Anti-One-Shot Mechanics.

[Epsik-kun]

Thoughts:

One of the things that bothers me in Warframe is a high amount of literal one-shots caused by broken scaling in the game.

I do realise, that having myself overstayed in, say, T4S, I have to face some danger, so the fact of the scaling is perfectly fine. But the way it does its work it's end up in few particular enemies being able to destroy you in a blink of an eye.

And this game has a problem, that's called lag. You can be good like a god, move around like a wind and dodge bullets like a Neo, but if the game lags just for a moment, boom - you eat three bombard missiles with you backside, now you're dead, deal with it.

 

I don't like being helpless in a game. I don't like the feeling of frustration of not being able to do anything, to not have any control over the situation, to not have any chance to save myself, no matter how hard might it be.

Really, dying in a game knowing you might survived have you reacted faster/done better is a whole different feeling, than just dying because of "to hell with you, I am lvl 100 Corpus Tech".

 

So what I am asking about is - how about introducing a mechanics, that will prevent literal one-shots. For example, in Borderlands there's a thing called "Health Gate", which essentially means you can't die in one shot, if you have over 50%+2 HP. If you receive a blow, that could've killed you right away, you'll go down to 1 HP and get a few frames of invulnerability, so you can do something about it.

It brought quite a weird way of playing though, which is resulted in lowering you maximum HP to an absurdly low number (like having 500 hp against enemies that deal several thousands of damage with every shot) and life-stealing all the time.

And, given Warframe has few sources of lifesteal or quick healing, doing exactly the same thing might result in the same weirdness.

 

However, Warframe also has shields, which are as far as I know pretty hard to keep recharging in the heat of the combat. So why don't use them for this?

Like, if you have any shield up, and you receive a blow that could've killed you immediately, you won't be able to die for like half of a second, giving you a brief period of time to finish casting your CC, finish getting behind the cover and such.

 

tl;dr How about making your shield prevent you from dying instantly by giving you about a half second immunity to death (not damage) when they go down?

[Stratego89]

I say a hard NO to any form of invincibility for any period of time. That being said... Someone else suggested something very similar. Damage doesn't bleed through shields. Aka say you have 100 health and 100 shields. You take 1000 damage. Your shields are gone- your health is untouched. You take another 1000 damage. You are now dead.

 

It's a simple you-cannot-be-one-shot mechanic, but it is not overpowered. It scales infinitely. No matter how much damage an enemy does, it will never one-shot you. True- late enough game any high rof enemy is still going to shred you; but firstly the whole point of enemy scaling is to kill you eventually, so that's not an issue, and secondly it's better than what we have now and it would encourage moving around and paying attention even more than it does now- once you are at that point.

 

THAT is a mechanic I would approve of. I figured since it's very similar to this I'd just bring it up.

[AdunSaveMe]

I say a hard NO to any form of invincibility for any period of time. That being said... Someone else suggested something very similar. Damage doesn't bleed through shields. Aka say you have 100 health and 100 shields. You take 1000 damage. Your shields are gone- your health is untouched. You take another 1000 damage. You are now dead.

 

It's a simple you-cannot-be-one-shot mechanic, but it is not overpowered. It scales infinitely. No matter how much damage an enemy does, it will never one-shot you. True- late enough game any high rof enemy is still going to shred you; but firstly the whole point of enemy scaling is to kill you eventually, so that's not an issue, and secondly it's better than what we have now and it would encourage moving around and paying attention even more than it does now- once you are at that point.

 

THAT is a mechanic I would approve of. I figured since it's very similar to this I'd just bring it up.

This right here (usually referred to as shield gating) is exactly the solution we need to avoid one hit kills.

It's the perfect balance and alleviates a lot of the issues with infinite scaling without making it irrelevant.

 

A small period of invincibility isn't quite the way to go.

Edited December 22, 2015 by AdunSaveMe

[EmptyDevil]

I support both methods but mostly damage not bleeding over into our health. Warframe definitely needs a shield gate to alleviate some problems with high-damage enemies.

 

-Edit-

 

For anyone that wants examples on shield gating and how either method could work for Warframe, click here.

Edited December 23, 2015 by EmptyDevil

[EmptyDevil]

This right here (usually referred to as shield gating) is exactly the solution we need to avoid one hit kills.

It's the perfect balance and alleviates a lot of the issues with infinite scaling without making it irrelevant.

 

A small period of invincibility isn't quite the way to go.

 

Op's is also called shield gating. I know he says it's from Borderlands but Mass Effect 3 also has one similar i think.

Edited December 22, 2015 by EmptyDevil

[direcyphre]

Or just use Quick Thinking. Modding and using warframe abilities are all part of survival. Tower 4 missions in particular are where enemies definitely do more damage, but people seem to pull through just fine.

[Drufo]

I say a hard NO to any form of invincibility for any period of time. That being said... Someone else suggested something very similar. Damage doesn't bleed through shields. Aka say you have 100 health and 100 shields. You take 1000 damage. Your shields are gone- your health is untouched. You take another 1000 damage. You are now dead.

 

It's a simple you-cannot-be-one-shot mechanic, but it is not overpowered. It scales infinitely. No matter how much damage an enemy does, it will never one-shot you. True- late enough game any high rof enemy is still going to shred you; but firstly the whole point of enemy scaling is to kill you eventually, so that's not an issue, and secondly it's better than what we have now and it would encourage moving around and paying attention even more than it does now- once you are at that point.

 

THAT is a mechanic I would approve of. I figured since it's very similar to this I'd just bring it up.

I saw this suggestion before, and I support it. Now that we have Sorties, Ballistas have become a real thorn in the flesh, because, whatever you're doing, if one of those is aiming at you on the far side of the room BOOM you're dead with no chance to counterattack

 

Or just use Quick Thinking. Modding and using warframe abilities are all part of survival. Tower 4 missions in particular are where enemies definitely do more damage, but people seem to pull through just fine.

 

Quick thinking as of now is pretty broken, since you get stunned when it works, giving enemies plenty of time to kill you

Edited December 22, 2015 by Drufo

[AdunSaveMe]

Op's is also called shield gating. I know he says it's from Borderlands but Mass Effect also has one similar i think.

Mass Effect's doesn't give you a period of invulnerability as far as I remember. It just doesn't leak damage.

[Epsik-kun]

Damage doesn't bleed through shields.

I considered this exact thing first, but ended up with a conclusion it won't work that good in Warframe. The reason being it will help you against stand-alone Bombards only. You eat two missiles at the same time - you are dead. You allow Corpus Tech to shoot at you - you are dead. You are facing Juggernaut - you are dead, etc. And I think that's exact the reason why Borderlands also uses the brief invincibility mechanics.

 

Also, having a brief window of not-dying will only save you if you are already doing something to save yourself. For example, getting hit by a bombard missile results in you falling down, essentially wasting your window. So you have to be already moving towards a cover, blocking or being in a middle of casting your CC for this to save you. It is pretty balanced this way.

[AdunSaveMe]

 

I considered this exact thing first, but ended up with a conclusion it won't work that good in Warframe. The reason being it will help you against stand-alone Bombards only. You eat two missiles at the same time - you are dead. You allow Corpus Tech to shoot at you - you are dead. You are facing Juggernaut - you are dead, etc. And I think that's exact the reason why Borderlands also uses the brief invincibility mechanics.

Techs aren't the point, that's not why shield gating as a mechanic is being suggested. It's things like the ballista, which can and will instakill you across the map before you even know it exists, standing in behind a group of taller grineer or having literally just turned a corner and quickscoped you.

 

If you get killed in one shot that you can't avoid, your skill is completely and utterly irrelevant. That's what shield gating fixes. While one could argue that you shouldn't get hit in the first place, one could also argue that infinite scaling and instakills as a replacement for an interesting challenge is just rubbish.

 

Shield gating gives you a window to make a move that either leaves you alive or dead depending purely on your actions, instead of it being entirely in the hands of the game which might as well just roll a dice to see if you die or not.

Edited December 22, 2015 by AdunSaveMe

[Stratego89]

Techs aren't the point, that's not why shield gating as a mechanic is being suggested. It's things like the ballista, which can and will instakill you across the map before you even know it exists, standing in behind a group of taller grineer or having literally just turned a corner and quickscoped you.

 

If you get killed in one shot that you can't avoid, your skill is completely and utterly irrelevant. That's what shield gating fixes.

Couldn't have said it better myself. The 5 things I fear most in this game are quickscope ballistas, cross-map bombard tracking, man-eating doors, surprise hug butchers, and stunlock rollers. In that order. "Shield-Gating" as it's apparently called would fix at least half of those- most of which basically cancel out skill play with sheer bad luck.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Stratego89

[AdunSaveMe]

Couldn't have said it better myself. The 5 things I fear most in this game are quickscope ballistas, cross-map bombard tracking, man-eating doors, surprise hug butchers, and stunlock rollers. In that order. "Shield-Gating" as it's apparently called would fix at least half of those- most of which basically cancel out skill play with sheer bad luck.

Man, I really should edit things faster. Afterthoughts make for weird quote chains.

 

Ballistas and bombards are basically the worst offenders. One is hitscan and insanely accurate and has almost no margin for error on the players' part, and the other fires rockets that can turn in full circles, explode through walls and shields, and randomly launch three or four at a time.

[Epsik-kun]

It's things like the ballista, which can and will instakill you across the map

Level 110 ballista requires at least three shots to kill a somewhat tanky frame. Level 80 Corpus Tech requires a second to start firing at you and you're dead.

 

Anyway, Techs indeed aren't the point. There are still a couple of Bombards (you will have more than one constantly around you if they are already at the point they can one-shot you. And you are very likely to get hit exactly by all missiles simultaneously due to their homing behavior), a couple of Ballistas, a couple of literally anything, Juggernaut. All these will completely ignore the whole damage doesn't go over shields thing, essentially adding a mechanics that won't change anything.

[Stratego89]

 

Level 110 ballista requires at least three shots to kill a somewhat tanky frame. Level 80 Corpus Tech requires a second to start firing at you and you're dead.

 

Anyway, Techs indeed aren't the point. There are still a couple of Bombards (you will have more than one constantly around you if they are already at the point they can one-shot you. And you are very likely to get hit exactly by all missiles simultaneously due to their homing behavior), a couple of Ballistas, a couple of literally anything, Juggernaut. All these will completely ignore the whole damage doesn't go over shields thing, essentially adding a mechanics that won't change anything.

 

Yes. A TANKY frame. Shield gating isn't MEANT for tanky frames. They don't NEED a "don't oneshotmebro" mechanic. SQUISH frames do...

[EmptyDevil]

Mass Effect's doesn't give you a period of invulnerability as far as I remember. It just doesn't leak damage.

 

Hence why i said similar and it might be ME3(multiplayer) that i'm thinking of. The invulnerability is incredibly brief IIRC and only noticeable if you're being fired at by something with a high RoF.

Edited December 22, 2015 by EmptyDevil

[Epsik-kun]

Yes. A TANKY frame. Shield gating isn't MEANT for tanky frames. They don't NEED a "don't oneshotmebro" mechanic. SQUISH frames do...

Don't scream at me. The point is, they still will be one-shotted. Ok, technically it would be a two-shot, but amount of the time required will be equal.

 

A small period of invincibility isn't quite the way to go.

Also. It isn't a "small period of invincibility", it's a "small period of being unable to die". And it is necessary for the whole anti-one-shot mechanics to have an actual impact on the game. Only having shields to prevent you from getting health damage will just rise a problem of two-shots, which will have about the same amount of appearances one-shots have now.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Epsik-kun

[Stratego89]

 

Don't scream at me. The point is, they still will be one-shotted. Ok, technically it would be a two-shot, but amount of the time required will be equal.

 

I don't scream. I use capitals for emphasis on words- not yelling. (bolding is slower to do, sorry). No. It won't require the same amount of time. Anything like a ballista that 1shots you has a low rate of fire. Also- even if it takes the same amount of time- there is the TINY moment you have with this method to react- rather than just being killed by something you don't even know is there without a chance to react. Also- if you're going to bring up techs again. Techs do not 1shot. Techs have a long wind up time, and rely on constantly keeping their damage on you to deal their high DPS. The only way that happens is if you're sitting there or walking up to them instead of running fast and getting away like you should.

[Epsik-kun]

That's why I said "a couple of Ballistas". You won't face just one Ballista when she's on a point she can one-shot you. You'll face a lot of them. And you'll walk into the range of multiple of them simultaneously. And they will kill you anyway. What you think is happening when you get "one-shotted" is that at the very same moment you also eat about five Bombard missiles, twelve Ballista shots, and two hundred seventy four regular bullets from Lancers. Leave the Tech alone, what has he done to you, that you're clinging so much to him?

And there's also always a problem of a lag.

 

I am pretty sure, that every game that has a similar mechanics actually working uses either a brief invulnerability period or a brief inability to die period. I'm suggesting the usage of latter, as it is more punishing.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Epsik-kun

[tnccs215]

Also. It isn't a "small period of invincibility", it's a "small period of being unable to die". And it is necessary for the whole anti-one-shot mechanics to have an actual impact on the game. Only having shields to prevent you from getting health damage will just rise a problem of two-shots, which will have about the same amount of appearances one-shots have now.

Those are synonyms, but I agree with you. Otherwise, we got quick thinking again: "Congrats, you are still alive! You do are stun locked so you are dying anyway, but yey!". That is, you need time to react in order to prevent death. Specially on a game with high enemy density: You never fight against one, you fight against at least two.

With that in mind, I honestly think 1 second (or even just half) of invulnerability, coupled with a stagger upon getting your shields one-shotted (serving has both a "you got one shotted. Next time, you wont be this lucky" warning, and because it simply seems... Likely to happen (I mean, if you got a blow that reduces your shielding to shreds, it make sense that you studer a bit) would be a very nice implementation.

[EmptyDevil]

This is how the health invulnerability after shield collapse works. This is from Mass Effect's wiki(i edited out the health gate part):

 

Shepard and player characters in multiplayer receive a slightly different version of the gate effect on both their shield/barrier and health. Instead of a reduction in the "excess" damage that would have bypassed barrier/shield, players gain a temporary immunity to any damage once their shields/barrier is depleted ("shield gate")This invulnerability is dependent on difficulty and lasts as follows:

 

Narrative: 1.0 seconds

Casual: .75 seconds

Normal/Bronze: .5 seconds

Hardcore/Silver: .25 seconds

Insanity/Gold: .1 seconds

Platinum: .01 seconds

 

There is a further "cooldown" on the gate effects to prevent players from being invulnerable too often (as would be otherwise possible on low difficulties with low shield regen delays thanks to powers and gear). The shield gate has a cooldown of 4 seconds.

 

 

[Epsik-kun]

That's called a shield gate iirc.

It's a good mechanic.

It worked in borderlands at least.

 

One of the only mechanics that were actually balanced.

In Borderlands there was no shield gate mechanics. There was a health gate mechanics, I've wrote about it (being too scared to read long texts, huh?)

 

Also it was abused heavily.

[EmptyDevil]

In Borderlands there was no shield gate mechanics. There was a health gate mechanics, I've wrote about it (being too scared to read long texts, huh?)

 

Also it was abused heavily.

 

How was it abused?

[Epsik-kun]

How was it abused?

I had wrote about that too, you meanies.

 

Shield that reduces your HP to few hundreds + anything with Life Leach. You are essentially immortal if you keep shooting.

Also the whole idea of Zero being able to survive 80+ enemies is the abuse of the health gate (he doesn't need a health reducing shield for this though), as you get constantly one-shotted, then you hit something with Ruby/Grogg - HP is full, you immediately get one-shotted again, rinse and repeat.

That's the reason I don't suggest the actual health gate, but the shield gate - it would be harder to abuse.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

If can't agree with a Universal 'Shield-gate' mechanic.

The change to revive system is much more forgiving than old system.

Quick-Thinking Stagger should just be removed and then we are back to a where an actual-obe shot on most frames is soo high for Enemy level we shouldn't be complaining.

Manics used to be a threat and have now been nerfed into irrelevance - becuase players did not like feeling helpless against that Enemy type.

The new threats with Sentients is them becoming Bullet/melee sponges....which is not so much they are a threat aside from their resilience.

I am in favor of a Shield-gate Mod, however I can see a couple frames being overpowered and/or Team Shield Restores would be used to cheese mission difficulty.

Mag would be almost unkillable with the ability to refresh Shield-gate (Actually would be nice if it was part of her Augment)

Trinity with 99% Blessing Quick-Thinking and Link allows a player to avoid stagger-death if Linked.

Defy - basically working as a Heal-type gate (Personally I think the Invincibility window should be a Health-gate with diminishing 75% heal....with no Invincibility)

Raksa Kubrow's Protect or Sentinel's Guardian could be a good way to implement a Shield-gate without adding a new mod or making it the mechanic completely innate.

- Balance issue would arise where if Companion died you no longer have a Shield-gate to avoid death.

Technically would promote melee users with Raksa Kubrow having better survivability than a non-healer Warframe with Guardian Sentinel.

Edited December 22, 2015 by (PS4)MrNishi

[EmptyDevil]

 

I had wrote about that too, you meanies.

 

Shield that reduces your HP to few hundreds + anything with Life Leach. You are essentially immortal if you keep shooting.

Also the whole idea of Zero being able to survive 80+ enemies is the abuse of the health gate (he doesn't need a health reducing shield for this though), as you get constantly one-shotted, then you hit something with Ruby/Grogg - HP is full, you immediately get one-shotted again, rinse and repeat.

That's the reason I don't suggest the actual health gate, but the shield gate - it would be harder to abuse.

 

 

Ah i see. I'm not that familiar with Borderlands so i was wondering. A shield gate definitely sounds better than a health gate.

 

If can't agree with a Universal 'Shield-gate' mechanic.

The change to revive system is much more forgiving than old system.

Quick-Thinking Stagger should just be removed and then we are back to a where an actual-obe shot on most frames is soo high for Enemy level we shouldn't be complaining.

Manics used to be a threat and have now been nerfed into irrelevance - becuase players did not like feeling helpless against that Enemy type.

The new threats with Sentients is them becoming Bullet/melee sponges....which is not so much they are a threat aside from their resilience.

I am in favor of a Shield-gate Mod, however I can see a couple frames being overpowered and/or Team Shield Restores would be used to cheese mission difficulty.

Mag would be almost unkillable with the ability to refresh Shield-gate (Actually would be nice if it was part of her Augment)

Trinity with 99% Blessing Quick-Thinking and Link allows a player to avoid stagger-death if Linked.

Defy - basically working as a Heal-type gate (Personally I think the Invincibility window should be a Health-gate with diminishing 75% heal....with no Invincibility)

Raksa Kubrow's Protect or Sentinel's Guardian could be a good way to implement a Shield-gate without adding a new mod or making it the mechanic completely innate.

- Balance issue would arise where if Companion died you no longer have a Shield-gate to avoid death.

Technically would promote melee users with Raksa Kubrow having better survivability than a non-healer Warframe with Guardian Sentinel.

 

The revive system and a anti-oneshot mechanic doesn't correlate in the way you're looking at it. Our revives refill after failing a mission or leaving because it was a cashgrab that penalized new/ignorant players.

 

A shield gate is about enriching gameplay by removing oneshot kills and allowing players to react accordingly to multiple high damage enemies. The fact that oneshot kills exist is a reason players place so much importance and strong preference on specific frames.

 

- Quick Thinking acts as a health gate but drains energy for it's effect. It doesn't need a change and won't be broken with a shield gate.

 

- Manics and Sentients(new faction expect changes) are completely irrelevant to the topic.

 

- No to any form of shield-gate mod for frames or companions, It would be a bandaid to a necessary change to shield functions. 

 

- Giving only one frame a shield gate via augment wouldn't be a smart decision at all. It would place importance and preference on that frame for high level enemies. All frames should be a valid choice for surviving - with or without CC.

 

- Team shield restores, Blessing, Shield Polarize, Protect, Guardian, and any form of shield restoration wouldn't refresh a shield gate mechanic if the gating effect had a cooldown like ME3.

 

- Abilities that make a frame virtually immortal could disable the shield gate and place it on cooldown to keep it balanced.

Edited December 22, 2015 by EmptyDevil