Tonkor and self damage

[Magneu]

Inb4 Tonkor defenders.

 

Seriously though, the Tonkor is too much of an outlier. Even the Synoid Simulor falls off due to pushing enemies backwards out of the blast radius, but the Tonkor is easily the strongest single target weapon in the game...with the added bonus of having a large AOE radius, where distance doesn't diminish damage. It's even hyper ammo efficient, with almost zero self risk (50 shield damage, oh no...). I either see people lobbing shots into armies that suddenly vaporize over level 100, or pointblanking heavies and OHKO on them (run almost any frame, dodge up to heavy, *LMB* enemy deleted). 

Granted, it may be that old bug with AOE damage always doing headshots, and given the crit nature of the Tonkor, it leads to massive damage.

I really like Hawttdawgg's idea, where if you miss, the grenade simply fizzles out. Would make the Tonkor actually skill based, instead of the general direction spam-fest it currently is. On the topic of self-damage, I don't really know...too much self damage would make the weapon too punishing, but as is, the paltry self damage is a meaningless downside. 

I really hope DE looks at the stats on used weapons; I'm willing to bet for players above MR5, it is easily over 50% used. I've seen way too many people with less that 15 days play time that have the Tonkor as one of maybe 15 primaries, and 97% usage on it. So much for weapon diversity.

 

EDIT: Oh yeah. It apparently counts as an assault rifle for sorties. Neat.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Magneu

[Kungpaobeef]

On 2/23/2016 at 10:02 AM, PsychoDraugr said:

i'm one of those "scrubs" that just likes to actually have "fun" in a game, because isn't that what a game is for? you have the ogris, the penta, the klustrar, all of them can kill you and all of them have dif features, then why would you like to nerf something that takes so long to reload and nothing to empty the magazine besides not having an actual crossair, the tonkor is hard enough to use and you want us to get killed after spending half mission reloading despite having a reload mod? hell nah, there's things that shouldn't be touched because they're good as they are

Sorry, my bad for your "concerns" and "difficulties" in using a weapon that can effectively annihilate large squads enemies in a single shot. I'm sorry that the tonkor has a higher max ammo pool than the other launchers and that it fires two(3-4 with split chamber) EXTREMELY high damaging grenades in a short span of time while the ogris has to charge the rockets and the penta has a much slower fire rate. I'm sorry that you complain about the little dotted line you get while aiming that shows you where your grenades will land and I'm sorry that the tonkor completely out performs all the other launcher type weapons while dealing almost no damage to the user. Please don't nerf this weapon, because the other weapons are far too powerful compared to this mini nuke launcher. 

[Yes, I do have a forma'd and potatoed tonkor, but I feel that it's extremely unfair to my potatoed and forma'd ogris that one shots me if a rocket detonates within 5 meters of me and that it deals far less damage than the tonkor. And technically, the tonkor fires projectiles per minute than the ogris.]

Dude, stop complaining when you're using one of the most powerful weapons in the game with almost no negative drawbacks on it. 

[ClinkzEastwood]

Tonkor is hard to use

XD

[DarcnyssWolfe]

I second OP for this nerf/buff, which ever it may end up being. Either bring tonkor in line with other aoe, lower self-damage to tonkor levels (flat 50 if I'm not mistaken) or simply remove self damage entirely.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

On February 23, 2016 at 10:49 AM, EDYinnit said:

No, the Tonkor should be balanced down from where it is now because it does over ten times the damage of its counterparts while having effectively zero comparitive risk.

Who needs bullets when you can just hold a grenade in your teeth like a romantic's rose and kiss the nearest Heavy Gunner to instantly annihilate them while all you get is a bit of debris bouncing off your shields?

 

There's a middle ground between no selfdamage and suicidal selfdamage. That's where all explosive weapons need to stand. Don't kill yourself if you get so much as grazed by the edge of your blast radius, but feel like you made a mistake if you're at the epicentre.

The whole 'lol rocket jumping' excuse falls flat when you realise that explosive-propelled jumping as a mechanic elsewhere still has risk/reward most of the time. Look what's on the first page of Google results!

Amazing.

 

Riiiiiiiight. So why bother have enemies shoot at you when you will practically kill yourself? You do realize this game is a horde shooter right? Self Damaging yourself is fine in TF2 cause there are health packs everywhere as well as different items that can heal you as well as a whole class dedicated to healing.

 

Rocket Jump to kill somebody? You can heal yourself with a black box or by grabbing a medkit. Warframe is a horde shooter. Doing any amount of self damage to kill enemies is stupid as new enemies will spawn after you kill the last guys. The tonkor was made to be a fun weapon and having the jump is fun. With bullet jumping costing a whopping 0 health per jump, it would be ruin people's fun if it took away half their health everytime they made a jump.

 

You can reduce self damage of all explosive weapons as much as you want. I don't see bombards or napalms damaging themselves as they shoot my chroma at point blank. Why should our explosive weapons hurt us? But don't ruin somebody else's fun

 

(tonkor also doesn't even do that much damage until you put a significant amount of forma into it. A Penta does more (base) damage while being 100% accurate with a larger clip and offers more control then a tonkor. You miss both shots with the tonkor's low accuracy? You are out of luck with a slow reload speed. You miss both shots with a perfectly accurate penta? (really? How?) you can still detonate the bombs whenever you like, and you have 3 more shots. The Penta and the tonkor do around the same amount of damage when they have the same amount of forma in them. ( A 0 forma secura penta will outdamage a 0 forma tonkor. A 5 forma-ed penta will do the same damage per second as a tonkor or even more as a penta is difficult to miss shots with.) 

I'm all for removing self damage but the tonkor is fine where it is. It already has too many flaws ( trash accuracy, tiny magazine, long reload, and forced into a crit build for damage)

 

[(PSN)rengence]

In this situation don't apply real life logic to ingame logic. 

[srlhama]

I hate the way DE made this weapon, and even more it be MASTERY FIVE, while Penta is 6...

It is so overpower, everyone knows it but they inssisti (?) against facts and numbers...

This weapon make me play solo much more than before it...

[TheLexiConArtist]

13 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Riiiiiiiight. So why bother have enemies shoot at you when you will practically kill yourself? You do realize this game is a horde shooter right? Self Damaging yourself is fine in TF2 cause there are health packs everywhere as well as different items that can heal you as well as a whole class dedicated to healing.

 

Rocket Jump to kill somebody? You can heal yourself with a black box or by grabbing a medkit. Warframe is a horde shooter. Doing any amount of self damage to kill enemies is stupid as new enemies will spawn after you kill the last guys. The tonkor was made to be a fun weapon and having the jump is fun. With bullet jumping costing a whopping 0 health per jump, it would be ruin people's fun if it took away half their health everytime they made a jump.

 

You can reduce self damage of all explosive weapons as much as you want. I don't see bombards or napalms damaging themselves as they shoot my chroma at point blank. Why should our explosive weapons hurt us? But don't ruin somebody else's fun

 

(tonkor also doesn't even do that much damage until you put a significant amount of forma into it. A Penta does more (base) damage while being 100% accurate with a larger clip and offers more control then a tonkor. You miss both shots with the tonkor's low accuracy? You are out of luck with a slow reload speed. You miss both shots with a perfectly accurate penta? (really? How?) you can still detonate the bombs whenever you like, and you have 3 more shots. The Penta and the tonkor do around the same amount of damage when they have the same amount of forma in them. ( A 0 forma secura penta will outdamage a 0 forma tonkor. A 5 forma-ed penta will do the same damage per second as a tonkor or even more as a penta is difficult to miss shots with.) 

I'm all for removing self damage but the tonkor is fine where it is. It already has too many flaws ( trash accuracy, tiny magazine, long reload, and forced into a crit build for damage)

Tonkor apologist ITT.

 

Rocket jumps aren't for killing, they're for repositioning. Note the image I pulled from first Google page. Distance worth Damage. Parkour already covers more ground faster and easier anyway, the whole "Tonkor lets you grenade jump" is a thin excuse for not having self damage.

Funnily enough, TF2 has no-damage jump weapons too. They just don't hurt anyone. No risk? No reward. Games are driven on risk and reward.

The point of using explosive ordnance is having the common sense not to hit yourself with the backlash, like every other player-wielded example in Warframe other than the Tonkor and (arguably) Simulors.

 

Sure the Bombards don't friendly fire, or self-damage, but since when do enemies follow our rules? They use the same visual models as weapons we have available, but that doesn't mean they are actually using that weapon mechanically. My Ogris rockets don't home in on targets.

 

The Tonkor's "bad accuracy"? You have a tracer line showing you where it goes. Bad base damage? You have 25% more base crit chance than a Penta... which deals double the base crit multiplier because explosions mostly always headshot. Secura Penta deals 750 on an autoheadshot enemy with a 10% chance of dealing an additional 2250 (+100% for crit, *2 for crit headshot). Average: 1000 damage. Tonkor deals 650 on an autoheadshot enemy with a 35% chance of dealing an additional 2600 (+150% for crit, *2 for crit headshot). Average: 1560 damage.

Crit builds always outstrip straight damage because you multiply mod damage as well. Serration in a 0% crit weapon is worth +165% damage. Serration in 100% crit is worth at least +330%. Add crit damage multipliers above 2x to that and it gets even more disparate.

Because the Tonkor uses a crit build, it effectively deals 10 times as much damage at peak build as its counterparts, with no risk to the user.

 

Your arguments are flawed to a fault.

Edited February 27, 2016 by EDYinnit
edit for proof

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

8 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Tonkor apologist ITT.

 

Rocket jumps aren't for killing, they're for repositioning. Note the image I pulled from first Google page. Distance worth Damage. Parkour already covers more ground faster and easier anyway, the whole "Tonkor lets you grenade jump" is a thin excuse for not having self damage.

Funnily enough, TF2 has no-damage jump weapons too. They just don't hurt anyone. No risk? No reward. Games are driven on risk and reward.

The point of using explosive ordnance is having the common sense not to hit yourself with the backlash, like every other player-wielded example in Warframe other than the Tonkor and (arguably) Simulors.

 

Sure the Bombards don't friendly fire, or self-damage, but since when do enemies follow our rules? They use the same visual models as weapons we have available, but that doesn't mean they are actually using that weapon mechanically. My Ogris rockets don't home in on targets.

 

The Tonkor's "bad accuracy"? You have a tracer line showing you where it goes. Bad base damage? You have 25% more base crit chance than a Penta... which deals double the base crit multiplier because explosions mostly always headshot. Secura Penta deals 750 on an autoheadshot enemy with a 10% chance of dealing an additional 2250 (+100% for crit, *2 for crit headshot). Average: 1000 damage. Tonkor deals 650 on an autoheadshot enemy with a 35% chance of dealing an additional 2600 (+150% for crit, *2 for crit headshot). Average: 1560 damage.

Crit builds always outstrip straight damage because you multiply mod damage as well. Serration in a 0% crit weapon is worth +165% damage. Serration in 100% crit is worth at least +330%. Add crit damage multipliers above 2x to that and it gets even more disparate.

Because the Tonkor uses a crit build, it effectively deals 10 times as much damage at peak build as its counterparts, with no risk to the user.

 

Your arguments are flawed to a fault.

 

Have you ever used the liberty launcher in tf2? Its a gun based entirely around rocket jumping, And guess what? It still deals damage to enemies.

 

The tonkor came before Parkour 2.0 so your points are invalid as the tonkor was an actual bullet jump, Or a grenade jump. The Line telling you where the grenages go are a rough estimate as the accuracy on the gun is absolute trash. You actually watch where the grenades go and they just go in the general direction.

Tonkor vs secura penta

Tonkor Low accuracy vs penta perfect accuracy

Tonkors 2 mag clip vs pentas 7 round clip

Tonkor grenades can miss an entire target completely and do no damage vs the pentas press secondary fire to detonate so even if you miss you can still kill people

Tonkor's 325 damage vs Pentas 375

The penta being a crit weapon loses modding options. You can easily put every mod you could want on a penta.

 

Tonkor is the vectis prime of launchers. If you hit and if you crit you do a lot of damage. The Penta does roughly the same damage per second but isn't as ammo efficient. A Penta's 7 slot magazine and base damage gives it the edge over the tonkor as you get over 3x the shots as a tonkor. Every shot is almost guaranteed to hit an enemy if you have multishot on as you can detonate the grenades whenever you want without worrying about missing. Oh and you can land headshots much easier using the penta. On console the tonkor almost never headshots while the penta headshots constantly if you detonate it before it hits the ground

 

So go ahead and ignore how the penta is equally as good as the tonkor and better in everyway except for crit damage. The damage a tonkor deals in self damage is worth the distance as the main point of the game is killing as many enemies as possible. I can bullet glide to reposition myself for 0 self damage. In Tf2 rocket jumping is an alternative means of killing people which is something you don't understand. People rocket jump to move around and there is no other way to make that kind of mobility fair in a PvP game ( Try conclave out, Hope the enemy team continually bullet jumps away from you). The tonkor on the other hand is just for fun at this point as no distance is worth the damage with parkour 2.0.

 

If you are killing yourself with a penta... Might I recommend getting good? If you think the tonkor is op i suggest you try putting a forma or 2 on the simulor/penta

[TheLexiConArtist]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Have you ever used the liberty launcher in tf2? Its a gun based entirely around rocket jumping, And guess what? It still deals damage to enemies.

It still deals damage to yourself, albeit lower. It deals less damage to enemies than the basic Launcher, funnily enough, directly correlating with the reduction in selfdamage. Imagine that. Risk reduced, reward reduced.

The tonkor came before Parkour 2.0 so your points are invalid as the tonkor was an actual bullet jump, Or a grenade jump. The Line telling you where the grenages go are a rough estimate as the accuracy on the gun is absolute trash. You actually watch where the grenades go and they just go in the general direction.

The Tonkor came out in U16.4, at which point Parkour 2.0 was already well into development for its U17 release. Irrelevant. 3 months of grenade jumping before it became unnecessary is not worth the complete obsolescence of all other launchers.

Tonkor vs secura penta

Tonkor Low accuracy vs penta perfect accuracy

Tonkors 2 mag clip vs pentas 7 round clip

Tonkor grenades can miss an entire target completely and do no damage vs the pentas press secondary fire to detonate so even if you miss you can still kill people

Tonkor grenades still exist when they miss. They're not as reliable as the Penta manual detonation, but it's not like they despawn on contact with a surface.

If the accuracy is so bad, why do I see people throwing Heavy Cal on Tonkors? Surely an already terrible inaccurate weapon could not stand being reduced even further in such a way.

Tonkor's 325 damage vs Pentas 375

The penta tonkor being a crit weapon loses modding options. You can easily put every mod you could want on a penta.

 

Tonkor is the vectis prime of launchers. If you hit and if you crit you do a lot of damage. The Penta does roughly the same damage per second but isn't as ammo efficient. A Penta's 7 slot magazine and base damage gives it the edge over the tonkor as you get over 3x the shots as a tonkor. Every shot is almost guaranteed to hit an enemy if you have multishot on as you can detonate the grenades whenever you want without worrying about missing. Oh and you can land headshots much easier using the penta. On console the tonkor almost never headshots while the penta headshots constantly if you detonate it before it hits the ground

If you hit, which you likely will with an aim guide, and if you crit.. which you will. Point Strike and Argon Scope (or even just Crit Delay) gives you >100% crit chance.

Every shot is a headshot anyway, at the very least on humanoid targets. Unmodded Tonkor already deals more damage as I proved. Crit mods amplify all other damage mods on a weapon. What 'every mod you want' are you even talking about? Your extra mods fitted to the Penta are probably going to be additional elemental damage anyway... and still won't come close to matching the Tonkor thanks to headshot-crits (5x damage baseline).

Don't forget that the Penta doesn't play too nicely with multishot either, if you're laying them down as traps. Tonkor doesn't care.

 

So go ahead and ignore how the penta is equally as good as the tonkor and better in everyway except for crit damage. The damage a tonkor deals in self damage is worth the distance as the main point of the game is killing as many enemies as possible. I can bullet glide to reposition myself for 0 self damage. In Tf2 rocket jumping is an alternative means of killing people which is something you don't understand. People rocket jump to move around and there is no other way to make that kind of mobility fair in a PvP game ( Try conclave out, Hope the enemy team continually bullet jumps away from you). The tonkor on the other hand is just for fun at this point as no distance is worth the damage with parkour 2.0

Ad nauseum in defiance of all the evidence. Crit damage makes all the difference, especially when you're doubling it thanks to headshots. What does it matter that you have 250% extra shots per reload when it takes you 3 times as many to actually kill your target and becomes useless when the target is close? What does it matter that you're better in every way but crit damage when it makes everything else more effective?

165% Serration becomes 412.5% on base crit damage multiplier. Add Vital Sense and it's now 907.5%, with Point Strike you're hitting that 87.5% of the time instead of 35%. 87.5% of the difference between noncrit and crit (742.5%) is 649.6875%. Please tell me what two mods you're using on the Penta that give you just shy of 650% additional damage, because I want them. That doesn't even account for the double crit headshotting. What two mods plus Serration give you 1300% damage?

I wouldn't even mind so much if you could crit yourself with that flat damage. It'd still pale in comparison to every other launcher's self damage capacity, but at least you'd eat something a little more appropriate than 50 damage. 125 normally, 275 with Vital Sense.. hey, maybe you might stop cuddling up to your targets.

 

If you are killing yourself with a penta... Might I recommend getting good? If you think the tonkor is op i suggest you try putting a forma or 2 on the simulor/penta

Nice ad hominem bro.

I have a hilarious Ogris build with Ivara Navigator that I use if I'm feeling bored enough. 15* damage Ogris rockets that I can make not annihilate me? It's almost as good as a Tonkor without any warframe power augmenting it.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

On February 28, 2016 at 7:51 PM, EDYinnit said:

-snip-

 

Im on console and so i can only speculate on what it is like with crit mods. 

 

But on console, the tonkor rarely ever headshots, (99% of the time its bodyshots as the afore mentioned terrible accuracy even with the "display" can send the grenades in crazy trajectories. 

 

The penta can always headshot reliably as long as you detonate it above somebody. The tonkor can miss every shot unless the enemies are standing in a line before you. The only reliable way to use the tonkor is with a zephyr build and its more of a rocket launcher then. Then Tonkor has 2 shots that can always miss. I have a small question for you. How much forma does it take for a tonkor to do its full damage potential? seven? So the tonkor has 2 shots that can miss versus every other launcher in the game being relatively easy to hit. I can fire a shot of a secura penta detonate it above a mob's head and headshot every single one. The tonkor will be a body shot the entire time. 

Tell me what does more damage? 2 body shots of a tonkor? or 7 headshots of a penta? 

 

If you want I can show you real footage of how bad a tonkor's accuracy is vs the perfect accuracy of a penta. 

 

The Liberty Launcher shoots rockets faster then the ordinary rocket launcher, and has an extra rocket. Even if it deals reduced damage, its compensated for it with faster projectile speed and an extra rocket so its easier to hit enemies and you have an extra shot. It only does 20 less damage per clip.

The tonkor on the other hand has the smallest clip size, The worst accuracy and has the least amount of control out of all the launcher weapons. 

I haven't ever seen anyone miss with an ogris or a torid or any of the other weapons. But the tonkor...

The Tonkor will only hit an enemy with a direct hit if it hits the player model. This can result in the grenades bouncing between enemy legs. --- This is something that happens so often that any serious tonkor user will tell you that 30-50% of grenades fired will go nowhere near an enemy or will fizzle out between their legs. Unless you are stationary firing at a cryopod without moving, You will not consistently hit enemies. Any mission other than a defense, You will quickly see this weapons shortcomings compared to another weapon

 

Particularly the terrible accuracy and how punishing missing one or both of your two shots can be. Most other launcher weapons spend the majority of their time firing and killing enemies. The tonkor spends most of its time between the feet of your enemy and reloading. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

But on console, the tonkor rarely ever headshots, (99% of the time its bodyshots as the afore mentioned terrible accuracy even with the "display" can send the grenades in crazy trajectories.

The penta can always headshot reliably as long as you detonate it above somebody. The tonkor can miss every shot unless the enemies are standing in a line before you. The only reliable way to use the tonkor is with a zephyr build and its more of a rocket launcher then. Then Tonkor has 2 shots that can always miss. I have a small question for you. How much forma does it take for a tonkor to do its full damage potential? seven? So the tonkor has 2 shots that can miss versus every other launcher in the game being relatively easy to hit. I can fire a shot of a secura penta detonate it above a mob's head and headshot every single one. The tonkor will be a body shot the entire time. 

Tell me what does more damage? 2 body shots of a tonkor? or 7 headshots of a penta? 

Does console lack the autoheadshot tendency we have on PC? That's news to me. If you could pop into your local Simulacrum and show yourself bodyshotting a few Volatile Runner units with your Tonkor unmodded with roughly 325 damage being the result that'd be grand. That 'orange mist' screenshot earlier in the thread is me doing just that, you can see how the unmodded Tonkor did 650 damage with no crit (2x base blast of 325) and 5x that value on critting (2x base damage = 650, 2.5x crit multiplier doubled on headshots = 5*650 =  3250) due to auto headshot.

I sure as hell didn't aim that perfectly for all those headshots and no bodyshots.

 

So yeah, an unmodded Tonkor outdamages an unmodded Secura Penta, shot for shot.

Quote

If you want I can show you real footage of how bad a tonkor's accuracy is vs the perfect accuracy of a penta.

Please do. I took it into the simulacrum again, and while I'll grant you it doesn't precisely follow the aim guide all the time, it wasn't even one average enemy model width off, except for very rare edge cases with Heavy Cal slotted.

Quote

-liberty lawnchair-

LibLaun makes it easier to hit enemies with a better projectile speed. As a result of decreasing the risk (with regards to self damage and likelihood of hitting) the reward is reduced.

You're not drawing any conclusions in support of your argument.

It's been a long time since I played TF2, but let's not forget the fact that it's part of a set - other than having an increased reliability of hitting while you're on the move, thanks to travel speed, there's nothing about the Liberty Launcher itself that benefits from rocket jumping. That's what the other set items were for. Wasn't there a shovel that auto-critted if you were airborne that went with it? That is benefitting from a rocket jump.

Quote

The tonkor on the other hand has the smallest clip size, The worst accuracy and has the least amount of control out of all the launcher weapons. 

I haven't ever seen anyone miss with an ogris or a torid or any of the other weapons. But the tonkor...

The Tonkor will only hit an enemy with a direct hit if it hits the player model. This can result in the grenades bouncing between enemy legs. --- This is something that happens so often that any serious tonkor user will tell you that 30-50% of grenades fired will go nowhere near an enemy or will fizzle out between their legs. Unless you are stationary firing at a cryopod without moving, You will not consistently hit enemies. Any mission other than a defense, You will quickly see this weapons shortcomings compared to another weapon

 

Particularly the terrible accuracy and how punishing missing one or both of your two shots can be. Most other launcher weapons spend the majority of their time firing and killing enemies. The tonkor spends most of its time between the feet of your enemy and reloading.

Funnily enough, any explosive projectile will only "hit with a direct hit" if it directly hits the enemy model. Imagine that.

Penta grenades don't automatically explode when they hit the floor. Yes, you get to manually detonate them, but that still gives chance for an enemy to run outside the blast radius.

 

Least control?

Ogris and Angstrum need to charge, Angstrum spreads enormously. Kulstar's damage comes mainly from clusterbombs that can be awkward to accumulate onto desired targets, spreads the damage over an area mostly. Talons and Penta have a maximum number of payloads you can have on the field to be triggered at once.

Most of all, EVERY other explosive weapon requires you to be careful where you aim or detonate. Because it has a risk. Tonkor allows you to YOLO up to your enemies with no worries at all.

Plus, Tonkor grenades don't "fizzle" when they miss. They continue to exist and explode a few seconds later. Or when stepped on.

 

At least 60% of Tonkor grenades closely follow the aim guide enough to be a reliable hit, according to my long-range bouncing of grenades off Simulacrum pillars until I ran the ammo dry. Split Chamber gives you 90% multishot.

0.6 * 1.9 = an average of 114% chance of being able to hit the aim-guided point with any given trigger pull.

 

Perhaps you're just not as good at aiming as you think you are?

Edited March 1, 2016 by EDYinnit
autoformatting please stahp

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

 

Perhaps you're just not as good at aiming as you think you are?

 

Says the guys who can miss with an angstrum, If you want concentrated fire don't hold the trigger, Just press it and it has perfect accuracy. The penta is super easy too. You aim slightly upward, You fire, you watch your grenade fly above the enemy and you detonate. 

 

Considering I play conclave with a sniper rifle, I don't think you know how to aim unless something tells you exactly where it'll go

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Says the guys who can miss with an angstrum, If you want concentrated fire don't hold the trigger, Just press it and it has perfect accuracy. The penta is super easy too. You aim slightly upward, You fire, you watch your grenade fly above the enemy and you detonate.

Multishot is a thing that exists. Once you put on your mandatory for optimal damage output multishot on, even a single-ammo fire is equivalent to a 2-ammo, sometimes the full 3-ammo charge of the naked weapon.

_{The statically generated spread of the Angstrum firing multiple payloads is another balance point.}

 

Penta, you fire, watch your grenade fly, then detonate it at the right time. Then you fire again. Unless you're carpeting for enemies that aren't yet present.

Tonkor, you fire, you fire, you reload, you fire, you fire, you reload. You don't have to take the time out to carefully pop your 'nades at the right moment.

Considering I play conclave with a sniper rifle, I don't think you know how to aim unless something tells you exactly where it'll go

Interesting choice of words. Anyone can play Conclave with a sniper rifle. Performing well with it is another statement entirely. _{I don't know why you'd do that to yourself with the always-suboptimal analog stick aiming but sure.}

Nice to see you got defensive and resorted to ad hominem again though.

For what it's worth, I use the Dread 90% of the time. Not even got the benefit of snipers (besides Lanka) being hitscan.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

2 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Multishot is a thing that exists. Once you put on your mandatory for optimal damage output multishot on, even a single-ammo fire is equivalent to a 2-ammo, sometimes the full 3-ammo charge of the naked weapon.

_{The statically generated spread of the Angstrum firing multiple payloads is another balance point.}

 

Penta, you fire, watch your grenade fly, then detonate it at the right time. Then you fire again. Unless you're carpeting for enemies that aren't yet present.

Tonkor, you fire, you fire, you reload, you fire, you fire, you reload. You don't have to take the time out to carefully pop your 'nades at the right moment.

Interesting choice of words. Anyone can play Conclave with a sniper rifle. Performing well with it is another statement entirely. _{I don't know why you'd do that to yourself with the always-suboptimal analog stick aiming but sure.}

Nice to see you got defensive and resorted to ad hominem again though.

For what it's worth, I use the Dread 90% of the time. Not even got the benefit of snipers (besides Lanka) being hitscan.

 

Im aware of how the angstrum works, If you want concentrated fire, you'll fire one at a time, You'll get the same amount of rockets if you fire it normally with less spread. 

All you need to do for a penta is detonate it a moment after you fire it. You'll hit anything in range. The tonkor has no feature of either and has a long fuse time. And the least amount of control. 

The tonkor requires a direct body shot, Has 12 accuracy compared the penta's 100 and is very bouncy.

If the penta is too difficulty for you, you can always equip the firestorm mod. The penta has plenty of mod room for it.

[Magneu]

On 3/1/2016 at 11:08 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

 

Im aware of how the angstrum works, If you want concentrated fire, you'll fire one at a time, You'll get the same amount of rockets if you fire it normally with less spread. 

All you need to do for a penta is detonate it a moment after you fire it. You'll hit anything in range. The tonkor has no feature of either and has a long fuse time. And the least amount of control. 

The tonkor requires a direct body shot, Has 12 accuracy compared the penta's 100 and is very bouncy.

If the penta is too difficulty for you, you can always equip the firestorm mod. The penta has plenty of mod room for it.

Been reading your exchange with EDY, and wanted to pop in stating that accuracy on a weapon means absolutely nothing in regards to other weapons. Each weapon's accuracy stat is completely different from another's.

 

Also, your repeated usage of ad hominem attacks, dodging questions, and using TF2 red herrings is really kind of sad. 

How about a conclusive test? Go make a build on Secura Penta that you like, go take it and test it against the highest level Gunner you can spawn.Use whatever CC power you like, just get us damage numbers. 

Then, take a build on the Tonkor (shoe-horned into building crit, the single best stat to build into) show us the build, and do the same. I guarantee the Tonkor will absolutely obliterate the Secura Penta. Even if the Secura Penta has the advantage of slightly higher explosive radius, Sequence effect, and possible dual elements, none of that really matters when the Tonkor has already wiped that entire army ahead of you and the user is halfway to the next tile.

 

The only major downside of the Tonkor I can think of is weakness to nullifiers..except that when the grenade comes to a rest, the nullie can walk over it and blow himself up.

But please, continue to tell us, against all hard facts and evidence, that we're wrong, and the Tonkor is actually not all that great as we think.

 

EDIT: Also, number of forma required is not a downside. If that was the case, the Lex Prime would be considered bad due to having only a single V polarity.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Magneu
Afterthought

[Diseenith]

You know, this is exactly why the Staticor is so popular as well. Its another explosive-like weapon that wont kill you when you try to use it. 

[Ikusias]

Just an addendum on this discussion:

today during an excavation mission on neptune for t3 keys I found out at my expense that penta grenades left on the ground when a nullifier walked over them with it's bubble couldn't be manually detonated at all - did this happen to anyone else?