Tonkor: Let's fix easy mode

[Roving_Neophyte]

On 10.04.2016 at 4:57 PM, DeadlyPeanutt said:

tonkor does NOT need a nerf...

you need to avoid using tonkor. also you need to avoid telling other players how to play and what to enjoy, because it's rude

Well, by your own logic, you also need to avoid telling me what i need to avoid, "because it's rude".

Calling someone's mother a prostitute is rude. Telling someone what they should do is not, however.

Tonkor is obviously OP, i almost can call it a scientific fact. It also ruins the fun for everyone who are not using tonkor. If you still think that tonkor is a finely balanced weapon, just go into the nearest sortie-3 survival or defense with tonkor and a support frame that doesn't deal a lot of damage with abilities, like Trinity. Then, go into the same mission with the same frame and something like Tiberon, Dera Vandal or maybe Telos Boltor and try to get the same performance and % of damage. After this you will probably figure out that tonkor is OP as hell.

It NEEDS a nerf, just to bring some variety to the "top tier weaponry". Because now it looks like "Synoid Simulor Mirage > Tonkor > Everything else". This is just stupid.

[Poolboy]

Dude you're comparing middle tier weapons with high tier weapons...

[Magneu]

6 minutes ago, Poolboy said:

Dude you're comparing middle tier weapons with high tier weapons...

-Middle tier

-High Tier

-Tonkor Tier

The Tonkor currently occupies the highest tier of weaponry in the game. Highest burst/sustained DPS (excluding no punchthrough/mutation, max fire rate/HC automatic builds that won't last five minutes), largest AOE (which nullifies the builds i just mentioned), ammo efficiency, easy to build...its only downside, projectile time, is mitigated by (a) grenades guaranteed to explode which, with it's massive AOE, gives you a very good chance of getting a kill(s) every shot in the enemies' general direction, and (b) an aim-guide that no other launcher has. In addition, its critical stats scale massively with AOE doing broken damage on headshots, giving it yet another leg up on not only other launchers, but all other weapons.

There's a reason you see such a massive amount of Tonkors on high level missions; it's cheap, it's easy, it's brokenly effective, and it kills even triple digit enemies with ease compared to every other weapon in the game. It's beyond me why DE has let it stay so far; they have the statistics, and they've nerfed massive outliers before (see Greedy Mag (number of abilities cast vs amount moved), Synoid Gammacor (above top tier damage, high ammo efficiency, syndicate proc, utter ease of use, etc), Peacemaker (number of kills vs player input), it's just a matter of time. If this was a PvP game, players would have burned the forums to the ground with complaints on day one; Warframe being PvE is the only reason that it hasn't happened, and the only reason that people have a remote possibility of a logical argument for the current Tonkor, except that the nature of being a co-op game shows the Tonkor as actively (a) flipping the risk/reward ratio on its head, (b) directly affecting other players games, (c) creating a dependency on the weapon that creates players that are unable to contribute without it, and (d) stopping a need of progression to experience the game or buy other guns (which directly correlates with plat purchased, which is a large income for DE), which leads to player dropout after "this game isn't hard enough, I oneshot everything". It's an extreme outlier on the power-curve, and as such, needs to be brought back in line

Saying that the "Tonkor doesn't need a nerf, other weapons need buffs" just leads to powercreep, which is always unhealthy for a games long term development (I've attached two videos that succinctly explain why powercreep is bad for the game). In addition, you have yet to provide a single shred of proof/facts/actual logic to support your opinions, which, as of now, are simply "Tonkor doesn't need a nerf", "Stop saying Tonkor needs a nerf", and insulting other players by simply dismissing their arguments as "garbage", while you have yet to even approach credibility.

Arguing that the Tonkor is sub-optimal at lower levels is a misleading argument; I don't say a Ferrari is a bad car because it doesn't get as good gas mileage as a Prius; far from it. It's objectively better in every performance category, with its only downside being price and fuel efficiency. Now we extrapolate and say that the Tonkor is that Ferrari, except it costs $15,000, and gets 40 MPG. Why would you ever drive any other vehicle? In addition, who cares about low-levels? You don't measure something at its bottom line; you measure its full potential. It just so happens that the Tonkor's potential is leagues ahead of second place (whatever that weapon may be).

Nerfing the Tonkor is something that would benefit overall gameplay, promoting more diversity, more player skill, and more actual involvement in the game; discovering an amazingly strong melee strategy that's incredibly fun and synergizes with your playstyle, as opposed to lobbing your x^th grenade towards "x" level mob, saying "meh" and declaring that the game is too easy/not interesting, then demanding more challenging/beefed up content, which will eventually spawns something even stronger than the Tonkor (hard to believe, yes)...all because of one weapon.

It's for this reason that it is imperative that DE rein the Tonkor back in; leaving it as a blatant, massive outlier on the powercurve is unhealthy for overall game balance and longevity, along with creating a playerbase that (a) constantly demands weapons/frames that match or exceed the Tonkor (why would you purposely nerf yourself by not using it (hypothetical; I love my melee way too much to every let go)?), (b) refuses to try new content, namely weapons, aside for mastery (even then, many players don't care for mastery after 5; you can buy Prime frames, use weapons that compete at top tier, and essentially"beat" the game. Also, see previous reasons; directly impacts plat sales), and (c) relies on a single strategy to overcome any obstacle, which is why we have boss invulnerability stages, and  Trials that consist of standing on a button, because we can CC/detonate every threat to ourselves (although CC effectiveness/enemy scaling is a whole other can of worms), so standing in place is pretty much the only other option (DE tried to create a unique two-team feel in the Jordas Verdict trial, with a challenging maze/puzzle section inside, and just see how many players enjoy that mission). I've seen runs of TLoR that involves people taking maybe one or two bullets the entire time; that's not ok for game balance.

Graph the weapons. Plot a point for damage potential for ease of use, or any other factor. See how ridiculously out there the Tonkor is. Sure, it's fun for the player to blow anything and everything up, but in terms of overall game health, longevity, and variety, the Tonkor has to be nerfed. 

P.S. Instead of claiming it doesn't need a nerf, how about people read the several creative alternatives to straight-stat nerfs that would "ruin" the Tonkor, retaining high levels of power but making the weapon more unique than a simple noob-tube (no, rocket-jumping is useless with Parkour 2.0).? Don't blindly lash out against people trying to bring the Tonkor out, try to use some logic and create an actual argument that doesn't commit so many logical fallacies that myself and several other users have to list them at the start of a post.

Peace out, til somebody else goes fallacious.

 

[Leo17453]

4 minutes ago, Magneu said:

-Middle tier

-High Tier

-Tonkor Tier

The Tonkor currently occupies the highest tier of weaponry in the game. Highest burst/sustained DPS (excluding no punchthrough/mutation, max fire rate/HC automatic builds that won't last five minutes), largest AOE (which nullifies the builds i just mentioned), ammo efficiency, easy to build...its only downside, projectile time, is mitigated by (a) grenades guaranteed to explode which, with it's massive AOE, gives you a very good chance of getting a kill(s) every shot in the enemies' general direction, and (b) an aim-guide that no other launcher has. In addition, its critical stats scale massively with AOE doing broken damage on headshots, giving it yet another leg up on not only other launchers, but all other weapons.

There's a reason you see such a massive amount of Tonkors on high level missions; it's cheap, it's easy, it's brokenly effective, and it kills even triple digit enemies with ease compared to every other weapon in the game. It's beyond me why DE has let it stay so far; they have the statistics, and they've nerfed massive outliers before (see Greedy Mag (number of abilities cast vs amount moved), Synoid Gammacor (above top tier damage, high ammo efficiency, syndicate proc, utter ease of use, etc), Peacemaker (number of kills vs player input), it's just a matter of time. If this was a PvP game, players would have burned the forums to the ground with complaints on day one; Warframe being PvE is the only reason that it hasn't happened, and the only reason that people have a remote possibility of a logical argument for the current Tonkor, except that the nature of being a co-op game shows the Tonkor as actively (a) flipping the risk/reward ratio on its head, (b) directly affecting other players games, (c) creating a dependency on the weapon that creates players that are unable to contribute without it, and (d) stopping a need of progression to experience the game or buy other guns (which directly correlates with plat purchased, which is a large income for DE), which leads to player dropout after "this game isn't hard enough, I oneshot everything". It's an extreme outlier on the power-curve, and as such, needs to be brought back in line

Saying that the "Tonkor doesn't need a nerf, other weapons need buffs" just leads to powercreep, which is always unhealthy for a games long term development (I've attached two videos that succinctly explain why powercreep is bad for the game). In addition, you have yet to provide a single shred of proof/facts/actual logic to support your opinions, which, as of now, are simply "Tonkor doesn't need a nerf", "Stop saying Tonkor needs a nerf", and insulting other players by simply dismissing their arguments as "garbage", while you have yet to even approach credibility.

Arguing that the Tonkor is sub-optimal at lower levels is a misleading argument; I don't say a Ferrari is a bad car because it doesn't get as good gas mileage as a Prius; far from it. It's objectively better in every performance category, with its only downside being price and fuel efficiency. Now we extrapolate and say that the Tonkor is that Ferrari, except it costs $15,000, and gets 40 MPG. Why would you ever drive any other vehicle? In addition, who cares about low-levels? You don't measure something at its bottom line; you measure its full potential. It just so happens that the Tonkor's potential is leagues ahead of second place (whatever that weapon may be).

Nerfing the Tonkor is something that would benefit overall gameplay, promoting more diversity, more player skill, and more actual involvement in the game; discovering an amazingly strong melee strategy that's incredibly fun and synergizes with your playstyle, as opposed to lobbing your x^th grenade towards "x" level mob, saying "meh" and declaring that the game is too easy/not interesting, then demanding more challenging/beefed up content, which will eventually spawns something even stronger than the Tonkor (hard to believe, yes)...all because of one weapon.

It's for this reason that it is imperative that DE rein the Tonkor back in; leaving it as a blatant, massive outlier on the powercurve is unhealthy for overall game balance and longevity, along with creating a playerbase that (a) constantly demands weapons/frames that match or exceed the Tonkor (why would you purposely nerf yourself by not using it (hypothetical; I love my melee way too much to every let go)?), (b) refuses to try new content, namely weapons, aside for mastery (even then, many players don't care for mastery after 5; you can buy Prime frames, use weapons that compete at top tier, and essentially"beat" the game. Also, see previous reasons; directly impacts plat sales), and (c) relies on a single strategy to overcome any obstacle, which is why we have boss invulnerability stages, and  Trials that consist of standing on a button, because we can CC/detonate every threat to ourselves (although CC effectiveness/enemy scaling is a whole other can of worms), so standing in place is pretty much the only other option (DE tried to create a unique two-team feel in the Jordas Verdict trial, with a challenging maze/puzzle section inside, and just see how many players enjoy that mission). I've seen runs of TLoR that involves people taking maybe one or two bullets the entire time; that's not ok for game balance.

Graph the weapons. Plot a point for damage potential for ease of use, or any other factor. See how ridiculously out there the Tonkor is. Sure, it's fun for the player to blow anything and everything up, but in terms of overall game health, longevity, and variety, the Tonkor has to be nerfed. 

P.S. Instead of claiming it doesn't need a nerf, how about people read the several creative alternatives to straight-stat nerfs that would "ruin" the Tonkor, retaining high levels of power but making the weapon more unique than a simple noob-tube (no, rocket-jumping is useless with Parkour 2.0).? Don't blindly lash out against people trying to bring the Tonkor out, try to use some logic and create an actual argument that doesn't commit so many logical fallacies that myself and several other users have to list them at the start of a post.

Peace out, til somebody else goes fallacious.

 

There is no way anybody can argue against this.

[Magneu]

Just now, Leo17453 said:

There is no way anybody can argue against this.

Just wait. They will definitely try. A few certain ones in particular (minus the ones we had in the opening pages who gave up) will either attempt to attack my arguments (who knows, maybe they'll somehow succeed? That's the point of debate!), try to strawman me, attempt to produce a red herring, or go ad hominem to attempt to discredit me (or simply dismiss my argument as "nerf crying" and refuse to respond to my criticisms, thereby attempting to gain a high ground. Which, coincidentally, is the same as conceding that their viewpoint is weaker to mine, and therefore incorrect in a correct/incorrect binary structure.). 

However, I have yet to meet someone in this godforsaken thread who can logically, clearly, and (hopefully somewhat) concisely defeat these arguments, which, according to formal logic, proves me right (if DE decides to finally do anything is another question).

^{I even linked a video. TWO videos. Turn tua, Tonkor lovers.} 

[Poolboy]

14 hours ago, Magneu said:

-Middle tier

-High Tier

-Tonkor Tier

The Tonkor currently occupies the highest tier of weaponry in the game. Highest burst/sustained DPS (excluding no punchthrough/mutation, max fire rate/HC automatic builds that won't last five minutes), largest AOE (which nullifies the builds i just mentioned), ammo efficiency, easy to build...its only downside, projectile time, is mitigated by (a) grenades guaranteed to explode which, with it's massive AOE, gives you a very good chance of getting a kill(s) every shot in the enemies' general direction, and (b) an aim-guide that no other launcher has. In addition, its critical stats scale massively with AOE doing broken damage on headshots, giving it yet another leg up on not only other launchers, but all other weapons.

There's a reason you see such a massive amount of Tonkors on high level missions; it's cheap, it's easy, it's brokenly effective, and it kills even triple digit enemies with ease compared to every other weapon in the game. It's beyond me why DE has let it stay so far; they have the statistics, and they've nerfed massive outliers before (see Greedy Mag (number of abilities cast vs amount moved), Synoid Gammacor (above top tier damage, high ammo efficiency, syndicate proc, utter ease of use, etc), Peacemaker (number of kills vs player input), it's just a matter of time. If this was a PvP game, players would have burned the forums to the ground with complaints on day one; Warframe being PvE is the only reason that it hasn't happened, and the only reason that people have a remote possibility of a logical argument for the current Tonkor, except that the nature of being a co-op game shows the Tonkor as actively (a) flipping the risk/reward ratio on its head, (b) directly affecting other players games, (c) creating a dependency on the weapon that creates players that are unable to contribute without it, and (d) stopping a need of progression to experience the game or buy other guns (which directly correlates with plat purchased, which is a large income for DE), which leads to player dropout after "this game isn't hard enough, I oneshot everything". It's an extreme outlier on the power-curve, and as such, needs to be brought back in line

Saying that the "Tonkor doesn't need a nerf, other weapons need buffs" just leads to powercreep, which is always unhealthy for a games long term development (I've attached two videos that succinctly explain why powercreep is bad for the game). In addition, you have yet to provide a single shred of proof/facts/actual logic to support your opinions, which, as of now, are simply "Tonkor doesn't need a nerf", "Stop saying Tonkor needs a nerf", and insulting other players by simply dismissing their arguments as "garbage", while you have yet to even approach credibility.

Arguing that the Tonkor is sub-optimal at lower levels is a misleading argument; I don't say a Ferrari is a bad car because it doesn't get as good gas mileage as a Prius; far from it. It's objectively better in every performance category, with its only downside being price and fuel efficiency. Now we extrapolate and say that the Tonkor is that Ferrari, except it costs $15,000, and gets 40 MPG. Why would you ever drive any other vehicle? In addition, who cares about low-levels? You don't measure something at its bottom line; you measure its full potential. It just so happens that the Tonkor's potential is leagues ahead of second place (whatever that weapon may be).

Nerfing the Tonkor is something that would benefit overall gameplay, promoting more diversity, more player skill, and more actual involvement in the game; discovering an amazingly strong melee strategy that's incredibly fun and synergizes with your playstyle, as opposed to lobbing your x^th grenade towards "x" level mob, saying "meh" and declaring that the game is too easy/not interesting, then demanding more challenging/beefed up content, which will eventually spawns something even stronger than the Tonkor (hard to believe, yes)...all because of one weapon.

It's for this reason that it is imperative that DE rein the Tonkor back in; leaving it as a blatant, massive outlier on the powercurve is unhealthy for overall game balance and longevity, along with creating a playerbase that (a) constantly demands weapons/frames that match or exceed the Tonkor (why would you purposely nerf yourself by not using it (hypothetical; I love my melee way too much to every let go)?), (b) refuses to try new content, namely weapons, aside for mastery (even then, many players don't care for mastery after 5; you can buy Prime frames, use weapons that compete at top tier, and essentially"beat" the game. Also, see previous reasons; directly impacts plat sales), and (c) relies on a single strategy to overcome any obstacle, which is why we have boss invulnerability stages, and  Trials that consist of standing on a button, because we can CC/detonate every threat to ourselves (although CC effectiveness/enemy scaling is a whole other can of worms), so standing in place is pretty much the only other option (DE tried to create a unique two-team feel in the Jordas Verdict trial, with a challenging maze/puzzle section inside, and just see how many players enjoy that mission). I've seen runs of TLoR that involves people taking maybe one or two bullets the entire time; that's not ok for game balance.

Graph the weapons. Plot a point for damage potential for ease of use, or any other factor. See how ridiculously out there the Tonkor is. Sure, it's fun for the player to blow anything and everything up, but in terms of overall game health, longevity, and variety, the Tonkor has to be nerfed. 

P.S. Instead of claiming it doesn't need a nerf, how about people read the several creative alternatives to straight-stat nerfs that would "ruin" the Tonkor, retaining high levels of power but making the weapon more unique than a simple noob-tube (no, rocket-jumping is useless with Parkour 2.0).? Don't blindly lash out against people trying to bring the Tonkor out, try to use some logic and create an actual argument that doesn't commit so many logical fallacies that myself and several other users have to list them at the start of a post.

Peace out, til somebody else goes fallacious.

 

If you honestly think melee meta (IE: mash E while invisible) is more engaging and fun than anything else in the game, you have no room to talk. You're MR15, you should know by now that this game scales ridiculously in endless missions to the point where 4CP is mandatory past level 60 for most weapons. The Tonkor is the only weapon to beat dumb scaling so far besides a few other niche cases. 

Edited April 14, 2016 by NovusNova
Removed Insults

[Teloch]

On 4/14/2016 at 2:00 AM, Poolboy said:

If you honestly think melee meta (IE: mash E while invisible) is more engaging and fun than anything else in the game, you have no room to talk.

This classifies as an attempt of topic derailment
 

On 4/14/2016 at 2:00 AM, Poolboy said:

You're MR15, you should know by now that this game scales ridiculously in endless missions to the point where 4CP is mandatory past level 60 for most weapons. The Tonkor is the only weapon to beat dumb scaling so far besides a few other niche cases. 

This is an attempt to justify one particular balance failure with the far-fetched necessity to proceed through underdesigned part of the game.

~~~~~~
Bottom line: you may want to reconsider the way you speak to strangers, because the high level of agression doesn't make your not very numerous arguments more weighty. And please, try to stick to the topic and provide direct counter arguments in case if you want someone to consider your point of view seriously.

[Magneu]

On 4/14/2016 at 2:00 AM, Poolboy said:

If you honestly think melee meta (IE: mash E while invisible) is more engaging and fun than anything else in the game, you have no room to talk. You're MR15, you should know by now that this game scales ridiculously in endless missions to the point where 4CP is mandatory past level 60 for most weapons. The Tonkor is the only weapon to beat dumb scaling so far besides a few other niche cases. 

 

Where do I begin...first off, I'm MR21. Forum rank isn't game rank. Over 3.1k hours, so I know my stuff as it pertains to game mechanics. I've used every weapon/frame except for Founders/CB/that dumb Archwing scythe (which I need to finish leveling). On a scale of credibility, I'd quite honestly take my word on overall game balance over someone who mains a Tonkor at MR6 (not saying you do, just a hypothetical). Yes, it's tooting my own horn, but I'm doing it to prove I'm not simply talking out of my rear.

Second, I use melee with Chroma and Inaros. You know, an actual tanks, unlike broken Valkyr. I don't use cheese methods.

Third, I despise Naramon with a passion; it's broken beyond belief, on the same level as Prism spam. It simply invalidates a major part of the game. Don't just assume I love it because I love melee. Speaking of melee, it's what I use in triple digits, to frankly great effect (granted, I main Chroma; Ack/Brunt master race). I don't run around spamming the basic attack, I learned a while ago that "hey, combos are pretty good!". So yes, I know the state of melee in the game. Niche to some frames and weapons, but incredibly strong with the right tactics (however, I fail to see in my recent history threads where I *insertexpletive* about melee not being viable. More often than not, I share how melee can be extremely viable. If you could back up this claim, that would be great.).The Tonkor still reigns supreme most of the time though, as while I'm bullet-jumping towards the enemy, sword alone, a grenade soars over my shoulder and Timmy-Tonkor just wiped another squad before running ahead.

Fourth, weapons fall off at level 60? I should stop taking my Burston/Latron/Braton Prime, Dex Sybaris Ack/Brunt and Nikana Prime to sorties with non-buffer frames and dealing more than my 25% share of damage. You should probably test stuff before making baseless claims. In my experience, which I'm pretty sure of, plenty of weapons function just fine at sortie level, except for enhancement sorties. None are as good as the Tonkor, or even close. Yes, there are crappy weapons, and DE needs to balance better, and enemy scaling needs to be toned down. But there's a slew of weapons that, either through, status, crit, raw damage, RoF, or some combination, function just fine at high levels (I used a Boar Prime and Strun Wraith at solo tower runs to level 170, Ack/Brunt up to 130 before Shadow Debt mods. Status is godly). The game is balanced for 100-120 at max, end of endless sortie missions. "High-tier" weapons should be expected to perform reasonably well there, not overbearingly so like the Tonkor.

So. I'd like to keep this civil, to avoid a thread lock (as I think the Tonkor is a point of discussion that needs to be talked about, not shouted about), but cursing me out is not conducive to that. I'd greatly appreciate it if you could create a civil, thought out, logical, factually correct (like knowing my actual MR and not making baseless accusations about playstyle) response to my post here. I don't think I'm being unreasonable when I formulate arguments, back them up, and expect other people to do the same. Yes, I use formal logic to the extreme (and sometimes argue like a robot); this is because that's how we get actual truth, aka, a conclusive end-result. It comes off as abrasive, but that's just how it is. This may all seem an exercise in "I'm right, he's wrong, I win!" (which it kind of is, depending on the viewer), but it's how we get a correct output from the equation. If you can't argue within the laws of logic and debate, you shouldn't be arguing; it's just noise.

Yes, I may sound like an overconfident prick. But that's because I'm very sure of my viewpoints, as they're based in logic and grounded in facts (which just sounds pretentious by itself, ugh). If you want to contribute to the discussion, that's cool. But if you want to lash out at other users for either disagreeing you, or providing arguments you can't defeat...good luck.

 

[Magneu]

I'd like to get back on topic, however. It would be great if future posts 

1. Stated they are either pro-nerf or anti-nerf for the Tonkor.

2. Explain the reasoning for #1.

3. Instead of being emotionally driven in #2, explain their viewpoint in a concise, logical fashion (I am extremely guilty of waxing eloquent in my posts, sorry).

4. Don't attempt thread derailment, are respectful, and addresses only the argument.

The Tonkor is a bit of a sore spot for the community, with a lot of polarizing views. It would be great if we could have a well reasoned debate on the pros/cons of a possible nerf, alternatives to simply dropping the Tonkor's stats, and explanations as to why a poster holds a belief.

A bit hypocritical of me, seeing my posts in this thread, but I want to make an honest effort to clean it up and start fresh (on page 31). 

[TheBrsrkr]

4 hours ago, Poolboy said:

Dude you're comparing middle tier weapons with high tier weapons...

Funny thing is they used to be high tier before all the powercreep that came up around here. The bloody Boltor Prime us mid tier now, when a year ago there were threads exactly like these around for it. Is the Boltor Prime less OP?  No! It just got kicked further down the road and something else took it's place. Everything wrong with it is still there there's just a more invasive and pressing weapon to take care of now.  I don't think you understand what's happening here. 

[Magneu]

8 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Funny thing is they used to be high tier before all the powercreep that came up around here. The bloody Boltor Prime us mid tier now, when a year ago there were threads exactly like these around for it. Is the Boltor Prime less OP?  No! It just got kicked further down the road and something else took it's place. Everything wrong with it is still there there's just a more invasive and pressing weapon to take care of now.  I don't think you understand what's happening here. 

I feel as though my linked videos should be required watching before weapon/frame feedback.

Staying on topic, the Tonkor is considered nerf-worthy because it lies so far above the power curve, with not enough drawbacks to justify it, that it is objectively superior to most every other weapon; because of this, people will naturally gravitate towards it, and not use a majority of the game's content. Not good for game health, as it leads to a never ending, upward spiral of "the next best thing". Best to trim the hedges now than try to cut down a forest later.

[cx-dave]

4 hours ago, Magneu said:

 

There's a reason you see such a massive amount of Tonkors on high level missions; it's cheap, it's easy, it's brokenly effective, and it kills even triple digit enemies with ease compared to every other weapon in the game. 

Compared to any dagger with Covert Lethality, you're not killing much of anything at high levels. The dagger doesn't even need to be ranked up to 30, no Forma, no Catalyst, not even any other mods. This invalidates all your OP arguments for the Tonkor.

2 hours ago, Magneu said:

Second, I use melee with Chroma and Inaros. You know, an actual tanks,

Oh, you mean the ones that get squishy after 1h of T4S.

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, cx-dave said:

Compared to any dagger with Covert Lethality, you're not killing much of anything at high levels. The dagger doesn't even need to be ranked up to 30, no Forma, no Catalyst, not even any other mods. This invalidates all your OP arguments for the Tonkor.

Oh, you mean the ones that get squishy after 1h of T4S.

• Define high levels, when the Tonkor obliterates enemies en masse at the current highest (100-120) still faster than I can accomplish slicing through Infested with a 3x combo multiplier, Stealth Multiplier through Shadow Step, and crit-heavy (including Blood Rush, of course) Corrosive/Heat Dual Ichors.
  • No Infested health category resists either damage type at all, making it exclusively advantageous, yet still not able to match the instant kill of the squadmate's Tonkor.
  • Covert Lethality cannot apply to all units in all circumstances due to lack of Finishers or the Warframe's crowd-control-state not putting the enemy in a Finisher-capable position. See Chargers (not always Finisher-capable after a Sleep Arrow at least), Moa/Ancients (back-finishers only) and unfinishable units (Rollers, Ospreys, mutalist Moa seem not to have inherited the new back-finisher from my experience).
• T4 has an extra multiplier on damage, so of course things will get relatively squishier there. For the purposes of context, they're still far beefier than other Melee-conducive alternatives (less Hysteria Valkyr).

[TheBrsrkr]

1 hour ago, cx-dave said:

Compared to any dagger with Covert Lethality, you're not killing much of anything at high levels. The dagger doesn't even need to be ranked up to 30, no Forma, no Catalyst, not even any other mods. This invalidates all your OP arguments for the Tonkor. 

Stop with the herrings please, I'm allergic to seafood. 

With Covert Lethality, you have to:

Because undetected the entire time

Stay undetected  

Get very close 

Get to the back of the enemy 

Begin a lengthy animation, during which you are completely vulnerable 

Repeat for every enemy in the game that you want to kill

Entirely impossible for some frames, and actually requires abilities to be remotely viable. You HAVE to use a dagger, and you HAVE to use a specific frame, so tell me more about this diversity. 

 

Meanwhile on the Tonkor, you have to:

Shoot, with an aim guide

Not miss

??????????????????????? 

Repeat for every Group you want to kill

Profit 

 

It's like you're trying to ignore every other mechanic the Tonkor has an advantage in to inflate the one special very niche mechanic it doesn't have to direct attention away from it. 

1 hour ago, cx-dave said:

.Oh, you mean the ones that get squishy after 1h of T4S.

Notwithstanding the fact that you don't know how to mod or play Chroma, think about what you just said. Really look at it. Chroma gets squishy after an hour of play. An hour of play. A whole hour of what was supposed to be the hardest game mode. Why does no one find this ridiculous? Why does everyone just take this in stride? 

[TheBrsrkr]

2 hours ago, Magneu said:

I feel as though my linked videos should be required watching before weapon/frame feedback.

Wouldn't help. People read the EULA, and we still get posters like those. It's basically standard form now. 

 

2 hours ago, Magneu said:

.Staying on topic, the Tonkor is considered nerf-worthy because it lies so far above the power curve, with not enough drawbacks to justify it, that it is objectively superior to most every other weapon; because of this, people will naturally gravitate towards it, and not use a majority of the game's content. 

You're preaching to the choir at this point, but that's not how they see it. To them it's not an issue of "why fix the game?" it's an issue of "why make something weaker?" Remember that some people get invested into their weapons, and really don't like to have them nerfed. They're wrong, of course, but I can see where they're coming from. 

People also say buff everything else a lot, oblivious to the development process and the power curve. Sure, it would work, and it would create another proper power curve over time, but this would take a massive amount of man hours and therefore money over many, many months. In a game that thrives on the creation of new content, this is basically a death sentence. But they won't see it that way, because programming I'd basically magic to them. 

3 hours ago, Magneu said:

L. Not good for game health, as it leads to a never ending, upward spiral of "the next best thing". Best to trim the hedges now than try to cut down a forest later.

From their perspective, it would be more fun to live in a forest. 

[CapedBaldy]

Chroma is already squishy in sortie 1 lol

[TheBrsrkr]

3 minutes ago, CapedBaldy said:

Chroma is already squishy in sortie 1 lol

Maybe if you don't mod any power strength on it. 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

just stopping by to express my admiration and gratitude towards the likes of EDY, Mag and Brs, i wish i had your endurance... thank you for not letting this important thread die.

#stoppowercreep2016

[cx-dave]

3 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

• Define high levels, when the Tonkor obliterates enemies en masse at the current highest (100-120) still faster than I can accomplish slicing through Infested with a 3x combo multiplier, Stealth Multiplier through Shadow Step, and crit-heavy (including Blood Rush, of course) Corrosive/Heat Dual Ichors.
  • No Infested health category resists either damage type at all, making it exclusively advantageous, yet still not able to match the instant kill of the squadmate's Tonkor.
  • Covert Lethality cannot apply to all units in all circumstances due to lack of Finishers or the Warframe's crowd-control-state not putting the enemy in a Finisher-capable position. See Chargers (not always Finisher-capable after a Sleep Arrow at least), Moa/Ancients (back-finishers only) and unfinishable units (Rollers, Ospreys, mutalist Moa seem not to have inherited the new back-finisher from my experience).
• T4 has an extra multiplier on damage, so of course things will get relatively squishier there. For the purposes of context, they're still far beefier than other Melee-conducive alternatives (less Hysteria Valkyr).

Level 100 is kind of the start of high level. You'll out kill the Tonkor easily here for instance with Sushi King and Queen (Excalibur & Valkyr resp.). They could "ruin" your game just as easily. Not really the place yet where daggers begin to shine.

 

3 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

 

For instance with yesterday's Sorties, the Soma Prime compared to Tonkor, clearly out damaged Lephantis. Not much missing going on there either and I tested it with maxed Primed Fast Hands for a 1.4s reload time. The right tool for the job trumps whatever Tonkor OP argument.

Edited April 14, 2016 by cx-dave

[Poolboy]

7 hours ago, Magneu said:

Where do I begin...first off, I'm MR21. Forum rank isn't game rank. Over 3.1k hours, so I know my stuff as it pertains to game mechanics. I've used every weapon/frame except for Founders/CB/that dumb Archwing scythe (which I need to finish leveling). On a scale of credibility, I'd quite honestly take my word on overall game balance over someone who mains a Tonkor at MR6 (not saying you do, just a hypothetical). Yes, it's tooting my own horn, but I'm doing it to prove I'm not simply talking out of my rear.

Second, I use melee with Chroma and Inaros. You know, an actual tanks, unlike broken Valkyr. I don't use cheese methods.

Third, I despise Naramon with a passion; it's broken beyond belief, on the same level as Prism spam. It simply invalidates a major part of the game. Don't just assume I love it because I love melee. Speaking of melee, it's what I use in triple digits, to frankly great effect (granted, I main Chroma; Ack/Brunt master race). I don't run around spamming the basic attack, I learned a while ago that "hey, combos are pretty good!". So yes, I know the state of melee in the game. Niche to some frames and weapons, but incredibly strong with the right tactics (however, I fail to see in my recent history threads where I *insertexpletive* about melee not being viable. More often than not, I share how melee can be extremely viable. If you could back up this claim, that would be great.).The Tonkor still reigns supreme most of the time though, as while I'm bullet-jumping towards the enemy, sword alone, a grenade soars over my shoulder and Timmy-Tonkor just wiped another squad before running ahead.

Fourth, weapons fall off at level 60? I should stop taking my Burston/Latron/Braton Prime, Dex Sybaris Ack/Brunt and Nikana Prime to sorties with non-buffer frames and dealing more than my 25% share of damage. You should probably test stuff before making baseless claims. In my experience, which I'm pretty sure of, plenty of weapons function just fine at sortie level, except for enhancement sorties. None are as good as the Tonkor, or even close. Yes, there are crappy weapons, and DE needs to balance better, and enemy scaling needs to be toned down. But there's a slew of weapons that, either through, status, crit, raw damage, RoF, or some combination, function just fine at high levels (I used a Boar Prime and Strun Wraith at solo tower runs to level 170, Ack/Brunt up to 130 before Shadow Debt mods. Status is godly). The game is balanced for 100-120 at max, end of endless sortie missions. "High-tier" weapons should be expected to perform reasonably well there, not overbearingly so like the Tonkor.

Fifth, how exactly is that post pretentious? I laid out facts, backed up my claims, and provided a reputable source (Extra Credit is a game designer by trade; he/they know their stuff), all to prove my point. By comparison, you immediately launched an ad hominem attack, and didn't even attempt to address my arguments, which, funny enough, is exactly what I predicted. By default, you've admitted you can't defeat/answer/refute my arguments and claims, so you've gone personal. Just a friendly tip, swearing all over a post (a) discredits your argument, and (b) is liable to get your post removed, as you're not only being vulgar, but insulting people for the sake of being insulting. 

So. I'd like to keep this civil, to avoid a thread lock (as I think the Tonkor is a point of discussion that needs to be talked about, not shouted about), but cursing me out is not conducive to that. I'd greatly appreciate it if you could create a civil, thought out, logical, factually correct (like knowing my actual MR and not making baseless accusations about playstyle) response to my post here. I don't think I'm being unreasonable when I formulate arguments, back them up, and expect other people to do the same. Yes, I use formal logic to the extreme (and sometimes argue like a robot); this is because that's how we get actual truth, aka, a conclusive end-result. It comes off as abrasive, but that's just how it is. This may all seem an exercise in "I'm right, he's wrong, I win!" (which it kind of is, depending on the viewer), but it's how we get a correct output from the equation. If you can't argue within the laws of logic and debate, you shouldn't be arguing; it's just noise.

Yes, I may sound like an overconfident prick. But that's because I'm very sure of my viewpoints, as they're based in logic and grounded in facts (which just sounds pretentious by itself, ugh). If you want to contribute to the discussion, that's cool. But if you want to lash out at other users for either disagreeing you, or providing arguments you can't defeat...good luck.

 

Melee is pressing E. It's not any more engaging than Tonkor. The only difference between the two is that Tonkor can kill more, and faster. Hell even the Braton P could do that in the hands of someone who knew what they were doing. You're just salty your playstyle isn't the optimal.

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, cx-dave said:

Level 100 is kind of the start of high level. You'll out kill the Tonkor easily here for instance with Sushi King and Queen (Excalibur & Valkyr resp.). They could "ruin" your game just as easily. Not really the place yet where daggers begin to shine.

 

For instance with yesterday's Sorties, the Soma Prime compared to Tonkor, clearly out damaged Lephantis. Not much missing going on there either and I tested it with maxed Primed Fast Hands for a 1.4s reload time. The right tool for the job trumps whatever Tonkor OP argument.

Asking you to 'define' high levels was rhetorical. In actuality, 100-120 is high level. It's the uppermost balance-tier content as it's the maximum you find statically, i.e. a mission in which you're not meant to be outmatched, unlike endless missions which exist for the enemies to win (and force extraction). Ergo, if the Tonkor doesn't fall off until after this, then that data point is irrelevant from balance perspective.

 

"Yesterday's Sortie" being the one that had elemental enhancement and therefore resistances to all elements, which the Tonkor is comprised of almost entirely where the Soma Prime is not?

You could argue a Mk-1 Braton being better than an Amprex under that skewed logic.

[cx-dave]

 

11 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

 

You could argue a Mk-1 Braton being better than an Amprex under that skewed logic.

Maybe fix your logic? You overlooked the huge puncture damage the Tonkor can be modded for. No, the Soma P was better due to fire rate.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

ok, so even if once in a blue moon there was a mission with a single target (in what's usually considered a "horde game") taking more DPS from another weapon, how is this supposed to turn the discussion around? it's completely negletable.

edit: also the fact alot of other things in this game are broken doesn't make the tonkor any less OP.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[TheLexiConArtist]

12 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

Maybe fix your logic? You overlooked the huge puncture damage the Tonkor can be modded for. No, the Soma P was better due to fire rate.

What even is this strawman argument?

Fire rate is an inherent part of damage output - and the Soma wouldn't outperform the Tonkor if not for elemental resists.

Let's check that hyperbolic claim, MK-1 Braton vs. Amprex:

MK-1 Braton base burst DPS: 140.4

Amprex base burst DPS: 300

Elemental resistance required to make MK-1 Braton better than Amprex: 53.2%

 

Meanwhile, Tonkor's "enormous" puncture damage, 75 base, translates after base crit and fire rate to a burst of 228.75, sustained 76.25.

The blast portion, 325 base, translates to burst 991.25 and sustained 330.42.

The Soma Prime's base IPS damage, fire rate and crit stats equate to a burst of 288 and a sustained 235.1.

 

If we take off the Puncture DPS (Burst 288-228.75 = 59.25; sustained 235-76.25 = 158.75) we can infer the following: In burst damage, the Tonkor's elemental blast properties must deal ~6% of their normal damage to outperform the Soma. In sustained damage, the Tonkor's elemental blast properties must deal ~48% of their normal damage to outperform.

 

Assuming the Blast isn't completely nullified by auto-targeting shenanigans (which is a whole different argument), we can therefore infer that based on the Sortie augment alone, that Elemental Enhancement must confer a resistance of 52% (sustained) or 94% (burst) in order for the Soma Prime to outperform.

 

How's that for hard mathematical evidence? Your required elemental resistance is scarcely any lower than the amount it would take to make an MK-1 Braton beat an Amprex. Guess my claim wasn't quite such hyperbole after all.

[cx-dave]

2 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

"Yesterday's Sortie" being the one that had elemental enhancement and therefore resistances to all elements, which the Tonkor is comprised of almost entirely where the Soma Prime is not?

You could argue a Mk-1 Braton being better than an Amprex under that skewed logic.

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

 

How's that for hard mathematical evidence? Your required elemental resistance is scarcely any lower than the amount it would take to make an MK-1 Braton beat an Amprex. Guess my claim wasn't quite such hyperbole after all.

My comment was based on your statement of the Tonkor comprising almost entirely of elemental damage, which unlike the Aprex it clearly isn't. For the remainder, you only reaffirmed that fire rate made the biggest difference with Lephantis.

 

1 hour ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

ok, so even if once in a blue moon there was a mission with a single target (in what's usually considered a "horde game") taking more DPS from another weapon, how is this supposed to turn the discussion around? it's completely negletable.

edit: also the fact alot of other things in this game are broken doesn't make the tonkor any less OP.

Already wrote and shown earlier that lower-end fodder can be killed faster by other means as well. Therefore, in the bigger picture the Tonkor isn't the game breaker it's claimed to be here.