The Single Shot Stack {Pvpizzle}

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

I been playing around with slower weapons lately. And I have been noticing lately especially the uprising of the latron series. The latron series has always been known to be one of the meltier weapons in the game. Which is great, as many single fire and burst fire weapons dont get much spot light.

 

Although there are some other guns out there in the selective fire category that need buffs. There is a problem that I have been noticing with the single shot weapons especially, and that is the latron hierachy.

 

Now I know what you are thinking, and i can guarantee you, you are wrong. No i do not want the latron series to get a nerf, that will not solve anything. Rather the reason why the latron is such a desirable weapon is because it has extremely managable recoil, and it is a rapid fire macro dude's best friends next to the burston prime.

 

I always had a problem with macros in this game for pvp in particular. And it would be nice to ban macros in pvp all together. But the issue here is that DE has given the go ahead to use them. I think that for a competitive setting, espceially in this game with all these factors macros should not be allowed.

 

But that wont happen so I propose the following solution: 

 

A) Increase the dealy between shots, put a more strict fire rate cap on the latron so that people dont slap their mouses or use macros to the point of explitation.

 

B) Give the latron series some more, recoil or anything. This way people can actually manage their shots, ya know short controlled shots/bursts?

 

Also I was playing around with the grinlok, today. Why does it 3 shot ash prime? Really once again we gotta close the gap between primed and normal warframes soon. Because a slow weapon like a grinlok can not compete whatsoever versus a latron.

[Pythadragon]

If the issue is with the damage of Latron series in particular: that can be reduced or the double tap mod tweaked.

 

Devteam has made it pretty clear that they want to maintain the same handling for weapons in pvp as they do in pve (issues with weapons with different handling across both games when they combine with the new dark sectors).

 

Let's try to work within the system and not ask Joebuck unnecessarily request these permissions when there may be an alternative solution that's in line with what the pvp devteam has stated.

 

Remember- what you're talking about as far as macros is not only is relevant to Latron series, but all high ROF semi automatic weapons. Especially those pesky dual semi pistols.

 

Option C) Allow us to fire semis like an automatic weapon (max firerate) using the 'secondary fire' button or have the secondary fire button act as a toggle between semi and automatic fire settings.

 

Weapons are balanced according to their max potential. Things have to be this way in order to balance something sensibly. Equalize the playing field for everyone.

 

High ROF semi auto weapons were always a mistake from a health and accessibility perspective. Many game developers know this and avoid this. DE does not. Why should a player who can click faster than another player be able to perform better in game? Is clicking fast considered a skill (or healthy for your joints long term?)? Or mindless buttonmash?

 

--

 

Bonus: This change would make PVE players with their 22 round per second akboltos happy. Therefore would be more likely to get done.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Pythadragon

[JonBenj]

I've been playing a bit with Latron Wraith with a max ranked Hydraulic gauge. Minus 1 round - hardly a handicap for significantly reduced recoil.

Reminds me of the Latrom Wraith spammer scourge in 1.0; each round with a 9 out of 10 chance to 1 shot you, with clips fired your way.

[BoyTitan]

Remove the macros. Just simply make it stated no one wants macros in pvp they don't belong there is no discussion there.

[stoybot]

It's just bad design carried over from PvE and it should be fixed in both modes. The Latron is not even the worst offender (4.17 fire rate is not that high). You have weapons like the AkVasto with a fire rate of 10... Don't know about you, but I can't get more than 7 left mouse button clicks per second even without aiming. With a macro, the AkVasto used to have a ridiculous DPS and its spread was quite manageable.

 

Boost damage, lower fire rate and you eliminate the macro appeal while maintaining the DPS values. The only people that will notice a difference are the macro users. Oh, and please do that for both modes! I like my AkMagnus in PvE but that 8.33 RoF is just a reminder that I can never squeeze out the full potential of the weapon without resorting to scripting.

[Shin]

I always found people using Latron dangerous. It feels good being able to run away from then and kill them while doing whatever im doing. It feels satisfying. Sure it hits hard but i dont think its that much of a problem. Yeah i died to people using it  but it doesnt bug me at all. Just reminds me to be constantly on the move and not be predictable. 

 

On the case of Macros though. I want PvP team to make a statement that says " Macro's are ban-able " so that people would never use it. To be honest noone should use Macros.

 

The reason i stopped playing on RunUO servers because of EasyUO or macro programs like that complately ruined PvP. Lets not use or encourage people to use any kind of macro or script really and while we're on it maybe soft-ban people resorting to such cowardy.

[rockscl]

why not, instead of macros, we get a pvp mod series that converts semi automatics into automatics with reduced rate of fire, then macros can be banned from pvp

 

because i dont see, in hell or heaven, any reason to justify giving max fire rate to macro users while legit clickers get the innate recoil and difficulty that comes with pressing the trigger while also tracking the target

 

i repeat so no one misses the point: clicking implies difficulty for tracking while automatic mechanics does not

Edited December 30, 2015 by rockscl

[Guest Pun-chee]

Why should a player who can click faster than another player be able to perform better in game? Is clicking fast considered a skill (or healthy for your joints long term?)? Or mindless buttonmash?

 

I don't agree. It's not mindless, your brain still has to send the command to "click as fast as possible". If you practice this long enough it becomes "intuitive", but not less "skillful". There's also a little trick with fast clicking: Windup. If you learn that you can mouse-click easily 10x per second.

 

 

But yes to Macro's being ban-able!

Edited December 30, 2015 by Pun-chee

[Marrt]

Lets fix this problem once and for all:

 

Fix1: Auto option like Pytha said, but i won't tie toggle to secondary fire, take semis with an alternate fire mode like simulor for example, make it "." like every other game

 

Fix2: Simple Trigger-Stack for semis and Burst weapons

 

How is it implemented?

If i press the Trigger twice but the second trigger is pressed before the gun is ready to fire, the next trigger is queued and the gun will fire automatically when ready. Queue size is configurable from 0 to 5 or whatever. Introduce a maximum queue time of 0.5s too, that means for slow firing weapons like snipers the queue will be cleared if the queue is < 0 for more than 0.5s. This is because you maybe press the trigger twice in the heat of the moment but a second shot is obviously not intended.

 

It is simple programming.

 

 

Alos: achieving a semifirerate above 7 without macros is not a problem at all, my average is 9.5 on this page:

http://cookie.riimu.net/speed/

but aiming suffers of course

[Pythadragon]

Everyone realizes that players have been binding 'shoot weapon' to free spinning mousewheel to simulate full auto for forever, right? Is that cheating? Almost all Logitech gaming mice + their high end business mice have a toggle-able free spinning mousewheel (continues to spin due to lack of rachet stop after intial flick at very high repeat rate).

 

Latron wraith is a bigger issue than prime/normal at 5.4 ROF.

 

RE: Option C) Allow us to fire semis like an automatic weapon (max firerate) using the 'secondary fire' button or have the secondary fire button act as a toggle between semi and automatic fire settings.

 

The secondary fire suggestion is in consideration for controller users. Controllers have a limited number of buttons. It's easy to say "add a keybind" to a mouse and keyboard user. But not possible for majority of people on controller. I am assuming that the default control scheme on a controller already includes a bind for secondary fire.

 

This is not a perfect solution due to semi autos with secondary fire (rare) such as penta and simulor. But those weapons already have slow rate of fires in the first place thus making full auto option much less important to reach max potential, anyways. Synoid simulor max ROF = 2.67.

 

EDIT: Option D) Allow us to select trigger type in the arsenal screen from semi to auto. Obviously leave burstfire and charge fire weapons as is. Changing trigger type during gameplay is not possible with this option except for swapping loadouts, but this option does not require another keybind/secondary fire button.

 

Other developers understand why high ROF semi auto weapons are a terrible idea. Is there any popular game out there that has semi auto weapons with a potential firerate of 10 rounds per second? 20? How about 30? 10 rps is possible in pvp right now. 30+ is possible in pve...

 

Is it even possible to reach such high click rates on a controller trigger?

Edited December 30, 2015 by Pythadragon

[Pythadragon]

I don't agree. It's not mindless, your brain still has to send the command to "click as fast as possible". If you practice this long enough it becomes "intuitive", but not less "skillful". There's also a little trick with fast clicking: Windup. If you learn that you can mouse-click easily 10x per second.

 

Windup...?

Edited December 30, 2015 by Pythadragon

[rockscl]

Everyone realizes that players have been binding 'shoot weapon' to free spinning mousewheel to simulate full auto for forever, right?

 

im aware that there is more than 1 way to emulate auto fire, and/or to bypass whatever macro control there is, be it implicit or simply moralistic, honestly i dont care if people uses those

 

my point is about respecting what the game content is, if there is going to be automatic mechanics for semiautos it has to be built in game and balanced accordingly, by example max ROF magnus, vasto and lato would be unbalanced if there wasnt the hand shaking factor, getting the best ROF with your clicks means your aim loses precision, that is one of the few skills that is actually transferred analogically in this game and should be considered as a balance factor

 

that is why i say that de could give mods to turn semiautos into autos but with reduced ROF

Edited December 30, 2015 by rockscl

[Marrt]

im aware that there is more than 1 way to emulate auto fire, and/or to bypass whatever macro control there is, be it implicit or simply moralistic, honestly i dont care if people uses those

 

my point is about respecting what the game content is, if there is going to be automatic mechanics for semiautos it has to be built in game and balanced accordingly, by example max ROF magnus, vasto and lato would be unbalanced if there wasnt the hand shaking factor, getting the best ROF with your clicks means your aim loses precision, that is one of the few skills that is actually transferred analogically in this game and should be considered as a balance factor

 

that is why i say that de could give mods to turn semiautos into autos but with reduced ROF

 

Really guys, dual pistols suck currently and are really not a problem, whoever uses Akvasto with macro is a moron:

 

As of now, Akvasto is not viable, it has the exact half damage and double the fire rate of Vasto.

But it has less accuracy, less than double of the ammo pool and you have to fire fast to max out its dps. Vasto is near to being strictly better than Akvastos now, the only time it may have a faster ttk is when the last shot of vasto does a lot of ovedamage (e.g. vasto took 3 shots, akvasto 5).

 

Before the update Akvastos had ~2/3ds of vastos damage and the fastest ttk of any secondary, i used vasto/akvasto a lot.

 

Old Stats:

Vasto 20 20 40 Vasto Prime 11.3 11.3 52.5 Akvasto 12.5 12.5 25

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/514033-pvp-hitstokill-table/page-3#entry6217263

Edited December 30, 2015 by Marrt

[Guest Pun-chee]

Windup...?

 

Do u own Acrid? - It's a perfect weapon to try it out: Basically you start to click in normal speed and then go faster. After some practice you click 2-3 times and the rest of clicks become insanely fast, sometimes more than double the rate.

 

Tried Marrt's link. First try: 11.4 clickrate

 

 

But that's all off-topic. Sorry.

[rockscl]

 

 

what is your point, i did not mention any dual pistol

[Marrt]

...by example max ROF magnus, vasto and lato would be unbalanced if there wasnt the hand shaking factor...

 

Lot of people can fire those dual pistols at max rate while aiming, That "hand shake factor" is something you think makes them balanced while they aren't even overpowered in the first place, even if they were full auto in the case of vastos.

 

Tried Marrt's link. First try: 11.4 clickrate

 

I don't care about your click rate, link was only to show that anyone can easily go beyond 7, wasn't intended as a boast

 

EDIT @Pythadragon: I was wrong, people with joint problems can have severe problems with clicking fast while otherwise being exceptional pvp-players

 

 

Back to Topic:

All these threads, i wonder if DE even reads the stuff in PVP-Feedback, i posted once in the current Hotfix thread that the Orokin-Moon map lacks ammo pickups and it was fixed in a day despite being brought up here as seperate thread at least once.

 

Currently this is what is in the air, i disagree with some, but this is what's hot as far as i was able to follow:

- Improve Semi-Burst Triggering (this Thread)

- Change Cephalon Capture Mechanics

- BladeStorm nerf

- Nehza is op

- stagger knockdown whatever

 

If someone wants to know my crazy opinion about the game in general:

- pve weapon builds are boring, there is really no alternative to the max damage builds except if you want faster reload - but guns that require those are not pve viable in the first place so costumization is low

- remove mandatory mods: Serration, Hornet Strike

- tie base damage to level of the gun

- replace pve mods by pro/contra mods like those for conclave, e.g damage for accuracy(heavy caliber)

- elemental mods should only convert damage, not add

- remove/rework stupid armor scaling from pve, endgameviability is basically: "Can it kil hevy gunna?!?"

- merge pvp and pve stats

 

but basically, completely remove everything and start from scratch with pvp in mind :D

Edited December 30, 2015 by Marrt

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

-smip-

They dont listen to alot. The only time they listened was u18 with the mobility changes other than that I can't forthe life of me remember a time when the pvp dev team took our suggestions into account.

 

The karak nerf

the disparity of prime and normal frames

the TTK

Homing powers

the suggestion of using cooldowns instead of pickups

 

loads of great constructive topics, backed up my many forumers and it never to implemented. And here we are, still with that TTK problem we had since u17.5

[Pythadragon]

Lot of people can fire those dual pistols at max rate while aiming, That "hand shake factor" is something you think makes them balanced while they aren't even overpowered in the first place, even if they were full auto in the case of vastos.

 

 

I don't care about your click rate, link was only to show that anyone can easily go beyond 7, wasn't intended as a boast

 

That's very ablest of you. I have joint problems. Others do as well, or other physical impairments.

 

I can't reach past 5 on my mouse, which is certainly not my limiting factor:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-G600-Gaming-Mouse-White/dp/B0086UK7I6

http://www.overclock.net/t/1411332/mouse-button-lag-comparison

 

Games need to be accessible to people. In this case, it is 100% impossible for me to reach max firerate on many semi auto guns without severe discomfort. Other game developers understand this and don't have high ROF semi auto guns. Warframe devs do not understand this.

 

 

Basically you start to click in normal speed and then go faster. After some practice you click 2-3 times and the rest of clicks become insanely fast, sometimes more than double the rate.

 

Trick doesn't work for me. I'm guessing this is some sort of 'warm up the muscles' exercise.

 

EDIT: No need to apologize. I did not take anything you said as offensive. I am simply advocating for accessibility issues.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Pythadragon

[Guest Pun-chee]

I don't care about your click rate, link was only to show that anyone can easily go beyond 7, wasn't intended as a boast

 

If you would understand my comment you would have noticed that I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to Pythadragon, explaining the (self made) term "windup". Using the site you linked, as an example of how to double the clickrate.

 

 

EDIT: Ok, sorry. Now I know that you are limited by health issues. I was only trying to help.

 

 

They dont listen to alot. The only time they listened was u18 with the mobility changes other than that I can't forthe life of me remember a time when the pvp dev team took our suggestions into account.

 

You don't mention a LOT of changes that were introduced because of our feedback. Slash Dash, Martial Magnetism, World on Fire, many many weapon rebalances (yeah I know it's still not where it should be).

 

The mobility/EHP changes, if you look at Joebuck's comment about it, sounds more like that he wanted to be able to do this since some time now. I bet there's a lot of stuff they want to do but aren't able (allowed?) to do yet.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Pun-chee

[Marrt]

 

If you would understand my comment you would have noticed that I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to Pythadragon, explaining the (self made) term "windup". Using the site you linked, as an example of how to double the clickrate.

 

Yeah, didn't read it completely i guess, maybe i just don't want to read you anymore since you always S#&amp;&#036;storm me after every time we met in pvp with some ludicrous accusations...

 

That's very ablest of you. I have joint problems. Others do as well, or other physical impairments.

 

Well, sorry about that, i am simple wrong then, i will edit my posts to reflect that.

[rockscl]

 

 

is that an argument to allow turning semiautos in autos without any loss in the process or what? the hand moves in order to have faster click rate, that changes the performance, thus is a balance factor

Edited December 30, 2015 by rockscl

[Marrt]

is that an argument to allow turning semiautos in autos without any loss in the process or what?

No, the sentence after the quoted would be, but i like the semi firing mode, it feels good. A mod like the one you suggested actually sounds good to me. But by using it you would always feel a bit outwitted by macro abusers that have no penalty.

 

I said max rate pistols are no problem since they all suck, get a shotgun, or use vaykor, but dual pistols NOW suck even when used for their purpose: Spamming bullets.

Like i mentioned, just compare Akvasto Stats with Vasto stats, even Fullauto-Akvastos would be bad at that accuracy

[rockscl]

No, the sentence after the quoted would be, but i like the semi firing mode, it feels good. A mod like the one you suggested actually sounds good to me. But by using it you would always feel a bit outwitted by macro abusers that have no penalty.

 

I said max rate pistols are no problem since they all suck, get a shotgun, or use vaykor, but dual pistols NOW suck even when used for their purpose: Spamming bullets.

Like i mentioned, just compare Akvasto Stats with Vasto stats, even Fullauto-Akvastos would be bad at that accuracy

 

ok i get it

[BoyTitan]

why not, instead of macros, we get a pvp mod series that converts semi automatics into automatics with reduced rate of fire, then macros can be banned from pvp

 

because i dont see, in hell or heaven, any reason to justify giving max fire rate to macro users while legit clickers get the innate recoil and difficulty that comes with pressing the trigger while also tracking the target

 

i repeat so no one misses the point: clicking implies difficulty for tracking while automatic mechanics does not

 

Exactly I don't use a macro. Why am I being short changed dealing with the after effects of recoil and timing when a macro can just be used.

[stoybot]

That's very ablest of you. I have joint problems. Others do as well, or other physical impairments.

 

I can't reach past 5 on my mouse, which is certainly not my limiting factor:

 

Trick doesn't work for me. I'm guessing this is some sort of 'warm up the muscles' exercise.

 

While input latency is a factor, the type of microswitch in your mouse likely has a lot more to do with your inability to go past 5. Certain click speed tricks simply don't work with some switches.

 

I still maintain that prevention is better than cure and the simplest way to fix this problem is to remove the incentive. Lower the fire rate to a reasonable level and normalize the damage to get the same DPS. It's simple and requires no programming. Since spread is tied to fire rate, accuracy might need some adjustments as well.