Please remove the possibility of getting common mods from rare mod transmutation

[Bibliothekar]

32 minutes ago, Manyc said:

Transmutation RNG isn't supposed to be better than PvE RNG, otherwise people would just simply farm Creds and a few rare mods and get what they wanted from Transmutation and then ignore PvE.

Does not compute. As you said, you still have to play the game to get the mods and credits. And since there's nothing to do outside of missions in this game, the only point in getting those mods is to try them out and see how they might fit to your play style.

Just for comparison: Borderlands The Pre-Sequel has gun transmutation. But they actually have rules, recipes, that dictate what you'll get for a certain input. For example, use three pistols, get a pistol. Use three purple weapons, get a purple (with tiny chance of moonshine - basically purple with conditional bonus). And so on. All the guns are still randomly generated, but you have at least some control over the result.

Warframe on the other hand has only one rule: The resulting mod can't be of higher rarity than the lowest rarity mod used. And that's just plain bad. We're not talking about real life gambling here, it's a flipping game! I can't use those mods anywhere outside of Warframe (as opposed to money I might win e.g. at the poker table). So if they slap such a huge disincentive on that feature - well, I'm just not going to use it. Sucks for the dev who spent a month of his time on it, but what can you do.

24 minutes ago, Tzolkat said:

I think that internally, the tier of the mods you put in should be numbered 0-2, and the tier of mod you get back should be the floor of the average. So, if you put in four rares [avg(2, 2, 2, 2) = 2], you are guaranteed another rare. If you put in three rares and a common [avg(2, 2, 2, 0) = 1.5 = 1], you will get an uncommon. It's a more predictable system.

That actually sounds like a good idea. Communicate it to the player somehow and you're set.

[Tzolkat]

7 minutes ago, Manyc said:

I agree with you on the part where you should probably give them to new players / clan-mates. Helping the next one is always the best. In term of powering fusion it's a much bigger waste, probably of the same size as you consider that it's a waste using them in Transmutation.

You can get a fair amount of fusion power from duplicates with the same polarity, and the result is guaranteed. With transmutation as it currently is, there is a massive risk involved, which has to be factored into the cost of the process. If I put in four rare mods of a certain polarity in, I get a common of that polarity back, because RNG. Now I am out a large number of credits, and have lost a significant amount of fusion energy. The probability of such an occurrence seems fairly high, from my experiments with transmutation, and so because of this, it is significantly more wasteful in its current state.

15 minutes ago, Manyc said:

I can't agree with the first part of this. How can you think about making a gamble predictable? How do you think gambling works? Just because that's what Transmutation is supposed to be, a gambling system!

But I could agree with the last part. Just like as you increase the chances by using higher rarity mods (being using 4 rares gives higher chances of getting a rare than using 3r +1u or anything below it) using ranked mods for higher chances could be a thing. Just wasteful with the current trading we have as you'd get more plat out of a single R10 mod than you'd probably pay to actually buy the mod you're looking for from another player.

The word transmute does not give the connotation of a gamble, and the system doesn't even follow the same pattern as a gambling system. As evidence, I point to transmute cores, which guarantee the polarity of the resulting mod. If it were meant to be purely a gamble, why make something to guarantee one trait of the outcome? Terminology aside, the point here is that even as a gambling system, it fails. The risk-reward ratio is so hopelessly unbalanced in favor of the 'house' that it's laughable.

In a traditional transmutation, something is put forward to be the elements, energy is applied, and the result is something else. This is typically not a pure gamble; what you put in in some way directly determines what you get out, and there is some repeat-ability to the process. Applying this to Warframe, the mods are the elements, and the credits are the energy. To follow the rules of a traditional transmutation, at least one trait of the elements (mods) must directly and predictably influence the outcome. The most obvious candidate is the tier of the mods, hence the proposed formula. It ensures at least one trait can be assured, justifying the application of energy (credits). Then, you can guarantee a second trait, polarity, with a transmute core. Other traits and specifics are left up to chance, with or without modifiers to balance the risk involved.

In a gambling system, all outcomes are left up to chance, and the potential rewards are always greater than what is being risked. In Warframe's case, it only works when you use only common cores with the intent of trying to get a rare one back, and even then, the odds are not great, and the credit cost isn't justifiable when you are putting four mods in, and getting only one back. You are essentially paying for the 'house' to allow you to place your bet. The addition of a RNG modifier like I suggested with fused mods affecting the probability of getting a mod you don't have already, while still treating transmutation as it currently exists as a gambling system, only exacerbates the imbalance that is being discussed in this thread. It's simply not worth it to risk so much to get so little.

1 hour ago, Manyc said:

Let's keep it rational here. This thread shows an extremely minority of people who dislike the gambling system. We need to keep in mind that there's thousands of players out there still using Transmutation with a purpose / goal. Just don't use it, it's not filling up unnecessary space in your Liset nor it's in the way of other options. You can simply not use it, so there's no need to remove something from the other players just because 'we' don't like it

I am being perfectly rational. No-one I have spoken to, aside from you, sees any purpose in transmutation as it is, and it seems to me that it suffers from a bit of an identity crisis since changes were made to it a while back. It doesn't behave like a pure gambling system because the risk outweighs the reward most of the time, and transmute cores short-circuit some of the RNG. But it also doesn't behave like a transmutation system, because the RNG is stacked heavily against the player, and for the most part lacks any logical flow to guide the process. It needs to be rebalanced regardless of which kind of system its intended to be. It could be, though, that it is a feature which is easily ignored enough that it might not warrant attention from DE, in which case, I would be in favor of its removal and possible replacement with another system/feature.

[Noabettiet]

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

exactly!

no it isn't. Rare Warframe Abilities was a 25% refund. now you get Common and Uncommon Mods in exact percentage in their place.
how is that better?

Your "rare warframe abilities" were the most unnecessary fodder ever to exist in warframe, since most of those ability mods usually would come with the warframe itself and wouldn't require a lot to level to their maximum potential at all.

They were also fairly easy to acquire and you'd often have huge stacks of them. 
Them existing was just filling, clustering the already huge mod drop tables for no reason and making transmutation a huge waste of time. (more than usual)

So no, i don't miss them slightly and you likely only like the fact they were used mainly for transmutation, which actuality is what this suggestion is all about, returning that "25% refund" or somewhat.

But not in the form of a crappy warframe abilities mods.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Noabettiet

[taiiat]

20 minutes ago, Noabettiet said:

So no, i don't miss them slightly and you likely only like the fact they were used mainly for transmutation, which actuality is what this suggestion is all about, returning that "25% refund" or somewhat.

nope, Warframe Abilities as Mods also let Players have useful Abilities with a Lv0 Warframe, letting their Warframe participate in actually enjoyable content.
instead of having a regressive unlocking as you Level the arbitrary bar, which denotes Warframes to be completely useless for atleast 2/3 of their Levels.

giving you a partial refund for Transmuting was just a side bonus.
the chances aren't going to get better in Transmuting. period. it doesn't matter how much people ask for it. because if you have good rates at getting things from Transmuting, nobody will play the game anymore. which we have enough Players that don't play the game as it is.

Edited March 23, 2016 by taiiat

[Noabettiet]

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

nope, Warframe Abilities as Mods also let Players have useful Abilities with a Lv0 Warframe, letting their Warframe participate in actually enjoyable content.
instead of having a regressive unlocking as you Level the arbitrary bar, which denotes Warframes to be completely useless for atleast 2/3 of their Levels.

Ever thought that maybe it wouldn't be an arbitrary bar if the ability mods didn't exist? Ever thought of that?

Ever thought of how confusing it is for new players when the game didn't explain you had to "equip" the powers in order to use them? on how it didn't explain you had to fuse mods with the powers in order to improve them? 

It was an great change and i am thankfully it happened.
And like lusie said before, it is a system that is better now but still could use a lot of work. (applying this to this context)

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

giving you a partial refund for Transmuting was just a side bonus.
the chances aren't going to get better in Transmuting. period. it doesn't matter how much people ask for it. because if you have good rates at getting things from Transmuting, nobody will play the game anymore. which we have enough Players that don't play the game as it is.

Yeah, it was a side bonus, who said it wasn't? Nobody is asking for better chances, we're asking for fair chances. Do you get it now?

[taiiat]

14 minutes ago, Noabettiet said:

Ever thought that maybe it wouldn't be an arbitrary bar if the ability mods didn't exist? Ever thought of that?

it's still arbitrary. beacuse you're not allowed to apply your Abilities to do anything because 75%+ of the correct stats for them are artificially removed and the Ability does nothing.

lack of tutorial has always been a problem, and it's lack of tutorial, not problematic features.

15 minutes ago, Noabettiet said:

we're asking for fair chances.

then it's fine as it is.

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

nope, Warframe Abilities as Mods also let Players have useful Abilities with a Lv0 Warframe, letting their Warframe participate in actually enjoyable content.
instead of having a regressive unlocking as you Level the arbitrary bar, which denotes Warframes to be completely useless for atleast 2/3 of their Levels.

giving you a partial refund for Transmuting was just a side bonus.
the chances aren't going to get better in Transmuting. period. it doesn't matter how much people ask for it. because if you have good rates at getting things from Transmuting, nobody will play the game anymore. which we have enough Players that don't play the game as it is.

It's a problem with drop rates. It's objective fact that you get ice spring from transmutation waaaay more reliably than by playing the game. For example. And that's a problem with drop rate in game.

It's crap like vengeful revenant and such that creates the issue.