LoR Seems to bring out a few bad peeps :(

[CorerMaximus]

So I wanted to share and possibly discuss my recent and second (first successful) attempt at the Law Of Retribution with the core idea that LoR seems to be from my limited experience bring out the worst in the older players when dealing with players new to the mission type.

I was playing with a group of seven players, and lets focus on players A and B. Player A constantly put down three new players including me and at the last step of the second mission (last dot had to turn blue), stepped off, yelled obscene curses, and quit the game. He was also our energy trinity, which from what I understood, made the last mission very difficult. All in all, this player A put us in a tough spot (I believe the internet word applicable is trolling) and if that wasn't enough, persistently intimidated us by behaving in a superceeding manner as though the three of us were amateurs by stating we had two more shots at this until he stopped wasting his time and so on (and he ironically sabotaged us at the end)

Player B on the other hand wasn't that bad, but failed to explain anything- he simply said- do this or do that, but didn't guide as to why do we do a certain action (like step on a particular button at a particular time) and this put us in a position where we didn't learn anything about LoR as to help other players if we decided to go at it again, but also put us in a position where we couldn't discuss anything and were mechanically operated as in do this, now do that, while also being a bit humiliating as he would shout at us in all caps locks if someone decided to jump; it was a closed box where no one seemed to take up for a newer player if they made a mistake and they are at the whims of the people who've played it before, who from my experience, may be rude elitists.

I do acknowledge that we, the new players are perhaps in part to blame as well, as we should have done a bit of research before jumping into this mission, but I don't believe either party should shoulder this responsibility wholly. At the end of the mission, I was left feeling humiliated along with a strange feeling of emptiness and void, which I just wanted to share somewhere, and I believe the forums may be an apt place to share this. 

I personally wish that players new were given a bit more information as to what to do before the mission as to behave independently, I believe this may improve things a lot and make the overall environment of the LoR a bit more friendly. If possible, kindly share your thoughts on this, and if convenient, your first attempt at the LoR as well, I'm curious to hear about others first go at this.

Edit and update-

Wow, this thread really blew up, and after reading all of your comments (thanks for participating by the way, its really interesting to learn of the different fields of thought going on to this problem), I wanted to input my own two cents here as well.

A major theme across some posts were that the veterans should guide players, as in they have a duty to do so. I wanted to assert my own opinion, in that I disagree with this- no one should be forced to help a new comer if they don't want to, its the veterans own time and what they decide to do in it is up to them. They aren't obligated and should not feel obligated to or be forced to help someone if they don't want to, that would result in more hatred for newcomers as you've made them take up a responsibility as to do a task in what one can only assume to be their own leisure time. In the context of my post however, the situation was different- the veteran player knew I didn't know about LoR but looked down upon me despite knowing that I didn't know about it and asserting that they would explain me what to do- this is more a case of belittling and being egoistic, which is a wholly different issue from the responsibility of veteran players we seem to be discussing in this thread.

Another major point was that newcomers should read a wiki and watch videos- I agree with this, but to a certain extent. Aside from problems such as the newcomer not enjoying the video format of the YouTuber or having a learning deficiency which may throw reading long wikis away, it's not fun to see or read and having to memorize instructions from an external force- in a game, the player is in control of the charachter and its first hand knowledge that really sticks after multiple runs- having them having to resort wholly to a wiki or YouTube video means this knowledge they possess is second hand, and takes away the ability to effectively teach other newcomers who haven't read it. In the case of me, I do agree to a certain extent that reading a Wiki would have benefited me, but I and my other teammates approached this quest knowing I didn't know about the LoR. 

In light of this, I believe it may be both mine and the veterans players fault as to the circumstances under which the mission was conducted. In conclusion, I believe it may be everyones responsibility to help circumnavigate this issue- newcomers to do a bit of research (but one may ask, where can I find an easy to follow guide, and this is something I don't know the answer to yet, despite seeing a couple of videos), the older players to be polite (not patient, because once again, its their free time and they are not obligated to spend it helping others, and I support this decision), as well as DE to perhaps create a testing environment where newcomers can try this in a more laid back setting, or simply release a mini-guide or get started guide.

These are my own thoughts on this, feel free to disagree or agree, I'm keen on hearing your thoughts. Thanks for reading and participating in this discussion! :)

 

Edited March 26, 2016 by CorerMaximus

[MopUpCrewman]

Why were you going in a Trial with no idea what to do in the first place?

Edit: For the sake of being specific, why didn't you look up some videos on what to do before going for it? It's a bad idea as a whole.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Senpai-Pie

[PickleMonster21]

8 minutes ago, Senpai-Pie said:

Why were you going in a Trial with no idea what to do in the first place?

Edit: For the sake of being specific, why didn't you look up some videos on what to do before going for it? It's a bad idea as a whole.

I never did that. Hell, I've only done it like 3 times, 1 time was successful (not my fault though), and I'm MR.20 with over 2k hours played over 2 years. But he raises a good point. Players DO need to help others out. I was fortunate enough to be with a friend who knows the lingo of that and he instructed me what to do (although if I was to go and do it now, I'd still be slightly confused). I learned through other players helping and guiding me. Not by wasting my time on a video or on the Wiki. 

Edited March 25, 2016 by PickleMonster21

[MopUpCrewman]

1 minute ago, PickleMonster21 said:

I never did that. Hell, I've only done it like 3 times, 1 time was successful (not my fault though), and I'm MR.20 with over 2k hours played over 2 years.. But he raises a good point. Players DO need to help others out. I was fortunate enough to be with a friend who knows the lingo of that and he instructed me what to do (although if I was to go and do it now, I'd still be slightly confused). I learned through other players helping and guiding me. Not by wasting my time on a video or on the Wiki. 

You just sound lazy.

Plus, it's DE's job to explain things in THEIR game. Not other people. You have the starter player experience as an example.

[PickleMonster21]

Just now, Senpai-Pie said:

You just sound lazy.

Plus, it's DE's job to explain things in THEIR game. Not other people. You have the starter player experience as an example.

It's not laziness. It's learning by experience, which I did. If I was gonna learn by watching a video, I'd do something, maybe mess it up then be like "Hold up. Gotta re-watch this part of the video real quick". It's not laziness. It's learning by experience. Did you watch videos on how to do those new Phobos Sabotage missions? I didn't. And I learned through experience. So I mean...

[Calwon5]

I was one of the bunch of players that didn't learn how to do LoR when it first came out. Thus, I had to find some way to learn how to do it. I didn't have friends, nor do I have people in the clan to teach me. So I did something extraordinary, I went on youtube and watched some videos on it. Wow..... it didn't really help at all. So I joined a raid and follow through with it. Of course, I acted like I knew what I was doing by picking the right frames, doing the right actions, and following what players are doing. By the time I finished my first raid, I have learned all the things that I need to know in order to do it even more efficiently next time. This is all accomplished by myself, no one wanted to help a player that had no experience in the LoR, so we have to launch ourselves into the unknown. Honestly, theres no way of actually learning how things work without experiencing it yourself. The videos for me, didn't work so I had to jump right in with what I got from the videos. Then I tried to help my friends, but its hard to host a LoR while trying to teach new players. So you just try your best and tell them what to do, while trying your best to stay composed. No matter what rank you are or how long you've played, each of one of us have gone through that experience. So sometimes we need to remind ourselves of that before blaming things on the new players.

TL:DR: My first experience in the raid was tough, but I learned everything with one run through. It's hard to get the experience needed to do the LoR because no one is willing to teach new players how to do it. Thus, everyone should remind themselves of when they were in the same position as the new players.

 

 

[MopUpCrewman]

Just now, PickleMonster21 said:

It's not laziness. It's learning by experience, which I did. If I was gonna learn by watching a video, I'd do something, maybe mess it up then be like "Hold up. Gotta re-watch this part of the video real quick". It's not laziness. It's learning by experience. Did you watch videos on how to do those new Phobos Sabotage missions? I didn't. And I learned through experience. So I mean...

Now you're comparing something a lot less complicated (that is shorter and has no negative for when you fail since you can retry it instantly) to something that is much longer, consumes a key that consumes resources and takes time to build said key. Not to mention one has a valuable reward while the other doesn't.

Now you're going to compare the Nightmare version to Spy 2.0 and again, if you screwed up the mission by not knowing that (for example) the core explodes on instant contact with the electricity on the rail it will be your fault for not informing yourself and someone will most likely get angry. Some people get way too worked up though.

Players helping players is important, I can agree as much. But it's not their job. Not to mention I have gone through thoroughly explaining how certain parts work only for said new person to fail the whole mission even though I explained it. Being misinformed can be your biggest weakness anywhere, especially if the task you're not informed about requires precise teamwork.

[MopUpCrewman]

8 minutes ago, Calwon5 said:

TL:DR: My first experience in the raid was tough, but I learned everything with one run through. It's hard to get the experience needed to do the LoR because no one is willing to teach new players how to do it. Thus, everyone should remind themselves of when they were in the same position as the new players.

Odd, when I informed myself from a video I understood what I had to do perfectly. But we're getting into the territory of specifics of how well the person you watched explained and if you checked for better explanations.

So, I can't remind myself of when I was in such a position. I was new to it, sure. But I had informed myself what to do.

Also, the fact people make videos and wiki guides on these things shows players are willing to explain said things.

[Camelslayer]

Yeah I don't understand the beef some of the older players had. I mean, people had to run it blind anyway, you have to learn it somehow. Faulting someone for not knowing how to do a raid when it's their first time or so is, honestly, stupid elitist BS. Because how dare you not know how to do something you've never done before.

But unfortunately that's any game. Any high level content brings out the elitist scum in some people.

[Accelerate-]

Watch videos. As confusing and complicated it may seem at first, once you're actually doing it, it makes it much easier than if you had gone in without watching one. The first time I did it, I watched a couple of videos and got the overall goal of each stage and a relative idea of what had to be done. Going in without a single clue gimps your whole team unless everyone has a mic or something for easy communication to walk you through.

[notlamprey]

The Trials in general combine a lot of things that tend to bring out the worst in people.

It's my main reason for avoiding them - I'm just not willing to risk adding that kind of stress into what is supposed to be my leisure time.

[Necrius]

What I hate most - "meta-gamers" who demand from others to watch videos and look up the wiki. It's a major game flaw that learning a whole game mode must happen outside the game and some elitist jerks are pushing this into others.

[Hemmo67]

10 minutes ago, Necrius said:

What I hate most - "meta-gamers" who demand from others to watch videos and look up the wiki. It's a major game flaw that learning a whole game mode must happen outside the game and some elitist jerks are pushing this into others.

couldn't have said so better

[AsianLyf]

The thing is people want to succeed in doing the trial and if you waste their time by messing up again and again, and you haven't put any effort in learning how to do a trial, it would be your fault for not doing enough research. 

[Neressus-EN-]

I support this thread is very good. Experienced players have responsibilities to guide new players in a good manner. It is efficient to talk politely so new players could clearly get the idea and avoid frustration. 

[Deruser]

The trials require a lot of planning and coordination. It is best to do it together with a clan or a few players who have done it before. Toxic behaviour cannot really be avoided if you are playing with a random group.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

'Bad' people are everywhere, not just in Trials.

[MuscleVictor]

As someone who slogged through raids since day one, I can say that it's not at all easy to learn, even by watching youtube tutorials; Hek, The Jordas Verdict is still extremely confusing during the nerve sabotage, and even after watching both ISE Gaming's and Mogamu's tutorials for that section, it still doesn't make much sense to me.

I once decided to host a f**k-all training LoR run with 2 other clanmates who have never done it before, and the rest of the team from recuiting. My message even said that this a training raid, be prepared for failure. We got to the final stage before everyone else decided to call it quits, and when I asked my clan members about their experience, they were overall dissapointed or uninterested in raids altogether from that point on due to the sheer amount of frustration or expectations placed upon them by the randoms.

Moral of the story: Do not host a training run unless it is in completely controlled conditions: everyone with experience should be able to trust each other, and have a genuine intention to help the learning players to the bitter end.

[Rociel]

Mr 21, 2249 hours on Steam timer etc. etc. etc.
I did the first trial once. I didn't watch the video beforehand, just went in to help out people who got abandoned by a much needed frame there.
It was mostly new people, couple dudes gave out instruction, we were successful at the end.

I learned almost nothing from my experience there even with clear instructions. No idea why I was doing something or when it failed and when something was actually meant to happen. Discovered those things only afterwards by reading forums. It's quite clear the trial needs better instructions for people.

Why I never repeated? I believe, to be fun, the trial needs 8 people that usually play together, not just a Pick Up Group. Warframe players are really bad on cooperation. Just take sorties as an example, you usually cycle through 4-5 groups in a Spy mission there and mostly, if its successful, it's one guy doing most if not all the work (a lot of times it's me). So for trial you need double the people that actually cooperate well together - and good luck getting a pick up group like that.

Sure, you can watch the videos, read the forums, make a PUG by stating ridiculous demands, demanding certain level of mastery and asking people questions, before you go in, to make sure they know the stuff. But is it fun? Well, not for me. So I avoid the trials entirely, haven't done the second one and I regret nothing.

[RideaTear]

That's the way LoR has been since its release. Immediately people began throwing on MR restrictions and demanding experience. I can understand why, but even after watching videos you really won't know what to do unless you actually do it. After a couple runs things become clear. I went as Valkyr the first few times. She doesn't have a crucial role like a Nova, Loki, or Trinity would and you can just observe for the most part while reviving anyone who goes down. The most frustrating part of the raid if you have inexperienced people is part two. Just have a good idea of what to do and things should be fine. Don't beat yourself up about it. Every time you go you will understand it better.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

2 hours ago, CorerMaximus said:

-snip-

 

when people do the raid 9x out of 10 they have the wrong mentality. I was lucky enough to be in a clan where everyone is on friendly terms and we have raided a lot. 

 

The first mentality is to rambo it and just be as damage oriented as possible OR for everyone to have magical crystal balls and for everyone to know what they are doing. 

 

I have beaten all three raids (Lor, LoR nightmare and TJV)

And the best approach is too explain so everyone understands and to take it slow. You will get less mistakes by taking it slow and having one person who's the most experience leading the group. You need somebody to help guide people to what buttons they need to get on (like the hijack and the last part)

 

If you rush it and aren't clear or communicate well you are gonna run into problems. Anyone can beat the raid as long as you explain it to everyone so everyone understands what needs to be done. I beat LoR with a mastery rank 1 player who used volt shields to defend teammates. 

 

Also... E vamp trinities are a bit of a novel and will have problems that a duration trinity won't have.

My clan beat it once when we had no hud back when LoR was super glitchy just cause everyone understood the mechanics and what needed to happen

[AzureTerra]

Welcome to Raiding, its the same in any game.

[Varacal]

i dont think using the "people did it blindly before" works here, cause before, there were no guides on what to do, where to be, but that's not true now, almost, if not, everything that you need to know can be found on the internet, there's no reason not to look at some first before doing them

[TehGMMan]

Would you rather have everyone know what to do beforehand or have people not know anything, going in blind and failing in a Raid?

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

26 minutes ago, Rociel said:

Mr 21, 2249 hours on Steam timer etc. etc. etc.
I did the first trial once. I didn't watch the video beforehand, just went in to help out people who got abandoned by a much needed frame there.
It was mostly new people, couple dudes gave out instruction, we were successful at the end.

I learned almost nothing from my experience there even with clear instructions. No idea why I was doing something or when it failed and when something was actually meant to happen. Discovered those things only afterwards by reading forums. It's quite clear the trial needs better instructions for people.

Why I never repeated? I believe, to be fun, the trial needs 8 people that usually play together, not just a Pick Up Group. Warframe players are really bad on cooperation. Just take sorties as an example, you usually cycle through 4-5 groups in a Spy mission there and mostly, if its successful, it's one guy doing most if not all the work (a lot of times it's me). So for trial you need double the people that actually cooperate well together - and good luck getting a pick up group like that.

Sure, you can watch the videos, read the forums, make a PUG by stating ridiculous demands, demanding certain level of mastery and asking people questions, before you go in, to make sure they know the stuff. But is it fun? Well, not for me. So I avoid the trials entirely, haven't done the second one and I regret nothing.

 

LoR is actually easier with less people. If you have a frost, loki, trinity, nova and take your pick of a 5th frame, it makes the second stage a lot faster. Everyone will need to get on the right buttons for the hijack part, but it makes the security system part much faster. 

 

That being said, talking to people and having them understand mechanics and how they can make the raid go smoother helps make everything faster