"I'm right, you're wrong"

*sigh* risk vs reward, balance, playstyle choice, whatever I said, read again

[MoyuTheTrinity]

The same stuff again

 

My Lex never runs out of ammo :L

you are using a shotgun the strongest RANGED weapon in the game the only downside to it is reload and ammo

melee has reach problems without the reach mod normal melee has damage problems on anything that is not a blunt or ether

your RANGED weapon can work up close normal melee can not hit that far away

most guns are perfectly accuret outside of scope and do the same damage

you bring fury into this you can be using a speed reload mod or a speed shooting mod

melee does not get multishot

I dont want like 220% damage for pressure point maybe just 100% :/

[Onite]

OK.

 

Even without Charge Damage....

 

You're telling me you want a Scindo that does 125 Base Damage (+150%), every swing, to multiple targets?

 

Before Elemental Damage?

 

If Pressure Point were boosted to 150%, a Scindo with Pressure Point + North Wind + Molten Impact + Shocking Touch, all maxed, assuming no Armor/Armor Pierce would do a whopping:

 

125 Base Damage + 90% from Molten Impact = 237.5 Damage.

125 Base Damage + 60% from North Wind = 200 Damage.

125 Base Damage + 30% from Shocking Touch = 162.5 Damage

 

Add them up: 600 Damage Per Swing to Multiple Mobs.

 

........ya. Overpowered.

And yet you can have more than 815 damage on a strun. Your arguement is invalid.

 

Or even 143 damage x2 a shot on a braton with max firing speed mod alone out DPS' the scindo extremely quickly.

 

Its NOT overpowered for a melee weapon. Its also the slowest melee weapon in the game.

[Xylia]

melee does not get multishot

 

Except, some weapons do -- many weapons hit more than one mob with a single swing for full damage on each mob hit.

 

Shotguns can do that, but the damage is spread out over the number of pellets. If you fire a Hek and hit two enemies, you don't get 140 on 2, you get anywhere from 139-1 to 70-70 and anything in-between.

 

Meanwhile, that Heavy does 50 base damage on everything you smack with that swing and/or ground pound.

 

And no gun is capable of knocking anything off of its feet, unlike ground pounds with a Heavy weapon.

 

I can't say I ever saw a Hek knock something off its feet.

 

Oh, and with shotguns, there's no guarantee you get the full 140 damage on a Hek shot.

 

Bad shot, or mid-range? You're probably only doing 75% of that 140 base.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Xylia

[Onite]

Except, some weapons do -- many weapons hit more than one mob with a single swing for full damage on each mob hit.

 

Shotguns can do that, but the damage is spread out over the number of pellets. If you fire a Hek and hit two enemies, you don't get 140 on 2, you get anywhere from 139-1 to 70-70 and anything in-between.

 

Meanwhile, that Heavy does 50 base damage on everything you smack with that swing and/or ground pound.

 

And no gun is capable of knocking anything off of its feet, unlike ground pounds with a Heavy weapon.

 

I can't say I ever saw a Hek knock something off its feet.

 

Oh, and with shotguns, there's no guarantee you get the full 140 damage on a Hek shot.

 

Bad shot, or mid-range? You're probably only doing 75% of that 140 base.

 

Thats not multishot. That would only be equivalent to puncture.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Puncture_%28Mechanic%29

Edited June 5, 2013 by Onite

[f3llyn]

Charge attacks require you to stand still and can be interrupted.

 

Scindo/Fragor/Gram have Momentum, which means you can keep swinging through some hits.

 

And don't forget that a Heavy Grineer takes 150% of AP damage to his body, so don't forget to multiply that 113 damage by 1.5 (which comes out to 170 damage) + weapon damage + elemental damages. If you got lucky and were to nail him in the head, that would be 300% instead, according to Wiki. So that would be 339 damage + base + elemental damages instead.

 

Considering you could probably land about 2.5 - 3 normal swings (with Fury), move while doing so, have a lot less chance of being interrupted, yeah, the normal swinging is more overpowered if Pressure Point really did give 150% instead of the 42% it now gives.

 

Errr..dunno what game you're playing but charge attacks in fact do not require you to stand still.

[Tyrian3k]

Except, some weapons do -- many weapons hit more than one mob with a single swing for full damage on each mob hit.

 

Shotguns can do that, but the damage is spread out over the number of pellets. If you fire a Hek and hit two enemies, you don't get 140 on 2, you get anywhere from 139-1 to 70-70 and anything in-between.

 

Meanwhile, that Heavy does 50 base damage on everything you smack with that swing and/or ground pound.

 

And no gun is capable of knocking anything off of its feet, unlike ground pounds with a Heavy weapon.

 

I can't say I ever saw a Hek knock something off its feet.

 

Oh, and with shotguns, there's no guarantee you get the full 140 damage on a Hek shot.

 

Bad shot, or mid-range? You're probably only doing 75% of that 140 base.

 

You deal reduced damage if you hit multiple targets in melee (~66%).

 

Let's assume that charge attacks and normal melee attacks are balanced without mods.

 

Normal attacks get 60% speed, elemental/AP damage and 42% bonus damage.

Charge attacks get 60% speed, elemental/AP damage and 150% bonus damage.

 

Like that charge attacks deal about 76% more damage than normal attacks and on top of that ignore armor of enemies. Yup, seems totally balanced to me.

 

Also, why would I want to knock an enemy off its feet if I can just kill it in one or two shots?

 

 

 

But back on topic:

 

The requirements to bring a mod to level 10 are really a bit over the top. There's no way that farming mods for 1000 hours of playtime is the endgame of Warframe. Most people will never even get enough mods to even consider getting a mod to level 10.

[Keetsune]

Also, why would I want to knock an enemy off its feet if I can just kill it in one or two shots?

 

Yeah it's so easy to fight vs 1 lvl mobs :D

 

Want calculations ok, lets pick ur belowed scido:

 

Regular atacks:

 

50*1,42=71 base(normal element damage)

71*0,9=64 AP elemental damage.

 

60+ medium greeners have about 100% resist to all elements except toxic & AP.

 

So per swing on 60+ medium greener u doing 64*1,5=96 damage from AP and almost 0 DMG from all other elemetns.

 

Charged atacks:

 

200*1,42*2,5=710 base(normal element damage)

710*0,9=639 AP elemental damage.

 

So per hit on 60+ medium greener u doing 710 + 639*1,5 = 1668,5 damage. It's 17 times more than regular atacks.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Keetsune

[plznohurtme]

Yeah it's so easy to fight vs 1 lvl mobs :D

 

Want calculations ok, lets pick ur belowed scido:

 

Regular atacks:

 

50*1,42=71 base(normal element damage)

71*0,9=64 AP elemental damage.

 

60+ medium greeners have about 100% resist to all elements except toxic & AP.

 

So per swing on 60+ medium greener u doing 64*1,5=96 damage from AP and almost 0 DMG from all other elemetns.

 

Charged atacks:

 

200*1,42*2,5=710 base(normal element damage)

710*0,9=639 AP elemental damage.

 

So per hit on 60+ medium greener u doing 710 + 639*1,5 = 1668,5 damage. It's 17 times more than regular atacks.

Pressure Point doesn't have any effect on charge damage. Don't really care about the stupid melee argument that seems to be going on in this thread, since that's definitely not what it was about, but I figured someone should straighten that out now.

OT: High rank mods are fine, fortunately they didn't make them "bad" then stretch them out, they're quite a large amount better than most elemental modifiers (serration 90% costs 9 energy for example). Yes if you're min/maxing you probably want it to be maximum, however that's hardly a barrier to doing anything. I do have max serration, and could have max hornet strike et all, but there just isn't any particular reason to do it. I've got a good balance of energy cost between my weapons/frame and other than my polarized Braton Vandal don't see the necessity. Eventually these things will happen if you want them.

[Keetsune]

Don't really care about the stupid melee argument that seems to be going on in this thread

There is no logic in ur words.

[unmog]

Max'd Serration is not necessary in the slightest. I'd argue that anything above rank 10 is just straight-up min-maxing. It's meant to be a difficult goal to reach with a decent benefit. I have a maxed Serration, and I'll admit it took a lot of fusion cores to get there. I'm working on a second one now, too, at rank 10 currently.

 

It doesn't really need fixing.

same really with max level redirection and vitality. Would be nice to have but gotta work for it.

[BloodRiot]

am I missing something here?

 

surely i didn't understand something properly.

 

Last night I leveled my serration from rank 9 to rank 10, and while it took quite a few mods (mostly common and uncommon rank 4's) and a few fusion cores.. i'd say the total for the fusion was in the tens of mods/cores 50 at most. I used up a few excess rares of the same polarity and managed to use all the V mods that i don't need but still... i only had 4 extra serration and all at rank 4 (the base rank).

 

Where are you ppl getting those astronomical numbers? like 1600 mods/cores needed from 9 to 10?

 

oO

[Shifty_Shuffler]

am I missing something here?

 

 i only had 4 extra serration and all at rank 4 (the base rank).

 

Thats is it's power consumption, not rank. Rank is shown by the text on the right under the picture and also by the white notches on the left.

[BloodRiot]

Ah gotcha.. thanks for the clarification.

 

It all makes sense now :)

[MoonicusMaximus]

But back on topic:

 

The requirements to bring a mod to level 10 are really a bit over the top. There's no way that farming mods for 1000 hours of playtime is the endgame of Warframe. Most people will never even get enough mods to even consider getting a mod to level 10.

 

Nobody has ever once stated that maxing your white damage mods is the endgame of Warframe. Currently, Warframe doesn't have an endgame. Most mods in the game don't even go to level 10; the few that do require a lot of energy to get that far, for the added bonus. There is no problem with the current energy requirement.

[DeadlyNerd]

You obviously didn't read the part about where if you have a maxed AP mod on, the theoretical Scindo with the 150% Pressure Point would do a whopping ~250-300 guaranteed damage to Heavy Grineer, BEFORE adding in the other elemental damages.

Since when is 50+150%*50 350?

 

I know I'm again straying away from the topic, but where'd you get taught math?

 

 

am I missing something here?

 

surely i didn't understand something properly.

 

Last night I leveled my serration from rank 9 to rank 10, and while it took quite a few mods (mostly common and uncommon rank 4's) and a few fusion cores.. i'd say the total for the fusion was in the tens of mods/cores 50 at most. I used up a few excess rares of the same polarity and managed to use all the V mods that i don't need but still... i only had 4 extra serration and all at rank 4 (the base rank).

 

Where are you ppl getting those astronomical numbers? like 1600 mods/cores needed from 9 to 10?

 

oO

I'm actually surprised how is index finger didn't break due to all the clicking^^.

Edited June 5, 2013 by DeadlyNerd

[ra9una]

serration is common right? So then 9->10 takes 2048 points, if you're using other mods with different polaritys (worst case) then you get 25% mod points. Common mods give 4 points so 4x.25=1 so you need 2048 mods of the worst caliber to get serration to 10...It sucks but it's clear at least. 

 

 

 

Since when is 50+150%*50 350?

 

I know I'm again straying away from the topic, but where'd you get taught math?

 

 

I'm actually surprised how is index finger didn't break due to all the clicking^^.

 

 

Forget the arithmetics...he said a 150% presure point....PP maxed does 42%.....oh now it makes sense, he meant killing blow thus 

 

(200x1.5)+200=.........500 Okay were the hell did 350 come from?

Edited June 5, 2013 by ra9una

[Keetsune]

serration is common right? 

It's uncommon

 

U need 512 Serration Mods(which is uncomon) to lvl it from 9 to 10 or 4096 common mods with different polarity.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Keetsune

[Xylia]

Forget the arithmetics...he said a 150% presure point....PP maxed does 42%.....oh now it makes sense, he meant killing blow thus 

 

(200x1.5)+200=.........500 Okay were the hell did 350 come from?

 

I'm talking about a Theoretical 150% Pressure Point, because someone in the thread said "Pressure Point is Too Weak, it should be buffed to Serration's level"

 

Serration is currently 165% last I checked. For easy math's sake, we are going to assume 150%.

 

Theoretically, if Pressure Point were buffed to 150%....

 

Gram/Scindo/Fragor do a base of 50 per normal melee swing.

 

If Pressure Point gave 150%, this 50 would be modified to 50+75 = 125 base damage.

 

Sundering Strike adds 90% Armor Piercing Damage. So, 90% of 125 = 112.5.

 

However.... Heavy Grineer take 150% damage to their body from Armor Piercing Damage.

 

This means the AP mod would be doing 169 damage by itself, nothing else added.

 

Add in the Weapon's Base, and the potential Fire/Ice/Lightning damage, and you come up with something in the ballpark of 350 a swing.

 

I will admit I made a couple minor mistakes (adding in the weapon's base a couple extra times) but still. 350 a swing is still a bit too powerful. *shrug*

 

Anyways, as I said earlier in the thread, they should tone down the number of mods needed for Redirection, Vitality, Serration, and Steel Fiber.