Naramon's Shadow Step Is Overpowered

[styxonfire]

You need to melee to crit. Thats the trade off. It encourages you to use melee. Thats the point of the school.

How is it OP because you can do a survival? Players have been doing that for ages.

It doesn't replace Loki because the duration is not as long or reliable. Its only useful for melee in a crowd, you're not going to sneak around levels with it.

You don't get the point.

Its how its invisibility can synergize with other frames that aren't Loki or Ash.

Let me ask you this. Can you solo a Hydroid in T4 Survival for one hour melee only?

[Endrance]

How the hack i edit post on mobile?

Nvm, you can take a bad frame to high level? You shield be gratefull, not complaining

[Shin]

If you watched my Hydroid run, you can clearly see that all I needed to do is whack people till I see yellow. I don't mind uploading un-sped up version of it if you don't mind waiting.

Ash and Loki have a cast time, while Shadow Step DOES NOT. And have you actually watched my videos regarding this? I'm just saying that 10 seconds of invisibility that can be strapped to any other frame is already overpowered. My videos have involved a freshly unlocked Shadow Step and two others that are just one level/rank away from maxed. 

So, are you saying you want the game to be easier than it already is by letting everyone have built-in invisibility? 

Ash and loki having casting time doesnt mean a thing. You can cast it on air, if not going into cover and casting it will save you from anything. On Ash, you can use Arcane Trickery to be invisible for 20 seconds and you have more than one way to achieve that. If you ask me Arcane Trickery is superior to Shadow step but thats my opinion.

 

Other frames having invisibility doesnt really make anything easier. Its just another way to stay alive. Any frame is able to stay alive and keep themselves going. Mag can use Augment and shield polarize to stay alive. Hydroid has 2 ways to be immune to everything anytime they want. Oberon can heal himself and mass panic the mobs. Nyx can indefinitely stay alive thanks to her godlike CC and Absorb.

 

The point is, you dont need Shadow step to be powerful and be all godlike. Sure it would make things easy for a person who's entirely depending on invisibility but in the hands of an experienced player, its just another tool at their disposal.

 

I mainly play with Loki Ash mag and valkyr but i do not feel the need of using Naramon. Im Using Madurai currently. 

 

Im sorry if im sounding like im attacking you but im not. Im just super tired of all the Nerf threads.

[PickleMonster21]

After reading a bit more into all this and seeing why people don't want this Passive nerfed, I have come up with two things that I, personally, would like done in terms of this.

1) Like I stated at the end of my earlier post:

At first, I just thought you were looking to nerf a really nice Passive. But then I looked into it.
I can agree with this, considering:
Ash has an ability which makes him invisible for (base) 2/4/6/8 seconds.
Loki has an ability which makes him invisible for (base) 5/7/9/12 seconds.
Shadow Step is a passive that lasts for (I'll take your word for it) 5/6/8/10 seconds.

So maxing Shadow Step and using a Nyx, you've just rendered a (base) Loki useless, and your invisibility now lasts longer than Ash's (at base Duration).

But instead of making it 1/2/3/4 or 2/3/4/5, why not keep the pattern of 1/2/4/6 (what I'd choose) or 2/3/5/7.

I currently have mine at 6 seconds, and I find this is an adequate duration for this ability.

Or, after reading that people like the duration at 10 seconds for Shadowstep,
2) Keep Shadowstep at 5/6/8/10, but buff Ash up to 6/8/10/12, and buff Loki up to 9/11/13/15

And the reason for this is simply because I don't think a Passive should be better than something a Warframe is supposed to specialise in.

Disclaimer: I know that people will be saying that this will make Ash's Smoke Screen last a tonne longer with mods, and Loki's Invisibility will last even longer, but I mean if Shadowstep doesn't come down, then the Abilities need to go up.

These are just my opinions. Read them and either agree or disagree with reasons. 

[styxonfire]

Hydroid was just used an example to show how overpowered Naramon is. A frame not having invisbility, a useless invulnerability, extremely lame gap closer/mobility skill and a tickling ultimate YET was able to last till 1 hour T4S with just 1 death using Naramon. It simply shows how overpowered Naramon is due to the free long invisbility.

 

We specifically use Hydroid for comparison because he basically has nothing to offer. It's a no brainer that Ash with Madurai is stronger, you just simply lack the comprehension to get the point of the thread.

 

So again, to get a better comparison of how good focuses are is to use it on a frame like Hydroid. Ash by itself w/o any focus can last 1 hour on T4S so he is completely irrelevant.

Did I mention that I didn't even cast a single warframe ability? (If Mind Spike counts, then thats the only thing I casted)

I did absolutely nothing other than melee my way to one hour... thats it. Thats how overpowered Naramon is.

[Shin]

After reading a bit more into all this and seeing why people don't want this Passive nerfed, I have come up with two things that I, personally, would like done in terms of this.

1) Like I stated at the end of my earlier post:

Or, after reading that people like the duration at 10 seconds for Shadowstep,

2) Keep Shadowstep at 5/6/8/10, but buff Ash up to 6/8/10/12, and buff Loki up to 9/11/13/15

And the reason for this is simply because I don't think a Passive should be better than something a Warframe is supposed to specialise in.

Disclaimer: I know that people will be saying that this will make Ash's Smoke Screen last a tonne longer with mods, and Loki's Invisibility will last even longer, but I mean if Shadowstep doesn't come down, then the Abilities need to go up.

These are just my opinions. Read them and either agree or disagree with reasons. 

Neither frames needs any sort of buff. Ash is not a stealth frame. Loki is already has a powerful stealth and only change he needs is that Decoy staying alive more than a split second.

 

Shadow step doesnt need any changes. Rework it into something fun? Yes but straight nerfs are a no. Because anything below 10 seconds will be too short.

 

Also Shadow step does not make Ash or Loki lose their thing. Invisibility is already quick to cast perhaps faster than swinging your favourite fast melee and ash is not even a stealth based frame so he doesnt lose anything. Ash will get changes anyway. Its been confirmed his Bladestorm will be reworked into something else and im imagining they'll touch his Smoke bomb too.

[LurkenLurker]

loki doesn't have only one button you know that right? can your nyx disarm enemies? can it teleport? can it cast decoys? no it cannot. by the same reasoning loki makes ash useless, abilities are bound to overlap each other on different frames, the whole point of focus is that you can get some defenses on frames that don't have them and some more offense on frames that are lacking in it, as it is now without shadow step melee is exclusive to an handful of frames  with powerful defense buffs, meanwhile zenurik is used to allow spammy-er builds to be viable and madurai is for those frames that only need more damage (valkyr, wukong etch.)

Well i play ash and loki and shadow step basicaly lets loki run a strait up radial disarm build and still have the easymode of a tailored  invisibility build. As for ash he can have his cake and eat it too arcan trickery was already a alternative to go balls to the wall on blade storm builds when you did not want to mod specificaly for smokescreen  now not only will trickery provide easymode stealth so will regular melee crits hell i will never have to mod for duration with ash again period. You mite as well put excalibur on the list as EB builds willn  now do even more dmg and be evermore present and annoying.

[styxonfire]

How the hack i edit post on mobile?

Nvm, you can take a bad frame to high level? You shield be gratefull, not complaining

I'm not grateful that the game can be cheesed this way already, trivializing endurance missions pretty much altogether, and potentially trivializing every other mission.

 

Ash and loki having casting time doesnt mean a thing. You can cast it on air, if not going into cover and casting it will save you from anything. On Ash, you can use Arcane Trickery to be invisible for 20 seconds and you have more than one way to achieve that. If you ask me Arcane Trickery is superior to Shadow step but thats my opinion.

 

Other frames having invisibility doesnt really make anything easier. Its just another way to stay alive. Any frame is able to stay alive and keep themselves going. Mag can use Augment and shield polarize to stay alive. Hydroid has 2 ways to be immune to everything anytime they want. Oberon can heal himself and mass panic the mobs. Nyx can indefinitely stay alive thanks to her godlike CC and Absorb.

 

The point is, you dont need Shadow step to be powerful and be all godlike. Sure it would make things easy for a person who's entirely depending on invisibility but in the hands of an experienced player, its just another tool at their disposal.

 

I mainly play with Loki Ash mag and valkyr but i do not feel the need of using Naramon. Im Using Madurai currently. 

 

Im sorry if im sounding like im attacking you but im not. Im just super tired of all the Nerf threads.

It does mean a thing because the cast speed at a wrong place can get you killed. The fact that it also has made Trickery rather useless in itself should also mean something since the requirement to proc is just to crit, compared to Trickery which can only by done by a handful of frames and/or can only be done with stealth finishers.

Hydroid can't stay alive in survival for so long because whats he gonna do? Undertow doesn't do much, Tidal Surge is essentially just a gap closer. The fact that this is arguably the most useless frame in a solo endurance run doesn't have to do any of that and can do 1 hour of T4 Survival is just overpowered. Now, like I said, if frames like Nova, Nyx, so on and so forth can become the offensive Loki, then there's another reason why its overpowered.

The point is that what Shadow Step offers at max rank is overpowered because if it can make an essentially useless frame in high tier endurance runs and cheese it, imagine if its strapped into frames that can utilize Shadow Step MUCH BETTER?

 

After reading a bit more into all this and seeing why people don't want this Passive nerfed, I have come up with two things that I, personally, would like done in terms of this.

1) Like I stated at the end of my earlier post:

Or, after reading that people like the duration at 10 seconds for Shadowstep,

2) Keep Shadowstep at 5/6/8/10, but buff Ash up to 6/8/10/12, and buff Loki up to 9/11/13/15

And the reason for this is simply because I don't think a Passive should be better than something a Warframe is supposed to specialise in.

Disclaimer: I know that people will be saying that this will make Ash's Smoke Screen last a tonne longer with mods, and Loki's Invisibility will last even longer, but I mean if Shadowstep doesn't come down, then the Abilities need to go up.

These are just my opinions. Read them and either agree or disagree with reasons. 

I vote for number 1

[LisRestall]

Oh boy, you didn t get it at all. While you need a crit weapon, i dont. While you need shadow Step, i dont.

So yeah, get your naramon, do What i do, Just worse, be happy.

You need a focus to do What i do. That was my point. You use it for invisibility, i use another to boost my damage.

You use naramon over unairu, makes sense, since you cant go invisi without it, But i can, só unairu is way better

If i explained myself bad, i apologize, But it seems it was way over your head.

The requirement to proc Shadow Step is NOT strict at all. I am using an Orthos Prime with just a 10% base chance to crit, it was never a popular crit weapon simply because the dps increase is better if you go for channel build or more base damage/elem build YET it's viable for Shadow Step.

 

The point wasn't about being able to do what you do. You obviously lack comprehension. The point was how Naramon is so powerful that it makes even a frame like Hydroid be able to do 1 hour of T4S even though the frame is specialized to do something else.

 

Stop saying things that are already obvious. Also, again, the point isn't about your Ash being better with Unairu or Madurai or whatever. It's about making non-viable for endless frames actually be viable just with the help of an overpowered focus.

[styxonfire]

Remind me how much time do you need to spend to actually unlock Shadow Step and make it competitive with Loki's invis?

So... you're trying to justify the effort needed to unlock it? Once you unlock it, you don't have to bother with it anymore.

[bl4ckhunter]

Well i play ash and loki and shadow step basicaly lets loki run a strait up radial disarm build and still have the easymode of a tailored  invisibility build. As for ash he can have his cake and eat it too arcan trickery was already a alternative to go balls to the wall on blade storm builds when you did not want to mod specificaly for smokescreen  now not only will trickery provide easymode stealth so will regular melee crits hell i will never have to mod for duration with ash again period. You mite as well put excalibur on the list as EB builds willn  now do even more dmg and be evermore present and annoying.

the only difference between my pure radial disarm and infinite invisibility+radial disarm+irradiating disarm augment is that one has -30% range from narrow minded becouse i dislike recasting too much, with zenurik you don't even need it since you regen energy 4x faster so there goes the difference, on loki you build duration efficiency and range since there's simply nothing else to build for, and you never had to mod duration on ash, you can't be damaged during bladestorm and if you aren't building for smokescreen you're building for bladestorm.

[LurkenLurker]

Neither frames needs any sort of buff. Ash is not a stealth frame. Loki is already has a powerful stealth and only change he needs is that Decoy staying alive more than a split second.

 

Shadow step doesnt need any changes. Rework it into something fun? Yes but straight nerfs are a no. Because anything below 10 seconds will be too short.

 

Also Shadow step does not make Ash or Loki lose their thing. Invisibility is already quick to cast perhaps faster than swinging your favourite fast melee and ash is not even a stealth based frame so he doesnt lose anything. Ash will get changes anyway. Its been confirmed his Bladestorm will be reworked into something else and im imagining they'll touch his Smoke bomb too.

If ash has an ability that willingly lets him stealth at will he can be and should  be noted as being a stealth  frame and be tailored like so sence it was one off his builds used before his buff. In terms of invise power ash now has a 1 up on loki as he can spec for compleat and total offence and still get steath comparable to a loki invis build without having to stack a single duration  mod. 

[styxonfire]

the only difference between my pure radial disarm and infinite invisibility+radial disarm+irradiating disarm augment is that one has -30% range from narrow minded becouse i dislike recasting too much, with zenurik you don't even need it since you regen energy 4x faster so there goes the difference, on loki you build duration efficiency and range since there's simply nothing else to build for, and you never had to mod duration on ash, you can't be damaged during bladestorm and if you aren't building for smokescreen you're building for bladestorm.

You can't be damaged while you can't be seen unless you're really, really, really asking for it. The fact that Ash can now further neglect ever touching Smoke Screen means Ash can do whatever he wants without ever getting hit.

[bl4ckhunter]

let's recap becouse all this confusion is getting on my nerves.

 

overpowered= outstanding/better than the alternatives

 

naramon: 10s of invisibility on melee crit (affinity is useless for all combat purposes and the crit chance buff is negligible at best)

 

marudai: +90% more weapon damage split between ips

 

zenurik: 4/s energy regeneration (for comparison hysteria's energy cost is 3/s)+20% additive energy efficiency for 30s on cast

 

unairu: 15% armor reduction on melee

 

varazin: heals objectives, revives allies at range and grants instant revives

 

is naramon overpowered? no it isn't. is focus too powerful? that's for de to decide

 

if anything unairu's underpowered.

Edited December 29, 2015 by bl4ckhunter

[styxonfire]

let's recap becouse all this confusion is getting on my nerves.

 

overpowered= outstanding/better than the alternatives

 

naramon: 10s of invisibility on melee crit (affinity is useless for all combat purposes and the crit chance buff is negligible at best)

 

marudai: +90% more weapon damage split between ips

 

zenurik: 4/s energy regeneration (for comparison hysteria's energy cost is 3/s)+20% additive energy efficiency for 30s on cast

 

unairu: 15% armor reduction on melee

 

varazin: heals objectives, revives allies at range and grants instant revives

 

is naramon overpowered? no it isn't. is focus too powerful? that's for de to decide

 

if anything unairu's underpowered.

So... 10 seconds of mobs not shooting you isn't overpowered?

[bl4ckhunter]

So... 10 seconds of mobs not shooting you isn't overpowered?

it's on par on having nearly double damage, and 4/s energy regeneration or instant revives. so no.

[LurkenLurker]

Narumon is broken stupid on some frames not all but the frames that can get the best use out off it can just crite and go to town dealing even more dmg. Excal and ash are two such frames who can run arcane trickery and shadow step and profit without sacrficing a damn thing in return.

[LurkenLurker]

it's on par on having nearly double damage, and 4/s energy regeneration or instant revives. so no.

Overpowering is when 1 passive negates the reason to touch a skill or mod for that build if you ask me one passive should not erase the need to ever touch a skill tied to duration like it dose. You can send his duration into the negative and it will infact make ash even more powerful excalibur to a degree also cuase you no longer will need to cast radial blind to save your &#! you can spam auto attack and profit. Now tell me do you see the concern Edited December 29, 2015 by LurkenLurker

[(PSN)MrNishi]

let's recap becouse all this confusion is getting on my nerves.

overpowered= outstanding/better than the alternatives

naramon: 10s of invisibility on melee crit (affinity is useless for all combat purposes and the crit chance buff is negligible at best)

marudai: +90% more weapon damage split between ips

zenurik: 4/s energy regeneration (for comparison hysteria's energy cost is 3/s)+20% additive energy efficiency for 30s on cast

unairu: 15% armor reduction on melee

varazin: heals objectives, revives allies at range and grants instant revives

is naramon overpowered? no it isn't. is focus too powerful? that's for de to decide

if anything unairu's underpowered.

Unairu is that odd ball out.

Melee with Viral & Shattering Impact with 15% Armor stripping passive allows a couple Warframes + Melee builds to be devastating against Armored units with no need for CP.

(Bit mainly solo oriented builds)

I think it should have been

15% melee (Yes Redeemer 10 pellet shots counts as Melee) and 5% Primary/Secondary

Would make it so there would be alternative Rogue anti-armor builds without needing Corrosive (Projection Aura nor Elemental Damage Type)

Edited December 29, 2015 by (PS4)MrNishi

[Shin]

It does mean a thing because the cast speed at a wrong place can get you killed. The fact that it also has made Trickery rather useless in itself should also mean something since the requirement to proc is just to crit, compared to Trickery which can only by done by a handful of frames and/or can only be done with stealth finishers.

There is just no way you go wrong with Invisibility or Ash Smoke bomb. I truly believe that noone can mess it up and get killed while doing it. If they are, they prob. know what they did wrong and should strive not to do that mistake anymore.

 

I only gave the Ash and Loki examples because thats what we were talking about but on the case of ther frames my point stands. Rest of the frames doesnt need Shadow step to stay alive and Arcane Trickery being rather useless is just a point of view. I always run with my Trickery cloak if im planning o using it.

 

 

Hydroid can't stay alive in survival for so long because whats he gonna do? Undertow doesn't do much, Tidal Surge is essentially just a gap closer. The fact that this is arguably the most useless frame in a solo endurance run doesn't have to do any of that and can do 1 hour of T4 Survival is just overpowered. Now, like I said, if frames like Nova, Nyx, so on and so forth can become the offensive Loki, then there's another reason why its overpowered.

Undertow helps you recover from tricky situations. Tidal surge makes you immune to damage and to be honest itsa great way to get away from such situations. True Hydroid himself doesnt have any interesting or unique way ot staying alive but he still does the job.

 

On the case of non stealth frames though, what im saying is you dont need Shadow step to be useful or Overpowered. Frames already have ways to deal with situations and this just gives you another way ot dealing with things. To be honest i never even thought about using Shadow step. It just doesnt look interesting in my eyes.

 

 

The point is that what Shadow Step offers at max rank is overpowered because if it can make an essentially useless frame in high tier endurance runs and cheese it, imagine if its strapped into frames that can utilize Shadow Step MUCH BETTER?

But anything less than 10 seconds just doesnt cut it. Recovering from slash animations and doing something roughly takes the half of the duration and those frames that can utilize it much better than the others prob, doesnt need it to do their thing.

 

 

If ash has an ability that willingly lets him stealth at will he can be and should  be noted as being a stealth  frame and be tailored like so sence it was one off his builds used before his buff. In terms of invise power ash now has a 1 up on loki as he can spec for compleat and total offence and still get steath comparable to a loki invis build without having to stack a single duration  mod. 

Ash has Offensive abilities at core. Shurikens are great with augment. Teleport opens them up for finishers which saves you from a lot of headache and Bladestorm is just makes you "Nope" a huge chunk of enemies while having the ability of triggering Arcane Trickery which is 10 times better than Shadow step or Smokebomb. 

 

Also with my Ash build i have reliable amount of stealth without wasting huge chunk of energy. Fleeting expertise is not the sole way of modding him.

 

Smokebomb staggers the mobs around you and is a perfect tool for saving people or getting away from tricky situations. You are not wrong about he having invisibility but he was never a stealth frame and should not be considered one ever. 

 

If nothing smokebomb should be turned into a proper Smoke bomb which makes an area of people invisible in a field of smoke.

[styxonfire]

There is just no way you go wrong with Invisibility or Ash Smoke bomb. I truly believe that noone can mess it up and get killed while doing it. If they are, they prob. know what they did wrong and should strive not to do that mistake anymore.

 

I only gave the Ash and Loki examples because thats what we were talking about but on the case of ther frames my point stands. Rest of the frames doesnt need Shadow step to stay alive and Arcane Trickery being rather useless is just a point of view. I always run with my Trickery cloak if im planning o using it.

 

 

Undertow helps you recover from tricky situations. Tidal surge makes you immune to damage and to be honest itsa great way to get away from such situations. True Hydroid himself doesnt have any interesting or unique way ot staying alive but he still does the job.

 

On the case of non stealth frames though, what im saying is you dont need Shadow step to be useful or Overpowered. Frames already have ways to deal with situations and this just gives you another way ot dealing with things. To be honest i never even thought about using Shadow step. It just doesnt look interesting in my eyes.

 

 

But anything less than 10 seconds just doesnt cut it. Recovering from slash animations and doing something roughly takes the half of the duration and those frames that can utilize it much better than the others prob, doesnt need it to do their thing.

 

 

Ash has Offensive abilities at core. Shurikens are great with augment. Teleport opens them up for finishers which saves you from a lot of headache and Bladestorm is just makes you "Nope" a huge chunk of enemies while having the ability of triggering Arcane Trickery which is 10 times better than Shadow step or Smokebomb. 

 

Also with my Ash build i have reliable amount of stealth without wasting huge chunk of energy. Fleeting expertise is not the sole way of modding him.

 

Smokebomb staggers the mobs around you and is a perfect tool for saving people or getting away from tricky situations. You are not wrong about he having invisibility but he was never a stealth frame and should not be considered one ever. 

 

If nothing smokebomb should be turned into a proper Smoke bomb which makes an area of people invisible in a field of smoke.

I'm just gonna make this as short as possible

Ash is an offensive frame. But with Trickery and Shadow Step now adding in to his abilities to survive, why does he need Smokebomb? Lets forget the cast speed since that argument is gonna be a loop. I'm talking about how Shadow Step synergizes with nearly every frame. If you watched my Hydroid T4 Survival Solo run (let me emphasize SOLO), I didn't have to cast a single ability he had. I just died ONCE and that was around the 40 minute mark and thats it... I even went on to hit 1 hour... and guess what I did? Just whack the crap out of anyone till I see yellow and keep whacking them till they die.

How is anything less than 10 seconds doesn't cut it? Thats just sheer spoonfeeding already and just makes the game way easier than it already is.

If you saw my Nova T4 Survival Solo run, I used a Neutral Nova (70% power strength so none of them are slowed or sped up) Nova became a Loki with Molecular Prime.

Mind you, I just had 8 seconds worth of invisibility because I haven't maxed it, and I was still able to run them an hour each.

With my Atlas run, which was just freshly unlocked, I was able to hit an hour. Its just a matter of skill and on-the-move decision making. If I can make do with under 10 seconds, I'm pretty sure you could do it as well.

Edited December 29, 2015 by styxonfire

[styxonfire]

it's on par on having nearly double damage, and 4/s energy regeneration or instant revives. so no.

Except yes it is overpowered because NO ONE CAN SEE YOU WHEN ITS PROC'D. AND YOU CAN DO IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN!

[LurkenLurker]

There is just no way you go wrong with Invisibility or Ash Smoke bomb. I truly believe that noone can mess it up and get killed while doing it. If they are, they prob. know what they did wrong and should strive not to do that mistake anymore.

 

I only gave the Ash and Loki examples because thats what we were talking about but on the case of ther frames my point stands. Rest of the frames doesnt need Shadow step to stay alive and Arcane Trickery being rather useless is just a point of view. I always run with my Trickery cloak if im planning o using it.

 

 

Undertow helps you recover from tricky situations. Tidal surge makes you immune to damage and to be honest itsa great way to get away from such situations. True Hydroid himself doesnt have any interesting or unique way ot staying alive but he still does the job.

 

On the case of non stealth frames though, what im saying is you dont need Shadow step to be useful or Overpowered. Frames already have ways to deal with situations and this just gives you another way ot dealing with things. To be honest i never even thought about using Shadow step. It just doesnt look interesting in my eyes.

 

 

But anything less than 10 seconds just doesnt cut it. Recovering from slash animations and doing something roughly takes the half of the duration and those frames that can utilize it much better than the others prob, doesnt need it to do their thing.

 

 

Ash has Offensive abilities at core. Shurikens are great with augment. Teleport opens them up for finishers which saves you from a lot of headache and Bladestorm is just makes you "Nope" a huge chunk of enemies while having the ability of triggering Arcane Trickery which is 10 times better than Shadow step or Smokebomb. 

 

Also with my Ash build i have reliable amount of stealth without wasting huge chunk of energy. Fleeting expertise is not the sole way of modding him.

 

Smokebomb staggers the mobs around you and is a perfect tool for saving people or getting away from tricky situations. You are not wrong about he having invisibility but he was never a stealth frame and should not be considered one ever. 

 

If nothing smokebomb should be turned into a proper Smoke bomb which makes an area of people invisible in a field of smoke.

Ash was inroduce as a offensive stealth alternative to loki i Don't care personaly about your ash build. On that note  just whack a mob  crit run to downed ally whack another mob crit re stealth bladestorm a few more time or spam blade waves both  will all do the same without haveing to worry about a cast animation like the long one radial blind and smoke screen both have or wasting a mod slot on natural talent.

[LurkenLurker]

On top of that your getting wicked high stealth multiplyers this makes them well excalibur spicifically even more of a beast but i guess excalibur still needs a somwhat decent duration so the energy drain dose screw him but still

[LisRestall]

It's not even complicated.

 

You narrow down the frames first from most overpowered to weakest. Don't count in the frames who can survive T4S 1 hour w/o any help from Focus like Excalibur, Valkyr, Ash, Loki, etc.

 

Oberon can create a meatshield around him by using his 4th. Quite same to how Nyx survives long T4S solo runs cause of Chaos.

Volt still has his shields which gives huge damage boost for his guns at the same time protects himself.

Zephyr is near-bulletproof.

Mag still has Shield Polarize that infinitely scales and Shield Transference to block of sudden bursts of damage.

Nekros is extremely tanky with Shield of Shadows.

Limbo can still nitpick enemies 1 by 1 for safety.

(I get that these frames cannot last till 1 hour T4S themselves but nevertheless, they still has something to offer.)

 

The weakest obviously is Hydroid. His CC makes it harder to hit the enemies. His puddle is a death sentence. His mobility skill more or less worse than Bulletjump.

 

Since Hydroid is the weakest link. It's easier to compare Focus using him, a frame that technically has nothing to offer.

 

We now slap in each focus and test out if he can last 1 hour T4S solo. Obviously, Zenurik, Urainu and Madurai won't save him at all around 40 mins+ he would just end using all his revives and fail miserably. Infinite energy for him is useless, having 90% more physical damage on weapons would barely help, -15% armor can only be applied once and does not stack and does not completely strip off enemy armor since the armor regenerates after the duration or when re-applied.

 

Only Naramon can make a 1hr T4S solo possible using Hydroid. Nothing else. Immense survivability due to being invisble, 400% more damage on melees due to stealth multiplier.

 

I get that it's entirely up to DE how powerful Focus should be but it's a fact that even lowering the duration of Naramon slightly would not hurt the Focus. It will remain a very powerful Focus for melee-lovers even with just 4-6s invisibility. 10s is too much.

Edited December 29, 2015 by LisRestall