Tonkor: Let's fix easy mode

[Irorone]

5 hours ago, Necrius said:

Why tonkor is easymode? I can't hit the hek with it, it got no premature detonation for its grenades unlike Penta, so if I miss an enemy, they just fly wherever they want.

Because people complain it's too powerful and an outlier in its own weapon group. Which is literally the only core argument the nerfers go off of.  Based on this they want to nerf it in some manner (to some aoe size, to others damage).  There was literally a whole rant between myself and two other users here on how careless damage tweaks can ruin a weapon, and on multiple other topics relating to the tonkor's components specifically.  Let's put it this way just like the vast majority of these nerf threads the lack of compromise made it get toxic fast, and in this case DE deleted two pages (by no means all of said rant) to re-rail the conversation.  Point is basically the same as every other nerf thread on here one side wants things changed another wants it to stay the same and virtually never do they agree on anything.

To basically post what I put on another such tonkor thread, give it a unique role among the launchers or some such.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Irorone

[Magneu]

Personally, I like the idea Irorone had in I believe another thread; change the Tonkor to detonate like a shaped charge, dealing its damage (maybe reduce from 325 base to 290-300 base,as well as fix crit headshots with AOE for real this time) in between a 90 degree (split in half in the direction of travel) to 180 degree (split in half from direction of travel) explosion that spans 8-10 meters. It would still remain somewhat safe for closer ranges due to its shaped nature (much more so than other explosives), while being the premier weapon for storming a hallway, or somewhere enemies are holed up.

On the downside, miss the lead target, and they (as well as anyone else in front of your target) will still be opening fire on you (to say nothing of clip size, etc etc). Oh, and remove the aim-guide, or apply it to all launchers. One or the other.

Maybe tweak self-damage to 300 or 500 to compensate (with lack of manual detonation/extreme bounciness, maybe 100% full self-damage is a little too much), bump up the MR requirement to 10 or so, and I see a more balanced weapon that has a unique identity, while still remaining powerful.

[Leo17453]

4 minutes ago, Magneu said:

Personally, I like the idea Irorone had in I believe another thread; change the Tonkor to detonate like a shaped charge, dealing its damage (maybe reduce from 325 base to 290-300 base,as well as fix crit headshots with AOE for real this time) in between a 90 degree (split in half in the direction of travel) to 180 degree (split in half from direction of travel) explosion that spans 8-10 meters. It would still remain somewhat safe for closer ranges due to its shaped nature (much more so than other explosives), while being the premier weapon for storming a hallway, or somewhere enemies are holed up.

On the downside, miss the lead target, and they (as well as anyone else in front of your target) will still be opening fire on you (to say nothing of clip size, etc etc). Oh, and remove the aim-guide, or apply it to all launchers. One or the other.

Maybe tweak self-damage to 300 or 500 to compensate (with lack of manual detonation/extreme bounciness, maybe 100% full self-damage is a little too much), bump up the MR requirement to 10 or so, and I see a more balanced weapon that has a unique identity, while still remaining powerful.

Wait, what...

I've never used the Tonkor, but that thing has an aim-guide???

[Irorone]

3 minutes ago, Leo17453 said:

Wait, what...

I've never used the Tonkor, but that thing has an aim-guide???

Its basically got landing lights on its flight pattern when you aim.  FYI it's not 100% accurate anymore though.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Irorone
grammar

[TheLexiConArtist]

22 hours ago, Magneu said:

Personally, I like the idea Irorone had in I believe another thread; change the Tonkor to detonate like a shaped charge, dealing its damage (maybe reduce from 325 base to 290-300 base,as well as fix crit headshots with AOE for real this time) in between a 90 degree (split in half in the direction of travel) to 180 degree (split in half from direction of travel) explosion that spans 8-10 meters. It would still remain somewhat safe for closer ranges due to its shaped nature (much more so than other explosives), while being the premier weapon for storming a hallway, or somewhere enemies are holed up.

On the downside, miss the lead target, and they (as well as anyone else in front of your target) will still be opening fire on you (to say nothing of clip size, etc etc). Oh, and remove the aim-guide, or apply it to all launchers. One or the other.

Maybe tweak self-damage to 300 or 500 to compensate (with lack of manual detonation/extreme bounciness, maybe 100% full self-damage is a little too much), bump up the MR requirement to 10 or so, and I see a more balanced weapon that has a unique identity, while still remaining powerful.

As loath as I am to criticise such a striking attempt at actually contributing, I'd sooner see something like that given to the Ogris, or another existing, possibly even new rocket-launcher weapon. Rocketry lends itself to sporting such shaped charges, where grenades are rather more about what explodes than how. Giving shaped blast to the Tonkor is like.. I don't know, suggesting a grenade launcher that shoots out Claymore mines or something.

 

It wouldn't work with a bouncing projectile still causing an explosion, in my opinion, that would only serve as a mechanism with which to actually have a chance of inflicting the self-damage, which a non-reflexive angular arc would almost certainly remove from any likelihood of hitting the user otherwise.

Last thing you'd want is the projectile rolling back before detonation and turning its blast radius the utter wrong way, missing all the enemies at best, doing nothing but hitting the user at worst. As a rocket, it'd be detonation on terrain impact, giving it at least some modicum of reliability. I think that's an appropriate risk and reward - the shaped blast on a rocket reduces or removes user risk, but adds the burden of skill (and lessens the actual area of the effect) to actually get the most use, as it would always have to be made to detonate in front of a group, not just anywhere around or within them.

 

Still, not my decision, subject to opinion, and ideas beat arguments, so keep them coming.

Edited April 5, 2016 by [DE]Danielle
Removed inflammatory comment

[Irorone]

41 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

As loath as I am to criticise such a striking attempt at actually contributing _{(Really, Irorone, you're in no place to make commentary on the detoxed pages as you were at least half of the equation on them existing)}, I'd sooner see something like that given to the Ogris, or another existing, possibly even new rocket-launcher weapon. Rocketry lends itself to sporting such shaped charges, where grenades are rather more about what explodes than how. Giving shaped blast to the Tonkor is like.. I don't know, suggesting a grenade launcher that shoots out Claymore mines or something.

 

It wouldn't work with a bouncing projectile still causing an explosion, in my opinion, that would only serve as a mechanism with which to actually have a chance of inflicting the self-damage, which a non-reflexive angular arc would almost certainly remove from any likelihood of hitting the user otherwise.

Last thing you'd want is the projectile rolling back before detonation and turning its blast radius the utter wrong way, missing all the enemies at best, doing nothing but hitting the user at worst. As a rocket, it'd be detonation on terrain impact, giving it at least some modicum of reliability. I think that's an appropriate risk and reward - the shaped blast on a rocket reduces or removes user risk, but adds the burden of skill (and lessens the actual area of the effect) to actually get the most use, as it would always have to be made to detonate in front of a group, not just anywhere around or within them.

 

Still, not my decision, subject to opinion, and ideas beat arguments, so keep them coming.

Oh hey guess who decided to ignore that I didn't name names >_>.

1.  Than remove the bounce from the concept and make it plant it as a mine.

2.  Ironically this was a point part of the rant fest that got deleted.

P.S. on the topic of contribution forgive the thread necromancy given how old this one is but

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Irorone

[LazyKnight]

To the people asking for Tonkor to be made into a shaped charge deliver system, Kulstar already detonates like a Claymore mine (not 100% it's a mix of at least 2 types).  Not sure what distinction it would have over Kulstar other than it maybe being hit-scan, maybe? I know there are spinning mines and shaped charges, but would it be fun or just randomly kill players?

Personally,I think it would be fun if Tonkor was functionally a potato launcher. Have it require hitting the NPCs directly and have the AoE range something around 2 meters. This would let it keep the damage, but if the blast radius was smaller then it should*(DE know's I do not) require aiming at the head or torso in order to see those big numbers and it would not be safe to the user at point blank. 

 

P.S. I WANT a range finder on the HuD for explosive weapons, and that something that would make them better in a hot-fix, please DE!

[cx-dave]

I got a suggestion for the naysayers. Do and complete today's (4/4/2016) Corpus Excavation Sortie solo and tell me you still want the Tonkor nerfed. That's what this weapon is for and not blowing up easy cannon fodder. You can do that faster with almost anything.

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

I got a suggestion for the naysayers. Do and complete today's (4/4/2016) Corpus Excavation Sortie solo and tell me you still want the Tonkor nerfed. That's what this weapon is for and not blowing up easy cannon fodder. You can do that faster with almost anything.

Excavation is broken because the excavator health doesn't scale at all, making it an unacceptably weak stationary target at high levels and especially with Sortie enemy augments. It's already a known dissatisfaction with the player base. Proves nothing. In fact, if the Tonkor is the only way you can do this solo, it proves the point that it should be nerfed, as it allows you to still handle a broken mission type at the highest level alone.

Also, could totally still do it given time or a cheese warframe.

[LazyKnight]

1 hour ago, cx-dave said:

I got a suggestion for the naysayers. Do and complete today's (4/4/2016) Corpus Excavation Sortie solo and tell me you still want the Tonkor nerfed. That's what this weapon is for and not blowing up easy cannon fodder. You can do that faster with almost anything.

It might be possible for an blind-build Excalibur to clear it, but  would not be useful to have a Tonkor (dagger with CL and a kohmak to burst null bubbles fast). Or a irradiating disarm Loki, but it would be stupid and it wouldn't be worth the 25 cores that would be the payoff with how many ways a null could screw that mission in a second.

Edited April 5, 2016 by LazyKnight
It's off topic and taking up space

[TrinityPrime]

28 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

I got a suggestion for the naysayers. Do and complete today's (4/4/2016) Corpus Excavation Sortie solo and tell me you still want the Tonkor nerfed. That's what this weapon is for and not blowing up easy cannon fodder. You can do that faster with almost anything.

I did it solo, didn't take tonkor, only killed enough carriers to get 300 cryotic though, before I extracted. Used mirage to blind the whole level except for an occasional nullifier but it's not like they're gamebreaking. I think Mirage has a few nerf threads on her and the "you can extract at 300 cryotic in sorties" has been reported for months now.

[TheBrsrkr]

1 hour ago, Irorone said:

.  Than remove the bounce from the concept and make it plant it as a mine.

That essentially removes the rocket jumping mechanic from it, and changes the entire role of the weapon. 

[Irorone]

2 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

That essentially removes the rocket jumping mechanic from it, and changes the entire role of the weapon. 

Assuming you identify the tonkor for the jump aspect and not the aoe damage which quite a few people really like the aoe damage.

Edit: also how does removing the bounce remove the rocket jumping which usually requires point blanking with the tonkor?

Edited April 5, 2016 by Irorone

[TheBrsrkr]

30 minutes ago, Irorone said:

Assuming you identify the tonkor for the jump aspect and not the aoe damage which quite a few people really like the aoe damage.

 

It's  a grenade launcher. Of course it's going to do radial damage. The issue here is what makes it different from the other launchers that do the same thing. 

 

32 minutes ago, Irorone said:

: also how does removing the bounce remove the rocket jumping which usually requires point blanking with the tonkor?

Because then you'd be jumping from a mine which would have to detonate. If you're using it as a mine, doing this would essentially waste the shot since the mine impacts you instead of where the enemy is. You don't set mines at point blank range though, you set them where people walk. In places you usually would not need to jump anyway, or where jumping would be a hindrance more than  anything. 

[Irorone]

7 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

It's  a grenade launcher. Of course it's going to do radial damage. The issue here is what makes it different from the other launchers that do the same thing. 

 

Because then you'd be jumping from a mine which would have to detonate. If you're using it as a mine, doing this would essentially waste the shot since the mine impacts you instead of where the enemy is. You don't set mines at point blank range though, you set them where people walk. In places you usually would not need to jump anyway, or where jumping would be a hindrance more than  anything. 

People are arguing to nerf the tonkor because it's GOOD at doing radial damage, so what's wrong with suggesting a cone launcher?  What makes it different?  That it has only two shots, has to direct hit or timeout near an enemy to do damage doesn't count as different currently?

Which would actually make sense because you could place your mancannons giving it mobility option, and that would make it different from current launcher which just kill/down you when you try to do that very thing.  Also my suggestion was in regards to a cone launcher suggestion which you're taking out of context.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Irorone

[LazyKnight]

8 minutes ago, Irorone said:

Also my suggestion was in regards to a cone launcher suggestion which you're taking out of context.

I pity DE having to keep track of all the stuff people mentioned.

Do you want a shaped charge grenade or to have it function as mine launcher? If it's a shaped charge grenade how would it function different than Sancti Tigris? if it is a mine how do you tell where it is facing and not get blown up? It would need a red outline of the blast zone like wow raids have with impending AoE.

Edited April 5, 2016 by LazyKnight

[Irorone]

15 minutes ago, LazyKnight said:

I pity DE having to keep track of all the stuff people mentioned.

Do you want a shaped charge grenade or to have it function as mine launcher? If it's a shaped charge grenade how would it function different than Sancti Tigris? if it is a mine how do you tell where it is facing and not get blown up? It would need a red outline of the blast zone like wow raids have with impending AoE.

I'm trying to contribute >_>. Speaking of keeping track of what people have said.  Tigris uses pellets I'm talking an aoe.  Also why not both?  Finally must be nice complaining about keeping track of what people have said when you only quote one sentence out of four.

3 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

As loath as I am to criticise such a striking attempt at actually contributing _{(Really, Irorone, you're in no place to make commentary on the detoxed pages as you were at least half of the equation on them existing)}, I'd sooner see something like that given to the Ogris, or another existing, possibly even new rocket-launcher weapon. Rocketry lends itself to sporting such shaped charges, where grenades are rather more about what explodes than how. Giving shaped blast to the Tonkor is like.. I don't know, suggesting a grenade launcher that shoots out Claymore mines or something.

 

It wouldn't work with a bouncing projectile still causing an explosion, in my opinion, that would only serve as a mechanism with which to actually have a chance of inflicting the self-damage, which a non-reflexive angular arc would almost certainly remove from any likelihood of hitting the user otherwise.

Last thing you'd want is the projectile rolling back before detonation and turning its blast radius the utter wrong way, missing all the enemies at best, doing nothing but hitting the user at worst. As a rocket, it'd be detonation on terrain impact, giving it at least some modicum of reliability. I think that's an appropriate risk and reward - the shaped blast on a rocket reduces or removes user risk, but adds the burden of skill (and lessens the actual area of the effect) to actually get the most use, as it would always have to be made to detonate in front of a group, not just anywhere around or within them.

 

Still, not my decision, subject to opinion, and ideas beat arguments, so keep them coming.

I was replying to the bounce on this, and suggested making it a mine on "miss" to further define the weapon in comparison to others and no it wouldn't need an outline since if you're gonna use it as a mancannon you probably won't be waiting 15 seconds to do so. If you're talking about blowing yourself up with this "mine launcher" I have one word for you Penta.

Also DE skims the forums the only times they really intervene is when things get toxic (which they usually respond to with deletes and thread locks) kind of like the first sentence on the second quote ironically enough.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Irorone

[LazyKnight]

1 hour ago, Irorone said:

Tigris uses pellets I'm talking an aoe.  Also why not both?

A shaped charge grenade would causes a conical explosion into the target. If it hit an NPC it would blow out the back of them like a shotgun blast. It was just a thought that you meant using Tonkor to shot an NPC directly and blow up those behind the NPCs as opposed to having a spherical explosion centered at the impact zone.

1 hour ago, Irorone said:

II was replying to the bounce on this, and suggested making it a mine on "miss" to further define the weapon in comparison to others and no it wouldn't need an outline since if you're gonna use it as a mancannon you probably won't be waiting 15 seconds to do so.

If it was always generated the conical explosion perpendicular to the ground it might work. Not saying it has to have a red-outline of its direction it would just make easier.

Edited April 5, 2016 by LazyKnight

[Irorone]

Just now, LazyKnight said:

A shaped charge grenade would causes a conical explosion into the target. If it hit an NPC it would blow out the back of them like a shotgun blast. It was just a thought that you meant using Tonkor to shot an NPC directly and blow up those behind the NPCs as opposed to having a spherical explosion center at the impact zone.

If it was always generated the conical explosion perpendicular to the ground it might work. Not saying it has to have a red-outline of it's direction it would just make easier.

Assuming said explosion was fragmentary which in game it is not hence why I said aoe vs. pellets after all if it used pellets it'd be a shotgun launcher not a bad idea but considerably different from current tonkor.  And yes it's a thought/attempt to contribute to changing the tonkor in a way that won't kill it.

I'm just saying it doesn't need in any sense an aoe marker since regardless of balancing argument unless tonkor is changed it doesn't do that much self damage, and directionally facing the mine cones in a linear center from firing point would actually let you control the vector of movement of the "rocket jump".

[cx-dave]

2 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Excavation is broken because the excavator health doesn't scale at all, making it an unacceptably weak stationary target at high levels and especially with Sortie enemy augments. It's already a known dissatisfaction with the player base. Proves nothing. In fact, if the Tonkor is the only way you can do this solo, it proves the point that it should be nerfed, as it allows you to still handle a broken mission type at the highest level alone.

Also, could totally still do it given time or a cheese warframe.

Broken because the Excavators are hard to defend? I didn't state Tonkor was the only way. As a matter of fact there are several other options. It was just a good option to use. Weapons and frames are like tools. Use whatever fits the job. 

Also, no I'm not talking about cheese, Do it the right way. Complete digs with 100 points each. Play the game without excuses.

[Irorone]

23 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

Broken because the Excavators are hard to defend? I didn't state Tonkor was the only way. As a matter of fact there are several other options. It was just a good option to use. Weapons and frames are like tools. Use whatever fits the job. 

Also, no I'm not talking about cheese, Do it the right way. Complete digs with 100 points each. Play the game without excuses.

Don't bother the nerfers won't change their opinions and have even had a history of editing quotes just like this so that particular subset isn't even worth spending the effort to convince I just post to annoy them at this point since somehow a 2 page thread delete was "at least half my fault" when it contained posts from 5+ users.  Two of which who I still won't name, are still here at this point DE should've threadlocked us already.

On the note of tweaked quotes?  You know what makes them even more scummy?  You can't even quote the original AND the edited quote just to call them on it which is why I've taken to blatantly using it and owning up to it in hopes of a forum upgrade that doesn't just give more options to flamebaiters.

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Irorone

[Irorone]

4 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

As loath as I am to criticise such a striking attempt at actually contributing _{(Really, Irorone, you're in no place to make commentary on the detoxed pages as you were at least half of the equation on them existing).}

_{Because being part of an event doesn't give you any place to comment on it.  THIS is why it's fruitless to convince them on a counterpoint.  Also if you haven't realized it yet this second chunk ISN'T actually EDYinnit so DE just threadlock this already it's already pancreatic cancer levels of toxic.}

 

[TheBrsrkr]

How does the Kulstar work? I thought it just launched 5 or 6 mini grenades unpredictably, but now I'm seeing something about a shaped charge? 

Edited April 5, 2016 by [DE]Danielle
Removed inflammatory comment

[TheLexiConArtist]

10 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

How does the Kulstar work? I thought it just launched 5 or 6 mini grenades unpredictably, but now I'm seeing something about a shaped charge? 

From what I can draw visually, imagine an umbrella. When the main projectile detonates, it throws out child projectiles spaced and arced as per the 'spokes' of the umbrella.

It's a cluster bomb. Don't know why it's getting related to shaped charges.

18 hours ago, cx-dave said:

Broken because the Excavators are hard to defend? I didn't state Tonkor was the only way. As a matter of fact there are several other options. It was just a good option to use. Weapons and frames are like tools. Use whatever fits the job. 

Also, no I'm not talking about cheese, Do it the right way. Complete digs with 100 points each. Play the game without excuses.

There's a difference between "hard to defend" and "unrealistic to defend". It's a big, stationary target that dies in less than a second. In fact, when I did that mission, a couple extractors were literally dead the moment they hit the ground. "Extractor deployed." +2 CRYOTIC "Extractor destroyed. Protect the remaining dig sites."

Meanwhile, the equivalent target in say, Mobile Defense has something like 18000 shields and 12000 health or something equally obscene. They're a smaller profiled target, too.

[LazyKnight]

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

From what I can draw visually, imagine an umbrella. When the main projectile detonates, it throws out child projectiles spaced and arced as per the 'spokes' of the umbrella.

It's a cluster bomb. Don't know why it's getting related to shaped charges.

I do not know if a mod would deleted it if I linked pictures, but the issue came up with  @Magneu idea of it being using a shaped charge mine as an example of how they want a mine to work. These types of explosives make a "V" shape from the grenade or mine. If its launched it would be a grenade that is meant to burn a hole into the target at the impact point and incinerating whatever is behind it as well. Shaped charges are meant to be used as high explosive anti tank weapons.  

Claymores shots ball bearings and are anti personal: it's what was being described in his post and it's not something that would be launched to randomly blow up the wrong direction. 

If they just want an a mine lobber using Secura Penta with adhesive blast already does that. 

Edited April 5, 2016 by LazyKnight