Does Nekros need a rework?

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

Hey there people. I have been recently talking with some friends and Warframe stuff and what we all agreed is that Nekros is kinda underwelming for his theme. Hes supposed to be the lord of the dead, no the lord of Death itself yet his skill set feels lacking in substance. Most of the time Nekros feels more like a janitor, staying on the back and smashing that 3 button to Desecrate death enemies, and i do mean smashing cause the skill seems bugged and sometimes the enemeis just dont get desecrated. He needs skills more oriented on the undeath, soul reaping, depriving their very existence. I should feel like im the lord of Death not the janitor, just another day at work cleaning Grineer ships of all the death bodies....

Of course im no expert and i would like your guy's opinion on this, does Nekros need a rework? I want the opinion of people who has actually played Nekros and understand his skills. The more you know the better.

What you guys think?

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

The thing is he's actually the best summoner frame in the game. The shadow AI might be lackluster, but then again the AI in the entire game isn't exactly quality. Also I never saw him as a "Lord of Death" or "Grim Reaper". He's a Necromancer. A figure lingering in the shadows. Desecrating the dead and bringing them to life. People abuse Desecrate because it's a way around RNG, not because his other abilities suck, but because the community abuses him rather than bringing out his true potential. Funny thing is a lot of people demand Desecrate be removed, but of DE did actually do that so many people would get mad.

Soul Punch, Terrify, SotD are all great abilities. Even Desecrate when not constantly abused, but that's not the abilities fault.

thats just my view on it though. I know there's a large chance that Desecrate will be removed. But when that happens people will just use Hydroid and Atlas, not really solving the issue at all.

[Brosephelon]

I don't think so, sometimes he might be a loot bot but he still useful other abilities even if some people really love hyperbole.  

Yeah hes not going to ever be a damage monster, hes never going to be an unkillable tank, hes not supposed to be any of those things hes a support/utility caster.  spammable ragdoll on 1, aoe fear and armor shred on 2 (which is actually pretty good if useless in speed runs), the almight loot-o-matic on 3 that also allows him to sustain forever with Equilibrium, and his 4 is "ok" its just that to maximize his 4 he sacrifices the the strengths of 2 and 3 which are in general much better abilities and his 4 even when maximized isn't worth those sacrifices.  

The problem with Nekros isn't the warframe itself, its people wanting "the god of death" they want to grab a scythe have an all black color scheme and go around killing the universe in an unstoppable god of death fashion.  Its their personal fantasy they want, and there is nothing wrong with that but at the same time its not a fantasy Nekros is designed support.  

[MarcusGraves]

Rework? honestly no, he just needs a few things to bring him up a little more.

-Max shield 300 instead of 270, the 666 shield joke with max redirection was funny on release but no more of that.

-While it obviously wouldn't make sense on enemies fleeing for their lives, a little slow on Terrify would be a nice soft CC add on to it and when I mean a slow add on I mean a very minor 10% that is not affected by power str.

-Desecrate having a percent chance to spawn a shadow from a dead enemy would be a very fun and helpful addition for trying to take pressure off teammates during a fight and causing a little chaos.

-Trim 0.5-1 sec of cast time off Shadows of the Dead, it takes soooooo long.

[hukurokuju5]

not compared to many other derpframes, no..

[TwiceDead]

Nekros is kinda great, with the only flaw in his kit being Desecrate, as it has the same flaw as any loot-generating ability.

He has solid damage mitigation for both himself and his teammates in forms of Shadow of the Dead, regardless if the AI can kill anything or not, and pretty decent CC with Terrify. Soul Punch with the augment Soul Survivor can be life-saving, but you'll have to actually manage your energy-pool more as a trade-off, but it's still pretty neat, and the augment for Shadows of the Dead (Shield of Shadows) can allow him up to 90% DR, which is crazy strong, granted you need a lot of Power Strength to get those numbers. 

I'd like to see a higher health-pool on him though as shields are proving to be more and more useless (Instant slash-damage, toxin, etc etc), but honestly, he will never be god-tier like Nova or Ash, but he has a solid kit already if people would just be willing to utilize it. 

[AKKILLA]

*New Ultimate

*Destroy Desecrate make it a innate passive aura

*Exalted Reaper Ulti Stance 

:D

[Burnthesteak87]

I think Summoner Classes in video games need some kind of macro-management mechanic for their pets, but in Warframe it's something I think isn't achievable.

I totally dislike most of the concepts people throw around, trying to copy Exalted Blades and GW2 Necromancer's  sick design.

So, no, Nekros just needs QoL changes like:

• making Desacrate an Upkeep Aura and stop rerolling Loot Tables, so it stays just for Energy and Vitality;
• eventually applying a drastic change to Soul Punch;
• more synergy between its skills;
• allow Soul Punch to drive Shadows' aggro toward a target;
• giving it 25-50 more energy (in a perfect PowerStr build it needs those extra energy);
• quickening its casting time, breaking Natural Talent dependency;
• a passive drawing Vitality Orbs ala Carrier's Vacuum (so I can throw that Sentinel out of my ship);
• etc.

It also wouldn't be bad seeing some new Augment turning Terror into a "Necrotic Bomb" or "Life Drain" skill...

Some cheap ideas here:

PS:
It's vital that Desacrate would stop being a farming tool and reworked into a utility synergic skill.
The best scenario is it would stop dropping loot table and instead focus more on Vitality and Energy Orbs, maybe garanting a 50 points orb instead than the usual 25 points orb.
Then adding some other synergy with its other skills. Like fueling or boosting its other powers. Power through Death, refining more the thematic.
Ex. "Boosting Shadows Movement and Attackspeed (X seconds duration) for every successful corpse Desacrated" or 
      "Increasing Shadows duration by 1 second for every successful corpse Desacrated"..

PPS:
What about Pets management through the "G" Waypoint command?
On a target it drives Shadows' attention on that target, on a surface forces Shadows staying stationary on the area around the Waypoint.

 

Edited March 18, 2016 by Burnthesteak87

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

6 hours ago, AKKILLA said:

*New Ultimate

*Destroy Desecrate make it a innate passive aura

*Exalted Reaper Ulti Stance 

:D

Eh Reaper stance? not really what would be the point, there are other ways to ivoke death than just carrying a Scyte arund, you can always use a Chainsaw :D

 

29 minutes ago, Burnthesteak87 said:

I think Summoner Classes in video games need some kind of macro-management mechanic for their pets, but in Warframe it's something I think isn't achievable.

I totally dislike most of the concepts people throw around, trying to copy Exalted Blades and GW2 Necromancer's  sick design.

So, no, Nekros just needs QoL changes like:

• making Desacrate an Upkeep Aura and stop rerolling Loot Tables, so it stays just for Energy and Vitality;
• eventually applying a drastic change to Soul Punch;
• more synergy between its skills;
• allow Soul Punch to drive Shadows' aggro toward a target;
• giving it 25-50 more energy (in a perfect PowerStr build it needs those extra energy);
• quickening its casting time, breaking Natural Talent dependency;
• a passive drawing Vitality Orbs ala Carrier's Vacuum (so I can throw that Sentinel out of my ship);
• etc.

It also wouldn't be bad seeing some new Augment turning Terror into a "Necrotic Bomb" or "Life Drain" skill...

Some cheap ideas here:

 

AS a fan of Pet management classess i agree. This is why i wanted to ask because i felt his skills where like "Bad" per se but a little lackluster for what i felt was his theme.
I didnt want to wreck my brain thinking for a Rework if his kit only needs a few fixes.

SPeciially love your idea for Soul punch pull agrro for Shadows an Desecrate as an Aura cause thats the first thing that turneed me off for him. As i said i felt more like a janitor.

 

9 hours ago, Brosephelon said:

I don't think so, sometimes he might be a loot bot but he still useful other abilities even if some people really love hyperbole.  

Yeah hes not going to ever be a damage monster, hes never going to be an unkillable tank, hes not supposed to be any of those things hes a support/utility caster.  spammable ragdoll on 1, aoe fear and armor shred on 2 (which is actually pretty good if useless in speed runs), the almight loot-o-matic on 3 that also allows him to sustain forever with Equilibrium, and his 4 is "ok" its just that to maximize his 4 he sacrifices the the strengths of 2 and 3 which are in general much better abilities and his 4 even when maximized isn't worth those sacrifices.  

The problem with Nekros isn't the warframe itself, its people wanting "the god of death" they want to grab a scythe have an all black color scheme and go around killing the universe in an unstoppable god of death fashion.  Its their personal fantasy they want, and there is nothing wrong with that but at the same time its not a fantasy Nekros is designed support.  

I dunno with the Augment and a few mods the Shadow of the Death could be a powerful skill

 

10 hours ago, (XB1)DRG JupiterIvan said:

The thing is he's actually the best summoner frame in the game. The shadow AI might be lackluster, but then again the AI in the entire game isn't exactly quality. Also I never saw him as a "Lord of Death" or "Grim Reaper". He's a Necromancer. A figure lingering in the shadows. Desecrating the dead and bringing them to life. People abuse Desecrate because it's a way around RNG, not because his other abilities suck, but because the community abuses him rather than bringing out his true potential. Funny thing is a lot of people demand Desecrate be removed, but of DE did actually do that so many people would get mad.

Soul Punch, Terrify, SotD are all great abilities. Even Desecrate when not constantly abused, but that's not the abilities fault.

thats just my view on it though. I know there's a large chance that Desecrate will be removed. But when that happens people will just use Hydroid and Atlas, not really solving the issue at all.

I would like Desecrate to be change to as an Aura or Passive of some sort so people can focus on supporting their team mates instead of just abusing the Skill. Not that i blame them cause sometimes RNG can be just mean.

Tough i got to defend Warframe AI. Grineer and Corpus AI is pretty solid, specially Grineer. Its the Infested who are pretty dump,

[phoenix1992]

Dunno, Necros can be ridiculously tanky when he feels like it.
I wish to point out, that he is one of the frames that should be played with Equilibrium, since that mod turns him into mister spam-a-lot.

[(PSN)meeeone]

15 hours ago, MarcusGraves said:

Rework? honestly no, he just needs a few things to bring him up a little more.

-Max shield 300 instead of 270, the 666 shield joke with max redirection was funny on release but no more of that.

-While it obviously wouldn't make sense on enemies fleeing for their lives, a little slow on Terrify would be a nice soft CC add on to it and when I mean a slow add on I mean a very minor 10% that is not affected by power str.

-Desecrate having a percent chance to spawn a shadow from a dead enemy would be a very fun and helpful addition for trying to take pressure off teammates during a fight and causing a little chaos.

-Trim 0.5-1 sec of cast time off Shadows of the Dead, it takes soooooo long.

These,and don't have the timer start counting down until the complete summoning animation finishes.

 It usually starts halfway through costing 2-5 seconds of minion life time.

[Gurpgork]

I've been skimming this thread for a while, and I just thought it was high time that I weighed in on some of the things said. 

18 hours ago, (XB1)DRG JupiterIvan said:

The thing is he's actually the best summoner frame in the game.

Eh. This is true, but it's not really saying much. I mean, his only competition in the summoner department comes from Atlas and Inaros. Atlas's Rumblers don't scale (although they're damn tanky), and Inaros's Sand Shadows are a blatant gimmick.

18 hours ago, (XB1)DRG JupiterIvan said:

Even Desecrate when not constantly abused, but that's not the abilities fault.

I beg to differ. That is absolutely the ability's fault. 

14 hours ago, AKKILLA said:

*Exalted Reaper Ulti Stance 

Not only are the Exalted Blade copy/pastes overdone and generic, but it also wouldn't make sense on Nekros.

Nekros's kit focuses on keeping enemies away from him. Soul Punch sends them into orbit, Terrify gets them running away, and Shadows of the Dead gives you a meatshield. Even Desecrate promotes staying out of the front lines. The only thing in Nekros's kit that really supports a melee playstyle is Shield of Shadows, and that's an augment, not a baseline function. It would make as much sense as giving a melee ult to Nyx or Vauban.

Not to mention that it would almost certainly be a worse scythe than an Anku with Body Count + Blood Rush, if Primal Fury is anything to go by. 

8 hours ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

I would like Desecrate to be change to as an Aura or Passive of some sort so people can focus on supporting their team mates instead of just abusing the Skill.

Personally, I'd rather see Desecrate replaced with something that actually provides team support so that Nekros players are no longer expected to abuse the skill instead of supporting their team.

________________________________________________________________________

Yes, OP, I strongly believe that Nekros needs a rework. And here are my personal suggestions as to how that could happen.

The numbers are all open for negotiation.

Spoiler

Base Stats: Energy increased to 150 base, 225 at rank 30.

Passive: Sadist - Enemies killed within a 10 meter radius restore 15 health and 5 energy for Nekros. Energy restore is doubled if kills are credited to Nekros.

Soul Punch

• In addition to its base damage, now deals 0.8 finisher damage for every hitpoint the target has lost. This damage is affected by Strength mods.
• Now soft locks onto targets like Rip Line.
• Can be cast on the move and does not interrupt actions like reloading and firing.
• Enemies struck by this ability release a 180 degree shockwave that knocks down enemies in a 10 meter radius, affected by Range mods. Enemies hit with this secondary shockwave are dealt 60% of the damage caused by Soul Punch.

Soul Survivor - Any health, shields, or energy lost by Nekros during the cast will restore these values to the downed ally. Any excess will be turned into Overshields.

Terrify

• Armor reduction increased to 50%.
• Now applies a 20% slow.
• Range increased to 20 meters.

Desecrate

Nekros harvests the essence of his slain enemies to fuel a necrotic blast that heals his allies and destroys his enemies.

• Now counts as a one handed action.
• Corpses have a 100% chance to be Desecrated.
• Loot and health orbs removed. In their place, Nekros gains a buff from every enemy Desecrated (I haven’t decided the exact effect yet). This buff can stack up to 10 times, affected by Strength mods.
• Holding 3 consumes all active stacks and inflicts 140 Toxin damage per stack with a guaranteed proc in a cone in front of Nekros. Enemies under the effect of the Toxin proc release a pulse when killed that restores a percentage of that unit’s health to all nearby allies, companions, and summoned units.

Despoil - Health cost increased to 75. The heal pulses caused by the nuke portion of Desecrate restore 15 energy instead of health, affected by Strength mods.

Shadows of the Dead

• Shadows ignore cover, will attempt to follow Nekros, and attack the units most dangerous to him (Heavy units and Nullifiers).
• Now becomes a toggled aura (like Provoke) with a 20 meter range. Enemies that die in this radius drain 15 energy from Nekros (affected by Efficiency mods) and raise a Shadow of the Dead.
• Shadows of the Dead no longer have a duration.
• Enemies affected by debuffs from Nekros’s other abilities (including knockdowns from Soul Punch) draw the aggression of nearby Shadows. Enemies suffering from Desecrate’s Toxin procs take the highest priority, followed by enemies knocked down by Soul Punch.
• Holding 4 while the aura is active will instantly summon all existing Shadows to Nekros's location, without any cast time or energy cost.

 

Edited March 16, 2016 by Gurpgork
There we go. Got the formatting all figured out.

[IronWolfKnight]

Personally I think Desecrate should allow Nekros to summon an obelisk that desecrates any corpses within range similarly to how Path of Exile's Devouring Totem works. This change would mean that Nekros is able to join in on the action without constantly spamming Desecrate.

Edited March 15, 2016 by IronWolfKnight

[Kaisser]

Only thing he nees is some kind of change to desecrate to be more carpal tunnel friendly

[phoenix1992]

Okay, here is a change Idea from me - do mind, that I am not asking for a change, but since you guys are at it, and some are just begging for buffs, I may as well as give an alternative.
Drain desecrate - tap ze button, and Nekros will create an aura of sorts, that will drain his energy/health, desecrate and keep his hands free. Tap again, when you start to feel too anemic.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

23 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

I've been skimming this thread for a while, and I just thought it was high time that I weighed in on some of the things said. 

Eh. This is true, but it's not really saying much. I mean, his only competition in the summoner department comes from Atlas and Inaros. Atlas's Rumblers don't scale (although they're damn tanky), and Inaros's Sand Shadows are a blatant gimmick.

I beg to differ. That is absolutely the ability's fault. 

Not only are the Exalted Blade copy/pastes overdone and generic, but it also wouldn't make sense on Nekros.

Nekros's kit focuses on keeping enemies away from him. Soul Punch sends them into orbit, Terrify gets them running away, and Shadows of the Dead gives you a meatshield. Even Desecrate promotes staying out of the front lines. The only thing in Nekros's kit that really supports a melee playstyle is Shield of Shadows, and that's an augment, not a baseline function. It would make as much sense as giving a melee ult to Nyx or Vauban.

Not to mention that it would almost certainly be a worse scythe than an Anku with Body Count + Blood Rush, if Primal Fury is anything to go by. 

Personally, I'd rather see Desecrate replaced with something that actually provides team support so that Nekros players are no longer expected to abuse the skill instead of supporting their team.

________________________________________________________________________

Yes, OP, I strongly believe that Nekros needs a rework. And here are my personal suggestions as to how that could happen.

The numbers are all open for negotiation.

  Hide contents

Base Stats: Energy increased to 150 base, 225 at rank 30.

Passive: Sadist - Enemies killed within a 10 meter radius restore 15 health and 5 energy for Nekros. Energy restore is doubled if kills are credited to Nekros.

Soul Punch

• In addition to its base damage, now deals 0.8 finisher damage for every hitpoint the target has lost. This damage is affected by Strength mods.
• Now soft locks onto targets like Rip Line.
• Can be cast on the move and does not interrupt actions like reloading and firing.
• Enemies struck by this ability release a 180 degree shockwave that knocks down enemies in a 10 meter radius, affected by Range mods. Enemies hit with this secondary shockwave are dealt 60% of the damage caused by Soul Punch.

Soul Survivor - Any health, shields, or energy lost by Nekros during the cast will restore these values to the downed ally. Any excess will be turned into Overshields.

Terrify

• Armor reduction increased to 50%.
• Now applies a 20% slow.
• Range increased to 20 meters.

Desecrate

Nekros harvests the essence of his slain enemies to fuel a necrotic blast that heals his allies and destroys his enemies.

• Now counts as a one handed action.
• Corpses have a 100% chance to be Desecrated.
• Loot and health orbs removed. In their place, Nekros gains a buff from every enemy Desecrated (I haven’t decided the exact effect yet). This buff can stack up to 10 times, affected by Strength mods.
• Holding 3 consumes all active stacks and inflicts 140 Toxin damage per stack with a guaranteed proc in a cone in front of Nekros. Enemies under the effect of the Toxin proc release a pulse when killed that restores a percentage of that unit’s health to all nearby allies, companions, and summoned units.

Despoil - Health cost increased to 75. The heal pulses caused by the nuke portion of Desecrate restore 15 energy instead of health, affected by Strength mods.

Shadows of the Dead

• Shadows ignore cover, will attempt to follow Nekros, and attack the units most dangerous to him (Heavy units and Nullifiers).
• Now becomes a toggled aura (like Provoke) with a 20 meter range. Enemies that die in this radius drain 15 energy from Nekros (affected by Efficiency mods) and raise a Shadow of the Dead.
• Shadows of the Dead no longer have a duration.
• Enemies affected by debuffs from Nekros’s other abilities (including knockdowns from Soul Punch) draw the aggression of nearby Shadows. Enemies suffering from Desecrate’s Toxin procs take the highest priority, followed by enemies knocked down by Soul Punch.

 

This is the best idea i have heard so far. Now what if holding a charge of Desecrate gives him a sort of Toxic aura that increases in radius the more chargers he holds. So its kinda like coosing between the aura or the blast.

[Burnthesteak87]

Also the idea of Desecrate becoming a Hold spell isn't that bad. It would at least stop that boring E spam.

[Gurpgork]

35 minutes ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

Now what if holding a charge of Desecrate gives him a sort of Toxic aura that increases in radius the more chargers he holds. 

I was more thinking that it would be something that increased in power the more charges he has, rather than range. 

I've been thinking about the Toxic aura, and I don't think it should be that exactly, since this could be redundant with the nuke, but it could be something similar. The idea I just thought of is making it decay enemy health very slowly. It would be a very low value, like 1-2% max health per second at max stacks. Although you'd have to go to obscenely high levels to really make that worthwhile, since at low levels, enemies would die too fast for it to be useful. So I'm probably going to come up with something else, since a percentage based life drain has to be a very small value for it to not be disgustingly overpowered. 

1 hour ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

So its kinda like coosing between the aura or the blast.

This is exactly what I had in mind.

[Archwizard]

I'd like to see him focused more on minion summoning and minion support. Right now the main failing of Desecrate in his kit, in my opinion, is that while it provides a method of healing your allies, it provides the only possible way DE could have possibly thought of that cannot actually be extended to support summoned minions. And that consists entirely of RNG and nothing else. _{^{And that people scream at me to cast it any time I'm on Nekros even though it cripples my kit.}}

I say, scrap it for a life drain with a radial healing component. Still a support skill, benefits his minions, good day all around. Give it Viral damage for good measure, since it's thematic in multiple ways and useful to charge his ultimate.

Beyond that, the AI on his ultimate needs some tweaks, Terrify could use a slow and Soul Punch could just use really any practical purpose beyond the augment.

22 hours ago, Brosephelon said:

The problem with Nekros isn't the warframe itself, its people wanting "the god of death" they want to grab a scythe have an all black color scheme and go around killing the universe in an unstoppable god of death fashion.  Its their personal fantasy they want, and there is nothing wrong with that but at the same time its not a fantasy Nekros is designed support.  

The "fantasy" that DE released him to appeal to was that of a necromancer. It's in his bloody name - Nekros, or νεκρός, the conjugate "dead" in νεκρομαντεία, nekromanteia, "necromancy".

Once upon a time, there was a Design Council poll asking players to suggest a theme for a Warframe. Hundreds of people cast their submissions, DE whittled them down to a handful. The winning votes, in order, were Antimatter, Necromancy, Berserker, Eagle, and Earth. From that poll, we got Nova... and then Nekros, Valkyr, a long debate over Oberon, Zephyr, and eventually Atlas.
So I cannot stress enough, Nekros was based on a suggestion from the players - someone's fantasy of seeing the necromancer gaming archetype adapted into Warframe. That "fantasy" that you mock birthed him.

Oh, we got a guy with a scythe in a dark color scheme alright, but he's still no necromancer. He's a farmer. I get it's a farming tool, but you don't bring a scythe to the battlefield for that.

Scott hijacked a perfectly workable and unique theme with a yet untapped potential in Warframe - that of a minion master - to instead open the floodgates and tell everyone it's okay to want frame X to have the ability to make money out of thin air, as long as it's an incredibly painful playstyle to force upon someone else in your party.
And then, given the opportunity to address its many flaws, he cracked jokes about it instead. (Devstream 45, if you think I'm kidding.)

Forgive us if we're a bit displeased.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Archwizard

[Old_King_Belgothia]

I think enemies killed with Soul Punch should have priority as being summoned as zombies later. That way you can pick high value targets that you want to definitely summon later on as zombies. They don't even have to be killed by the Soul Punch, just marked by it, and then as long as they're killed by Nekros they count as being a priority summon. Zombies take too long to react. Once you summon them they just stand around for a while, try to figure out who to attack etc. They should be quicker out the gate.

[Inmemoratus]

13 hours ago, Archwizard said:

I'd like to see him focused more on minion summoning and minion support. Right now the main failing of Desecrate in his kit, in my opinion, is that while it provides a method of healing your allies, it provides the only possible way DE could have possibly thought of that cannot actually be extended to support summoned minions. And that consists entirely of RNG and nothing else. _{^{And that people scream at me to cast it any time I'm on Nekros even though it cripples my kit.}}

I say, scrap it for a life drain with a radial healing component. Still a support skill, benefits his minions, good day all around. Give it Viral damage for good measure, since it's thematic in multiple ways and useful to charge his ultimate.

Beyond that, the AI on his ultimate needs some tweaks, Terrify could use a slow and Soul Punch could just use really any practical purpose beyond the augment.

The "fantasy" that DE released him to appeal to was that of a necromancer. It's in his bloody name - Nekros, or νεκρός, the conjugate "dead" in νεκρομαντεία, nekromanteia, "necromancy".

Once upon a time, there was a Design Council poll asking players to suggest a theme for a Warframe. Hundreds of people cast their submissions, DE whittled them down to a handful. The winning votes, in order, were Antimatter, Necromancy, Berserker, Eagle, and Earth. From that poll, we got Nova... and then Nekros, Valkyr, a long debate over Oberon, Zephyr, and eventually Atlas.
So I cannot stress enough, Nekros was based on a suggestion from the players - someone's fantasy of seeing the necromancer gaming archetype adapted into Warframe. That "fantasy" that you mock birthed him.

Oh, we got a guy with a scythe in a dark color scheme alright, but he's still no necromancer. He's a farmer. I get it's a farming tool, but you don't bring a scythe to the battlefield for that.

Scott hijacked a perfectly workable and unique theme with a yet untapped potential in Warframe - that of a minion master - to instead open the floodgates and tell everyone it's okay to want frame X to have the ability to make money out of thin air, as long as it's an incredibly painful playstyle to force upon someone else in your party.
And then, given the opportunity to address its many flaws, he cracked jokes about it instead. (Devstream 45, if you think I'm kidding.)

Forgive us if we're a bit displeased.

But how is desecrating corpses not a necromancer thing? The mechanics aside, I don't see how it thematically fails the concept.

In fact, personally I think corpse exploitation is a core aspect of necromancy in video games. The first games that come to mind for me are Diablo 2 and Guild Wars. In both cases the necromancer was designed mostly around corpse exploitation.

I mean I don't even care about the loot from Desecrate. What I like about it is that it exploits corpses for the caster's benefit. To me that's an important aspect that sets apart necromancy from other concepts.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Inmemoratus

[Archwizard]

18 minutes ago, Inmemoratus said:

But how is desecrating corpses not a necromancer thing? The mechanics aside, I don't see how it thematically fails the concept.

Aside from the fact that I didn't say anything about being thematic, and the implication you agree the mechanics fail the concept (which is really the bigger issue)?

For someone who's declared to be the "Tenno incarnation of shaman" in his profile video, Desecrating them shows very little respect for the dead. At best you're a scavenger searching their pockets for loose change, at worst you're literally chopping people up for parts, both thematically and mechanically. And honestly, there are way too many other things that could have filled the slot.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Archwizard

[Inmemoratus]

2 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Aside from the fact that I didn't say anything about being thematic, and the implication you agree the mechanics fail the concept (which is really the bigger issue)?

For someone who's declared to be the "Tenno incarnation of shaman" in his profile video, Desecrating them shows very little respect for the dead. You're literally chopping people up for parts, both thematically and mechanically. And honestly, there are way too many other things that could have filled the slot.

Again, corpse exploitation is an extremely core theme to video game necromancy. Also, since when do the Tenno have respect for their enemies (the Grineer, Corpus, and Infested)? I mean there's even a tattered Grineer flag as a syandana isn't there?

Edited March 16, 2016 by Inmemoratus

[Archwizard]

Just now, Inmemoratus said:

Again, corpse exploitation is an extremely core theme to video game necromancy. Since when do the Tenno have respect for their enemies (the grineer, corpus, and infested)? I mean there's even a tattered grineer flag as a syandana isn't there?

If it ain't about having respect for the dead, DE shouldn't have tried to finagle his theme by calling him a shaman.

Again, I'm more worried about the mechanical exploitation of corpses. They last so briefly in Warframe it would be hard to weaponize them - which is normally what they're used for anyway.

Besides, you don't need a powerful mage with control over the dead to search through pockets after you freshly murdered somebody (that's the point of having a drop system in the first place).

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

18 hours ago, Burnthesteak87 said:

Also the idea of Desecrate becoming a Hold spell isn't that bad. It would at least stop that boring E spam.

Exactly, it just becomes a chore when your trying to have fun and your teammates keep yaping that why arent you desecreating.

 

18 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

I was more thinking that it would be something that increased in power the more charges he has, rather than range. 

I've been thinking about the Toxic aura, and I don't think it should be that exactly, since this could be redundant with the nuke, but it could be something similar. The idea I just thought of is making it decay enemy health very slowly. It would be a very low value, like 1-2% max health per second at max stacks. Although you'd have to go to obscenely high levels to really make that worthwhile, since at low levels, enemies would die too fast for it to be useful. So I'm probably going to come up with something else, since a percentage based life drain has to be a very small value for it to not be disgustingly overpowered. 

This is exactly what I had in mind.

Sounds like a plan.

13 hours ago, Archwizard said:

I'd like to see him focused more on minion summoning and minion support. Right now the main failing of Desecrate in his kit, in my opinion, is that while it provides a method of healing your allies, it provides the only possible way DE could have possibly thought of that cannot actually be extended to support summoned minions. And that consists entirely of RNG and nothing else. _{^{And that people scream at me to cast it any time I'm on Nekros even though it cripples my kit.}}

I say, scrap it for a life drain with a radial healing component. Still a support skill, benefits his minions, good day all around. Give it Viral damage for good measure, since it's thematic in multiple ways and useful to charge his ultimate.

Beyond that, the AI on his ultimate needs some tweaks, Terrify could use a slow and Soul Punch could just use really any practical purpose beyond the augment.

The "fantasy" that DE released him to appeal to was that of a necromancer. It's in his bloody name - Nekros, or νεκρός, the conjugate "dead" in νεκρομαντεία, nekromanteia, "necromancy".

Once upon a time, there was a Design Council poll asking players to suggest a theme for a Warframe. Hundreds of people cast their submissions, DE whittled them down to a handful. The winning votes, in order, were Antimatter, Necromancy, Berserker, Eagle, and Earth. From that poll, we got Nova... and then Nekros, Valkyr, a long debate over Oberon, Zephyr, and eventually Atlas.
So I cannot stress enough, Nekros was based on a suggestion from the players - someone's fantasy of seeing the necromancer gaming archetype adapted into Warframe. That "fantasy" that you mock birthed him.

Oh, we got a guy with a scythe in a dark color scheme alright, but he's still no necromancer. He's a farmer. I get it's a farming tool, but you don't bring a scythe to the battlefield for that.

Scott hijacked a perfectly workable and unique theme with a yet untapped potential in Warframe - that of a minion master - to instead open the floodgates and tell everyone it's okay to want frame X to have the ability to make money out of thin air, as long as it's an incredibly painful playstyle to force upon someone else in your party.
And then, given the opportunity to address its many flaws, he cracked jokes about it instead. (Devstream 45, if you think I'm kidding.)

Forgive us if we're a bit displeased.

The idea of desecrating corpses is a good idea but the way it turned out is just a chore, its incredibly boring and not really that much of a boon to your team in the great scheme of things really. When it comes to choosing a frame for a mission would you choose the guy who will just sit there spamming 3 all day long or any of the other more fun frames that actively supports your team like Impaling people with Nehza or flying around with Zephir or bashing people with Atlas.

 

1 minute ago, Archwizard said:

Aside from the fact that I didn't say anything about being thematic, and the implication you agree the mechanics fail the concept (which is really the bigger issue)?

For someone who's declared to be the "Tenno incarnation of shaman" in his profile video, Desecrating them shows very little respect for the dead. You're literally chopping people up for parts, both thematically and mechanically. And honestly, there are way too many other things that could have filled the slot.

Exactly, why call him a shaman anyways? hes a necromancer, he doesnt care about the dead so long as they help him