Valkry And The New Event Melee Mods

[tecreno]

So i did some testing adn i found out that the new mods blood rush and body count dont carry over when you use hysteria. im thinking it  might bee a bug, but it might be intended if so can someone please tell me because i think it would be neat if it did because it would give that push valkry needs to be  end game material (she already was).

[Explo5ive]

So i did some testing adn i found out that the new mods blood rush and body count dont carry over when you use hysteria. im thinking it  might bee a bug, but it might be intended if so can someone please tell me because i think it would be neat if it did because it would give that push valkry needs to be  end game material (she already was).

 

Hysteria is already OP as hell

[Pizzarugi]

I wrote this in response to a similar complaint in the blood rush page on the wiki.

 

Look at a weapon like dual ichor. It's base damage is 35 toxin. If you put pressure point and spoiled strike on it, it gets 112 toxin. If it crits and you have a crit mod, it does 5.7x damage. That is 638.4 damage. With blood rush, you give it the possibility to red crit which is 10.4x damage. The red crit damage would be 1164.8.

Now compare that to Valkyr's hysteria. If you use steel charge, pressure point, spoiled strike, blind rage and intensify, her base damage escalates to 2090 before crits. With true steel, maxed Naramon Deadly Intent passive and organ shatter, she also gets 3.8x crit multi and 104% crit chance. That's 7942 damage from 100% crit. With 4% chance to red crit, she could potentially do 13794 per red crit.

If Valkyr was to take advantage of blood rush and/or body count, there's going to be even more outcries for nerfs. We don't want that, do we?

[Explo5ive]

 

I wrote this in response to a similar complaint in the blood rush page on the wiki.

 

 

 

If Valkyr was to take advantage of blood rush and/or body count, there's going to be even more outcries for nerfs. We don't want that, do we?

 

 

^This x10, there is no need for Valkyr to do more damage, can already destroy level 120+ enemies with ease

[PickleMonster21]

Hysteria is already OP as hell

But Hysteria scales off of melee mods, so your argument is invalid xD

[Tesseract7777]

Rebecca answered a question about this on Twitter, she stated that as of right now, it is intended that they do not work with Exalted abilities. Could that change in the future? Perhaps. DE has changed their minds before... but I wouldn't hold my breath. 

 

 

You admit yourself that Valkyr is already end game material. She's a strong frame. 

 

Someone once tried to tell me that Valkyr's damage falls off "quickly" and that it therefore NEEDS these new mods. When asked when it falls off (you know, what level, what types of enemy, what mission, how long this tenno was fighting before it "fell off") they responded that "the swipe damage falls off quickly". Which really didn't answer my question. Probably because the answer is that a well modded Valkyr can wipe the floor with absurdly high level enemies, and her damage is still going strong after most frames fell off HARD.

 

In my opinion though, while Valkyr doesn't NEED this. It does open an interesting debate up in terms of exalted abilities. Unique weapon mods not working makes perfect sense, but this cherry picking puts Tenno in a difficult situation. Not just in terms of game consistency and overall confusion about what should and shouldn't affect what, but it makes modding really tricky. 

 

Valkyr for example running a Life Strike is kind of a waste of a slot if you are going mostly hysteria, but what if your build is hybrid? It basically forces you to mod for either your melee or your frame, and not both. 

 

As some have suggested, the best solution may be to have them modded separately from your melee. They are unique melee weapons with their own stances and stats after all... 

Edited January 28, 2016 by Tesseract7777

[PickleMonster21]

If Valkyr was to take advantage of blood rush and/or body count, there's going to be even more outcries for nerfs. We don't want that, do we?

 

Like I said in my above post:

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Hysteria is already OP as hell

Nope.

Melee weapons are tho. Some other guy did some testing and i filled some gaps...take evrything into consideration and you're able to strike for 2M damage now. But hell....hyseria...omfg...just don't give valkyr what evryone else got...

[Gurpgork]

Nope.

Melee weapons are tho. Some other guy did some testing and i filled some gaps...take evrything into consideration and you're able to strike for 2M damage now. But hell....hyseria...omfg...just don't give valkyr what evryone else got...

We're talking about a melee weapon that can have up to 747.5 base damage and has a 50% crit chance. Those base stats are absolutely preposterous. War has the next highest base damage at less than one fifth of Hysteria's maximum base damage, with less than half the crit chance.

If what you said is true, and it's possible to hit for 2 million damage on a weapon that deals less than one fifth of the damage of Hysteria, then can you even imagine what kind of numbers you would be able to get out of Hysteria? We're talking about an ability that has astronomically better base stats than every other melee weapon in the game, and has the side effect of essentially removing death as a mechanic. We've seen what Blood Rush can do to the Dual Zorens. Blood Rush would make Hysteria absolutely apocalyptic. Saying that this other thing is overpowered is not a good reason to make something else beyond game breaking.

Not to mention that it would once again mean that there's no reason to ever not use Hysteria. At least right now there's a meaningful choice: god mode and huge damage, or no god mode and bigger damage?

Edited January 29, 2016 by Gurpgork

[Epsik-kun]

If what you said is true, and it's possible to hit for 2 million damage on a weapon that deals less than one fifth of the damage of Hysteria

Well you can't hit for 2 million damage, as he thought about potential bonus from channeling and stealth state, which aren't directly multiplicative with critical damage.

But you can do around 220k damage spin attack with Zorens (base spin damage 180, 25% crit chance, x3 base multiplier) on a combo-counter x4. If my calculations are even remotely correct, Valkyr with maxed power can achieve over 1kk~3kk spins.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Well you can't hit for 2 million damage, as he thought about potential bonus from channeling and stealth state, which aren't directly multiplicative with critical damage.

But you can do around 220k damage spin attack with Zorens (base spin damage 180, 25% crit chance, x3 base multiplier) on a combo-counter x4. If my calculations are even remotely correct, Valkyr with maxed power can achieve over 1kk~3kk spins.

I'm not entirely sure about channeling as it's definitly listed as multiplicator but stealth IS a 4x multiplicator which is directly multiplicative with melee (still waiting for the update to do some actuall testing >.> wiki entry: Stealth Melee Crit Damage = Weapon Damage × Crit Multiplier × Stealth Multiplier)

If both are then it's 2M, 1M if channeling is not. Even more as it's possibly 150%Basedamage x Crit x Stealth.

1-2 MILLION DAMAGE with ichors/cleavers. You guys realise how broken melee became right? But it would be broken for valkyr to get the same? Are you guys frickin serious? That's for slide attacks as special kind of dps... wanna talk about sustained dps with weapons that access stance multipliers? 1:1 valkyr on more range, more fluid stances, perma channeling to an extend... On frames with actuall use?

Denying her these mods is hypocracy at its finest...

Edited January 29, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Epsik-kun]

I'm not entirely sure about channeling as it's definitly listed as multiplicator but stealth IS a 4x multiplicator which is directly multiplicative with melee (still waiting for the update to do some actuall testing >.> wiki entry: Stealth Melee Crit Damage = Weapon Damage × Crit Multiplier × Stealth Multiplier)

If both are then it's 2M, 1M if channeling is not. Even more as it's possibly 150%Basedamage x Crit x Stealth.

Dude, I can't care less about what wiki states. I've done the testing and I know that:

1) Channeling damage boost isn't multiplicative to red critical hits;

2) Stealth damage boost isn't multiplicative to red critical hits either.

 

 

Zorens in the build I posted previously can do a 200k and 230k damage on Corrupted Ancient during with a spin on x4. Excal with RB can rise it to a little over 250k. RB with channel - almost 290k, but that's it.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Dude, I can't care less about what wiki states. I've done the testing and I know that:

1) Channeling damage boost isn't multiplicative to red critical hits;

2) Stealth damage boost isn't multiplicative to red critical hits either.

Zorens in the build I posted previously can do a 200k and 230k damage on Corrupted Ancient during with a spin on x4. Excal with RB can rise it to a little over 250k. RB with channel - almost 290k, but that's it.

Oh my, i'm sry. I didn't realise that you don't care about actuall numbers. What is it then? Fictional numbers which ignore the core problem here (i'm strongly assuming that you're abusing it in this moment) to put valkyr, or rather ONLY VALKYR into a bad light?

As i mentioned allready, hypocracy at its finest.

Edited January 29, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Gurpgork]

 

Oh my, i'm sry. I didn't realise that you don't care about actuall numbers. What is it then? Fictional numbers which ignore the core problem here (i'm strongly assuming that you're abusing it in this moment) to put valkyr, or rather ONLY VALKYR into a bad light?

As i mentioned allready, hypocracy at its finest.

 

That's a crit from Dual Zorens with a 4x combo multiplier and Radial Blind. I got the picture from this thread.

 

Those are actual numbers, they're coming from an in-game screenshot. What seems fictional is 2 million damage from a melee attack. Unless the target is affected by an augmented Blind, you're Chroma, and you hit them directly in a Sonar weak spot. 

 

And how does this put Valkyr in a bad light? Valkyr was an amazing frame, even before U17.5 when Hysteria became essentially one of the best abilities in the game (incredible damage and God Mode on the side). She's not suddenly a worse frame now that Blood Rush is out. If anything, she's better. Now Valkyr has a meaningful build choice beyond just spamming Hysteria, because that's not just objectively the best option anymore. Valkyr doesn't underperform. She didn't underperform before Shadow Debt, and she doesn't underperform after Shadow Debt. 

 

I don't even get your argument. You acknowledge how powerful these mods are, even said that they make melee broken, but think they should work on Hysteria, an ability that a large part of the community thinks is obscenely overpowered as it is? I don't follow your logic.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Gurpgork

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

That's a crit from Dual Zorens with a 4x combo multiplier and Radial Blind. I got the picture from this thread.

Those are actual numbers, they're coming from an in-game screenshot. What seems fictional is 2 million damage from a melee attack. Unless the target is affected by an augmented Blind, you're Chroma, and you hit them directly in a Sonar weak spot.

And how does this put Valkyr in a bad light? Valkyr was an amazing frame, even before U17.5 when Hysteria became essentially one of the best abilities in the game (incredible damage and God Mode on the side). She's not suddenly a worse frame now that Blood Rush is out. If anything, she's better. Now Valkyr has a meaningful build choice beyond just spamming Hysteria, because that's not just objectively the best option anymore. Valkyr doesn't underperform. She didn't underperform before Shadow Debt, and she doesn't underperform after Shadow Debt.

I don't even get your argument. You acknowledge how powerful these mods are, even said that they make melee broken, but think they should work on Hysteria, an ability that a large part of the community thinks is obscenely overpowered as it is? I don't follow your logic.

You're obviously fine with the mods but see a problem in implementing it on valkyr, don't worry pal, i don't get your logic eather.

[IggySnow]

just nerf her crit to 30%?

 

Honestly that would make her ultimate still really good on its own and would allow her to use the new mods without her becoming an all powerful goddess that can destroy anything in a single hit.

[Epsik-kun]

 

Oh my, i'm sry. I didn't realise that you don't care about actuall numbers.

You are right, I don't care about numbers. Unlike you who just fantasies about number with zero credibility, I know them. And I genuinely don't get why would you argue with someone who does all the testing, while you have no idea what are you talking about.

 

 

just nerf her crit to 30%?

 

Honestly that would make her ultimate still really good on its own and would allow her to use the new mods without her becoming an all powerful goddess that can destroy anything in a single hit.

Honestly, I don't think many people would appreciate nerfs to one of the more unique parts of her ultimate. People do not appreciate nerfs in general.

The core of the problem lies elsewhere. While spin attacks can be skyrocketed on pretty much any weapon, only naturally good crit-oriented weapons are suited for the current combo oriented critical build. And all these weapons (x3 multiplier, 20%+ crit chance) are happen to have really low base damage, with Dual Raza being the highest one with 48 base damage. Were you to go said build on these weapons, you will feel how strongly they underperform until you hit at least x2 multiplier - you'll have your spool-up time which naturally balances otherwise clearly superior build.

Hysteria (and EBlade too on that) has extreme amount of base damage, and while it doesn't have x3 multiplier, 50% critical chance compensates for that, And the problem is, you won't have that "spool-up time" part on Hysteria. Because save for the sorties, any mission you will jump in will have enemies that you'll one-shot even without multipliers working. And when it comes to you needing these multipliers, scaling will make the spawn rate sufficient enough for you to maintain the combo effortlessly. This build will have no downside on Valkyr - it will be clearly superior to every other build. Which I don't think what was intended by developers.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[IggySnow]

 

 

You are right, I don't care about numbers. Unlike you who just fantasies about number with zero credibility, I know them. And I genuinely don't get why would you argue with someone who does all the testing, while you have no idea what are you talking about.

 

 

Honestly, I don't think many people would appreciate nerfs to one of the more unique parts of her ultimate. People do not appreciate nerfs in general.

The core of the problem lies elsewhere. While spin attacks can be skyrocketed on pretty much any weapon, only naturally good crit-oriented weapons are suited for the current combo oriented critical build. And all these weapons (x3 multiplier, 20%+ crit chance) are happen to have really low base damage, with Dual Raza being the highest one with 48 base damage. Were you to go said build on these weapons, you will feel how strongly they underperform until you hit at least x2 multiplier - you'll have your spool-up time which naturally balances otherwise clearly superior build.

Hysteria (and EBlade too on that) has extreme amount of base damage, and while it doesn't have x3 multiplier, 50% critical chance compensates for that, And the problem is, you won't have that "spool-up time" part on Hysteria. Because save for the sorties, any mission you will jump in will have enemies that you'll one-shot even without multipliers working. And when it comes to you needing these multipliers, scaling will make the spawn rate sufficient enough for you to maintain the combo effortlessly. This build will have no downside on Valkyr (and arguably on Excal too) - it will be clearly superior to every other build. Which I don't think what was intended by developers.

 

Actually melees with 10% crit chance and x2 crit damage are theoretically worth using a crit builds for if you get to a x3 combo multiplier. I did the math and you get a 15-20% increase in raw DPS using a crit build instead of 3 elemental mods. And in my original calculations I accidentally assumed that the 3 elemental build mods build could get to x3 combo without body count so I gave it a little bit of a bonus :P

 

But that's not taking into account status procs so the 3 elemental mod build might have more killing potential. But still a 20% raw dps increase from a 10% x2 melee is pretty silly.

[Epsik-kun]

Actually melees with 10% crit chance and x2 crit damage are theoretically worth using a crit builds for if you get to a x3 combo multiplier. I did the math and you get a 15-20% increase in raw DPS using a crit build instead of 3 elemental mods. And in my original calculations I accidentally assumed that the 3 elemental build mods build could get to x3 combo without body count so I gave it a little bit of a bonus :P

 

But that's not taking into account status procs so the 3 elemental mod build might have more killing potential. But still a 20% raw dps increase from a 10% x2 melee is pretty silly.

Hm, I'm not sure about that, tbh. I just calculated average damage for x4 combo multiplier EBlade (15%/x2) doing this build and without using Maiming Strike (essentially calculating damage for regular strikes) will place damage per hit around around 50% higher over pure dps build on no combo multiplier, which means that simply using body count without going full critical build will outperform it dramatically at x4 multiplier. Aaand it seems I was just overestimating my EBlade damage. Yeah, I have to agree, Blood Rush oriented build outperforms pure damage + body count build.

 

However, you are losing on devastating critical hits EBlade can have (as all your damage is essentially critical now), Radial Blind stealth modifiers (which will go from x4 to around x2 I believe), stealth finishers (which simply don't crit), Berserker (unless you're willing to replace  an elemental mod or spoiled strike with it, leading to even lower damage per hit) and potentially Life Strike. So I'm still not sure how effective such build will be.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[IggySnow]

 

Hm, I'm not sure about that, tbh. I just calculated average damage for x4 combo multiplier EBlade (15%/x2) doing this build and without using Maiming Strike (essentially calculating damage for regular strikes) will place damage per hit around around 50% higher over pure dps build on no combo multiplier, which means that simply using body count without going full critical build will outperform it dramatically at x3 multiplier. Also, you are losing on devastating critical hits EBlade can have (as all your damage is essentially critical now), Radial Blind stealth modifiers (which will go from x4 to around x2 I believe), stealth finishers (which simply don't crit) and Berserker (unless you're willing to replace  an elemental mod or spoiled strike with it, leading to even lower damage per hit)

However I didn't thoroughly calculated all possible variants, so I can't say for sure yet.

 

I did my calculations using a maxed crit build and a maxed DPS build.

the crit build was true steel, berserker, fury, blood rush, body count, organ shatter, pressure point and a 90% elemental mod.

and the DPS was pressure point, 3 elemental mods, fury, berserker, spoiled strike, and true steel.

 

And I made the berserker mod give its max 75% attack speed

[Epsik-kun]

I did my calculations using a maxed crit build and a maxed DPS build.

the crit build was true steel, berserker, fury, blood rush, body count, organ shatter, pressure point and a 90% elemental mod.

and the DPS was pressure point, 3 elemental mods, fury, berserker, spoiled strike, and true steel.

 

And I made the berserker mod give its max 75% attack speed

Yeah, I edited the message after doing some calculations. I believe, using Spoiled Strike instead of Fury will make the damage difference even higher.

In DPS build using 4th 90% elemental mod instead of True Steel will result in some increase of dps (as 10% is enough to consistently proc Berserker), but not enough to outperform crit-build.

[IggySnow]

Yeah, I edited the message after doing some calculations. I believe, using Spoiled Strike instead of Fury will make the damage difference even higher.

In DPS build using 4th 90% elemental mod instead of True Steel will result in some increase of dps (as 10% is enough to consistently proc Berserker), but not enough to outperform crit-build.

im not sure but I think I read on the wiki that the more elemental mods you add the less damage they actually do? or like the 3rd mod does less damage, and the forth does even less, idk.

 

ether way its crazy that a 10% crit chance weapon is more oriented to a crit build than dps.

[Epsik-kun]

im not sure but I think I read on the wiki that the more elemental mods you add the less damage they actually do? or like the 3rd mod does less damage, and the forth does even less, idk.

 

ether way its crazy that a 10% crit chance weapon is more oriented to a crit build than dps.

Yeah, it works that way, but the dps increase of 4th 90% elemental after taking Berserker bonus into an account will still be higher than what Fury provides. Primed Fury would provide higher dps increase.

 

Well, sustaining x3 on any mission other than Survival requires some efforts. But I have to agree, it might need some tweaking.

[SonicSonedit]

Hysteria is already OP as hell

 

 

I wrote this in response to a similar complaint in the blood rush page on the wiki.

 

 

 

If Valkyr was to take advantage of blood rush and/or body count, there's going to be even more outcries for nerfs. We don't want that, do we?

 

 

^This x10, there is no need for Valkyr to do more damage, can already destroy level 120+ enemies with ease

Funny thing - Mirage is much more OP with any top tier weapon. Current event just shown how useless Valkyr is.

 

 

 

Rebecca answered a question about this on Twitter, she stated that as of right now, it is intended that they do not work with Exalted abilities. Could that change in the future? Perhaps. DE has changed their minds before... but I wouldn't hold my breath. 

 

 

You admit yourself that Valkyr is already end game material. She's a strong frame. 

 

Someone once tried to tell me that Valkyr's damage falls off "quickly" and that it therefore NEEDS these new mods. When asked when it falls off (you know, what level, what types of enemy, what mission, how long this tenno was fighting before it "fell off") they responded that "the swipe damage falls off quickly". Which really didn't answer my question. Probably because the answer is that a well modded Valkyr can wipe the floor with absurdly high level enemies, and her damage is still going strong after most frames fell off HARD.

 

In my opinion though, while Valkyr doesn't NEED this. It does open an interesting debate up in terms of exalted abilities. Unique weapon mods not working makes perfect sense, but this cherry picking puts Tenno in a difficult situation. Not just in terms of game consistency and overall confusion about what should and shouldn't affect what, but it makes modding really tricky. 

 

Valkyr for example running a Life Strike is kind of a waste of a slot if you are going mostly hysteria, but what if your build is hybrid? It basically forces you to mod for either your melee or your frame, and not both. 

 

As some have suggested, the best solution may be to have them modded separately from your melee. They are unique melee weapons with their own stances and stats after all... 

 

300% power Valkyr with Atterax falls behind after 30 min in T4 surv and after 40 in T3 surv unless you run a full CP squad. This is quite low. Loki, Mirage, Ash can carry much longer than this without CP. And with CP they can do even better...In fact, with CP even Ember can faceroll up to 60 minutes.

Even so, melee-only restrition itself is quite a big drawback of ability. Compare to Excal's ult for a bit.

Edited January 31, 2016 by SonicSonedit

[Epsik-kun]

300% power Valkyr with Atterax falls behind after 30 min in T4 surv and after 40 in T3 surv unless you run a full CP squad. This is quite low. Loki, Mirage, Ash can carry much longer than this without CP. And with CP they can do even better...In fact, with CP even Ember can faceroll up to 60 minutes.

Even so, melee-only restrition itself is quite a big drawback of ability. Compare to Excal's ult for a bit.

That isn't true. No-CP Excalibur can solo over a hour of T4S without using any capsules for around 40 minutes of it, I believe. After these 40 minutes you have to go into close combat, as waves just won't be enough anymore. And Valkyr has much higher close combat DPS, than Excalibur, so I can't see her "falling behind" after 30 minutes of T4S, when Excal doesn't.

More to it, only few warframes in the game can be as effective as Valkyr at enemy levels going higher than 80.