I Really, Really Love Valkyr, but... (I don't love being permanently invincible)

[Specific.Zod]

The problem is:

She has no clearing crowd skill.

Invicibility is boring. but all of her skill set was made to survival alone. Right now with the current enemy scaling, removing her invicibilty mean strip her only "relevant" thing.

Try me, a warcry alone won't take you far in "200 level enemies" match. Warcry is unrecastable, while using warcry you want to keep it up as long as possible, but w/o slow from warcry, level 100 heavy gunners/bombards will gun you down in matter of seconds, not even counting level 100 eximus. Armour is pretty irrelevant for most of frames versus high level enemies, valkyr is not an exception.

This is my proposal band-aid:

Rip Line:

Spoiler

Rename: Prey Raptor

Valkyr jump on the target, deal damage and knockdown target.

reason: Rip line is underused, it only purpose is traveling in large distance, witch can easily be achieved by packour 2.0. If you use it to pull enemies, it take more time to kill them than simply jump with packour to them.

Hysteria:

Spoiler

Base Invicibility time at any level: 20 seconds. not affected by duration mods.

For each kill:

- Valkyr gain 2.5 more seconds invicibility bonus, capped at 60 seconds total (including base Invicibility). affected by duration mods.

- Melee bonus damage increase by 0.5% each kill, unlimited cap. unaffected by power strenght.

- Claw range grow 3% each kill, capped at 90%, unaffected by range mods.

- Movement speed increase 2% each kill, affected by power strenght.

Pros:

- eliminated full time energy invicibility.

- Further enchanced her killing potential as long as she can alive and kill (sound right bersecker?)

- Provided her an inate claw range for faster clearing room potential.

Cons:

- maximum potential in long run/high level enemies (40 minutes up)

- no Mods penalty?

- may make community raging.

Paralysis:

Spoiler

insert new skill here if Raptor is implemented.

Spoiler

Valkyr taunt nearby enemies into attacking her, leaving them and her vulnerable.

Bonus damage for valkyrs: 20%.

Only Valkyrs get the bonus damage when attacking taunted enemies (prevent power creep)

Damage bonus for every enemies affected: 10%.

6/8/10 seconds.

8m,

 

Edited March 3, 2016 by Specific.Zod

[ShikiRen]

Ok, here is what you do :

 

Step 1 : Get the Eternal War Augment.

Step 2 : Use HP+ ,Armor+ and Rage mods

Step 3 : Equip a strong melee weapon with Life Strike

Step 4 : Activate Warcry

Step 5 : Zerk your way through hordes of enemies while having to make sure to refill your HP when needed and keep the combos going (for kills to fuel Eternal War and combo counter in case you use Body Count and Bloodrush, which I personally find the most enjoyable way to rock weapons with at least 15% crit)

...

Profit.

 

There, non-cheap, non-stop Zerker action with Valkyr. You're welcome.

Edited March 3, 2016 by ShikiRen

[Gurpgork]

9 hours ago, CriticalFumble said:

What if you gave hysteria a threat multiplier and a short range damage shift aura?  This would make her more valuable in a team situation beyond the reviving anchor member.  Also creates a situation where to use hysteria you're incentivized to act hysterical and go all River Tam on those Reav- I mean Grineer. 

Hmm... Something like that could work. I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to give it something like Fatal Attraction, where it pulls enemies towards you, but they don't attack. 

9 hours ago, CriticalFumble said:

I'm not certain that changing the claws themselves is a good idea, because what you're getting there is incredible single target (or at least tiny AoE) potential. 

Are you referring to my proposal to increase the base range of the claws? 

The fundamental problem with anything single target in Warframe is that we don't usually fight single targets. Even the "priority" targets aren't big enough of threats that a squad would, for instance, find it worthwhile to dedicate a team slot specifically for eliminating them. If that were the case, Limbo would be popular.

The expansion of claw range is more a QoL fix than anything else. It softens the blow of fighting Nullifiers, and it helps alleviate Valkyr's melee limitation in a way that would remain respectful to her close combat focus.

9 hours ago, Specific.Zod said:

The problem is:

She has no clearing crowd skill.

Invicibility is boring. but all of her skill set was made to survival alone. Right now with the current enemy scaling, removing her invicibilty mean strip her only "relevant" thing.

Try me, a warcry alone won't take you far in "200 level enemies" match. Warcry is unrecastable, while using warcry you want to keep it up as long as possible, but w/o slow from warcry, level 100 heavy gunners/bombards will gun you down in matter of seconds, not even counting level 100 eximus. Armour is pretty irrelevant for most of frames versus high level enemies, valkyr is not an exception.

This is my proposal band-aid:

I see a couple main problems with this.

One, your Rip Line replacement feels way too similar to Slash Dash and Rhino Charge, but with a single target limitation. I don't think it would be better than tweaking Rip Line to make it more useful. 

Two, if Eternal War is proof of anything, making the god mode work like Eternal War isn't going to limit its duration at all. It's still going to be complete god mode as long as Valkyr finds an enemy to butcher every once in a while, and it comes with the cream topping of a variety of staking buffs and potentially no ceiling on how high her damage can go. If anything, this would make the balance problem of Hysteria into a balance crisis.

Third, Paralysis. Contrary to popular opinion, it's actually a useful skill. Its range needs a substantial buff, and it needs to be able to interrupt enemy actions, but it opens enemies to finisher attacks. Hysteria finishers can instantly kill basically anything below level 200. That's a huge advantage, and a 20% bonus to damage that's exclusive to Valkyr on a few enemies is absolutely not worth the ability to instantly kill a Bombard.

7 hours ago, ShikiRen said:

Ok, here is what you do :

Step 1 : Get the Eternal War Augment.

Step 2 : Use HP+ ,Armor+ and Rage mods

Step 3 : Equip a strong melee weapon with Life Strike

Step 4 : Activate Warcry

Step 5 : Zerk your way through hordes of enemies while having to make sure to refill your HP when needed and keep the combos going (for kills to fuel Eternal War and combo counter in case you use Body Count and Bloodrush, which I personally find the most enjoyable way to rock weapons with at least 15% crit)

...

Profit.

There, non-cheap, non-stop Zerker action with Valkyr. You're welcome.

I've done this quite a bit, and I've found that Chroma and even Saryn can do it better. Chroma has tons more armor and has a vastly superior buff to his damage output than Warcry is capable of. Saryn's Toxic Lash can potentially quintuple melee damage considering the full damage of the guaranteed Toxin proc, and she can also use Spores to not only halve the health of everything on the map, but spread her melee damage as well. Not to mention that both of those frames can also substantially boost the power of ranged weapons. Excalibur without Exalted Blade has extremely good crowd control, as well as a radial nuke and an augment that lets him boost the melee combo meter to preposterous heights. Wukong without Primal Fury is still completely immortal. 

This is what's wrong with Valkyr: Hysteria is the only thing that makes her worth playing.

[Specific.Zod]

No. Paralysis is worth with Human vortex augment only. If Raptor is implemented, she will not need another finisher skill like old paralysis.

With normal paralysis, you need to recast it reapeatedly to get that bonus melee finisher cause you barely able to kill 2 targets in one paralysis cast. my proposed band-aid give valkyr a better crowd control - direct enemies fire from allies, actually useful if you are reviving a teammate/ defend a target or cryopod surrounded by high level enemies, give them enough time to get out of there.

And for hysteria buff, after first 20 seconds, you will need to keep killing to gain bonus invicibility, 40 seconds bonus total, after that, if you can't kill keep killing, you will lost invicibility and need to decide : recast Hysteria to gain base invicibility time and lost all bonus, or jump in a cluster of enemies and risk your life but keep the bonus. Eternal War mechanic should be the original Hysteria mechanic. and damage bonus? She has no clear crowd skill, if you take out her Infinite Immortal (currently, as long as you have energy, no need to worrry), give her a little bonus is not really bad (my hysteria, full energy does not guarantee Infinite immortal, you need to kill, but her damage fall off as everyone else, and its ability to crowd clearing is just like Venka...)

It's just my propose, still can change the invicibilty bonus time down to 1-1.5-2 or change total bonus down to 20 seconds if you want. Beside that damage storing in current Hysteria still remain in my hysteria.

remember that warframe gameplay revolve around hordes killing, that why Exalted Blade and (agrubaly) Primal Fury always shine than Hysteria in term of gameplay. Immortal does not mean you will win, it's just mean you can't die.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Specific.Zod

[J-Reyno]

I agree with you.  I don't play Valkyr or Wukong because they're boring.

I don't have suggestions because contrary to what some say, identifying the problem can definitely be productive, especially when the issue is detailed.  And that's all been covered.

[Inmemoratus]

18 hours ago, RexRgisIocus said:

You do know that the only 3 game mods valk "might" have trouble with are Def, MD and Excavation right? Modes that any frame aside Frost (and maybe Limbo) has trouble with at mid-high levels seeing as the objective isn't surviving but defending.

 

Does that make her balanced? not in my opinion. Its fine if one single frame trivializes 1 game mode or 2  but all of them but 3? that just wrong.

I'm not saying she has trouble in general. She's just not as useful as many other frames on pretty much any mode except like solo survival or nightmare missions. She's rarely a bad choice, but no frame ever should be.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Inmemoratus

[Inmemoratus]

18 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

where did he even mention anywhere about mission success or failure? when you remove death from the game wether or not you succeed or fail. you have trivialized gameplay.

 

Mission success is actually what matters though. If you don't like trivializing the personal survival aspect of gameplay then play another frame. You can trivialize some other aspect of gameplay instead (hint: that's how this game works)

Edited March 3, 2016 by Inmemoratus

[ShikiRen]

5 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

Hmm... Something like that could work. I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to give it something like Fatal Attraction, where it pulls enemies towards you, but they don't attack. 

Are you referring to my proposal to increase the base range of the claws? 

The fundamental problem with anything single target in Warframe is that we don't usually fight single targets. Even the "priority" targets aren't big enough of threats that a squad would, for instance, find it worthwhile to dedicate a team slot specifically for eliminating them. If that were the case, Limbo would be popular.

The expansion of claw range is more a QoL fix than anything else. It softens the blow of fighting Nullifiers, and it helps alleviate Valkyr's melee limitation in a way that would remain respectful to her close combat focus.

I see a couple main problems with this.

One, your Rip Line replacement feels way too similar to Slash Dash and Rhino Charge, but with a single target limitation. I don't think it would be better than tweaking Rip Line to make it more useful. 

Two, if Eternal War is proof of anything, making the god mode work like Eternal War isn't going to limit its duration at all. It's still going to be complete god mode as long as Valkyr finds an enemy to butcher every once in a while, and it comes with the cream topping of a variety of staking buffs and potentially no ceiling on how high her damage can go. If anything, this would make the balance problem of Hysteria into a balance crisis.

Third, Paralysis. Contrary to popular opinion, it's actually a useful skill. Its range needs a substantial buff, and it needs to be able to interrupt enemy actions, but it opens enemies to finisher attacks. Hysteria finishers can instantly kill basically anything below level 200. That's a huge advantage, and a 20% bonus to damage that's exclusive to Valkyr on a few enemies is absolutely not worth the ability to instantly kill a Bombard.

I've done this quite a bit, and I've found that Chroma and even Saryn can do it better. Chroma has tons more armor and has a vastly superior buff to his damage output than Warcry is capable of. Saryn's Toxic Lash can potentially quintuple melee damage considering the full damage of the guaranteed Toxin proc, and she can also use Spores to not only halve the health of everything on the map, but spread her melee damage as well. Not to mention that both of those frames can also substantially boost the power of ranged weapons. Excalibur without Exalted Blade has extremely good crowd control, as well as a radial nuke and an augment that lets him boost the melee combo meter to preposterous heights. Wukong without Primal Fury is still completely immortal. 

This is what's wrong with Valkyr: Hysteria is the only thing that makes her worth playing.

Ahh, but do Chroma and Saryn allow you to forgo Berserker in favour of another mod without a second thought? Do they allow you zip and zap all over the battlefield or have a move you can scream "GET OVER HERE" to (and thus being able to continue a combo that might have been lost otherwise)? Or a way to oneshot the few enemy types that can still be a major pain in the a#* due to their insanely high HP (Napalms, Bombards...)?

 

Also i thought one of the reason you stopped liking Valkyr was because it was boring not taking damage. So why is Chroma taking like 3 hp/second any less boring? It just means you have to press Channel once every blue moon. If you stop Zerking as Valk, there is a very real chance you might get your a#* handed to you, which i thought was part of the appeal.

 

As for your other points : Ripline is a way better movement tool than Slash-Dash and Rhino Chrage; Whats more is that I see fewer people Slashdashing than I see Valkyrs permanently being in their Ultimate. It also serves - or should serve - as a way to continue a combo, not damage (slash dash) or cc (charge).

 

And Paralysis doesn't need a range increase. It is, after all, meant to be a way to open enemies to melee finishers, so basically melee range it is.

Edited March 3, 2016 by ShikiRen

[Gurpgork]

6 hours ago, Specific.Zod said:

With normal paralysis, you need to recast it reapeatedly to get that bonus melee finisher cause you barely able to kill 2 targets in one paralysis cast. my proposed band-aid give valkyr a better crowd control - direct enemies fire from allies, actually useful if you are reviving a teammate/ defend a target or cryopod surrounded by high level enemies, give them enough time to get out of there.

The problem with giving Valkyr an aggro pull is that it's worse than worthless without Hysteria. It would entirely depend on Hysteria to not get Valkyr killed. And if it came with some kind of massive damage reduction to make it work, it would once again be made completely redundant by Hysteria. 

6 hours ago, Specific.Zod said:

And for hysteria buff, after first 20 seconds, you will need to keep killing to gain bonus invicibility, 40 seconds bonus total, after that, if you can't kill keep killing, you will lost invicibility and need to decide : recast Hysteria to gain base invicibility time and lost all bonus, or jump in a cluster of enemies and risk your life but keep the bonus. Eternal War mechanic should be the original Hysteria mechanic. and damage bonus? She has no clear crowd skill, if you take out her Infinite Immortal (currently, as long as you have energy, no need to worrry), give her a little bonus is not really bad (my hysteria, full energy does not guarantee Infinite immortal, you need to kill, but her damage fall off as everyone else, and its ability to crowd clearing is just like Venka...)

It's just my propose, still can change the invicibilty bonus time down to 1-1.5-2 or change total bonus down to 20 seconds if you want. Beside that damage storing in current Hysteria still remain in my hysteria.

I understand what you're trying to accomplish with this idea, but I don't think it will accomplish that at all. It seems to me that it would end up just like Defy. Defy was designed specifically to have diminishing returns, punishing sustained use, but people can just recast it every time it triggers.

Then it just doesn't even matter that it has diminishing returns. I really feel like the same thing would be true for your Hysteria suggestion. The damage buff is barely needed at all in sortie-level missions, and that's the highest level content that the overwhelming majority of the playerbase can ever reasonably expect to encounter. 

Plus it wouldn't change Valkyr's huge redundancy problem in the slightest.

1 hour ago, ShikiRen said:

Ahh, but do Chroma and Saryn allow you to forgo Berserker in favour of another mod without a second thought?

I wouldn't call that much of an advantage, since Valkyr with Warcry but not Berserker would only have a 67% advantage in attack speed over a frame using Berserker alone at maximum Power Strength. I personally can't think of a mod I could use in its place that would give me enough of a damage increase to make that worthwhile that isn't already in my build. 

1 hour ago, ShikiRen said:

Also i thought one of the reason you stopped liking Valkyr was because it was boring not taking damage. So why is Chroma taking like 3 hp/second any less boring? It just means you have to press Channel once every blue moon. If you stop Zerking as Valk, there is a very real chance you might get your a#* handed to you, which i thought was part of the appeal.

I said that Chroma does that playstyle better than Valkyr does. I didn't say anything about one being more fun than the other, or that I spend a whole lot of time playing him, either. I only said that Chroma was more effective. 

1 hour ago, ShikiRen said:

As for your other points : Ripline is a way better movement tool than Slash-Dash and Rhino Chrage; Whats more is that I see fewer people Slashdashing than I see Valkyrs permanently being in their Ultimate. It also serves - or should serve - as a way to continue a combo, not damage (slash dash) or cc (charge).

That's a matter of debate. Rip Line has much farther range, yes, but Slash Dash and Charge are much faster, and they have several more benefits on top of it beyond raw mobility, not to mention that both Slash Dash and Charge have vastly superior augments. 

Rip Line's range is not enough of an advantage over Slash Dash and Charge for it to cost the same as them, when both of those abilities also offer good mobility on top of other benefits. It's not a bad ability, but it could be better. And if it isn't made better, it should be made cheaper.  

1 hour ago, ShikiRen said:

And Paralysis doesn't need a range increase. It is, after all, meant to be a way to open enemies to melee finishers, so basically melee range it is.

It would certainly be a helpful bonus, and it would help Valkyr's survivability without Hysteria. It would make it a little less painful to close distance, while helping to develop something useful that Chroma can't do. I think developing Valkyr's crowd control aspects as well as further promoting her mobility would make her much more relevant without Hysteria.

[KaneAshe]

I'm more or less in agreement with Gurpgork's overall assessments, but the truth is the Valkyr already has some of the highest, if not the highest short range damage in the game. Her spin attack will be one-shotting practically any enemy in the game at any relevant level of play (triple digit levels in endless are irrelevant to balance, as much as people like to argue otherwise). She has so much damage, what she needs is a way to effectively lay down that damage instead of just overkilling one or two targets at a time. Giving her more generic utility I think would just be a bandaid fix that doesn't really help her stand out, and giving her more claw range would honestly be a bit silly and counter-intuitive.

So imho, I think it would be enough to add a vortex effect to Paralysis. Then her short melee range doesn't matter, you just suck em in and clean em up with a few quick spin attacks. She could clear an entire room VERY quickly with this method regardless of enemy levels or heavily armored targets. Also, being a vacuuming-cleaning-meat-grinder sounds fun. :)

Better to leave the actual CC to characters whose kits actually require it to survive instead of contributing to the "just give everyone CC" problem.

 

P.S. It does kinda trouble me that her claws so heavily outclass any currently existing melee weapon. It would also be nice if Warcry gave a damage buff to non-Hysteria weapons so that you actually can choose to use them without gimping your DPS while still having Hysteria for the fights that are too intense to go without. Weapon variety would be welcome, especially since she is so good at using slow and heavy weapons.

Edited March 4, 2016 by KaneAshe

[Rorgal_Sina]

On 3/2/2016 at 7:43 AM, CriticalFumble said:

Ok, your forum profile says Febuary 16th as your join date.  If you started playing around that time, I'm going to have to assume you haven't actually seen "most of the content" in order to judge that she trivializes all of it (as you imply, with very few mods).  I'm not going to argue that she's not good - for certain things - but if you haven't seen high-end Corpus missions, or T4 Void missions, you really can't appreciate the position she's in.  

  Reveal hidden contents

Rip Line gets a two-phase trigger.  

Tap pulls Valk towards whatever is struck.  If she lands on an enemy, she deals an automatic melee attack for [air/wall/finishing attack] damage.  

Holding down Rip Line ensnares the target, but prevents Valkir from doing anything else.  Snared enemies are unable to move or attack as they struggle to get free.  The target can be ragdolled by flicking to the sides or up.  Releasing the power button yanks the target in to an automatic melee attack for [see above] damage.  

2

First of all, forum profile entry date =/= actual entry date. That's when the user first joined the forums.

It's really disturbing of you to make such elitist conclusions based on this assumption alone and yet get support and likes for it.

[(PSN)Crimson_Judgment]

On 3/2/2016 at 4:32 PM, Gurpgork said:

I had been thinking of making a Valkyr thread similar to this, only with a lot of proposed changes alongside it, but ultimately decided against it. So thank you for making it. This is pretty much exactly what I've been thinking as someone who mained Valkyr until 17.5 came out.

That being said, talking about a problem and not offering solutions isn't productive. In the spirit of that notion, here are my proposed solutions for making Valkyr the demonic flurry of claws/personification of rage that she is supposed to be.

 

Hidden Content

 

I Like a lot of your suggestions

small input i always picture that she Should "Catch" the enemy hit by Ripline... with her melee weapon/Claws

[Deodus]

To me Valkyr has no place in endless high level content : she does little to nothing to contribute to the team or help complete objectives unless it's a survival, and still, past the two hour mark you're not dealing enough damage with your Hysteria melee to be as efficient as a punch through VHek with a Res Banshee.

The only thing she has for her is that she can solo pretty much anything that doesn't require you to protect/defend something.

I'd like a complete rework of her abilities so she can be useful for more HL content, at least as much as Frost/Trin/Vauban/Ivara/Loki/Limbo.

She has nothing that would make me (or any member of my clan and pretty much everyone I usually play with) use her over any useful frame^1,2, even outside of long endless mission: I'd prefer a Trin EV/Vauban/Loki/Ivara team for NM LoR or regular LoR, same for sorties.

And if you're not running through HL content well yeah she's [place your preferred term for OP] just like most other frames¹ used correctly.

<sub>1. Frame referring to Warframe.
2. Useful frame refers to Warframes that contribute ACTIVELY to the objective and/or the team not standing there/killing random ennemies</sub> 

[KaneAshe]

Honestly you may be right, but on the other hand, what's wrong with a frame that specializes in solo butt-kicking? Not every frame needs to fit the group meta. The more important issue is whether or not she is fun to play imo.

Personally, I'd like to see Valk as the goto for solo players who just like to be really really good at killing stuff. Which, technically she already is. The problem is it's impossible for the enemies to kill HER, which takes all the fun out of it.

Edited March 4, 2016 by KaneAshe
Typo

[Inmemoratus]

10 minutes ago, KaneAshe said:

Personally, I'd like to see Valk as the goto for solo players who just like to be really really good at killing stuff. Which, technically she already is. The problem is it's impossible for the enemies to kill HER, which takes all the fun out of it.

Well they can kill her if there are nullifiers or ancient disruptors. So Corpus, Infested, and Corrupted have ways to end her ult and possibly kill her. The only faction that actually cannot kill her is the Grineer. It's kinda like how the infested can't actually do anything to Frost if he uses the globe augment.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Inmemoratus

[HainRammsteiner]

On 02/03/2016 at 10:46 PM, tripletriple said:

Everytime I see a valkyr thread like this I can't help but think how egotistical the person on the other side must be.

What is boring to you is fun for others. Where is the alternatives to hysteria? Where are the other ideas to enhance her otherwise lack luster kit?

Where is your original and unique proposals to change her into an actual berserker? Nerf is a terrible word for valkyr. She needs buffs and a change to hysteria.

This is just a whining thread without those.

EDIT 

Just saw gurporks ideas. Great ideas there. Definitely would support that. My only addition would be to make ripline hit multiple targets.

So true , ppl just say oh its boring let's make it go away or nerf it wth? Don't like it don't use it , if it so boring stop using it  move on but don't ruin the fun for the rest 

[Deodus]

1 minute ago, KaneAshe said:

Honestly you may be right, but on the other hand, what's wrong with a frame that specializes in solo butt-kicking?

Absolutely nothing wrong > I enjoy doing low/mid level stuff with Ember just to "pwn" enemies and enjoy a little bit of "press 4 to win".

5 minutes ago, KaneAshe said:

The more important issue is whether or not she is fun to play, I'd rather play a weak but fun Valk solo than a boring Valk in high level group content. Especially since this game's "high level" content is entirely superfluous and only there for the challenge/bragging rights.

Yeah, well who doesn't enjoy a good challenge ? And isn't that what you're asking by changing Valkyr's hysteria ? (and superfluous is a really really strong word especially if you add entierely right before it).
You just want it forced on a frame you like to play (nothing wrong with that), I prefer to have to adapt to my mission and use good strategies while keeping me on my toes because every single enemy can one shot me.

And no, "high level" content is not there for bragging rights, it's the only thing keeping my clan (and many others I know) playing this game because like I said, almost every frame can go through enemies level 10-70 without any trouble. (Though I do love the looks of the Aseron Sekhara)

The only way to make her more interesting to play and useful would be a complete rework of ALL her abilities (there has already been good suggestions and I'm not going to list them).

Another solution (more solo oriented) would be rewarding the player while changing/preventing the use of powers that could be deemed as "OP".

[KaneAshe]

I'll defer to your corrections, since I don't especially disagree with you on any point. :)

But for clarity, what I meant by superfluous/bragging rights, etc, etc... Is just that you aren't required to play high level content to actually do/get everything in the game. Nor do you even receive any sort of increased reward for playing at a higher level. So having a frame that is less than ideal for it doesn't force you to miss out on anything. That's all I meant. xP

At any rate, I'm just the kind of guy who says "I like her concept, I like her aesthetics, I like tanking hits/lifesteal... I just wanna play her without feeling like I the only ability I need is Hysteria and that I have to actually turn my brain on in order to stay alive." I'll be happy with pretty much whatever as long as it fixes her poorly designed mechanics.

Edited March 4, 2016 by KaneAshe

[CriticalFumble]

2 hours ago, Rorgal_Sina said:

First of all, forum profile entry date =/= actual entry date. That's when the user first joined the forums.

It's really disturbing of you to make such elitist conclusions based on this assumption alone and yet get support and likes for it.

Fact check, that post has zero likes.  I questioned him, politely, because he was thinking things that I thought when I was new - invulerablity being over the top, valk making eveything easy, and so on.  

Then I realized she's wildly outclassed in every area except not dieing.  I still use her a lot because I solo a lot, and with no alternative to revives in solo she's relatively incredible.  At this point I only bring out hysteria to heal, avoid sudden death, and the occasional burst against bosses.  This is because hysteria is actually outclassed in most situations by good melee weapons.  

All the while I'm playing progressively higher level content, which actually became very capable of killing me because I sacrificed constant invulnerability for overall better offense.  So, yes, I'm suspicious when people focus on Valk's invulnerability - because I used to do that.  

[KaneAshe]

1 hour ago, CriticalFumble said:

Fact check, that post has zero likes.  I questioned him, politely, because he was thinking things that I thought when I was new - invulerablity being over the top, valk making eveything easy, and so on.  

Then I realized she's wildly outclassed in every area except not dieing.  I still use her a lot because I solo a lot, and with no alternative to revives in solo she's relatively incredible.  At this point I only bring out hysteria to heal, avoid sudden death, and the occasional burst against bosses.  This is because hysteria is actually outclassed in most situations by good melee weapons.  

All the while I'm playing progressively higher level content, which actually became very capable of killing me because I sacrificed constant invulnerability for overall better offense.  So, yes, I'm suspicious when people focus on Valk's invulnerability - because I used to do that.  

If I came in all "Valkyr so OP she can go invincibibbble!!!111!!" then yeah, I'd see your point. But I'm actually just pointing out something players old and new can agree with. Games aren't fun when you can't pat yourself on the back and say "I played that really well." or "I've gotten a lot stronger." None of that matters with Valk. You just press 4 and spam spin attack on every enemy and they all die no matter what level they are and none of your decisions or time spent playing her really matter.

But this thread was never about how strong or weak Valk is and I made that clear from the start; it's about how unfun permanent invulnerability and having 3 abilities that you don't even need is. That's not something that's different at high level or low level, and none of what I said actually implied that I didn't understand her current place in the big picture of the game. Still, you weren't impolite and I ain't mad. xP

Valk's playstyle is really cool, but the training wheels need to come off. She needs to have more (read: some!) risk, and possibly more reward as well. And her other 3 abilities need to matter.

To be honest though, it's not really OK for Valk to be the way she is for new players regardless of how she performs elsewhere. It's debatable how much "high level" content she trivializes relative to other frames, but it's a fact that she trivializes nearly everything below Sorties. Valk completely destroys ALL low level missions, including Defense types. Don't say low level balance isn't important too, that's the greatest part of what most people will experience.

Edited March 4, 2016 by KaneAshe

[Specific.Zod]

4 hours ago, KaneAshe said:

If I came in all "Valkyr so OP she can go invincibibbble!!!111!!" then yeah, I'd see your point. But I'm actually just pointing out something players old and new can agree with. Games aren't fun when you can't pat yourself on the back and say "I played that really well." or "I've gotten a lot stronger." None of that matters with Valk. You just press 4 and spam spin attack on every enemy and they all die no matter what level they are and none of your decisions or time spent playing her really matter.

But this thread was never about how strong or weak Valk is and I made that clear from the start; it's about how unfun permanent invulnerability and having 3 abilities that you don't even need is. That's not something that's different at high level or low level, and none of what I said actually implied that I didn't understand her current place in the big picture of the game. Still, you weren't impolite and I ain't mad. xP

Valk's playstyle is really cool, but the training wheels need to come off. She needs to have more (read: some!) risk, and possibly more reward as well. And her other 3 abilities need to matter.

To be honest though, it's not really OK for Valk to be the way she is for new players regardless of how she performs elsewhere. It's debatable how much "high level" content she trivializes relative to other frames, but it's a fact that she trivializes nearly everything below Sorties. Valk completely destroys ALL low level missions, including Defense types. Don't say low level balance isn't important too, that's the greatest part of what most people will experience.

at low level. most of frames trivialize content up to level 40. in low level when enemy hit like nine 9 year old child, it does not matter about her weakness, but from high level up, she start to be more useless outside "do not dieing". I'm afraid that her will never be in meta frame like frost or excalibur. she just does not have the ability to do so.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Specific.Zod

[ArturiaFayth]

Just out of curiosity but you do know that she has more abilities besides hysteria right?
Just use her warcry, ripline and paralysis instead of going into hysteria constantly and you will enjoy her again, and hopefully get good at her.

Trust me, Hysteria spammers are terrible valkyrs as they will always lose out on a player that doesn't rely on their ultimate. Best example i can give you for that is a sortie i ran a while ago. Survival, me on a banshee with 3 hysteria valkyrs. The valkyrs went down a lot, whereas i on a banshee didn't get killed once.
Hell, i even did a T4 survival run with an alliance mate of me where i didn't even use hysteria the whole run and still managed to survive for 40 minutes before the timer we agreed on for the run was finished.

My point being, instead of using Valkyr for her hysteria and then disliking the frame BECAUSE of her hysteria, why not use her other abilities and use Hysteria as a last resort? A nullifier comes towards you, just rely on your armor increases while gunning the nullifier down with your gun. Don't have a gun with you? Then channel and cut the bastard down! Not that hard right?!
God mode is boring yes, but if you screw up your energy efficiency you will get killed if you rely on it thanks to the constant drain!
And yes, i know i repeat myself multiple times, but when people keep complaining about valkyr being boring/OP thanks to abusing hysteria, instead of using it as a last resort, i'll have to keep repeating myself on how there are other abilities on her!

[Aeraxis]

I used her briefly after her rework, and she went back in the closet to collect dust with my Excalibur. I sold my Ash, if they do a rework on him, that makes him less press 4 to complete the mission, I'll farm Ash Prime. Too much power with little to no drawbacks makes them EXTREMELY boring.

[Senoinya]

On 3/2/2016 at 4:46 PM, tripletriple said:

Everytime I see a valkyr thread like this I can't help but think how egotistical the person on the other side must be.

What is boring to you is fun for others. Where is the alternatives to hysteria? Where are the other ideas to enhance her otherwise lack luster kit?

Where is your original and unique proposals to change her into an actual berserker? Nerf is a terrible word for valkyr. She needs buffs and a change to hysteria.

This is just a whining thread without those.

EDIT 

Just saw gurporks ideas. Great ideas there. Definitely would support that. My only addition would be to make ripline hit multiple targets.

^ Truth.

Fix Valkyr before you wreck the one good thing she has: Her 4th.

Mesa got her 4th messed up before she got a kit fix. Now she has a subpar kit with a mediocre 4th. Now nobody uses Mesa. Is that what you want?

[Kettunen]

Having read through several threads like these I'm more inclined to believe that the issue with Valkyr is more about philosophy and design rather than perceived balance. Having played video games for roughly 25 years and seen gaming evolve from relatively simple ideas and genres (jump over a box/ shoot a monster) to more and more complex and varied ideas (mine boxes to make other type of boxes and do stuff with said boxes/ befriend all monsters) I'm struggling to define what actually makes a good game? How much challenge or interactivity - if any- should they have? Or is it solely defined by the media that it's conveyed through (But then how can you tell the difference between Minecraft and PowerPoint?)? Maybe it's like porn: you can't quite define it but you sure as hell recognize it when you see it. But what's the point? For example, some people say that modern walking simulators (Stanley parable, Firewatch, Gone home etc) shouldn't be classified as games because there is hardly any interaction or risk of failure. Yet they appeal to quite a few people and you can enjoy them despite them not obeying all the "criterias" of what you could call "classical gaming".

In my opinion (which is subjective) playing Valkyr is quite much like these walking sims (Although you can still fail. Usually by leaving the computer unattended for several minutes) and it's totally okay for people to be satisfied with it. Yet I still think that Valkyr is unbalanced within the context I believe DE is trying to establish in Warframe. (Un?)fortunately Valkyr is limited in usability by her other skills. Mainly that warcry can't be reapplied for debuff (and lack of synergy) and that paralysis doesn't seem to be working roughly half the time. Valkyr isn't totally game breaking because survivability is only one of the metrics by which frame usefulness is measured. However, personally I still frown upon invincibilty (even in PvE games) without measured scarcity because it needlessly takes away one dimension of gameplay without giving anything back in return.

Lastly: with these threads there is usually a hidden agenda in play. When talking about about apples and oranges, it's quite appealing to defend apples even if you don't particularly care for them. Because if apples get nerfed, oranges' asses might be danger next.