How to Balance Shadow Step But Keep it Interesting

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On 11.03.2016 at 11:02 PM, -dicht.Amducias- said:

i tried all the melee weapons with many different builds against all factions (mostly the heavy enemies of the factions but also some weak ones)

melee was every time inferior to my guns (ofc not the crap guns)

Well.. There's actually Nikana prime with her insane combo that can kill lvl 100 heavy gunner in 3 seconds but seriously, considering the amount of enemies you're facing in surv you can't melee them all to death like that especially if you're alone so that way you won't get enough life supports. And always going for that combo is hard since combos are very badly done in WF.

2 hours ago, LazyKnight said:

What is the point of this passive ability anyway? Is it supposed to be used during spy missions (or any other mission done covertly) to allow non-stealth frames a method of witness disposal? If that's the case, then it could be change to trigger on a stealth kill take down (the one with the attack prompt) and still be useful.  

I sorta of want to invest in Naramon for the critical chance bonus, but It seems way too good compared to the others. I picked Unairu...I should have read up before I did that quest.

No. No one uses it in spy that's just stupid. It's mostly for high tier high level surv, and mostly for solo. Which alone takes away all the cheese because if you **** up there's no one to revive you. And if you're alone and use melee only it's already a challenge enough as it is, even in invis (last time I played Valkyr like this my fingers were dead from all the spin attacks you have to do after 40-50 min even in t2 - didn't particularry feel like I was having it "too easy")

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Shadow Step does need some form of rebalancing, but the OP's suggestion is a completely atrocious overreaction. Permanent invisibility while in melee combat is indeed a bit overpowered....but changing it to "You'll get hit slightly less often" would just render it completely, utterly, and totally worthless. Terrible, terrible suggestion.

If OP wants it so much he could've asked for another way for this school that can't be activated along with shadow step, like only "this" or "that". Instead of ruining it for everyone who picked that school exactly because of shadow step. But that would've been too simple I guess, as everyone must suffer.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Nomen_Nescio

[LazyKnight]

1 minute ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

No. No one uses it in spy that's just stupid. It's mostly for high tier high level surv, and mostly for solo. Which alone takes away all the cheese because if you **** up there's no one to revive you. And if you're alone and use melee only it's already a challenge enough as it is, even in invis (last time I played Valkyr like this my fingers were dead from all the spin attacks you have to do after 40-50 min even in t2 - doesn't particularry felt like I was having it "too easy")

I know how people use it, I am just wondering what is the intended use, seeing as how DE routinely tells people they were not playing the game as intended.  I just can't imagine the developers thinking it was balanced for permanent up-time

 

 

[-Temp0-]

It is probably how it was intended to be. Someone is just going bananas over the fact that people are yet again trying to stay longer in the void in order to save up some keys. Which leads to less time spent farming for it aka doing the regular missions. Can't have such thing now can we.

And I'm just wondering here, are people like OP aren't gonna ask for Trickery's nerf? 20 sec invis must be so cheesy and doesn't even require time to activate, can trigger it right when you arrive in the mission. But right, people will riot cause they didn't spend all the time doing raids or all the plat just to be left with nothing. 

Edited March 12, 2016 by Nomen_Nescio

[ShinoKami007]

3 hours ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

It is probably how it was intended to be. Someone is just going bananas over the fact that people are yet again trying to stay longer in the void in order to save up some keys. Which leads to less time spent farming for it aka doing the regular missions. Can't have such thing now can we.

And I'm just wondering here, are people like OP aren't gonna ask for Trickery's nerf? 20 sec invis must be so cheesy and doesn't even require time to activate, can trigger it right when you arrive in the mission. But right, people will riot cause they didn't spend all the time doing raids or all the plat just to be left with nothing. 

very nice and civil answer :)

[-N7-Leonhart]

What is the point of this? Everyone that says it's not OP in every scenario either lies to the others or to themselves. What can we do about it? Nothing much, I am sure the devs know how much they screwed the focus trees up, all we can do now is wait.

[RealPandemonium]

7 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

.but changing it to "You'll get hit slightly less often" would just render it completely, utterly, and totally worthless. Terrible, terrible suggestion.

It sounds more like "you will almost never be hit" to me, given how little we get hit already.  

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

It sounds more like "you will almost never be hit" to me, given how little we get hit already.  

That's still trash. Basic endgame enemies of sortie 3 even can kills half of warframes with maxed defensive mods. The game is balanced around requiring full god mode.

[ShinoKami007]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

That's still trash. Basic endgame enemies of sortie 3 even can kills half of warframes with maxed defensive mods. The game is balanced around requiring full god mode.

totally

a player that say he can survive alone at 1hour of T4 survival while not being valkyr or invisible ...i want proof

this game is not meant to be played above the intended level, and it's why DE is nerfing the crap out of all crowd control and/or survivability abilities

[RealPandemonium]

21 hours ago, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

That's still trash. Basic endgame enemies of sortie 3 even can kills half of warframes with maxed defensive mods. The game is balanced around requiring full god mode.

If the game is balanced around full god mode then it's not a game anymore.  How can you even defend something like that?   We should be campaigning for a fun game to play, not clinging to bandaids and non-gameplay.  If you don't care about playing a fun game and only care about your addiction to the reward table, then go play a KMMO or something instead of lobbying to keep a game that people actually enjoy on a nose-dive toward disaster.  

Edited March 14, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

6 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

If the game is balanced around full god mode then it's not a game anymore.  How can you even defend something like that?   We should be campaigning for a fun game to play, not clinging to bandaids and non-gameplay.  If you don't care about playing a fun game and only care about your addiction to the reward table, then go play a KMMO or something instead of lobbying to keep a game that people actually enjoy on a nose-dive toward disaster.  

Yet that's what developers are obviously doing. When sortie 3 enemies can't instakill half warframes with maxed defensive mods slotted, well THEN we can start saying that shadow step is too powerful. But I think it obviously won't happen, since developers constantly add even more broken enemies. 

[LazyKnight]

Yeah, those sorties are rather brutal, because of a few NPCs.  Yesterday, during a sortie a single bursa wiped the entire squad the instant the CC on it faded. We still won dead because the round cleared, but it's still an absurd situation. I was using a frost prime with mods for high level survivability  and was still flattened in a second.

[RealPandemonium]

2 hours ago, LazyKnight said:

Yeah, those sorties are rather brutal, because of a few NPCs.  Yesterday, during a sortie a single bursa wiped the entire squad the instant the CC on it faded. We still won dead because the round cleared, but it's still an absurd situation. I was using a frost prime with mods for high level survivability  and was still flattened in a second.

People need to learn to roll through Bursa missile salvos.  I typically roll through one Bursa attack and then just stick to its back and avoid knockdowns until it's dead.  The degree of weenie-ness that people display when Bursas show up is pretty sad, especially when they're loaded out with a bunch of multi-formaed game-trivializing gear.  

[LazyKnight]

10 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

People need to learn to roll through Bursa missile salvos.  I typically roll through one Bursa attack and then just stick to its back and avoid knockdowns until it's dead.  The degree of weenie-ness that people display when Bursas show up is pretty sad, especially when they're loaded out with a bunch of multi-formaed game-trivializing gear.  

Are you for real? Seriously, if you like this type of NPC artificial difficulty then please stop posting. Roll, yeah, sure, when you can come up with something other than crap for "get gud."

I had you on ignore before you're going back. Get lost

Edited March 14, 2016 by LazyKnight

[RealPandemonium]

55 minutes ago, LazyKnight said:

Are you for real? Seriously, if you like this type of NPC artificial difficulty then please stop posting. Roll, yeah, sure, when you can come up with something other than crap for "get gud."

I had you on ignore before you're going back. Get lost

Artificial difficulty is when you're fighting level 100 Grineer that one-shot you with hitscan spray and take 10% or 2% of damage due to armor scaling.  

A Corpus enemy that is supposed to be especially dangerous to you (to the degree that Lotus specifically warns you whenever it spawns in) should be justifiably dangerous.  Getting in close and keeping to its back while avoiding knockdowns makes it manageable, especially with a team of 4, and even moreso when you have OP gear that can effectively 1shot it.  It's not artificial difficulty; it's just boosted difficulty in a specific circumstance.  

Perhaps this poster's username is an indication of how he plays?

[LazyKnight]

50 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Artificial difficulty is when you're fighting level 100 Grineer that one-shot you with hitscan spray and take 10% or 2% of damage due to armor scaling.  

A Corpus enemy that is supposed to be especially dangerous to you (to the degree that Lotus specifically warns you whenever it spawns in) should be justifiably dangerous.  Getting in close and keeping to its back while avoiding knockdowns makes it manageable, especially with a team of 4, and even moreso when you have OP gear that can effectively 1shot it.  It's not artificial difficulty; it's just boosted difficulty in a specific circumstance.  

Perhaps this poster's username is an indication of how he plays?

You're kidding right? What can one shot a sorties level bursa? If it exists i do not have it. What weapon in game can kill a level 90 to 100 bursa in one hit? My Vaykor hek can not kill it one hit with ANY build. 

I never said it was a Isolator Bursa, it was Drover Bursa and if you do not know what that is lols. It's artificial difficulty when the Bursa is over level 60. And if you missed the point it was the damage it was doing that was the issue. So, you're agreeing with me, thanks for wasting my time yet again.

Are you really going to comment on my user name with the one you chose? Sigh, Yours means confusion and disorder, Should i read into that about your mental state or some other derogatory insult that you play like a fool ? 

 

Edited March 14, 2016 by LazyKnight

[DiabolusUrsus]

3 hours ago, LazyKnight said:

Are you for real? Seriously, if you like this type of NPC artificial difficulty then please stop posting. Roll, yeah, sure, when you can come up with something other than crap for "get gud."

I had you on ignore before you're going back. Get lost

 

2 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Artificial difficulty is when you're fighting level 100 Grineer that one-shot you with hitscan spray and take 10% or 2% of damage due to armor scaling.  

A Corpus enemy that is supposed to be especially dangerous to you (to the degree that Lotus specifically warns you whenever it spawns in) should be justifiably dangerous.  Getting in close and keeping to its back while avoiding knockdowns makes it manageable, especially with a team of 4, and even moreso when you have OP gear that can effectively 1shot it.  It's not artificial difficulty; it's just boosted difficulty in a specific circumstance.  

Perhaps this poster's username is an indication of how he plays?

Guys, chill out.

Bursas, just like Corrupted Bombards and the like, are poorly-designed enemies. This is in large part due to the fact that they have to compensate for vastly overpowered players, but they're still poorly-designed. 

They have insane damage potential, high resilience, a wealth of CC, and high mobility. To top things off they spawn more frequently than some of the game's weaker enemies. This does not allow for engaging or creative means of dealing with them. If an enemy is going to be especially dangerous in any given respect, it should have a comparable weakness. If it's got no outstanding weaknesses, it should not have any outstanding strengths. 

That said, they're not impossible to deal with either. Things definitely start to get out of hand at the third stage of Sorties, which is why I strongly believe that we are in desperate need of a definite scaling rebalance. It used to be that level 40 was "top-tier." Power-creep has seen to it that our enemies have more than doubled in strength to keep up with us, and I think we can agree that locking down the entire map or suffering instant death isn't very fun. 

Simply put, many of Warframe's enemies are fine at level 40, most of them are BS at level 100. Unless, of course, you have sold your soul to the meta.