Tonkor: Let's fix easy mode

[Drasiel]

The Tonkor, it's a rather severe spike on the power curve of launcher weapons. Outstripping other launcher type weapons in nearly all it's base stats and damage potential as well as being the safest launcher to use due to it's lack of self damage.

Now I can hear you in the wings "but dras BUFF ALL THE THINGS. Stop ruining our fun, It's a pve game fok u go play pvp if u want balance" To which I say "no".

The tonkor is an outlier and needs to be adjusted. It's baby's first rpg: safe, fast, easy, brainless. There are a couple of ways to deal with this, and I'm going to touch lightly on the other launcher weapons because they could use a bit of spit shine.

Option the First:

Leave base stats (ignoring damage) the same with the tonkor. Buff all base stats (ignoring damage) on other launchers up to about halfway towards where the tonkors base stats sit. Cut the tonkors damage by 1/4 or up to 1/2 and lower it's mastery rank requirement to 3. Tonkor becomes the first launcher you can create, it lets you learn how launchers work and it's totally safe. You want to more power? get a different launcher and deal with self harm.

Option the Second:

Lower the base stats (ignoring damage) of the tonkor and raise the base stas (ignoring damage) of all the other launchers until they meet in about the middle of the stat range between them. Leave all damage the same. Tonkor gains self damage and an alternate fire that acts as "rocket jump" (for those that are upset about losing tenno bouncing via grendade)

Option the Third:

Leave all the stats the same. Enable self damage on tonkor. Remove passive radial blast headshots. Enable headshots for radial damage if the physical rocket/grenade strikes the head.  Now I can hear you say "but that's impossible with how the tonkor grenades bounce" to which I reply "You can equip the mod adhesive blast, you already have a very substantial bonus to the tonkor's performance with how the grenades bounce spread and the high rate of fire it uses. You can afford the mod slot for the x2 bonus that stacks with the x2 crit bonus the tonkor nearly always sustains".

Addendum:

Were self damage to be added to the tonkor it should no longer explode on contact with players it should either bounce off or pass through.

Launcher type weapons should have the clipping disabled on contact with a player, too long have other players been purposefully trolling and killing launcher users by intentionally diving in front of their shots.

Addendum 2:

Suggested by shyguyk Instead of any of the above options, reduce the tonkor's blast radius. 

Edited April 27, 2016 by Drasiel
addendum 1, addendum 2.

[[DE]Momaw]

1 minute ago, Drasiel said:

Option the Third:

Leave all the stats the same. Enable self damage on tonkor. Remove passive radial blast headshots.

 

I will vote for this, except make life slightly more interesting:  Make the Tonkor's primary fire mode do self damage, killing you instantly the way most people mod it, but add a secondary fire mode..... which does minimal damage and is concussive blast only:  Makes you jump, and gives enemies an impact proc for a momentary stagger. That way it still has the mobility option that some people like it for, and still has some function in a close brawl (i.e. escape the close brawl)

[Drasiel]

3 minutes ago, Momaw said:

 

I will vote for this, except make life slightly more interesting:  Make the Tonkor's primary fire mode do self damage, killing you instantly the way most people mod it, but add a secondary fire mode..... which does minimal damage and is concussive blast only:  Makes you jump, and gives enemies an impact proc for a momentary stagger. That way it still has the mobility option that some people like it for, and still has some function in a close brawl (i.e. escape the close brawl)

That could be pretty fun, gives utility without breaking the curve :D

[[DE]Glen]

Head-shots from radial damage always seemed crazy to me; they're hitting everywhere not just a focused shot in a weak-point. And if you want to start working out the math for the part that hit the face vs the part the hit the rest of them then you'll have to start working out how much missed them entirely, too, which is not a road you want to go down.

Similarly I find it surprising that such a powerful explosive weapon has no meaningful self-damage: a single shell that blows up a dozen infested but barely scratches you seems broken IMO.

 

[desdendelle]

Not touching "balance", the Tonkor is inconsistent with other explosive launchers (Penta, Ogris) and, hell, even with how explosives work. The "only does 50 self-damage" aspect of it is baffling.

[TheGreatBB]

20 minutes ago, [DE]Glen said:

Head-shots from radial damage always seemed crazy to me; they're hitting everywhere not just a focused shot in a weak-point. And if you want to start working out the math for the part that hit the face vs the part the hit the rest of them then you'll have to start working out how much missed them entirely, too, which is not a road you want to go down.

Similarly I find it surprising that such a powerful explosive weapon has no meaningful self-damage: a single shell that blows up a dozen infested but barely scratches you seems broken IMO.

 

Penta and Kulstar both give a significant self damage. It is crazy that the Tonkor gives negligible self damage when the other two can lay waste to yourself and everything around you.

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

39 minutes ago, [DE]Glen said:

Head-shots from radial damage always seemed crazy to me; they're hitting everywhere not just a focused shot in a weak-point. And if you want to start working out the math for the part that hit the face vs the part the hit the rest of them then you'll have to start working out how much missed them entirely, too, which is not a road you want to go down.

Similarly I find it surprising that such a powerful explosive weapon has no meaningful self-damage: a single shell that blows up a dozen infested but barely scratches you seems broken IMO.

 

Because it makes it see play alongside synoid simulor, sancti tigris, vaykor Hek etc. Give it self damage and it will see zero play. At this point self damage from other launches should be removed. Self damage always caused exploits anyway.

 

19 minutes ago, TheGreatBB said:

Penta and Kulstar both give a significant self damage. It is crazy that the Tonkor gives negligible self damage when the other two can lay waste to yourself and everything around you.

I haven't seen anyone use either in many months. Well using kulstar to give it to vip/hostage doesn't count.

[TheGreatBB]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

Because it makes it see play alongside synoid simulor, sancti tigris, vaykor Hek etc. Give it self damage and it will see zero play. At this point self damage from other launches should be removed. Self damage always caused exploits anyway.

 

I haven't seen anyone use either in many months. Well using kulstar to give it to vip/hostage doesn't count.

Removing self damage from all blast weapons would make them way more even and probably used a lot more. Especially since big hitting other weapons can do the same with no risk. (Aside for radiation.)

Also, I <3 my Kulstar. :) I use it in sorties on my Trinity. Don't have to worry too much about killing myself. Lol

[Fraank]

I think the tonkor has/had(?) minor self damage because of the rocket jump ability it has.

_____

On one hand every explosive weapon should cause self-damage and on the other hand explosive weapons should be stronger than other weapons because of the self damage.(Sounds fair to me)

When you shoot with a RPG or Grenade launcher right in front of you, you re going to die as soon as the shockwave hit your body. It's the case in almost every First Person Shooter and in real life as well. Why not in Warframe? There is no "where hit the shock wave the body?", it always is a "the shockwave hit the entire body!".  :p

_____

If i had to transmute coffee into code: (glad i dont have to)

1st Amount of enemies within range of explosion.

2nd: calc the explosion damage first for each available resistance.

3rd shortes distance from the centre of the explosion to the hitbox of each enemy.

4th apply damage to each enemy based on their distance. (i d use a fuzzy system. 0-1meter distance = full damage, 1m-2 m distance = 1/2 dmg, 2m-4m= 1/4 dmg....and so on)

1st step =>   2nd and 3rd step parallel =>  wait for 2nd and 3rd step to be finished => 4th step

I want self damage on every explosive weapon back for the sake of realism.

Edit: Forgot to mention that explosive weapons should act like explosive weapons. Which means, remove the inconsistency inbetween every single explosive weapons => A: every explosive wepaons can be used for rocket jumps or B: none can.        // A: every explosive weapon has "the same" explosive damage or B: none has. For the sake of consistency and realism.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Fraank

[Zonzo]

Are you serious? The rocket jump ability that comes with the Tonkor is the reason it has low self damage? Why in the name of God would you change this? 

"Hey guys lets just take every fun element out of this game, add more bulletsponge enemies and call it a day"

 

Great stuff DE, truly amazed.

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

My (humble) opinion on how to tweak Tonkor (and other launcher/explosive weapons)

1) Make all launchers deal fixed self damage. Somewhere inbetween 100-200 would be good, I think, so Tonkor would deal more damage than now, but other launchers will no longer OHK you if an ally or kubrow jumps in front you while you shoot.

2) Remove an ability to cause headshots for all launcher guns.

3) Adjust the crit rate or crit chance for Tonkor. IMO it should either deal high crit damage with relatively small chance OR high chance with relatively small damage, not both. Alternatively it might be a good idea to allow crits only to a target you hit directly, meaning that you deal high single target damage, but lower AoE damage.

[Drasiel]

 

17 minutes ago, Zonzo said:

Are you serious? The rocket jump ability that comes with the Tonkor is the reason it has low self damage? Why in the name of God would you change this? 

"Hey guys lets just take every fun element out of this game, add more bulletsponge enemies and call it a day"

 

Great stuff DE, truly amazed.

Actually I already suggested giving the tonkor an alternate fire to keep it's jumping mechanic as did another poster:

1 hour ago, Momaw said:

 

I will vote for this, except make life slightly more interesting:  Make the Tonkor's primary fire mode do self damage, killing you instantly the way most people mod it, but add a secondary fire mode..... which does minimal damage and is concussive blast only:  Makes you jump, and gives enemies an impact proc for a momentary stagger. That way it still has the mobility option that some people like it for, and still has some function in a close brawl (i.e. escape the close brawl)

[Zonzo]

Just now, Drasiel said:

 

Actually I already suggested giving the tonkor an alternate fire to keep it's jumping mechanic as did another poster:

Eh, i was reacting to Glen, forgot to quote, as he said it was ridicolous that it didn't do self-damage, which was the point.

[Drasiel]

2 minutes ago, Zonzo said:

Eh, i was reacting to Glen, forgot to quote, as he said it was ridicolous that it didn't do self-damage, which was the point.

Well it is kind of ridiculous that it doesn't do self damage, no other launcher has that (I don't think even the stug the black sheep of launchers does) But self damage and the effect of rocket hopping don't have to be mutually exclusive :D

[Aggh]

Self damage as a downside to a weapon creates exploits, boring gameplay (ogris camping in orokin derelict comes to mind) and leads to weapons being ignored by most players.  Gameplay changes are a better solution to broken AOE weapons (of which, the tonkor is not the only one).  Make players have to play around something if they want to abuse it, just like they have to deal with nullifiers if they want to spam abilities.  Nerfing or changing the weapon itself has pretty consistently proven to be an ineffective approach.

Also, people asking for realism in a game with children controlling space ninjas is ridiculous.  Player enjoyment and game balance should always trump realism.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Aggh

[Herosupport]

the tonkor was a bad idea to begin with, with how blast damage works in the game in order to fix the tonkor ever other weapon that can use blast damage will also get a nerf.

so my suggestion is lower its crit chance to 10%, critical multiplier to x2 and raise its status chance to 40% its base damage could also be improved has it only has 2 round magazine size.

[DeadlyBard676]

make it if you fire the tonkor within 5 meters of your self or allies it sends you(or them) flying.

[ohboy_]

2 minutes ago, KiryuKusakabe said:

make it if you fire the tonkor within 5 meters of your self or allies it sends you(or them) flying.

All that will do is promote trolling. DE should either give the tonkor more self damage, or remove self damage from the game.

[Zonzo]

1 minute ago, -._SwagBlaster_.- said:

All that will do is promote trolling. DE should either give the tonkor more self damage, or remove self damage from the game.

I'd vote on the latter, would make more launchers useable

[DeadlyBard676]

1 minute ago, -._SwagBlaster_.- said:

All that will do is promote trolling. DE should either give the tonkor more self damage, or remove self damage from the game.

then just make it where it sends you flying.

[ohboy_]

3 minutes ago, KiryuKusakabe said:

then just make it where it sends you flying.

Still not a good idea. Other grenade launchers kill you instantly while this will just give you extra mobility if used correctly.

[DeadlyBard676]

1 minute ago, -._SwagBlaster_.- said:

Still not a good idea. Other grenade launchers kill you instantly while this will just give you extra mobility if used correctly.

that's how the tonkor was designed initially tho.

[----Fenrir----]

Please no self damage. Every time a stupid teammate runs in front of you, you die... The Tonkor is the only explosive weapon I use precisely for that reason.

Edited March 14, 2016 by ----Fenrir----

[Kontrollo]

Here's some context btw. Personally, I don't care for a nerf on this gun because I don't use it. But you should know why it is the way it is:

 

It's not just the Tonkor, it's AoE in general. Launchers like Tonkor, Penta, Ogris, even Simulor, Staticor, Sonicor. Certain abilities as well, e.g. Nyx' Absorb, probably more.

There are several threads about that, both in Feedback and in the bug report forums:

 

Edited March 14, 2016 by Kontrollo

[Zonzo]

5 minutes ago, ----Fenrir---- said:

Please no self damage. Every time a stupid teammate runs in front of you, you die... The Tonkor is the only explosive weapon I use precisely for that reason.

This. Instead of giving every launcher a crippling handicap with one exception, it could also be an option to remove said handicap from other launchers, giving them another opportunity at being used. If the Tonkor gets self damage, it'll just get tossed like the rest, resulting in more dead content / mastery fodder.