My Problem With The Concept Of Valkyr Prime

[Queen_Crimson]

Lots of people want this, as do I. DE stated in Devstream #67 that "All warframes will eventually have Prime forms". That means Valkyr too, obviously. Here's my concerns about this.

 

Valkyr as we know from day one was the broken down, practically skinned warframe with Corpus parts wedged in. Her lore says that her rage is from her torture, and her screams are from it, etc. etc. So this technically means Valkyr's abilities CHANGED post Corpus torture.

 

Don't even get me started about how this whole "The warframes are just suits and not Tenno inside" thing ruins the fact that I imagined Valkyr, and all warframes, to have a first, initial human-bodied Tenno with unique powers concept, meaning that after the first everything was just war clones. Maybe this is still a thing, we'll see, I'd love it if the lore stated that each warframe was once an Orokin inside. 

 

Also, don't get me started about how Gersemi doesn't even remotely match Valkyr, I made a different topic of that. In summary, completely different body proportions. I'm assuming the powers either are A. that she always, by chance, had her powers she has now, or B. the Gersemi skin adapted to the new powers. Would explain the interesting arm of blades instead of studs on a Corpus arm block.

 

Now the whole thing I'm getting at by this is that: What is Valkyr Prime even going to be based off of? Is it Post-Corpus or is it Gersemi? 

 

Valkyr Prime only makes sense if one thing happened: The first Valkyr experimented on was the Prime. Because if not, then Valkyr Prime would be based off of Gersemi, and in reality it would have different abilities unless, again, ability adaption. 

 

If the original WAS Valkyr Prime, however, that might mean that Gersemi, like all Tenno warframes, is a replication of the Prime original, so that means that Valkyr is just a torn-down Prime, Gersemi is the Tenno-ization of what Valkyr Prime looked like, and that Valkyr Prime looks more like Gersemi but hopefully fits Post-Corpus' body shape.

 

In summary, Valkyr Prime would be a massive lore hole. How could Valkyr be Prime if the Valkyr we know would just be Gersemi, because then Valkyr Prime would literally be another warframe entirely, stats and powers. 

 

My question to others, what do you think would fix the plot hole?

 

My question to DE: How will you fix this plot hole? You did kind of promise us that every warframe eventually will have a Prime. 

 

I love Valkyr, and Valkyr Prime is a complete mystery and is one of the only warframes with lore behind it, which is a shame that all warframes don't have their own. After we deal with Tenno, Orokin, and other lore, we should start to work with individual warframe lore, because I see warframes as a book with shut pages. I can't imagine someone in an Orokin factory slapped a random blueprint of a Primed warframe and decided on its powers, strengths, and weaknesses. 

 

DE, bring us that lovely lovely warframe lore.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Queen_Crimson

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

What if walker's fellow tenno felt bad for her getting tortured at the hands of the corpus and took her to a t5 tower and through her into a sea of forma...

 

When she came out she was valkyr prime xP

 

(Boar prime was a weapon made by priming a tenno weapon using orokin tech, They could do the same for a warframe *cough nova prime cough*)

[Queen_Crimson]

What if walker's fellow tenno felt bad for her getting tortured at the hands of the corpus and took her to a t5 tower and through her into a sea of forma...

 

When she came out she was valkyr prime xP

 

(Boar prime was a weapon made by priming a tenno weapon using orokin tech, They could do the same for a warframe *cough nova prime cough*)

Eh, I suppose, but that'd be a cheap way to do it. I don't know why Nova was considered that way though.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Except, a Valkyr Prime does not contradict this lore, even with all of her abilities left intact.

The lore reads, "Forged in the labs of the Zanuka project, the original Valkyr was subject to cruel experiments, leaving her scarred, angry and frighteningly adept at killing."

 

As most of us are likely aware, the lore is intentionally written in such a way that it can inherit many interpretations. 

In this case, we can interpret 'forged' as a fraudulent reproduction, which would not be unsurprising given Alad V's eventual Zanuka project. Past that. "leaving her scarred, angry and frighteningly adept at killing". She is quite obviously visually scarred, given the Warframe's appearance, angry at her captors would be a given, and adept at killing could attribute to her escape. 

 

While the original Valkyr may have owned the same rage-based abilities, she perhaps didn't own the skill, which "adept at killing" alludes to the gaining of this experience.

An important note is this is the "original Valkyr" in the lore snippet, and not the replicas the Tenno had created after the fact, or the warriors the Orokin had created specifically to fight their battles. My imagination would be that should many blueprints exist to create a replica of a Warframe, i.e. any Prime Warframe, then that Prime Warframe is not the original.

 

I could be wrong, surely, but what I'm trying to make the point for is that the lore can easily be twisted in such a way to make sense, even were it to be rather cheesy.

[KiloFoxx]

Eh, I suppose, but that'd be a cheap way to do it. I don't know why Nova was considered that way though.

From the Wiki:

"According to Nova's profile, her Warframe was a result of Tenno High Council research. This is widely believed to be a nod to the Design Council that aided in Nova's creation."

This basically implies that Nova was produced Post Fall of the Orokin, and SHOULDN'T have a Prime...

 

I do agree on Valk though. I have NO idea where I heard it, but I recall hearing that "Original" Valk was a Plant/Life warframe

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

From the Wiki:

"According to Nova's profile, her Warframe was a result of Tenno High Council research. This is widely believed to be a nod to the Design Council that aided in Nova's creation."

This basically implies that Nova was produced Post Fall of the Orokin, and SHOULDN'T have a Prime...

 

I do agree on Valk though. I have NO idea where I heard it, but I recall hearing that "Original" Valk was a Plant/Life warframe

Though, the Tenno High Council is a removed text. Even were it not, there is no indication when the Tenno High Council had existed, and could certainly have existed during the Orokin Era.

[Archwizard]

a result of Tenno High Council research

 

A result of research could just mean "Hey guys, we found these old blueprints amongst what little remains of the old Orokin records".

[Queen_Crimson]

Though, the Tenno High Council is a removed text. Even were it not, there is no indication when the Tenno High Council had existed, and could certainly have existed during the Orokin Era.

Well, if it's a result, perhaps it could mean that they found unused blueprints. Or they did just make a Prime after, which is weird to have as a lore choice.

 

It also seems that people think the High Council existed during the Orokin Era, since Tenno were originally from the Orokin after all. Nova could've been built then, during the war, still counting as a Prime like all others.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Queen_Crimson

[Queen_Crimson]

Except, a Valkyr Prime does not contradict this lore, even with all of her abilities left intact.

The lore reads, "Forged in the labs of the Zanuka project, the original Valkyr was subject to cruel experiments, leaving her scarred, angry and frighteningly adept at killing."

 

As most of us are likely aware, the lore is intentionally written in such a way that it can inherit many interpretations. 

In this case, we can interpret 'forged' as a fraudulent reproduction, which would not be unsurprising given Alad V's eventual Zanuka project. Past that. "leaving her scarred, angry and frighteningly adept at killing". She is quite obviously visually scarred, given the Warframe's appearance, angry at her captors would be a given, and adept at killing could attribute to her escape. 

 

While the original Valkyr may have owned the same rage-based abilities, she perhaps didn't own the skill, which "adept at killing" alludes to the gaining of this experience.

An important note is this is the "original Valkyr" in the lore snippet, and not the replicas the Tenno had created after the fact, or the warriors the Orokin had created specifically to fight their battles. My imagination would be that should many blueprints exist to create a replica of a Warframe, i.e. any Prime Warframe, then that Prime Warframe is not the original.

 

I could be wrong, surely, but what I'm trying to make the point for is that the lore can easily be twisted in such a way to make sense, even were it to be rather cheesy.

"Forged" generally means to 'shape' something. Valkyr was reshaped, not only physically but via abilities. I can't see that pre-Corpus Valkyr screamed and went on a rampage with claws fitting the body she got Post-Corpus.

 

Unless they do that boring "Made after the war" thing, I can't see Valkyr Prime being anything but the first Valkyr truthfully. Alad V is an old man, and the Corpus have been around since the Orokin.

[ApolloXIII]

Here's my belief.

 

Valkyr was captured, powers unknown to us as we have never met her pre-corpus. Subjected to vivisection and torture, watching her own flesh stripped from her body drove her Tenno insane and that insanity bled into the frame, leading to her powers reworking into vicious means of tearing her captors to pieces to sate her newfound bloodlust.

 

The idea of Valkyr prime having unique powers intrigues me to no end, and would feel very fulfilling to me, as it would show the massive distinction between the original and the shell of her that was born of the pain.

 

But if DE doesn't want to do that, aside from me complaining about the lemons of life I will live with it. A Valkyr prime made of a retrofitted post-corpus Valkyr could have a very unique design, especially if they kept the scars.

[KiloFoxx]

"Forged" generally means to 'shape' something. Valkyr was reshaped, not only physically but via abilities. I can't see that pre-Corpus Valkyr screamed and went on a rampage with claws fitting the body she got Post-Corpus.

 

Unless they do that boring "Made after the war" thing, I can't see Valkyr Prime being anything but the first Valkyr truthfully. Alad V is an old man, and the Corpus have been around since the Orokin.

Yeah, this. This is what I expect with "Valk Prime"

 

Also, maybe there's more to Alad V than we currently see...

After all

A) He managed to CONTROL the Infested

B) He fought off THE INFESTATION from controlling him

C) HUNHOW flat-out CALLS him "Orokin" during Second Dream when you first find the Moon

[Queen_Crimson]

Yeah, this. This is what I expect with "Valk Prime"

 

Also, maybe there's more to Alad V than we currently see...

After all

A) He managed to CONTROL the Infested

B) He fought off THE INFESTATION from controlling him

C) HUNHOW flat-out CALLS him "Orokin" during Second Dream when you first find the Moon

What

 

But Alad V is a Corpus, isn't he? What would be Orokin about him?

[KiloFoxx]

What

 

But Alad V is a Corpus, isn't he? What would be Orokin about him?

No idea, but that dialogue happens during the Second Dream quest. Now it could be Hunhow Generalizing, or seeing Similarities between Corpus and Orokin, or Alad V is more than he seems... We don't know yet. but we DO know Alad V knows more than he lets on at the VERY least

[KiloFoxx]

 

An important note is this is the "original Valkyr" in the lore snippet, and not the replicas the Tenno had created after the fact, or the warriors the Orokin had created specifically to fight their battles. My imagination would be that should many blueprints exist to create a replica of a Warframe, i.e. any Prime Warframe, then that Prime Warframe is not the original.

 

My roomate actually has a theory on that, that the Primes may not have explicitly been the ORIGINAL, but more the Original production line. with higher-quality materials

 

If we look at Dark Sector (I know, I know, Non-canon but hear me out) the Technocyte plague forms around Hayden Tenno to basically create the Excalibur Warframe. (and around other infested people to basically create a similar Infested Faction to what we see in Warframe)

 

IF we extrapolate that SPECIFICALLY (and nothing else about Dark Sector) than we COULD imply that Warframes are still built this way. and maybe Regular warframes use a more mundane material for the "person" inside (that the Tenno is controlling) and the Prime uses a person of higher quality. Maybe an Orokin. MAYBE A TENNO.

 

Pure speculation mind you, but still... unsettling to think about

Edited January 23, 2016 by KiloFoxx

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

This may be a bit beside the main point, but... Second Dream spoilers ahead.

 

My interpretation is that the frames are occupied by a Tenno counterpart; a person bred by the Orokin and modified with the technocyte virus (no, I'm not invoking Dark Sector, multiple infested entities corroborate this) to act as a conduit for the true Tenno's power. This explains why warframes bleed and die, how your frame acts autonomously at the end of the Second Dream, and clears up all supposed conflicts in the lore. You are Tenno, created by exposure to the void and subsequent experimentation. The people in the suits are genetically-manipulated mutants whom you've been rescuing from cryopods.

 

So, in this regard at least, Valkyr Prime doesn't screw up the lore.

"Forged" generally means to 'shape' something. Valkyr was reshaped, not only physically but via abilities. I can't see that pre-Corpus Valkyr screamed and went on a rampage with claws fitting the body she got Post-Corpus.

 

Granted, this is still true.

Edited January 23, 2016 by (PS4)BlitzKeir

[Kusariyaro]

Well Valkyr's concept is now VOID (pun intended) cus a frame doesnt really react to pain the same as person.. so in the light of Second Dream I have no idea how one makes a lifeless robo-fleshy doll scream.... Soooo :D There u have it

Valkyr is literaly magic.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Well Valkyr's concept is now VOID (pun intended) cus a frame doesnt really react to pain the same as person.. so in the light of Second Dream I have no idea how one makes a lifeless robo-fleshy doll scream.... Soooo :D There u have it

Valkyr is literaly magic.

Take a closer look at the end of the Second Dream.

 

We all assumed they were lifeless husks, but it wasn't the Lotus that saved us then and there, it was our Warframe when we had no control.

[motorfirebox]

Take a closer look at the end of the Second Dream.

 

We all assumed they were lifeless husks, but it wasn't the Lotus that saved us then and there, it was our Warframe when we had no control.

 

Heck, look at the Rhino Prime codex entry. Warframes have never been lifeless robo-fleshy dolls. They've always been living, aware creatures.

[KiloFoxx]

 

This may be a bit beside the main point, but... Second Dream spoilers ahead.

 

My interpretation is that the frames are occupied by a Tenno counterpart; a person bred by the Orokin and modified with the technocyte virus (no, I'm not invoking Dark Sector, multiple infested entities corroborate this) to act as a conduit for the true Tenno's power. This explains why warframes bleed and die, how your frame acts autonomously at the end of the Second Dream, and clears up all supposed conflicts in the lore. You are Tenno, created by exposure to the void and subsequent experimentation. The people in the suits are genetically-manipulated mutants whom you've been rescuing from cryopods.

 

So, in this regard at least, Valkyr Prime doesn't screw up the lore.

 

Granted, this is still true.

 

Glance at my post above yours, I pretty much hypothesized a VERY similar thing.

 

 

The warframes breathe, Archwings are explicitly stated to house on-board Life Support, and Survival typically involves cutting off the Oxygen and other Life Support functions from the area you're in. Warframes obviously need to breathe, and if you need a more concrete example, go to any node that's iced over. you'll see the Warframe's "breath" escaping from around the mouth-area as they breathe. Warframes can be affected by the Bleed proc, and we actually HAVE blood as you can see splattered on walls after getting shot/slashed. and In the Second Dream quest the Warframe explicitly moves on its own DESPITE explicitly being shown to shut down when Disconnected from the Operator. Something that contridicts what we should expect to happen due to past events.

 

Also, from the Excalibur Entry:

"The Sentients had won. They had turned our weapons, our technology, against us. The more advanced we became, the greater our losses. The war was over unless we found a new way. In our desperation we turned to the Void. The blinding night, the hellspace where our science and reason failed.

We took the twisted few that had returned from that place. We built a frame around them, a conduit of their affliction. Gave them the weapons of the old ways. Gun and blade. A new warrior, a new code was born. These rejects, these Tenno, became our saviors. Warrior-Gods cast in steel and fury striking our enemies in a way they could never comprehend. Excalibur was the first."

 

While yes this can imply that the "Twisted Few" were the Tenno we play from the lost ship Zariman, I actually doubt that. (for reasons I'll explain in a minute). As the wording in the entry suggest that the frame was LITERALLY built around them. meaning that, as this is from the Orokin Era, so these would likely be the Primes we're talking about, that these Primes had these Original Tenno, people who came back from the Void Twisted and Wrong, encased inside them. and without the knowlege of this that WE have (in-universe) explains why we have to hunt for these Primes rather than build them ourselves, we're copying the Primes without a Main component, a Tenno Within.

 

Now as to why I believe that those "Twisted Few" are NOT the Tenno from the Zariman, Look at the Ember Prime entry:

 

"Three figures waited behind a simple table. Their attention on a single chair, bathed in light. An old woman's voice from the shadow: 'Send her in'. Across the room a security officer, stern and plain, opened the door. The outline of a young woman appeared at the door. She hesitated, but only for an instant, then crossed the room and sat.

There was a gasp as the light hit her face. Her right eye was bright and blinking, but her left was a greasy slit. Her skin had been burned moon-white. Her mouth was a sagging gash without lips or expression. Her military beret was pulled snug over a scarred and hairless scalp.

The old voice: 'Your name is Kaleen.' Kaleen nodded. 'You were the principal investigator of the Zariman?' Kaleen's voice was a jagged whisper, a rigid face. 'Yes.'

Kaleen coughed, straightened: 'The Zariman was lost making the fold from Saturn to the Outer gates. Mechanical failure. I notified families and filled a report with the inspectors. Nothing ever returns from the fold, so I closed the case.'

'But you reopened the case, days later.'

'I didn't believe it myself until I stepped aboard the ship. It was completely intact, full environmental, as if it had never left.'

'And the crew was gone.'

'Not exactly.' Kaleen hesitated. 'We thought it was empty but we began to find...' Her face twitched at remembered pain, 'We began to find children hiding in the ship.'

'And that is when you violated procedure?'

Kaleen bowed her head, a tear welling in her sightless eye. 'They were children. They were afraid. They needed comfort.'

'So you broke quarantine and this happened to you.'

There was silence as Kaleen touched her face, 'So what have you done with them?'

The old woman gestured for the officer to take Kaleen away. The meeting was over. When Kaleen reached the door she twisted out of his grip and shot back, 'Why would you do that? Why did you put children on military ship?'

'We didn't. That would violate procedure.'"

 

Specifically, look at that LAST line. "We didn't, That would violate procedure"

IF they're telling the truth there, then how did the children get onboard the ship? Of course we KNOW this is a lie, as from the Dialogue we have with the Lotus after the events of the Second Dream can potentially talk about WHY we were onboard. (If you chose the option "...a hand, held in mine aboard the Zariman." from the First dialogue choice): The soft lines of a hand. My mother's, I think. We were watching the stars, awaiting the jump to Tau. She was afraid.

Other dialogue options flesh out why we were going there, or at least what we were told, but looking back on the Ember Prime entry, we know we were put there on purpose. it's entirely possible that the Void Accident was MEANT to happen, to create MORE Tenno, Tenno that are young, easily impressionable, and more easily indoctrinated, and controlled than their counterparts encased in the Prime warframes. (Halo did the same thing, taking very young children to put through the Spartan program for almost the exact same reasons)

Edited January 23, 2016 by KiloFoxx

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

"We didn't. That would violate procedure."

 

I had always taken this to be a very coy jab at plausible deniability. I reached the same conclusion the first time I read the codex entry. The Zariman was no accident. Are you suggesting this wasn't the first batch? That Excalibur predates the Zariman? Interesting.

 

That's a little off-topic, though. While Valkyr could absolutely be Primed, the OP is correct in that her having the same powers would be ridiculous. Perhaps Valkyr will be the first Prime with variations on the normal frame's abilities?

 

Take a closer look at the end of the Second Dream.

 

We all assumed they were lifeless husks, but it wasn't the Lotus that saved us then and there, it was our Warframe when we had no control.

I didn't assume that. :P

Edited January 23, 2016 by (PS4)BlitzKeir

[KiloFoxx]

 

"We didn't. That would violate procedure."

 

I had always taken this to be a very coy jab at plausible deniability. I reached the same conclusion the first time I read the codex entry. The Zariman was no accident. Are you suggesting this wasn't the first batch? That Excalibur predates the Zariman? Interesting.

 

That's a little off-topic, though. While Valkyr could absolutely be Primed, the OP is correct in that her having the same powers would be ridiculous. Perhaps Valkyr will be the first Prime with variations on the normal frame's abilities?

 

I didn't assume that. :P

 

Yes, that is EXACTLY what I'm suggesting.

 

It's entirely possible that the Orokin were having trouble controlling the Warframe-encased Tenno I speculated (the Primes) and created the Zariman batch to control them through the Somatic Link. Finding out about this, the Tenno broke from the Orokin and exterminated them. Look at the Rhino Prime entry, the subjects are (at least to me) implied to be Orokin. and the Rhino doesn't SEEM to be under the same kind of control that we the players give to the Warframes. He's more Primal, ferocious. It's entirely possible the Codex lore Rhino Prime was a Tenno LITERALLY encased in the Warframe lashing out at the Orokin who put it there.

 

Regardless of ACTUAL lore, People, tenno or otherwise, being literally encased in Warframes WOULD explain a lot about them, including why say, all Embers are Female. All Excals are Male. et cetera. If there wasn't a person inside them, than why would the Warframes be built with needless Sex-defining characteristics? each one would be built almost the same and idea for its task. there'd be no need to build a Warframe to be Male or Female.

[Queen_Crimson]

 

"We didn't. That would violate procedure."

 

I had always taken this to be a very coy jab at plausible deniability. I reached the same conclusion the first time I read the codex entry. The Zariman was no accident. Are you suggesting this wasn't the first batch? That Excalibur predates the Zariman? Interesting.

 

That's a little off-topic, though. While Valkyr could absolutely be Primed, the OP is correct in that her having the same powers would be ridiculous. Perhaps Valkyr will be the first Prime with variations on the normal frame's abilities?

 

I didn't assume that. :P

 

I made a post but it got deleted for some reason.

 

I just realized that they don't mean that they didn't put the children on the ship, they very much did.

 

What they meant is that they didn't consider the children to be human, only weapons. That's why they were on a military ship.

[KiloFoxx]

I made a post but it got deleted for some reason.

 

I just realized that they don't mean that they didn't put the children on the ship, they very much did.

 

What they meant is that they didn't consider the children to be human, only weapons. That's why they were on a military ship.

Wasn't deleted on my screen, though it replied to me and was on Page 2.

That could very well be what they considered the Tenno Children, and is quite unsurprising for me given my prior posts on the topic.

[motorfirebox]

I always took that line as plausible deniability. 

[DarthValkyr]

Couldn't DE just write off her current origin as obsolete and create a new story like they did with various other descriptions? I see these plot holes myself, but will ignore them until I see new lore about her. The Gersemi did throw all of this out of loop.