Naramon's Shadow Step Is Overpowered

[DarcnyssWolfe]

Also like to point out its 3.5-4.5 minutes before you can use Shadow step, pending mastery. Your getting +90sec from having both the Melee Affinity passive AND Shadow Step. Mastery can at best reduce the cool down by 60 seconds.

Side note: Meanwhile in Zen-Ville you can get 4 energy per second regen with out ever needing more than the base way and if more way is gotten, can drop its cooldown below 3mins. #CC/Loki-masterraceFTW

[bl4ckhunter]

Well, if you put Shadow Step in frames like the ones you've mentioned, it just further enhances what they are already capable of. With Ash and Loki, they have more than one ability to be invisible, Valkyr and Wukong would essentially be untouchable (Valkyr has invulnerability and Shadow Step counters her problems with Nullifiers, Wukong can arguably never have to turn Defy on), and if we add in Excalibur... it'd make high level endurance missions more trivial than it already is. That 10 seconds worth of invisibility that can be cast again by just hitting a critical attack and do it over and over again... thats overpowered. I mean, you don't have to kill anyone just to be invisible.

Its essentially power creep thats happening. 

nope, there's nothing more stupid than putting shadow step on loki/ash since you cannot be more invisible and you lose out on the aforementioned bonuses from other focus threes, also on wukong is detrimental on most builds since you already don't have to turn defy off 99% of the time with a rage build, wich gets killed by shadow step.

 

if you say that focus in general is powercreep that's kind of a given thing since they give benefits to all the frames without downsides, but i don't see why you think that shadow step is more power chreepy than the rest and needs to be nerfed. as it stands shadow step is nothing more than a bandaid for melee at high levels, meanwhile the other focus threes give massive benefits.

[styxonfire]

Oh wow. Someone complaining about Focus being powerful and actually goes and calls it OP. I seriously think Reddit is right about forums sometimes.

Focus was suppose to be powerful. It should be Overpowered as hell. Grind for Focus points is annoying and you dont really finish maxing one talent with a day like you can do with everything we have.

Focus must be OP. It should be worth our efforts and expectations. Its been waited for so long but the amount of trashy abilities almost killed it. We dont need Nerfs. We needs buffs and im saying this as a Madurai user who has nothing more than unnecessary IPS buffs with no visual or fun thing.

Game is no way hard in any aspect. A player with 2 braincells to rub together can do anything. Shadow step doesnt make anything easier.

That proves nothing. Any frame is capable of doing any high level stuff. You dont need Shadow step to make them work in high levels.

Meaning you are just another person who asks for nerfs for something that doesnt need nerfs. People are sick of Nerf mindset. Everyone is asking for nerfs while we have to ask for buffs and reworks. This is sickening at this point.

nope, there's nothing more stupid than putting shadow step on loki/ash since you cannot be more invisible and you lose out on the aforementioned bonuses from other focus threes, also on wukong is detrimental on most builds since you already don't have to turn defy off 99% of the time with a rage build, wich gets killed by shadow step.

if you say that focus in general is powercreep that's kind of a given thing since they give benefits to all the frames without downsides, but i don't see why you think that shadow step is more power chreepy than the rest and needs to be nerfed. as it stands shadow step is nothing more than a bandaid for melee at high levels, meanwhile the other focus threes give massive benefits.

I'm just gonna leave you with what this person said:

People don't see that the core problem is Naramon itself "ALONE" can turn any frame into a Loki simply because the duration is too long.

Some say "Hey, you finally were able to do 1 hour T4S or cheese an end-game content with X frame yet you're ranting?" But doesn't consider the fact that Warframes has their own specialties, they need to be diverse. Wasn't that the purpose of having different Warframes? Naramon simply sh*ts on that game aspect and turns every frame into a Loki.

Now if you're gonna say, "Hey, at least Hydroid is now viable!" FFS Hydroid needs a rework not be forced to use Naramon to be viable aka BANDAID. How can people be so dense?

And yeah... @bl4ckhunter With Ash, Naramon overrides his need of his own Smoke Screen. Loki has a follow-up invisibility with Shadow Step for guys who don't even bother checking if their invisibility is about to wear off. With Wukong, you don't need Defy anymore. You just need to keep Primal Fury up, or use absolutely nothing in his pool of abilities and just hit whatever moves.

With Naramon's Shadowstep, this ABSOLUTELY FIXES THE PROBLEM OF NEARLY EVERY FRAME THAT HAS ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE IN HELL TO DO END-GAME CONTENT (Raids-aside). The fact that the chance of mobs shooting you is cut down by 10 folds is the best form of survivability. That also kills diversity since everyone can essentially be Loki. Atleast with Arcane Trickery, its still chance-based and works with only a handful of frames, if not scenarios. With Shadow Step... all you have to do after casting Mind Spike ONCE is to crit... THATS IT.

Edited December 29, 2015 by styxonfire

[DarcnyssWolfe]

as it stands shadow step is nothing more than a bandaid for melee at high levels, meanwhile the other focus threes give massive benefits.

This guy gets it

[PickleMonster21]

At first, I just thought you were looking to nerf a really nice Passive. But then I looked into it.
I can agree with this, considering:
Ash has an ability which makes him invisible for (base) 2/4/6/8 seconds.
Loki has an ability which makes him invisible for (base) 5/7/9/12 seconds.
Shadow Step is a passive that lasts for (I'll take your word for it) 5/6/8/10 seconds.

So maxing Shadow Step and using a Nyx, you've just rendered a (base) Loki useless, and your invisibility now lasts longer than Ash's (at base Duration).

But instead of making it 1/2/3/4 or 2/3/4/5, why not keep the pattern of 1/2/4/6 (what I'd choose) or 2/3/5/7.

I currently have mine at 6 seconds, and I find this is an adequate duration for this ability.

Edited December 29, 2015 by PickleMonster21

[styxonfire]

At first, I just thought you were looking to nerf a really nice Passive. But then I looked into it.

I can agree with this, considering:

Ash has an ability which makes him invisible for (base) 2/4/6/8 seconds.

Loki has an ability which makes him invisible for (base) 5/7/9/12 seconds.

Shadow Step is a passive that lasts for (I'll take your word for it) 5/6/8/10 seconds.

So maxing Shadow Step and using a Nyx, you've just rendered a (base) Loki useless, and your invisibility now lasts longer than Ash's (at base Duration).

But instead of making it 1/2/3/4 or 2/3/4/5, why not keep the pattern of 1/2/4/6 (what I'd choose) or 2/3/5/7.

I currently have mine at 6 seconds, and I find this is an adequate duration for this ability.

Well, I personally thought that at 8 seconds it was already scary long. Plus at some point, you can stay essentially invisible and invincible since there are times that when the duration does end, my crits coincidentally kick in... thus giving the illusion of it being refreshed. 8 seconds of window time to crit is already too long IMHO that you have enough time. 

But hey, aslong as it doesn't cap out at 8 seconds max, I'm fine with it.

[bl4ckhunter]

At first, I just thought you were looking to nerf a really nice Passive. But then I looked into it.

I can agree with this, considering:

Ash has an ability which makes him invisible for (base) 2/4/6/8 seconds.

Loki has an ability which makes him invisible for (base) 5/7/9/12 seconds.

Shadow Step is a passive that lasts for (I'll take your word for it) 5/6/8/10 seconds.

So maxing Shadow Step and using a Nyx, you've just rendered a (base) Loki useless.

loki doesn't have only one button you know that right? can your nyx disarm enemies? can it teleport? can it cast decoys? no it cannot. by the same reasoning loki makes ash useless, abilities are bound to overlap each other on different frames, the whole point of focus is that you can get some defenses on frames that don't have them and some more offense on frames that are lacking in it, as it is now without shadow step melee is exclusive to an handful of frames  with powerful defense buffs, meanwhile zenurik is used to allow spammy-er builds to be viable and madurai is for those frames that only need more damage (valkyr, wukong etch.)

[Endrance]

Please, as a main Ash that actually runs Naramon, you clearly have no clue on dafuq you're talking.

 

The fact that you need a crit weapon is already bad for you. While Ash and Loki can simple pop invisi, bring a big melee, and whack off everyone.

 

 

While with Shadow step you NEED to bring a crit weapon.

 

 

True that atm, the strongest melee have crit builds, but that is now.

 

 

While you (non ash, non loki) require a Shadow Step to do what they do, they can simple go to Unairu and the "Mighty Blows" passive, to decrease enemy armor by 15%. They are already stronger than you are with your Shadow Step.

 

Or even going to Madurai and get "Blazing Fury/Searing Wrath/burning Rage" for extra 30% Slash/Puncture/Impact, and once again, they put you in a corner.

 

 

Shadow Step is like someone mentioned before, it's a bandaid for Melee, for frames that don't have the possibilitie to go melee in high level.

 

Ash and Loki can go melee anytime. And with any other passive focus tree with the exception of Varazin, they're stronger than you.

 

 

So yeah, Naramon tree isn't that overpowered, it just gives you the abilitie to try to play normal loki/ash without being a loki/ash. But the fact that you need it to be like them, puts you in a disadvantage.

 

Because you need it to became stronger, while they on the other hand, can actually get something that makes them stronger.

 

 

This is my opinion obviosuly. For those who wonder, why the heck i run Naramon on Ash, is simply because my Smokescreen last for 1 sec. So i need it :D But now that i've finished the tree, i will work out other build (looking at you Zenurik) and see how it goes.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Endrance

[Shin]

I'm just gonna leave you with what this person said:

Im not sure if you replied to me or showed me that guys post but if that was your response then im saying invisibility for melee hits doesnt remove any frames specialty.

 

Duration is long? You need to crit to activate it. I can press 2 and be invisible for like 34 seconds. Hows that sounds? I can do whatever the hell i want in that time duration and i dont need to anything else. This is nitpicking at best. 

 

I dont mind reworks so long as they are better then currently what they are but im strictly against any nerfs because they are just there to make things less effective and in this case not worth the effort to even farm the Focus points. Anything below 10 seconds would turn this into "Nah i'll farm for something else" kind of talent. 

[styxonfire]

loki doesn't have only one button you know that right? can your nyx disarm enemies? can it teleport? can it cast decoys? no it cannot. by the same reasoning loki makes ash useless, abilities are bound to overlap each other on different frames, the whole point of focus is that you can get some defenses on frames that don't have them and some more offense on frames that are lacking in it, as it is now without shadow step melee is exclusive to an handful of frames  with powerful defense buffs, meanwhile zenurik is used to allow spammy-er builds to be viable and madurai is for those frames that only need more damage (valkyr, wukong etch.)

You don't get the point. What Shadow Step does is essentially strap 10 seconds of invisibility that costs NO ENERGY TO CAST on other frames that can potentially synergize with it arguably better than Loki himself. Can loki make mobs fight each other without an augment mod? Can Loki mind-jack a bombard, heavy gunner, or whoever that flamethrower guy is? Can Loki turn into a ball of destruction by using the enemy's attacks against them? Not, IT CANNOT.

Lemme bring Nova in. Can Loki cast an ability that gives the mobs a debuff and blows them off? NOPE! Strap invisibility to Nova and she herself can outdo Loki.

Invisibility as a defensive skill is ridiculously powerful because there's no legit counter against it from the AI's POV. All they can do is assume you were there when they were last shooting you and you're still there.

[LisRestall]

-snip-

You don't know what you're talking about. Even if you combine all other focus other than Naramon and slap it into a Hydroid, you would definitely not last until 1 hour on T4S. Only Naramon can do that. Also, you are forgetting that melees gets a stealth damage multiplier from being invisible.

 

Standard melee attacks are affected by a 400% stealth damage multiplier when attacking unalerted enemies, or when cloaked by an ability (Smoke Screen and Invisibility). This damage multiplier changes the color of regular damage pop-ups from white to yellow (similar to critical hits).

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Stealth

[Endrance]

 

You don't know what you're talking about. Even if you combine all other focus other than Naramon and slap it into a Hydroid, you would definitely not last until 1 hour on T4S. Only Naramon can do that. Also, you are forgetting that melees gets a stealth damage multiplier from being invisible.

 

 

did i say it would?

 

I know how it works.

 

But listen (or read)

 

What is stronger:

 

Your Hidro with War with naramon shadow step + 400% stealth multi

 

or my Ash/Loki with war with Madurai 30% extra damage + 400% stealth multi

 

 

Not that hard right? One already cleary sayt has 30% more. You don't need to be a scientist.

 

 

EDIT: But hey, feel free to run amok with your Hidro on TS4 doing what i do, but you just do it worse. Fine for me. But if you don't want to do it, then don't nerf the onyl thing that allows you to.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Endrance

[[DE]Grzegorz]

You don't get the point. What Shadow Step does is essentially strap 10 seconds of invisibility that costs NO ENERGY TO CAST on other frames that can potentially synergize with it arguably better than Loki himself.

Remind me how much time do you need to spend to actually unlock Shadow Step and make it competitive with Loki's invis?

[Endrance]

Remind me how much time do you need to spend to actually unlock Shadow Step and make it competitive with Loki's invis?

Competitive? Never then. 10 secs are less that loki normal lol

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Well, if you put Shadow Step in frames like the ones you've mentioned, it just further enhances what they are already capable of. With Ash and Loki, they have more than one ability to be invisible, Valkyr and Wukong would essentially be untouchable (Valkyr has invulnerability and Shadow Step counters her problems with Nullifiers, Wukong can arguably never have to turn Defy on), and if we add in Excalibur... it'd make high level endurance missions more trivial than it already is. That 10 seconds worth of invisibility that can be cast again by just hitting a critical attack and do it over and over again... thats overpowered. I mean, you don't have to kill anyone just to be invisible.

Its essentially power creep thats happening.

Excalibur like Ash/Loki already had access to 400% melee Stealth multiplier

Wave Blade benefits from multiplier without forcing Finisher

Radial Blind worked fine for this.

Excalibur, Ash, and Loki get no additional Damage boost from Naramon Shadow Step that they did not already have an ability to do.

Hysteria and Primal Fury have better benefits as they can retoggle Invincibility while invisible for AoE 1-shot protection if they entered a Nullifier Shield prior to AoE dangers. Also the damage boost effectively puts Valkyr at top melee and allows WuKong to match Excalibur damage (WuKong does not need Life-Strike with Defy Toggle allowing him to use Defy as a psuedo-heal)

Duration of this passive at Max is half the Duration of Arcane Trickery which has 20sec Invisibility but I did not see players saying Trickery was overpowered.

With new Charge attacks on Sparring Finisher prompts are literally a hold-melee away: allowing any Warframe with Arcane Trickery to remain invisible for 20secs

-Twice as long as Shadow Step

-It can be refreshed while still active to fully maintain Invisibility

-Does not require Crit mods or Crit dependent melee Weapon

Doesn't even require Sparring melee Weapon as any melee Weapon can Parry

-Blocking adds Damage Reduction to Shields

If powercreep is allowing all Warframes to be melee balanced (in terms of 400% melee multiplier or no 400% melee multiplier)

With Arcane Trickery (Only have to perform finisher, it does not have to kill) or Shadow Step : all Warframes gain access to 400% melee multiplier

For it to be traditional power creep it would need to surpass the existing top melee damage

Only way that happens is with Hysteria getting Invisibility Multiplier

(Was possible before when paired with Prism Blind Mirage) allowed Hysteria to have multiplier without forced Finishers

It seems to be multiplicative separately from crit chance mods.

Base chance x crit mods x Deadly Intent

15% (DNikana) x 1.6 (True Steel) = 24% crit chance

15% x 1.6 x 1.3 (Deadly Intent) = 31.2% crit chance

It's not very good, and making it an additive chance (like Arcane Avenger) would make it worthwhile.

Is Deadly Intent Multiplicative after all Crit chance buffs or only Crit chance mods?

Using your example?

Base chance x crit mods x Deadly Intent

15% (DNikana) x 1.6 (True Steel) + 30% (Aracane Avenger) = 54% crit chance

(15% x 1.6 x 1.3 (Deadly Intent)) + 30 (Aracane Avenger) = 61.2% crit chance

Or

(15% x 1.6 +30 (Aracane Avenger)) x 1.3 (Deadly Intent) = 70.2% Crit chance

Small difference but on Tekko that is difference from Red Crit potential

(30% x 1.6 x 1.3) + 30 = 92.4 % Crit chance

Vs

(30% x 1.6 + 30) x 1.3 = 101.4% Crit chance

I strongly agree additive would have been preferred!

OP, I agree 5-7secs at Max would be fine(closer to not at overpowered) compared to the current 10secs

-10secs is almost enough time to perform two Pick-up

-7secs is enough time to perform a Terminal Hack

Edited December 29, 2015 by (PS4)MrNishi

[Qynchou]

i already have maxed shadow step and deadly intent and the cooldown reduction talent.  Took me pretty much everyday of the focus cap since release to get it there. I think the time it takes is justified. Not to mention i have to wait 4 minutes before the abilities even begin to take effect. Making it useless unless I'm in a endless mission. But it is very strong, but do you know what was stronger? When it was triggered by any crit xD ah good times.

Yes, trivializing invisibility frames is totally worth it.

 

That passive is a joke.

[PickleMonster21]

loki doesn't have only one button you know that right? can your nyx disarm enemies? can it teleport? can it cast decoys? no it cannot. 

Well... I mean, really...

Nyx can't disarm, but she has an inbuilt Loki Augment that every Loki Disarm user (that I've seen) uses

She can't teleport, but who even uses Switch Teleport, or even just Teleport on Ash?

Nyx can cast Decoys that even move and fight along side you.

Nyx basically now does what Loki can, but in a more offensive way.

 

by the same reasoning loki makes ash useless,

Not true xD Can Loki do ANYTHING offensive? No. Loki's more Support, whereas Ash is more Offense.

 

 

[Sakatchi]

So... how are the other active Focus abilities useless? 

 

You see... ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS CAST MIND SPIKE ONCE (LIKE, JUST ONCE! YOU DON'T HAVE TO CAST IT AGAIN  AFTER COOLING DOWN) AND IT GIVES YOU SHADOW STEP'S PASSIVE WHICH YOU CAN USE OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN! ITS ONLY REQUIREMENT TO PROC IS TO CRIT FROM YOUR MELEE WEAPON!

Agian, its useful, cant be boosted by any means, and is functionally similar to that arcane that already does the same thing.

 

And i didn't call them useless, I said they were worth investing all of your focus into.  I don't think you realize just how costly some of the higher leveled powers are. Nerfs are not needed. If anything they should be stronger.

[styxonfire]

For this one, my replies are with an asterisk and underlined

Please, as a main Ash that actually runs Naramon, you clearly have no clue on dafuq you're talking.

 

The fact that you need a crit weapon is already bad for you. While Ash and Loki can simple pop invisi, bring a big melee, and whack off everyone.

*There's the Tipedo, vanila Dual Cleavers, Dual Ichors, Scindo Prime, War, Tekko, Ankyros Prime, and pretty much alot of crit weapons anyways. The fact that anyone can have Loki and Ash's base invisibility is whats overpowered.

 

 

While with Shadow step you NEED to bring a crit weapon.

*There are ALOT of crit melee weapons

 

True that atm, the strongest melee have crit builds, but that is now.

*Like I said, there are ALOT of crit melee weapons

 

While you (non ash, non loki) require a Shadow Step to do what they do, they can simple go to Unairu and the "Mighty Blows" passive, to decrease enemy armor by 15%. They are already stronger than you are with your Shadow Step.

*Right... because armor decrease by 15% is better than NOT BEING SEEN AT ALL, THUS THE ENEMY MOBS STOP SHOOTING... right.

 

Or even going to Madurai and get "Blazing Fury/Searing Wrath/burning Rage" for extra 30% Slash/Puncture/Impact, and once again, they put you in a corner.

 

*Refer to what I replied on your argument with Unairu

 

Shadow Step is like someone mentioned before, it's a bandaid for Melee, for frames that don't have the possibilitie to go melee in high level.

*Its beyond a bandaid. Its essentially an enhancement thats overdoing its job.

 

Ash and Loki can go melee anytime. And with any other passive focus tree with the exception of Varazin, they're stronger than you.

 

*The fact that Hydroid can be Loki is already strong enough since when you do become invisible, the enemy AI CAN'T SEE YOU!

 

So yeah, Naramon tree isn't that overpowered, it just gives you the abilitie to try to play normal loki/ash without being a loki/ash. But the fact that you need it to be like them, puts you in a disadvantage.

*The fact that you can be Loki or Ash without being Loki or Ash is already overpowered. Try going Shadow Step Ember if you want.

 

Because you need it to became stronger, while they on the other hand, can actually get something that makes them stronger.

*Yes, but not to the point that it can make other frames trivial. It makes Loki and Ash more like a gimmick.

 

This is my opinion obviosuly. For those who wonder, why the heck i run Naramon on Ash, is simply because my Smokescreen last for 1 sec. So i need it :D But now that i've finished the tree, i will work out other build (looking at you Zenurik) and see how it goes.

*...

 

 

Im not sure if you replied to me or showed me that guys post but if that was your response then im saying invisibility for melee hits doesnt remove any frames specialty.

 

Duration is long? You need to crit to activate it. I can press 2 and be invisible for like 34 seconds. Hows that sounds? I can do whatever the hell i want in that time duration and i dont need to anything else. This is nitpicking at best. 

 

I dont mind reworks so long as they are better then currently what they are but im strictly against any nerfs because they are just there to make things less effective and in this case not worth the effort to even farm the Focus points. Anything below 10 seconds would turn this into "Nah i'll farm for something else" kind of talent. 

If you watched my Hydroid run, you can clearly see that all I needed to do is whack people till I see yellow. I don't mind uploading un-sped up version of it if you don't mind waiting.

Ash and Loki have a cast time, while Shadow Step DOES NOT. And have you actually watched my videos regarding this? I'm just saying that 10 seconds of invisibility that can be strapped to any other frame is already overpowered. My videos have involved a freshly unlocked Shadow Step and two others that are just one level/rank away from maxed. 

So, are you saying you want the game to be easier than it already is by letting everyone have built-in invisibility? 

[bl4ckhunter]

Yes, trivializing invisibility frames is totally worth it.

 

That passive is a joke.

this is the mentality problem. THERE'S NO EFFIN INVISIBILITY FRAME! all frames have 4 abilities, just couse other frames can turn invisible throught external means doesn't mean that frames with invisibility got weaker, loki is still stronger becouse he can use other focuses.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Yes, trivializing invisibility frames is totally worth it.

 

That passive is a joke.

Trivializing Invisibility frames only in endless missions

No - pretty sure Hushed Loki with Tonkor is better than Hydroid/Limbo Shadow Step

[Hypernaut1]

You need to melee to crit. Thats the trade off. It encourages you to use melee. Thats the point of the school.


How is it OP because you can do a survival? Players have been doing that for ages.

It doesn't replace Loki because the duration is not as long or reliable. Its only useful for melee in a crowd, you're not going to sneak around levels with it.

Edited December 31, 2015 by (PS4)IIIDevoidIII
Language

[styxonfire]

Agian, its useful, cant be boosted by any means, and is functionally similar to that arcane that already does the same thing.

 

And i didn't call them useless, I said they were worth investing all of your focus into.  I don't think you realize just how costly some of the higher leveled powers are. Nerfs are not needed. If anything they should be stronger.

Who needs to boost them when you can just crit with your melee weapon? There's no cast time after procing a crit. Once you see yellow, no enemy AI can see you. And guess what? No energy required to use it other then the energy used to move our fingers.

 

 

Trivializing Invisibility frames only in endless missions

No - pretty sure Hushed Loki with Tonkor is better than Hydroid/Limbo Shadow Step

The part that it can trivialize endless missions is already pretty overpowered.

Sure, Hushed Loki with Tonkor is better than Hydroid or Limbo with Shadow Step. But the part that if you do add Shadow Step in frames like Nova, Nyx, maybe even Ember, hell... even Mag, thats pretty damning tbh.

[LisRestall]

-snip-

Hydroid was just used an example to show how overpowered Naramon is. A frame not having invisbility, a useless invulnerability, extremely lame gap closer/mobility skill and a tickling ultimate YET was able to last till 1 hour T4S with just 1 death using Naramon. It simply shows how overpowered Naramon is due to the free long invisbility.

 

We specifically use Hydroid for comparison because he basically has nothing to offer. It's a no brainer that Ash with Madurai is stronger, you just simply lack the comprehension to get the point of the thread.

 

So again, to get a better comparison of how good focuses are is to use it on a frame like Hydroid. Ash by itself w/o any focus can last 1 hour on T4S so he is completely irrelevant.

[Endrance]

Oh boy, you didn t get it at all. While you need a crit weapon, i dont. While you need shadow Step, i dont.

So yeah, get your naramon, do What i do, Just worse, be happy.

You need a focus to do What i do. That was my point. You use it for invisibility, i use another to boost my damage.

You use naramon over unairu, makes sense, since you cant go invisi without it, But i can, só unairu is way better

If i explained myself bad, i apologize, But it seems it was way over your head.