The Problem With Limbo

[CortezHextus]

14 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

I'd love to see that sounds bit. It's not a big change and you could still be seen but it would be somewhat interesting to see how it could be used.

I do not approve of this. Limbo's whole theme is battlefield control- carefully managing it all into the way he wants it to go. I don't want my enemies randomly falling over, staggering, or running away from me unexpectedly. Radiation- MAYBE. Blast/impact procs, no. Damage over time- maybe, but I feel it's unnecessary and illogical. If the rift can tear them apart then why not just send part of them into a rift and instantly murder them instead of transferring them safely over using banish.

Limited vision/engagement I could approve of- but more like reduced by 20-30%. Reduced by 70% is WAY too powerful.

Yes- yes YES. This is Limbo's #1 issue. Anything in cataclysm with you should be able to be interacted with and picked up. There are some slight benefits to not being able to pick up loot/energy/etc in a cataclysm until you shut it off but it's heavily outweighed by the negatives. Rift walking and carrying a datamass makes sense to me frankly- just take it with us- but this is a gameplay balance issue so I believe it should remain the way it is, but cataclysm carrying a datamass or hacking a console would be fine. You'd still be vulnerable- just less so than if you were in the "overworld".

I agree that auras should not reach him in the rift plane. I agree with this- enemies should not be able to use a console that is in a cataclysm unless they are too, and if they can use them while they are banished then that should change too. Warframe powers reaching through doesn't even really make sense to me, but from a gameplay perspective it's important. Maybe that's DE's excuse for auras reaching through too.

I'm going to explain and defend my ideas below. But I am really more interested in getting a discussion going on how we can improve the Rift mechanic, more than anything so I hope my defense serves as some inspiration for other ideas.

1) For my bit I think eliminating cross-planar sound would be awesome. I'd use it the same way I often use Rift Walk and Banish in missions when I solo. To isolate and eliminate enemies. I prefer Limbo over Loki for spy missions because I can whistle my way through most obstacles (as can Loki because he can teleport and be invisible and use silent weapons so this is hardly OP for Limbo). But one thing that really hurts Limbo is the fact that he is visible, and that his powers alert enemies it doesn't kill. Alerted wardens that are banished shouldn't be able to communicate that alarm. So instead of just being invisible like everything else. Why not be silent and clever. I think it suites his theme.

2) I agree with the statement that Limbo is about battlefield control. But what is the point of taking the high ground if it gives you no advantages? Right now the Rift is not advantageous to be inside of. It should, and this is my way to make that happen. When you banish an enemy right now they take a blast proc and some damage. My thought is random CC chance will improve the situation a little. Mind I said 10% per second spend in the rift. That means a large number of enemies would have one or two members being hit every second. Which is about right. But I'd love some alternative ideas.

3) I know 70% is a lot, as a first sketch I thought i'd go too far than too little. 20/30% is too little. Most enemies will need to run forward a few steps to see you. And often as not enemies inside a large cataclysm will be able to see you across the whole thing. I like the idea of enemies having trouble engaging you in a large cataclysm bubble. Maybe this idea isn't a good idea, maybe it is. Not sure. 

4) That's a consensus around here I've seen.

5) I don't think it's really a balance issue like people think it is. Valkyr can be actually invulnerable. Loki can be indefinitely invisible. All while interacting with datamasses. Why should Limbo be any different when the same nullifiers effect his invulnerability that effects everyone elses?

[Stratego89]

5 minutes ago, CortezHextus said:

I'm going to explain and defend my ideas below. But I am really more interested in getting a discussion going on how we can improve the Rift mechanic, more than anything so I hope my defense serves as some inspiration for other ideas.

1) For my bit I think eliminating cross-planar sound would be awesome. I'd use it the same way I often use Rift Walk and Banish in missions when I solo. To isolate and eliminate enemies. I prefer Limbo over Loki for spy missions because I can whistle my way through most obstacles (as can Loki because he can teleport and be invisible and use silent weapons so this is hardly OP for Limbo). But one thing that really hurts Limbo is the fact that he is visible, and that his powers alert enemies it doesn't kill. Alerted wardens that are banished shouldn't be able to communicate that alarm. So instead of just being invisible like everything else. Why not be silent and clever. I think it suites his theme.

2) I agree with the statement that Limbo is about battlefield control. But what is the point of taking the high ground if it gives you no advantages? Right now the Rift is not advantageous to be inside of. It should, and this is my way to make that happen. When you banish an enemy right now they take a blast proc and some damage. My thought is random CC chance will improve the situation a little. Mind I said 10% per second spend in the rift. That means a large number of enemies would have one or two members being hit every second. Which is about right. But I'd love some alternative ideas.

3) I know 70% is a lot, as a first sketch I thought i'd go too far than too little. 20/30% is too little. Most enemies will need to run forward a few steps to see you. And often as not enemies inside a large cataclysm will be able to see you across the whole thing. I like the idea of enemies having trouble engaging you in a large cataclysm bubble. Maybe this idea isn't a good idea, maybe it is. Not sure. 

4) That's a consensus around here I've seen.

5) I don't think it's really a balance issue like people think it is. Valkyr can be actually invulnerable. Loki can be indefinitely invisible. All while interacting with datamasses. Why should Limbo be any different when the same nullifiers effect his invulnerability that effects everyone elses?

1. Again totally agree with this sounds and comms thing. Pulling people into the rift should keep them from alerting anyone non-visually. It would be nice if they were also unaware they had been pulled into rift. I like the knockdown banish provides for finishers so here is my suggestion. Enemies that are not alerted will NOT receive the knockdown of banish- only be thrown into the rift and become unable to alert other enemies non-visually, be unable to activate alarms (it'd be cool if they couldn't figure that out and went to consoles anyways, wasting their time, making them stand still, and having them sit there freaking out "WHY ISN'T IT WORKING! *hits console repeatedly*"- it could even open them to finishers while they're busy with it). Limbo is a battlefield-strategist, a manipulator, and an assassin at his core. This would further reinforce all of those. Now that you mention not just being cut off audibly with gunfire- but as a whole in terms of communication- it sounds like a REALLY good idea- the only one I've ever seen that's a proper change to Limbo's mechanics that I think he could and SHOULD actually get.

2. I'd once again maybe be ok with random radiation procs- but that's only really going to be helpful in cataclysm. I just cannot approve of blast/impact procs that will throw off my headshots or end up forcing me into ground finishers while I'm whacking at a crowd with my melee- stopping me dead in my tracks and getting me killed. Limbo is squishy one misstep can spell death for him.

3. The 20-30% blind REALLY is not too little. Absolute max it should be is 50%. Their visual range is massive- having 30% taken off is a big change. Rift surge gives you enough of an advantage in the rift- Limbo doesn't need more. You SLAUGHTER absolutely EVERYTHING. You are a GOD in the rift as long as you don't take too many guys into it with you or not pay attention.

4. Yep, definitely a concensus. Makes no sense whatsoever and can be used to troll other players. Not picking stuff up in cataclysm is non-sensical and problem creating, and the fact that it's not changed yet amazes me. Maybe next devstream I'll put up a question asking if they'll change JUST that real quick until he can get a proper look-see.

5. No. Using clearly overpowered and commonly-known-as-problematic abilities from other stuff as a reason for your own stuff to be on the same level is not ok. "Exalted blade can kill the whole game forever- so my avalanche should too". That's not ok. The only time people need to resort to using other overpowered stuff as a reason for why their stuff isn't "that bad" is because they've lost an argument. Just avoid that entirely dude. That stuff needs to be nerfed- other stuff should not be compared to and buffed up to their level. Loki hides himself- he cannot isolate his team from enemies or vice versa. Invisibility should not make him perfectly undetectable at all ranges even if you stand point blank in front of someone- that's obvious, and even if that were to happen he'd still excel at datamass carrying. Deception is a minor gamemode that clearly needs to be replaced- complaining about being able to carry datamasses while in invisibility or invincible valkyr is nearly pointless. Now if it's something like power cores in excavation it's a little different- but if the cataclysm change came there wouldn't be an issue. It's not a matter of carrying a datamass in rift walk being overpowered- it's a matter of it not making sense and making a game mode trivial. Those other frames shouldn't be able to make it trivial either- excel, sure- but not trivialize it. I've ranted on with this point- but the TL;DR is "don't ever use 'well this stuff is clearly OP so why can't this be too' as an argument, it does nothing but hurt your case."

[swizzybeatzjamz]

I honestly like that idea and it fits his random magician type theme... Who knows what tricks He will put out of his hat to the unaware enemies In his land

[-Temp0-]

Honestly cataclysm kinda-sorta could've worked, if it actually made it safe for the extractors/cryopods. But the fact that it only blocks fire is stupid at best. Why enemies are able to freely pass through it is beyond me. In fact it's so annoying that almost no one wants Limbo to cast cataclysm in order to protect something cause it's basically useless and very annoying for the teammates - can't see clearly though it while you're outside, can't shoot through it from both sides it's just... 

Edited April 1, 2016 by Nomen_Nescio

[----Fenrir----]

4 hours ago, TwiceDead said:

imbo really shines in sortie missions, the tougher the enemies the more valuable he becomes.

The power of" separation" as you call it is not one to be underestimated. Isolating yourself from anything that can harm you, while you retain the power to harm anyone you want anytime you want, is Massive. 

Sorry, but that is just nonsense. What good is having a Limbo in the team when you get rushed by hordes of lvl 100 enemies? He has no CC. And at best he drags enemies into the rift 1 by 1 because that's all he can handle. Resulting in an atrociously slow kill rate. Having a Limbo is only slightly more useful than having a person being afk.

Try doing a survival with Limbo. You can stay in the rift all you want but you will still run out of life support very early without someone to carry you and actually kill enemies at a decent rate.

[CortezHextus]

8 hours ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

Honestly cataclysm kinda-sorta could've worked, if it actually made it safe for the extractors/cryopods. But the fact that it only blocks fire is stupid at best. Why enemies are able to freely pass through it is beyond me. In fact it's so annoying that almost no one wants Limbo to cast cataclysm in order to protect something cause it's basically useless and very annoying for the teammates - can't see clearly though it while you're outside, can't shoot through it from both sides it's just... 

Honestly that's a really good thought I hadn't even considered. I've had people suggest enemies being unable to leave cataclysm. But enemies being unable to enter it would actually turn Limbo's ultimate into a very powerful ability. And make it the tiny arena it was always meant to be. Plus it synergises well with Banish (and the implied and much suggested hold-to-group-banish) in that enemies once banished would of course be able to enter. Awesome idea. Though I think Cataclysm is better for high level D as opposed to Snow Globe with a team who knows how to work with it since it has no damage cap.

 

11 hours ago, Stratego89 said:

TL;DR is "don't ever use 'well this stuff is clearly OP so why can't this be too' as an argument, it does nothing but hurt your case."

Normally I'd agree with this sentiment. But this is Warframe. We're OP immortal space ninjas with magical powers. Not to say I don't think balance is all kinds of janked up right now. Infinite scaling etc, endless invisibility and invulnerability are definitely undesirable as a global gameplay concept. But even if we reduce down the duration of invisibility or invulnerability I still think Limbo should be just as capable in this matter. Those frames with invisibility or invulnerability do not have the condition of being removed from the battle entirely applied to them. Its a boon and a bane. I've heard people suggest he have increased energy drain while interacting with physical objects. I think this is a good way to do it.

But I'm not going to go down with the ship on this one. Him carrying datamasses has never been an issue for me. Being unable to banish Capture targets has me miffed though....A dangerous assassin who can't even assassin any more is bugging me something fierce.

 

11 hours ago, Stratego89 said:

Rift surge gives you enough of an advantage in the rift- Limbo doesn't need more. You SLAUGHTER absolutely EVERYTHING. You are a GOD in the rift as long as you don't take too many guys into it with you or not pay attention.

I mean...kinda? Like he does a lot of damage 1v1 in the rift even at high level content. But honestly one mis-step and it is GG. And the caveat that you can't take too many guys into the Rift with you is the exact problem with Limbo right now. We need the Rift to be more advantageous to Limbo AND his team. Otherwise all you can use it for is damage mitigation and frankly Radial Blind and other similar CCs are better for that. Plus this is a major reason people don't see Limbo as a useful team mate, because his TTK is terrible and interferes with other player's TTK.

So basically I'd like to field the question: How do we make the Rift a disadvantageous place for Enemies an advantageous place for Friends and a very advantageous place for Limbo?

To me we need to add some level of crowd control to the rift mechanic. We need to make enemies weaker in some way (reduced vision range being my attempt). I don't think we need to buff the Rift all that much for allies, as long as enemies are weakened in a few ways that allies can take advantage of they already get a sweet energy boon. In my mind Rift Surge should have the same duration as Rift Walk to simplify things and should provide Limbo with some defensive buffs conditional to the rift.

Edited April 1, 2016 by CortezHextus

[TwiceDead]

11 hours ago, ----Fenrir---- said:

Sorry, but that is just nonsense. What good is having a Limbo in the team when you get rushed by hordes of lvl 100 enemies? He has no CC. And at best he drags enemies into the rift 1 by 1 because that's all he can handle. Resulting in an atrociously slow kill rate. Having a Limbo is only slightly more useful than having a person being afk.

Try doing a survival with Limbo. You can stay in the rift all you want but you will still run out of life support very early without someone to carry you and actually kill enemies at a decent rate.

l2p, good sir.

Survival with Limbo? I do that all the time. 
Now what? 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

1 hour ago, TwiceDead said:

l2p, good sir.

Survival with Limbo? I do that all the time. 
Now what? 

Limbo's only utility is from letting warframes powers still hit while being in the void. If limbo's banish stopped everything, He'd be worthless. You can replace limbo with any other frame in a t4 survival and it would be easier. 

A frost can be used to Slow down enemies with 4 snow globes, Remove armor and protect teammates. 

Banshee can offer a team wide damage buff and CC

Limbo offers a tenno time out.

Nova offers hard cc and damage. 

Loki can disable enemies. 

 

notice a pattern how limbo is kinda useless compared to the rest?

[TwiceDead]

21 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Limbo's only utility is from letting warframes powers still hit while being in the void. If limbo's banish stopped everything, He'd be worthless. You can replace limbo with any other frame in a t4 survival and it would be easier. 

A frost can be used to Slow down enemies with 4 snow globes, Remove armor and protect teammates. 

Banshee can offer a team wide damage buff and CC

Limbo offers a tenno time out.

Nova offers hard cc and damage. 

Loki can disable enemies. 

 

notice a pattern how limbo is kinda useless compared to the rest?

Oh yeah... Know what any of those frames are lacking? 
Complete freedom. You can waltz around at your own leisure, revive as necessary, kill as necessary, and isolate enemies(Or teammates) as necessary. The only thing you are lacking is killing-efficiency, and that's not what Limbo is supposed to do anyway as the power of Isolation is more than enough. Who needs Health and Shields? You've got complete immortality and can kill anyone whenever you wish no matter where. Ideally, Limbo dying shouldn't be a thing, but too many people are fed into the idea of "KILL EVERYTHING AS FAST AS POSSIBLE FOR MXImUM ASEMONWESS!!!" and refuse to utilize him the way he's supposed to be. 

Regardless of lacking killing-efficiency, In Sorties I frequently top the kill-charts because allies are either too dead to do anything or too scared to engage enemies, assuming I am not up against something like an Ash, this won't be a competition. I can simply banish and kill enemies quicker than allies can get through an enemy's bullet-spongy armor, but they have to think about cover, dodging and staying alive... I just gotta watch my timers. Also, Sortie defense missions? Banish the target, done, you might as well have won the 10 waves already.  

If you plan to counter my argument by party-composition arguments, forget it. Limbo doesn't need friends, he's got the Rift, and as long as he's got time, he will never lose... There's only a few enemies that can kill him in the Rift, and those can easily be banished before they even get to target you, which knocks them down and makes them helpless. 

But hey, you've probably decided you're gonna be narrow-minded about this and have already made up your mind, your choice. I have no obligation to prove you otherwise, and frankly you're not worth it the effort, so if you think all Limbo offers is a time-out, I am not going to waste anymore of my time on you. 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

42 minutes ago, TwiceDead said:

Oh yeah... Know what any of those frames are lacking? 
Complete freedom. You can waltz around at your own leisure, revive as necessary, kill as necessary, and isolate enemies(Or teammates) as necessary. The only thing you are lacking is killing-efficiency, and that's not what Limbo is supposed to do anyway as the power of Isolation is more than enough. Who needs Health and Shields? You've got complete immortality and can kill anyone whenever you wish no matter where. Ideally, Limbo dying shouldn't be a thing, but too many people are fed into the idea of "KILL EVERYTHING AS FAST AS POSSIBLE FOR MXImUM ASEMONWESS!!!" and refuse to utilize him the way he's supposed to be. 

 

Loki can do that, Ash can do that, Chroma can laugh as enemies tickle him with their gunfire, Ivara can sleep enemies or turn herself, allies invisible. Limbo got nothing on Ivara or equinox with their sleeps

[(PSN)Zero-0-P]

Limbo is my favorite frame I don't feel he need much change aside from the cataclysm. A easy and team useful addition to cataclysm would be dense fog like what you encounter in sorties it would lower visibility and have it increase stealth and finisher chance or damage or both. That way the ability is always useful it helps the team indirectly and of course it adds to Limbos survival in the rift.

[(PSN)Zero-0-P]

On ‎4‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 9:09 PM, CortezHextus said:

I think Limbo suffers mostly from bad rules in regards to the Rift not in his ability set. But here are some changes I would make. I also think that Rift Surge at minimum should buff Limbo's armor and shields while he's fighting inside of it.

1) Sounds made in the rift cannot be heard by enemies outside it and vise versa. This would afford Limbo and his team a degree of additional stealthiness for sneaky take downs, even with ranged weapons.

2) Each 1s spent in the rift an enemy has a 10% chance of one of the following status effects. Radiation. Staggered. Blast. 300 Rift damage. This represents the rift being a dangerous and foreign place. Confusing. Enemies bumping into invisible 'things'. Shooting friends in confused terror and the Rift's general riskiness to be inside of.

3) Enemies inside the Rift have their vision radius reduced by 70%. They remain alert but cannot see as far, and so engage less easily.

4) Cataclysm should effect loot and physical objects (such as data masses), consoles, etc.

5) The Rift should be made consistent. Enemies using Aura powers should not effect the rift plane. No one should be able to use consoles that aren't also caught up in Cataclysm. If you want to effect a thing you have to be on the same plane as it. The exception to this is Warframe Powers and Disruptors (who drain energy from those warframe powers). Things like rifted enemies using un-rifted consoles should not be happening.

I agree he should be able to use his abilities to the fullest. I feel he is the only frame with rules to how powerful he is or can be. I have another page called "LET'S TALK LIMBO" but I would definitely cut and paste this to it as a lot of it is similar to my thoughts.?

[(PSN)KuraiTora-UA]

Ok, first time I underestimated Limbo, but today I put reactor and couple of forma. Now I can say: He is awesome. This is one of the frame in which I use every abilities! 

I can only little complain about Cataclysm, in my opinion it must be buffed up. Cataclysm should deal damage not only by crossing borders but also for every foes inside the bubble.

And one thing about 1 and 2 ability: can you change animation for snap? (for example left hand snap - banish and right hand snap - rift walk). 

[Inugami8]

The only reason I don't use limbo that much is because everything is so bright when I'm on the other side. Having to turn off color correction each time I use limbo is also part of the problem

[CortezHextus]

I think in reference to a lot of the above arguing back and forth we really are going the wrong way. Limbo is NOT fine the way he is. He's not fine in a team. He's not fine solo. He's "good" but not "fantastic". You can do things with other frames that are comparable to his rift walk in terms of invulnerability while maintaining high damage output or CC.

This is coming from someone who started Warframe shortly after the release of Limbo and has mained him all the way up until current. I love his mechanic, and I play him in such a way that I am very well liked among my clan mates. They all understand how to take advantage of him. And they know when I banish them I do it for good reasons (or because I missed an enemy) and switch up their tactics accordingly.

Limbo needs some CC to keep up with other warframes capabilities though. He just does, and I think that CC should come as a passive part of the Rift as a plane. I do think there are ways to make his powers kit a little better. And all of that is great. Hell; I'll post some of those suggestions.

So again the real question I have, since so far no one else has thrown down any ideas is:

How do we make the Rift a disadvantageous place for Enemies an advantageous place for Friends and a very advantageous place for Limbo?

 

Below are some ideas in regards to reworking his powers.

1) His 1 can be held to banish enemies in a radius around the target. Allowing fast, single target banishes, and group banishes. Energy cost should be reduced significantly to 15 (per enemy banished). Rather than 25 base. This means he can throw banish around all over the place. As he should. It has terrible damage scaling and while in low levels (<25) you can kill enemies with it; its not FOR killing things. Frankly I'd be fine if it didn't even cause damage and only caused a blast proc.

2) Rift Walk is fine as it is.

3) Rift Surge should be replaced with a new ability that I call Labyrinth (playing off the theme). Labyrinth places a wall in front of Limbo (similar to Volt's electric shield) which is effected by Stretch for Width. Any enemies wandering through it are shunted into the Rift for 3x the duration of Banish. Warframes that move through it are simple Banished at normal duration. Shots fired through it either enter or exit the rift depending on the status of the firer. Enemy originated explosive projectiles with travel time (Eg Ogris) are explode upon entering or exiting the rift plane (rift damage). Every cycle (1x duration of banish) the enemy has a 10% chance of stumbling out of the Rift OR taking a bunch of damage ('something' got Bob!)

4) Enemies should not be able to exit Cataclysm. No other changes.

 

And finally:

Rift surge is conditional to being in the rift, and that's fine, which also means it shouldn't really cost anything to run it. Remove augments associated with rift surge. Turn it into his Passive. Limbo also receives a scaling armor buff and light over shields while in the rift. This makes Limbo tougher and more powerful in the rift than otherwise; making him a true master of the rift.

[hukurokuju5]

main problem is his lack of CC on a frame that will inevitably have to trade damage with enemies in the rift.  

this is why safest way to use him is to assassinate with banish SOLELY BECAUSE of the factors of ISOLATION and KNOCKDOWN proc

 

 

- banish has knockdown which lets limbo get first dibs on the damage trade, whereas with cataclysm, having no CC, makes for dangerous trades

- banish is single target, allowing for ISOLATION of enemies. this limits the sources of threats to limbo to 1.   Cataclysm, however, exposes him to damage from multiple enemies on top of the fact that limbo does not have the benefit of getting the jump on enemies...

 

 

A SIMPLE SOLUTION: 

add some kind of CC ( knockdown, slow, w/e)  to enemies on any entry or exit of rift.

adding some kind of short damage reduction or buff to players entry and exit of rift would ENCOURAGE rift IN and OUT interaction.

any additional rift mechanics would only help to make limbo a more enjoyable frame for not only the player, but his teammates as well

 

Edited April 2, 2016 by hukurokuju5

[IRVoidGuru]

i didnt read much on this topic as atm im Quickly forum searching , but i thought id add. ( and tbh probly not get others to read ) my idea about limbo's First second and third skills , all being able to be part of  1!!!, thats right , same as ivara micanics , Quick spam of banish works on allys , holding bacnish  ( like fireing ivaras first skill) will rift walk , and wait for it , when  you rift walk rift surge is already active!!! , why this idea? cuz it opens up 2 !!! Brand new skill slots ! for new rift minipulating nice abilitys.  if any 1 reads this lmk what they think i may create a new post about limbo power reworks and possabilitys for new skills 

Edited April 3, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33

[ashrah]

limbo really needs total rework...without natural talent he was almost unpleyable especially on high lvl....also wen  u are in rift u cant pick up nothing what is big deal...

[NKDG]

1 hour ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

i didnt read much on this topic as atm im Quickly forum searching , but i thought id add. ( and tbh probly not get others to read ) my idea about limbo's First second and third skills , all being able to be part of  1!!!, thats right , same as ivara micanics , Quick spam of banish works on allys , holding bacnish  ( like fireing ivaras first skill) will rift walk , and wait for it , when  you rift walk rift surge is already active!!! , why this idea? cuz it opens up 2 !!! Brand new skill slots ! for new rift minipulating nice abilitys.  if any 1 reads this lmk what they think i may create a new post about limbo power reworks and possabilitys for new skills 

No! I have enough trouble accidentally switching arrows, I'd rather not have that trouble by accidentally banishing one of the many in the hordes in front of me when I wanted to escape those hordes, that's friggin annoying. Leave that alone please. 

[IRVoidGuru]

2 hours ago, NKDG said:

No! I have enough trouble accidentally switching arrows, I'd rather not have that trouble by accidentally banishing one of the many in the hordes in front of me when I wanted to escape those hordes, that's friggin annoying. Leave that alone please. 

read in a little more detail , no switching  quick tap for banish , hold for rift walk , is how i had it . i would understand if switching between them was my idea , that would be a problem , but as its not what i had said . try to think openly about it for a min and get back to me 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, NKDG said:

No! I have enough trouble accidentally switching arrows, I'd rather not have that trouble by accidentally banishing one of the many in the hordes in front of me when I wanted to escape those hordes, that's friggin annoying. Leave that alone please. 

^This. Also, holding down a key for rift walk significantly increases the cast time and directly impacts Limbo's survivability.

The problem with Limbo currently does not involve killing efficiency. Limbo players can opt for a Cataclysm build, creating a chokehold point for enemies to pass through, thus creating a death zone. Plus, the range of cataclysm can be affected by range mods. And boom, your enemies are already dead like more than 50m away from you, and the ones outside cataclysm deals 0 damage. The most you could do in case of a tactical blunder is to throw it some survivability mods like Quick Thinking and Vitality to avoid death, but you can get the kills pretty easily once you stack rift surge on your attacks. Getting kills is not a problem, but players rarely adapt to this tactic as it may be too risky, and it "steals kills", because apparently people are too lazy to even bother to get inside the cataclysm. The key problem is Limbo's communication with other players. Players have shown to have overwhelming results when a Limbo and Vauban is on the team, Volt can also gain a significant advantage from Limbo's Banish, not to mention a blind Mirage, or a surging dash Excalibur. However, none of this is really a factor. The reason why Limbo is hated amongst the playerbase is because the players have already established stereotypes for different Warframes, automatically fitting them into different roles. With a Limbo on the team, the team may experience a change in their roles. For example, a sniper Limbo guarding the pod with Cataclysm will force the team's Frost to become a CC frame or a DPS frame, or a Mirage would have to sacrifice thrilling action for even more mindless spamming. This drastic change in team role directly impacts the players' experience. Plus, due to the psychological factor of "fear of change", people would eventually take it out on Limbo, forcing Limbo into an executioner, a way that impacts other players the least. If you want to uncover Limbo's true potential, use a couple of minutes to figure out your tactics with your team.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Guest

[CortezHextus]

To those members suggesting Banish and Rift Walk be merged I recommend against this. Limbo needs to be able to easily move to the rift, it is his 'magicians escape' trick. He needs it as a button. And that is OK.

His 1 should have a hold to multi-banish function. Allowing quick banishes and group banishes. And his 1 should be base 15 per enemy banished. It should be cheap as all getout.

Limbo is a fun frame, and his effectiveness is not something I am doubting. I am doubting his comparative effectiveness. Yes you can improve things by coordinating with your team better and exploiting his advantages. No denying that either. But he's not BETTER than just killing everything very fast. He is not BETTER than stunning things consistently. He is middle grade useful. He can be better than that and he just needs a little CC to help out and a little extra toughness in the rift itself. 

A little thoughtful tweaking of his 1 and 4, and a new 3. Simple things can be done to limbo that change him very little but make him very much better.

Edited April 3, 2016 by CortezHextus

[(PSN)Zero-0-P]

I just had a very simple thought if you fine warframers dont mind me sharing. The simplest rework for Limbo would be to change Rift Surge. Make it so the multiplier increases him overall from his health to shields to armor and even movement speed, that 3.0 multiplier would cover it all. At that point casting cataclysm would make him master of the rift once he entered it. Now it doesn't have to be 3.0 across the board, I know that could end up being very OP to some but you get the idea. Make him overall stronger in the rift. I believe if he was from the start he would have miner issues yes what warframe didn't or doesn't but it would make him more playable and people would have fewer complaints.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, CortezHextus said:

Limbo is a fun frame, and his effectiveness is not something I am doubting. I am doubting his comparative effectiveness. Yes you can improve things by coordinating with your team better and exploiting his advantages. No denying that either. But he's not BETTER than just killing everything very fast. He is not BETTER than stunning things consistently. He is middle grade useful. He can be better than that and he just needs a little CC to help out and a little extra toughness in the rift itself. 

Again, as I have previously stated:

18 hours ago, Madho said:

The problem with Limbo currently does not involve killing efficiency. Limbo players can opt for a Cataclysm build, creating a chokehold point for enemies to pass through, thus creating a death zone. Plus, the range of cataclysm can be affected by range mods. And boom, your enemies are already dead like more than 50m away from you, and the ones outside cataclysm deals 0 damage. The most you could do in case of a tactical blunder is to throw it some survivability mods like Quick Thinking and Vitality to avoid death, but you can get the kills pretty easily once you stack rift surge on your attacks.

It is possible for Limbo to become a mass murdering machine. It is possible for Limbo to completely negate damage from enemies in an area. The problem is, his teammates often neither appreciate nor take their time to fully understand the rift mechanism... (is it really THAT hard to read the wiki?) for some reason. Yes, there are possible tweaks for Limbo to be more useful, like buffing his base stats, or not affected by auras in rift, or trapping enemies inside cataclysm. However, Limbo will never be able to have any significant impact on teamplay if other players do not wish to. 

 

5 hours ago, (PS4)Zero-0-P said:

I just had a very simple thought if you fine warframers dont mind me sharing. The simplest rework for Limbo would be to change Rift Surge. Make it so the multiplier increases him overall from his health to shields to armor and even movement speed, that 3.0 multiplier would cover it all. At that point casting cataclysm would make him master of the rift once he entered it. Now it doesn't have to be 3.0 across the board, I know that could end up being very OP to some but you get the idea. Make him overall stronger in the rift. I believe if he was from the start he would have miner issues yes what warframe didn't or doesn't but it would make him more playable and people would have fewer complaints.

Which is why I do not think other people would have fewer complaints. As long as they do not do their research and blindly shoot at rifted enemies, we as Limbo players could not help them in any way possible. My only advice to this is do NOT run PUGs. They do not have the time, nor they are interested in forming the most basic tactics and figure out ability combos and enjoy the game. They only want the rewards ASAP, and sadly, the "It's not about the ending, it's about the journey" quote does not work for Warframe, with so much grinding and as little gaming experience as possible.

[AbstractLemons]

I had suggested Limbo getting an auto-banish mechanic so team mates can not only the rift but enter as well when they need it. Team mates that attack rifted enemies should be automatically sent into the rift. Stunning enemies upon cataclysm casting and if spamming it for cc is a worry they can give enemies temporary invul to the stun upon recovery so he cant just mash 4.

 

This would open up the number of options and tactis limbo is able to use instead of having to always rely on a doorway to ambush the enemies and pray he does enough damage to one shot them before they shoot back, and allows him to more freely place it over groups of enemies without an absurd amount of communication with his team.

Team work doesn't always mean boss everyone around and tell them how to do their job when they already know how to do it. Limbo currently forces his style of play onto his team so they need to be able to weave in and out of it so that his abilities are more of a useful utility for them rather than a complete entire shift in playstyle for them.

Limbo would be able to engage in his tactical play style without forcing everyone else to conform to him and vice versa.

 

Adding a secondary effect to rift surge (giving it the Mirage's Eclipse treatment) could work as well. I have suggested adding a cc effect to his weapons so when he attacks he creates shockwaves that stagger enemies, and have this work across the dimensions so he can still remain active in combat even when on the defensive without breaking the rules of his rift mechanic.

 

These would be among the most beneficial changes for Limbo and allow him to work in a group and be competent enough to take care of himself in combat. Too many hoops have to jumped through right now to the point that if you are not using at least one syndicate weapon on him you are crazy, its very much needed to help Limbo deal with enemy hordes bigger than the number 1 since limbo (a mathmatical genius) isn't allowed to count higher than 1 in alot of situations.

Edited April 4, 2016 by AbstractLemons
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