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Archwizard's Warframe Concept Compilation - (Update 07/19/17) New Dust Ability Stats


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6 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Good thing you pointed that out, forgot to alter a few details of his kit.

No problem, I totally have reading comprehension issues so that is why I brought it up in the first place. Also I like the idea command whistle works on Clem. Though he could arguably fall under the category Syndicate allies.

 

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Just now, Bondsmagi said:

No problem, I totally have reading comprehension issues so that is why I brought it up in the first place. Also I like the idea command whistle works on Clem. Though he could arguably fall under the category Syndicate allies.

I think he falls under Specters, actually.

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So, couple small updates:

I decided as a compromise, Enkidu's old passive (which was originally Oberon's old passive) is now an effect of Pack Mentality's augment. The original problems with Oberon's passive were that it couldn't be controlled, it was limited to only a handful of units from one faction, and it had little impact on his kit. Hopefully the changes in making it an augment (extending it to all summoned units) will make it more potent, while blending with his kit more effectively than with Oberon's and offering a greater degree of control to the player.

Additionally, I'm actually working on a sixth concept to add to the compilation in the OP - in part to even out with the roster, but primarily because it's a concept I've been toying with nearly as long as I've worked on Dust (I've just had a tough time working out the logistics of the kit, beyond adding buffs that aren't available in-game). I recently had some suggestions that rekindled my interest in the concept, and am happy to get a write-up out to you guys as soon as I can!

The only spoiler I will offer, is that I originally came up with her theme shortly after Nekros' powers were first announced.

Edited by Archwizard
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  • 3 weeks later...

Please welcome to center stage: Lady Luck herself, Ms. Fortuna!

This concept has been a long-time passion project of mine that I've been constantly putting off. Gambler classes who aren't related to pirates are rare enough in gaming. The very concept of a Gambler class whose effectiveness isn't utterly dependent on RNG or loot - one whose effectiveness begins and ends in the battle - is hard to wrap the mind around. She's probably my most ambitious concept yet!

I'd like to thank @Hayabusa7 for their extraordinary work on Fortuna's concept art - you may know them from the "Buff Oberon" piece that went around Reddit recently. Their quick turnover on Fortuna's art is nothing to shake a stick at, and I've found all the subtle details on her to be not only fitting but, frankly, genius. She really would never have been completed without Haya.

I'd also like to thank @arch111 and @tnccs215 for their help during her design process, both artistically and in terms of gameplay.

The effects of her abilities are still be a bit WIP, so feel free to offer any critiques or suggestions that you may have.

(Oh, and I also added some Conclave-related tweaks to Enkidu yesterday. I realized I hadn't actually given him Conclave augments while I was putting the finishing touches on Fortuna. And a tweak to Dust's passive due to the recent inclusion of the Endura.)

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Gotta say, most of these frames are incredibly well designed!

Dust
All her abilities are fun and interesting, while also really unique and synergistic. Very impressive, all in all. I'm also really happy you didn't go with stereotypical time powers! While I can see myself failing miserably to play well with her kit, I still find the kit to be truly awesome and fun when used correctly!
ONLY thing I don't like is her passive, but that's because I don't like how channeling works right now :P

Fathom
While parts of his kits is interesting, I can see him being generally too difficult to use / too squishy in most missions, since he is rather complex along while seemingly lacking in reward (Fracture aside). He doesn't have very much hard-CC, has no survivability skill yet even has a standstill ability. He seems to be ... missing something?
(Also, Breach could easily be a baseline augment)

Revenant
His simplistic and synergistic style appeals to me very much. I personally can't find any real complaint about this 'frame. Good job! Also, the art by @arch111 looks amazing (looks like a mix of Mag, Limbo with his Magrite helmet and Inaros)! I can really see myself playing this 'frame.

Scathach
While the idea of this 'frame is neat and the art is great, I somehow just don't really like the kit. Nothing personal, not just my type of 'frame kit, that's all

Endiku
Some pretty good ideas here. While I still haven't fully wrapped my heads around the abilities (they have a lot of restrictions and rules...), I can still see myself having some fun with this 'frame. Although, I think some of the problems I have with the kit is the fact there are too many restrictions and rules to them, and that the unagmented #2 (and #3 as a whole) don't seem to have enough "oomph" in them. While the kit design bears some similarities to Dota 2's Lycan, I think Lycan's kit feels better designed somehow. I dunno, need to think a bit here (Please don't take my words too harshly, I still like the overall idea!).

Fortuna
I think her passive and first 3 abilities are quite interesting. But then ... a literal slot machine? Seems quite out there, no? I think the effects it does is nice and all, but it just seems a BIT too out of whack for Warframe. Likewise, I find her art design to be even MORE out there (and I'm one of those that find Limbo's design to be just fine for Warframe!)
That said, I like that you made her pretty much ANTI-rng, despite being a literal gambling frame! That's really cool. While I don't think see myself playing a frame like this very much myself (not my style), I could totally see lots of people playing this frame. And while I do have objections to the "out there"-ness of her ultimate (and her art), I still find the kit to be well designed regardless.

Overall, my favourites are definitely Dust (most unique kit) and Revenant (simplistic fun!).
With some more polish, I can see Fathom and Endiku becoming great frames too.
Scathach didn't really tickle my fancy, but I can see others liking her style. Likewise for Fortuna.

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11 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Dust
All her abilities are fun and interesting, while also really unique and synergistic. Very impressive, all in all. I'm also really happy you didn't go with stereotypical time powers! While I can see myself failing miserably to play well with her kit, I still find the kit to be truly awesome and fun when used correctly!
ONLY thing I don't like is her passive, but that's because I don't like how channeling works right now :P

Originally her passive was set to activate from critical melee strikes, but I realized after the Endura was released that I was focusing the statistical advantages of this too heavily on the Destreza, not the entire Rapier class.

While I share your sentiments that channeling was released as a flawed system, I felt channeling was a fitting alternative to the above, since it effectively functions as a mock 5th ability - spend a little energy, get a set effect. Additionally, it has synergy with her kit, since her second ability allows her to snapshot the channeled attack without actually spending energy on the extra hits (like with Life Strike on melee status procs). It gives her options for how to maximize her second ability: create a turret, or freeze a small crowd of priority enemies.

When it comes to characters with only 4 skills... versatility is the name of the game.

11 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Fathom
While parts of his kits is interesting, I can see him being generally too difficult to use / too squishy in most missions, since he is rather complex along while seemingly lacking in reward (Fracture aside). He doesn't have very much hard-CC, has no survivability skill yet even has a standstill ability. He seems to be ... missing something?
(Also, Breach could easily be a baseline augment)

I agree that Fathom is hard to wrap the mind around - but honestly, I think that just fits the "Eldritch Horror" theme more.

I'd say that he has plenty in the way of reward, CC and survivability. Event Horizon completely locks down melee units while Twisted Path provides protection from ranged enemies; he doesn't have direct mitigation, but neither does Zephyr. Not only does Inevitable Maw freeze enemies once they've been pulled close to either Fathom or one of his Fractures, but you can combine it with Twisted Path to repeatedly lash them on the way over to you, and continue to guide the projectile from Twisted Path while you're channeling his ultimate. He can finely control enemy movement between his latter two skills, set up chokepoints with his middle two skills, and then attack enemies without even being in the same room as them with Fracture.
I did try to give him a little more base survivability than most of the frames here, of course, due to the concern that he'd be standing in the open quite a bit.

As for Breach... I recognize it could definitely fit with the ability, but at the same time, I'm the type to worry about stuffing too many effects into one skill (I still take umbrage with the execution of Oberon's rework, for instance). Having effects that deal continuous damage are already prevalent through his kit, so the tentacles are a piece of the kit that he could live without.

11 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Endiku
Some pretty good ideas here. While I still haven't fully wrapped my heads around the abilities (they have a lot of restrictions and rules...), I can still see myself having some fun with this 'frame. Although, I think some of the problems I have with the kit is the fact there are too many restrictions and rules to them, and that the unagmented #2 (and #3 as a whole) don't seem to have enough "oomph" in them. While the kit design bears some similarities to Dota 2's Lycan, I think Lycan's kit feels better designed somehow. I dunno, need to think a bit here (Please don't take my words too harshly, I still like the overall idea!).

I'm not sure what you mean when you say his 2 lacks "oomph" - it's basically Warcry for the whole team's pets. Likewise, his 3 is a free revive as long as he has a companion or his 1 active, basically; I rather imagine it's along the same lines as Defy, not necessarily being "flashy" but having practical survivability.

I agree that there are a lot of restrictions to his kit in terms of what actually qualifies as a pet, and that was a concern while I was writing the skills. I knew that I wanted him to be able to direct minions with Wild Call, but it would simply be a frustration if having an Enkidu in your team meant never seeing your own pets, and I wanted to make sure that Feeding Frenzy was as potent of an increase as possible.

11 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Fortuna
I think her passive and first 3 abilities are quite interesting. But then ... a literal slot machine? Seems quite out there, no? I think the effects it does is nice and all, but it just seems a BIT too out of whack for Warframe. Likewise, I find her art design to be even MORE out there (and I'm one of those that find Limbo's design to be just fine for Warframe!)
That said, I like that you made her pretty much ANTI-rng, despite being a literal gambling frame! That's really cool. While I don't think see myself playing a frame like this very much myself (not my style), I could totally see lots of people playing this frame. And while I do have objections to the "out there"-ness of her ultimate (and her art), I still find the kit to be well designed regardless.

Here's the thing: I think it would be literally impossible for any frame idea to be "out there" so long as it can be balanced and provide an enjoyable playstyle.

The latest frame to be dropped is a DJ who dresses like she's in a marching band and weaponizes deployable stereo systems. We have a pirate who can melt into a puddle, a fairy who can shrink and summon attack butterflies, a mummy who eats people with his sarcophagus, a jester who has a power literally designed as "Just a Prank, Bro", a cowgirl, the Monkey King himself, and as you mentioned: a stage magician.
Having someone dress like a saloon dancer and drop a futuristic slot machine, is not "out there" in my book so long as it contributes to her playstyle and isn't just a "press button, get money" skill.

Besides, Slots is a pretty classical Gambler ability, just look at Final Fantasy. The tech's all there with the Ramparts and Grineer ciphers.

But, I'm glad to see I was able to appeal to your sensibilities with the others! Revenant was basically designed for my personal playstyle, so I'm glad there's a growing base for him.

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13 hours ago, Archwizard said:

DUST

Originally her passive was set to activate from critical melee strikes, but I realized after the Endura was released that I was focusing the statistical advantages of this too heavily on the Destreza, not the entire Rapier class.

While I share your sentiments that channeling was released as a flawed system, I felt channeling was a fitting alternative to the above, since it effectively functions as a mock 5th ability - spend a little energy, get a set effect. Additionally, it has synergy with her kit, since her second ability allows her to snapshot the channeled attack without actually spending energy on the extra hits (like with Life Strike on melee status procs). It gives her options for how to maximize her second ability: create a turret, or freeze a small crowd of priority enemies.

When it comes to characters with only 4 skills... versatility is the name of the game.

FATHOM

I agree that Fathom is hard to wrap the mind around - but honestly, I think that just fits the "Eldritch Horror" theme more.

I'd say that he has plenty in the way of reward, CC and survivability. Event Horizon completely locks down melee units while Twisted Path provides protection from ranged enemies; he doesn't have direct mitigation, but neither does Zephyr. Not only does Inevitable Maw freeze enemies once they've been pulled close to either Fathom or one of his Fractures, but you can combine it with Twisted Path to repeatedly lash them on the way over to you, and continue to guide the projectile from Twisted Path while you're channeling his ultimate. He can finely control enemy movement between his latter two skills, set up chokepoints with his middle two skills, and then attack enemies without even being in the same room as them with Fracture.
I did try to give him a little more base survivability than most of the frames here, of course, due to the concern that he'd be standing in the open quite a bit.

As for Breach... I recognize it could definitely fit with the ability, but at the same time, I'm the type to worry about stuffing too many effects into one skill (I still take umbrage with the execution of Oberon's rework, for instance). Having effects that deal continuous damage are already prevalent through his kit, so the tentacles are a piece of the kit that he could live without.

ENKIDU

I'm not sure what you mean when you say his 2 lacks "oomph" - it's basically Warcry for the whole team's pets. Likewise, his 3 is a free revive as long as he has a companion or his 1 active, basically; I rather imagine it's along the same lines as Defy, not necessarily being "flashy" but having practical survivability.

I agree that there are a lot of restrictions to his kit in terms of what actually qualifies as a pet, and that was a concern while I was writing the skills. I knew that I wanted him to be able to direct minions with Wild Call, but it would simply be a frustration if having an Enkidu in your team meant never seeing your own pets, and I wanted to make sure that Feeding Frenzy was as potent of an increase as possible.

FORTUNA

Here's the thing: I think it would be literally impossible for any frame idea to be "out there" so long as it can be balanced and provide an enjoyable playstyle.

The latest frame to be dropped is a DJ who dresses like she's in a marching band and weaponizes deployable stereo systems. We have a pirate who can melt into a puddle, a fairy who can shrink and summon attack butterflies, a mummy who eats people with his sarcophagus, a jester who has a power literally designed as "Just a Prank, Bro", a cowgirl, the Monkey King himself, and as you mentioned: a stage magician.
Having someone dress like a saloon dancer and drop a futuristic slot machine, is not "out there" in my book so long as it contributes to her playstyle and isn't just a "press button, get money" skill.

Besides, Slots is a pretty classical Gambler ability, just look at Final Fantasy. The tech's all there with the Ramparts and Grineer ciphers.

But, I'm glad to see I was able to appeal to your sensibilities with the others! Revenant was basically designed for my personal playstyle, so I'm glad there's a growing base for him.

DUST
Oh, don't get me wrong, you have suggested a great passive! I just personally dislike channeling because it both forces equipping melee and the benefits of channeling in general is really meager. I wouldn't exactly change your passive (it's great), I'd like to heavily improve channeling itself.

FATHOM
I didn't have any problems wrapping my head around his powers (I had more problems with Endiku's various rules, probably cuz it took a while to read the entire OP thoroughly and I got mentally tired :P). I just feel that he doesn't do enough. Let me explain:
* Fracture - This is a really good power, in particular for AoE weapon attacks and Warframe powers. The only "problem" is that a singular cast does nothing by itself (maybe a second cast when there is only one Fracture on the field could be free of cost?), which is why I thought Breach felt like a bandaid to that problem (and don't worry, Oberon's kit is/was indeed a disastrous mish-mash, but Fracture with Breach innate wouldn't be). Otherwise, good and interesting power.
* Event Horizon - The basic idea of heavy gravity is nice, and I like it's synergy with Twisted Path... but it's CC is rather weak. Immobilization (even with limitted turning) I feel is not often gonna help him out all that much, defensively. I feel this power could be a bit stronger.
* Twisted Path - It takes time to setup, and it doesn't even guarantee to protect you (due to randomized deflection). I'm not sure from your wording either, but can he move while guiding it? He really should. Even so, I think it's a bit too convoluted of a way to give him protection. Ivara's Navigator is hardly ever used, because it's complex and slow. Likewise for Nova's AMD (although it's much better, since it adds awesome damage in an AoE, and she gets a lot of time via MPrime). Twisted Path could probably be simplified in how the path is created, and/or could be better at reliably protecting him and his allies.
* Inevitable Maw - I find it really weird that enemies can fight back while being dragged (apart from the initial knockdown), rather than being dragged along in a prone fashion. If the ability tanked up Fathom (considering he pretty much turns himself into a tentacle monster of sorts), I see no problem with that though.
The augment is great though, fitting both the ability and its role as an augment.
I dunno, I might just be too nitpicky, but something bothers me about his kit somehow. Can't truly pick my finger on it though. As a TL;DR I guess I find Event Horizon lacking in effects and Twisted Path to be too elaborate for its benefits?

ENKIDU
Just a question about this part: "I knew that I wanted him to be able to direct minions with Wild Call, but it would simply be a frustration if having an Enkidu in your team meant never seeing your own pets". Why was that a concern? Of course his Wild Call directions should only affect his own minions, not allies' minions.

Anyway, re-reading him (I got a bit confused about his abilities), I take back my statement that Feeding Frenzy lacks "oomph". And I understand the synergy and design of his abilities much better now, so I see him in a much better light right now. That said, I'll try to go into "pickier" feedback:
* Wild Call

  • Max rank has two wolves with linked health pool... This makes them far more susceptible to AoE damage than rank 0-2. Since a shared healthpool and 2 wolves are important (for the mounting-design + since he can't resummon a singular wolf, due to how the ability works), then he should summon two wolves even from rank 0 (so it doesn't get downgraded, survivability-wise, from a higher rank).
  • The name of the commands; Stampede and Hunt seem reversed?
  • Why is there an energycost on the commands? That seems completely unnecessary.

* Feeding Frenzy - Upon re-reading... yeah, this power is actually quite awesome! I've grown to like the idea of it a lot, actually :)

* Pack Mentality - Considering Feeding Frenzy's healing of the animals (or himself while in the ulti), and how he can drain that health into himself (or vice versa) via Pack Mentality, I've started to like the idea behind this ability a lot better. Something that bothers me though, is the inability to refresh the cast (at least when the augment is taken into regard. Maybe that could be an added part of the augment (as it is a rather niched augment)?). And I still feel this ability is missing something, something that makes it useful for the entire duration, not just when someone of the marked one dies. Some ideas:

  • Overhealing (at the very least from that of Feeding Frenzy) done by those with a mark (so, Enkidu, his companion, his wolves and whatever is converted via the augment) has their leftover healing redistributed to Enkidu, his companion and/or his wolves (but not to the augment-converted units, since they are more disposable). This further emphasizes the pack mentality idea -> The prey you hunt is not just for yourself, it goes to the whole pack.
  • Enkidu has a huge aura while the ability is active, which grants armor to himself and all his underlings (meaning; his companion, his wolves and whatever converted via the augment). Possibly also benefitting his allies (and their minions)?

* Hunter's Moon - Just got a single important question: Can Enkidu still fight if an ally mounts him? (I know his minions can't if an ally mounts them)

FORTUNA
I definitely think there are things that could be too "out there".
While my gripes with her tacky looks are indeed probably unjustified (because a frame's look i just a modified shell, pretty much), a Warframe's powers, however, needs to be able to be looked at in a somewhat serious manner, when seen as "a power granted by the void". So, taking all looks aside (since they don't truly matter), let's just look at those you mentioned and their powers:

Octavia - Music is highly relavent for combat. Music for combat is VERY powerful, in fact, especially for inspiration. That she literally weaponizes music isn't that much of a stretch either (pure pressure and/or ear-drum+organ rupturing and/or resonance).
Hydroid - Everything comes down to: He uses water as a weapon and/or as shapeshifting-powers. No problems there.
Titania - Shapeshifting your size and controlling razorblades shaped as butterflies (which are actually attached to her suit, no less) seems like quite a powerful and serious power.
Inaros - Yeah, the sarcophagus is indeed very odd (unless he "shapeshifts" those coffins he has on his shoulders or something? Still quite out there, yeah), but his remaining lifedraining and/or sandbased powers are nontheless easy to take seriously.
Mirage - Illusions and light-control sounds like a good and serious power to me.
Mesa - If you look at her powers, they are actually all highly related to manipulating Kinetic energy in various ways, just mainly used to amplify guns. Very serious powers if you ask me (And even similar to Scathach, just used for different purposes).
Wukong - His powers are a bit of a stretch, indeed, but looked at roughly, they all relate to supreme survivability and (weapon)shapeshifting, still very easy to take seriously.
Limbo - He deals with an alternate dimension (and time?). How's that not a serious power?

Fortuna's all about altering probability (luck-powers, if you will) and weaponizing her personal cards and dice (which are presumably part of her armor in some way). That's all fine and dandy. But that slot machine (unless visually designed in such a way that it makes sense, like being made mostly of energy or something like that) is REALLY random (similar to Inaros' sarcophagus, which you can still see attached to him nontheless, but I digress) and quite out there. As long as it doesn't look like all too much like a typical one-armed-bandit, I guess it'd be fine.

Think about it; If you had a Warframe that randomly summoned a bike or car, wouldn't you find it to be a bit out there too? Summoning a literal slot machine is not far of from that, imo.

-----
All the nitpicking and rambling aside, keep up the good job!

 

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WHOAH, Geezus ell, I really missed out on your expansions dear suh! Almost tempted to ask for your help on my dear gal Feynman over in the Pit with exact, proper, and balanced number brainstorming, but, barring that sorta miracle, I'll just pop in and say that, of the crew you have on hand, I feel like Enkidu seems like the most currently implementable. Old Oby might be able to get the critters of nature to tolerate his presence, but, Enki-boy can slam his fist on the proverbial desk and get em to stand up, salute, and charge into the breach.

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5 hours ago, Azamagon said:

-snip-

Fathom

I considered the same with Fracture, but I was concerned that having one free cast in the middle might create a weird non-uniform cost to code. Perhaps some alternative, such as having a cast with none active also summon a second Fracture in front of the caster at the same time?

Having Event Horizon be somewhat limited was rather the point; if you have multiple CCs in the same kit, there should be room for each to build on the others so that they aren't redundant of each other. EH is designed for melee, but it has an intended weakness against ranged units, to encourage the parts of his kit that are made to deal with ranged units. EH provides a vital "opt out" within Fathom's kit, allowing Fathom to be selective with how he manipulates people by marking some enemies as immovable by his other skills.
Yes, I could have it do something like clone Magnetize or periodically knock down all the enemies within the field, but then what's the point of the two other CCs later in his kit similarly locking down enemies? Right now, it can reduce enemy knockdown recovery and pull down flying units, so it can at least enhance those types of effect rather than being strictly counteractive to his other skills.

Yes, Fathom can move and even continue to fight while Twisted Path is active. While toggled active, it's guided with his cursor just like Antimatter Drop, not like Navigator; think of it like him guiding a pencil around the room to draw a maze.
I'll grant that Twisted Path isn't guaranteed protection... but by that logic, neither is Turbulence, which deflects bullets in the same manner. The accuracy drop is pretty dependable for Zephyr and allies in her sphere (and, I imagine, is why she gets a D polarity aura - so she can regenerate while Turbulence deflects most attacks).

Inevitable Maw does allow enemies to fight back, but they get slowed based on how close they are to him (which works nicely with Twisted Path, since they get less accurate the further they are from him), allowing him to significantly reduce incoming damage. It also doesn't necessarily guarantee they'll attack him, either, and enemies struck by Twisted Path will be forced to look away from him. He's not a tank, he's a controller.

Enkidu

Yes, having Enkidu be able to manipulate his own pets and nobody else's is obvious. But you missed the other part of my statement: I wanted to expand the benefits of his other abilities to units he couldn't necessarily control, which is why the restrictions on his skills aren't uniform; Feeding Frenzy opens the pool, Pack Mentality limits the pool.

Wild Call also has the health pool shared between the wolves double on the final rank, so I wouldn't be too concerned about AoE damage - especially given the very limited number of enemies who have AoE. But, I suppose it can't hurt to have both wolves at the start...

The Overhealing for Pack Mentality could work, actually.

Yes, Enkidu can still fight while mounted. If players sit on his wolves, the AI surrenders movement control to them so they aren't pulled in random directions. If a player sits on Enkidu, their movement is surrendered to him so he can't just AFK out, while they can continue shooting from his back.

Fortuna

Again, there are some pretty ridiculous abilities in the game. You basically glossed over Sleight of Hand, which is neither illusion nor light-based (aside from blinding enemies when a crate breaks).

I don't have a design for her slot machine. It could be an egg-shaped pod that wraps over her when in use, it could be an energy construct; it's not like Inaros' sarcophagus has Tut's face on it, I was never simply going to say "copy one of those boxes you'd see in Vegas, that'll fit the Tenno look".

Players have been begging for Warframes with deployable Ramparts and mechsuits for years, so I really wouldn't find a frame that summons its own chariot (literal or otherwise) to be too "out there". (Hell, Enkidu basically does that, his bikes just have fur.)
A unicycle, maybe, but that's just because unicycles are intentionally ridiculous. If they found a way to make it make sense, I'd set aside my disbelief long enough to consider it beyond its aesthetic.

5 hours ago, Unus said:

WHOAH, Geezus ell, I really missed out on your expansions dear suh! Almost tempted to ask for your help on my dear gal Feynman over in the Pit with exact, proper, and balanced number brainstorming, but, barring that sorta miracle, I'll just pop in and say that, of the crew you have on hand, I feel like Enkidu seems like the most currently implementable. Old Oby might be able to get the critters of nature to tolerate his presence, but, Enki-boy can slam his fist on the proverbial desk and get em to stand up, salute, and charge into the breach.

I actually think Enkidu is the least currently implementable, given Geoff's apprehension about mounted combat and quadripedal Warframes. All of the others could be re-fashioned from existing code.

But hey, I don't mind critiquing into other people's concepts!

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1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

Fathom

1) I considered the same with Fracture, but I was concerned that having one free cast in the middle might create a weird non-uniform cost to code. Perhaps some alternative, such as having a cast with none active also summon a second Fracture in front of the caster at the same time?

2) Having Event Horizon be somewhat limited was rather the point; if you have multiple CCs in the same kit, there should be room for each to build on the others so that they aren't redundant of each other. EH is designed for melee, but it has an intended weakness against ranged units, to encourage the parts of his kit that are made to deal with ranged units. EH provides a vital "opt out" within Fathom's kit, allowing Fathom to be selective with how he manipulates people by marking some enemies as immovable by his other skills.
Yes, I could have it do something like clone Magnetize or periodically knock down all the enemies within the field, but then what's the point of the two other CCs later in his kit similarly locking down enemies? Right now, it can reduce enemy knockdown recovery and pull down flying units, so it can at least enhance those types of effect rather than being strictly counteractive to his other skills.

3) Yes, Fathom can move and even continue to fight while Twisted Path is active. While toggled active, it's guided with his cursor just like Antimatter Drop, not like Navigator; think of it like him guiding a pencil around the room to draw a maze.
I'll grant that Twisted Path isn't guaranteed protection... but by that logic, neither is Turbulence, which deflects bullets in the same manner. The accuracy drop is pretty dependable for Zephyr and allies in her sphere (and, I imagine, is why she gets a D polarity aura - so she can regenerate while Turbulence deflects most attacks).

4) Inevitable Maw does allow enemies to fight back, but they get slowed based on how close they are to him (which works nicely with Twisted Path, since they get less accurate the further they are from him), allowing him to significantly reduce incoming damage. It also doesn't necessarily guarantee they'll attack him, either, and enemies struck by Twisted Path will be forced to look away from him. He's not a tank, he's a controller.

Enkidu

5) Yes, having Enkidu be able to manipulate his own pets and nobody else's is obvious. But you missed the other part of my statement: I wanted to expand the benefits of his other abilities to units he couldn't necessarily control, which is why the restrictions on his skills aren't uniform; Feeding Frenzy opens the pool, Pack Mentality limits the pool.

6) Wild Call also has the health pool shared between the wolves double on the final rank, so I wouldn't be too concerned about AoE damage - especially given the very limited number of enemies who have AoE. But, I suppose it can't hurt to have both wolves at the start...

7) The Overhealing for Pack Mentality could work, actually.

8) Yes, Enkidu can still fight while mounted. If players sit on his wolves, the AI surrenders movement control to them so they aren't pulled in random directions. If a player sits on Enkidu, their movement is surrendered to him so he can't just AFK out, while they can continue shooting from his back.

Fortuna

9) Again, there are some pretty ridiculous abilities in the game. You basically glossed over Sleight of Hand, which is neither illusion nor light-based (aside from blinding enemies when a crate breaks).

10) I don't have a design for her slot machine. It could be an egg-shaped pod that wraps over her when in use, it could be an energy construct; it's not like Inaros' sarcophagus has Tut's face on it, I was never simply going to say "copy one of those boxes you'd see in Vegas, that'll fit the Tenno look".

11) Players have been begging for Warframes with deployable Ramparts and mechsuits for years, so I really wouldn't find a frame that summons its own chariot (literal or otherwise) to be too "out there". (Hell, Enkidu basically does that, his bikes just have fur.)
A unicycle, maybe, but that's just because unicycles are intentionally ridiculous. If they found a way to make it make sense, I'd set aside my disbelief long enough to consider it beyond its aesthetic.

12) But hey, I don't mind critiquing into other people's concepts!

Fathom

1) Dunno. Maybe go the other way: When there are no Fracture fields out, maybe that "first" one could be free of cost?

2) Wait, there's a few things there you haven't mentioned in the OP:

  • EH makes enemies take longer to recover from knockdowns? I mean, it makes sense ofc, but it was never stated in the OP.
  • EH doesn't allow enemies to be pulled out, not even with Inevitable Maw? Considering you just mentioned that they take longer to recover from knockdowns, that makes very little sense synergy-wise, because since IM knocks enemies down, that means the snagging and dragging an enemy through an EH-field, means that this enemy will be safer to pull (it will take longer to stand up, thus remains harmless for longer).

Back to the discussion: The more I think about the ideas here, the more I realize why I'm bothered by his kit; you are basicly making him into another Hydroid (in a less problematic way ofc, and Fracture obviously aside)... Fathom has 3 CC or CC-esque abilities, all which try to cover each other's weaknesses. While it might be because we're spoiled by having some Warframes that have amazing CC in a single ability, they still have to be points of comparison. If Fathom has 3 CC/CC-esque abilities that needs to be used in conjunction to give any semblance of reliability in regards to CC, and than you compare that to, say, a Rhino Stomp, an ability on a Warframe that can do quite a bit more than just CC... then why even bring him to the party (Fracture aside, that is)?

I'm sorry if that somehow comes across as kinda harsh, but that's really not the intention, I want Fathom to be an awesome "eldritch horror" that manipulates the playing field in a fearsome and twisted way. Fracture and Inevitable Maw are great and fearsome abilities, but I still feel Event Horizon and Twisted Path (especially with such awesome names! :D) leaves much to be desired, especially Event Horizon.

3) Ok, as expected then (just wanted to make sure)
Sidenote: Bugged hitscan attacks+homing attacks+AoE aside, Turbulence is otherwise guaranteed protection against ranged attacks.

4) Hmm... I guess that's sorta ok.

Enkidu

5) Sorry, didn't catch that as two sentences belonging together.

6) Well, if they also have a doubled health pool, it's indeed a lesser concern. Still, I'd recommend it to summon 2 at all ranks, so people get used to them and the space they take up in the battlefield from the start.

7) Yes, I think that'd make it feel more impactful for general gameplay, rather than just being another "pseudo-Defy"-ability.

8) Well I'm glad you want him to still be able to fight (I could just imagine the trolling otherwise), but wouldn't the animations of him fighting be quite disruptive for the one riding him? While that is still a very minor concern (as the mobility and perpetual onehanded casting it grants for the rider are both awesome), it's still a concern that popped up in my mind.

Fortuna

9) Sleight of Hand is not ridiculous to me; While it's maybe not lightbased, she alters items and the environment into boobytraps, things that enemies are not expecting them to be (thus, illusions of sorts). If that is not how it works, she maybe overloads the said items with immense radiation, causing various dangerous side-effects (still, unseen to enemies, thus still some form of illusion)? And even if THAT is now how it works, it could still be some kind of "shapeshifting"-kind of ability. I can still see it making sense in some way.

10) Guess I was just afraid that you'd actually suggest that it SHOULD look very much like one of those in Las Vegas xD

11) I guess we can both agreed that, as long as they don't look too out of place and/or are made in ways that could make sense lorewise and all, almost anything could be implemented?

12) Well, if you don't mind critiquing other concepts, I hope you don't mind me tossing in my 2 suggestions here (one very recent: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/806483-jotun-the-glacier-skater-tackler-frame/ and one superold: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/597582-nessus-mimic-and-puppetmaster-warframe-now-with-art/ ... man that link is broken, I'm gonna repost that one later)?

Edited by Azamagon
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1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

Dunno. Maybe go the other way: When there are no Fracture fields out, maybe that "first" one could be free of cost?

Actually I'm suddenly considering, what if Fracture starts at 0 cost but increases for each Fracture active on the field? Considering it's an increase to Power Range and each one has to connect to another...

Nah, probably too much considering Fracture's his main unique utility.

Another alternative was suggested some time back, was to have "inert" Fractures have an unlimited duration, only counting down once a second one is placed.

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

EH makes enemies take longer to recover from knockdowns? I mean, it makes sense ofc, but it was never stated in the OP.

Hmm. Woops, I must've erased it at some point. I'll just toss that in now real quick...

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

EH doesn't allow enemies to be pulled out, not even with Inevitable Maw? Considering you just mentioned that they take longer to recover from knockdowns, that makes very little sense synergy-wise, because since IM knocks enemies down, that means the snagging and dragging an enemy through an EH-field, means that this enemy will be safer to pull (it will take longer to stand up, thus remains harmless for longer).

Keep in mind, Event Horizon already states: "Ragdolling or movement effects inflicted upon immobilized targets will be reduced to knockdown. If the target attempts to perform an attack with directional momentum, they will be immediately knocked down and their attack will be interrupted."
If you drag an enemy through Event Horizon, they'll be repeatedly knocked down within the field so long as you channel, instead of crossing through it.

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

Back to the discussion: The more I think about the ideas here, the more I realize why I'm bothered by his kit; you are basicly making him into another Hydroid (in a less problematic way ofc, and Fracture obviously aside)... Fathom has 3 CC or CC-esque abilities, all which try to cover each other's weaknesses. While it might be because we're spoiled by having some Warframes that have amazing CC in a single ability, they still have to be points of comparison. If Fathom has 3 CC/CC-esque abilities that needs to be used in conjunction to give any semblance of reliability in regards to CC, and than you compare that to, say, a Rhino Stomp, an ability on a Warframe that can do quite a bit more than just CC... then why even bring him to the party (Fracture aside, that is)?

Fathom is designed to be more of an area control style Warframe. While Rhino can stomp and instantly freeze every enemy that was near him at the moment of casting, Fathom shapes the battlefield and funnels enemies exactly where he wants them. He takes time to set up and he gets nowhere fast, but wherever he is standing, he is king; why should he bother running, when he can always reach?

Hydroid's kit doesn't really attempt to cover one anothers' weaknesses - Hek, his 1 and his ultimate basically cover the same niche, while his 2 and 3 are polar opposites.

The comparison I would make is Vauban: Each of his skills is primarily a CC, but each has a different application.

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

Well I'm glad you want him to still be able to fight (I could just imagine the trolling otherwise), but wouldn't the animations of him fighting be quite disruptive for the one riding him? While that is still a very minor concern (as the mobility and perpetual onehanded casting it grants for the rider are both awesome), it's still a concern that popped up in my mind.

It would have to limit the number of weapons the player can use while riding anyway, since you can't perform any sort of directional melee attacks, for instance.
The "perpetual onehanded casting" is an intended penalty.

Edited by Archwizard
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20 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

1) Actually I'm suddenly considering, what if Fracture starts at 0 cost but increases for each Fracture active on the field? Considering it's an increase to Power Range and each one has to connect to another...

Nah, probably too much considering Fracture's his main unique utility.

Another alternative was suggested some time back, was to have "inert" Fractures have an unlimited duration, only counting down once a second one is placed.

Hmm. Woops, I must've erased it at some point. I'll just toss that in now real quick...

2) Keep in mind, Event Horizon already states: "Ragdolling or movement effects inflicted upon immobilized targets will be reduced to knockdown. If the target attempts to perform an attack with directional momentum, they will be immediately knocked down and their attack will be interrupted."
If you drag an enemy through Event Horizon, they'll be repeatedly knocked down within the field so long as you channel, instead of crossing through it.

3) Fathom is designed to be more of an area control style Warframe. While Rhino can stomp and instantly freeze every enemy that was near him at the moment of casting, Fathom shapes the battlefield and funnels enemies exactly where he wants them. He takes time to set up and he gets nowhere fast, but wherever he is standing, he is king.

4) Hydroid's kit doesn't really attempt to cover one anothers' weaknesses - Hek, his 1 and his ultimate basically cover the same niche, while his 2 and 3 are polar opposites.

The comparison I would make is Vauban: Each of his skills is primarily a CC, but each has a different application.

5) It would have to limit the number of weapons the player can use while riding anyway, since you can't perform any sort of directional melee attacks, for instance.
The "perpetual onehanded casting" is an intended penalty.

1) Anything would be good really.

2) Ah, well that's good! That's a synergy I didn't think of. Nice one.

3) Perhaps. Only playtesting would tell, really. Nontheless, if I have some completely new ideas for him, hope you don't mind me sharing it here?

4) Well I didn't try to DIRECTLY compare him to Hydroid (as Hydroid has a lot of issues with his kit, as we both know), which is why I also included the part: "in a less problematic way ofc". So, yeah, he wasn't a good comparison per se, the main reason why I thought of him was because of his CC-centred kit.
Thus Vauban is a bit better of a comparison, yes. But even so, Vauban's kit, just like Hydroid's, is not particularly well designed either. Looking at his individiual abilities, sure, there are a couple of strong abilities there, but Vauban's kit when considered as a whole package is pretty bad, as the abilities have almost no form of natural synergy whatsoever.

Upon closer inspection, there is actually no Warframe that I can think of that truly has a similar "problem" as Fathom does. Because Fathom, to me, seemingly has the opposite issue of Vauban; His individual abilities are generally not all that strong, but as a whole they'd be quite amazing. That's also why, even if I seem very critical about the individual abilities' strengths (mostly just EH though), I still find his kit to be much better designed than most of the already existing kits in the game! So, there's that on the plus-side for ya :)

5) Wait... you don't consider "perpetual onehanded casting" as a BONUS? I mean, being able to cast twohanded casts like Avalanche and such while the Enkidu player moves around for you, seems like a GOOD thing, no?
Or do you mean the opposite somehow, that only onehanded abilities are the ones able to be cast while mounting Enkidu/wolves? Some clarification of what you mean by that phrase would be much appreciated!

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52 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Nontheless, if I have some completely new ideas for him, hope you don't mind me sharing it here?

Shoot.

52 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Upon closer inspection, there is actually no Warframe that I can think of that truly has a similar "problem" as Fathom does. Because Fathom, to me, seemingly has the opposite issue of Vauban; His individual abilities are generally not all that strong, but as a whole they'd be quite amazing. That's also why, even if I seem very critical about the individual abilities' strengths (mostly just EH though), I still find his kit to be much better designed than most of the already existing kits in the game! So, there's that on the plus-side for ya :)

Well, I do try to design frames as a whole kit rather than just an ability at a time.

Also, I can think of one: Loki. Due to how squishy Decoy is, it's virtually useless without his other abilities - but altogether, his kit is often considered overpowered. I try to use him as my personal benchmark.

Fathom isn't great for missions with high mobility requirements. He is great any time you need to bunker down in one room. Wouldn't be the first frame to run by that description.

52 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Wait... you don't consider "perpetual onehanded casting" as a BONUS? I mean, being able to cast twohanded casts like Avalanche and such while the Enkidu player moves around for you, seems like a GOOD thing, no?
Or do you mean the opposite somehow, that only onehanded abilities are the ones able to be cast while mounting Enkidu/wolves? Some clarification of what you mean by that phrase would be much appreciated!

So the exact phrase is, "Mounted Tenno may continue to use abilities, items, control panels and weapons, but are considered in a perpetual one-handed action until dismounted."
By this I mean, the Tenno is continuously performing a one-handed action by holding the reins - so you're locked out of two-handed abilities, or even from using one-handed abilities while shooting or reloading. The mount itself is a one-handed action.

Partly as a penalty (since riding one of Enkidu's wolves does take away his control over it), partly because as you said, animation requirements. Two-handed abilities use the whole body to cast, but you can't use your lower body while riding or else you'd end up clipping or snapping your character model in two.

Edited by Archwizard
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13 hours ago, Archwizard said:

1) Shoot.

2) Well, I do try to design frames as a whole kit rather than just an ability at a time.

Also, I can think of one: Loki. Due to how squishy Decoy is, it's virtually useless without his other abilities - but altogether, his kit is often considered overpowered. I try to use him as my personal benchmark.

Fathom isn't great for missions with high mobility requirements. He is great any time you need to bunker down in one room. Wouldn't be the first frame to run by that description.

3) So the exact phrase is, "Mounted Tenno may continue to use abilities, items, control panels and weapons, but are considered in a perpetual one-handed action until dismounted."
By this I mean, the Tenno is continuously performing a one-handed action by holding the reins - so you're locked out of two-handed abilities, or even from using one-handed abilities while shooting or reloading. The mount itself is a one-handed action.

Partly as a penalty (since riding one of Enkidu's wolves does take away his control over it), partly because as you said, animation requirements. Two-handed abilities use the whole body to cast, but you can't use your lower body while riding or else you'd end up clipping or snapping your character model in two.

1) Alright (got none now xD)

2) Nice, that's something every 'frame design should aspire to. Loki is indeed a good benchmark to aim for. When looked at like that, I have less and less problems with Fathom's kit now.

And well, Fathom has to have a true weakness. So making him great for stationary-esque fights, but weak for mobile fights sounds good.

3) Ahhh, now I get it. That makes more sense, as a whole. Well, still no complaints about that, as it's both logical and balanced :)

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Minor note I forgot to mention, I updated the OP with some clarification to the penalty of riding Enkidu's wolves, as well as new names for the whistles from Wild Call, just to be less confusing.

Pondering if I should write some base stats for each ability into the OP.

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Forgot to say this: There was one thing I saw on Dust's Magic Hour which bothered me, namely this:

-          As long as Magic Hour is active, each time a target with an active Snapshot is slain, Dust will automatically create a new Snapshot of a nearby enemy within line of sight. Dust may not create Snapshots of other Snapshots.

I can see this getting rather disruptive and, at times, an unwanted effect. Imo, I think this part of the ability is not necessary.

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7 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Forgot to say this: There was one thing I saw on Dust's Magic Hour which bothered me, namely this:

-          As long as Magic Hour is active, each time a target with an active Snapshot is slain, Dust will automatically create a new Snapshot of a nearby enemy within line of sight. Dust may not create Snapshots of other Snapshots.

I can see this getting rather disruptive and, at times, an unwanted effect. Imo, I think this part of the ability is not necessary.

That's primarily because the effect has a target limit on each initial cast, to mitigate the performance requirements from adding more entities to the map. If she wants to affect more than, say, 12 targets at a time without that effect, she'd have to spend another 100 energy.

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49 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

That's primarily because the effect has a target limit on each initial cast. If she wants to affect more than, say, 12 targets at a time without that effect, she'd have to spend another 100 energy.

Well, that'd still be enough for me *shrugs*
 

On another note, I just read through your Tremor suggestion... how sad that Atlas came out the way he did, smells of cheap knockoff, really. I mean, the only thing he does well is punching stuff, which is far from what Tremor was even about. Feels bad man, feels bad *pats your back*

That said, I still think Tremor could make it into the game somehow, maybe as a female earth-counterpart to Atlas?
WIth that in mind, Atlas' Tectonics could simply be revamped into something else, considering he is more of a Brawler anyway. If meant to be close to what it is now, maybe make it more like a spherical Boulder (similar to its rolling form) that he could punch around, instead *shrugs*? I dunno, I just feel that Tremor is far more in line with what an Earthframe would do; Shaping the battlefield.

I'm quite biased though, as I really want that that Burrow ability to exist in Warframe, I have always liked that kind of stuff! :D That ability could at least maybe make it in with some kind of subterrain-like Insectframe? (Think, Zergs/Lurkers from Starcraft)

(Aaaaand sorry for that slight offtopic)

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23 hours ago, Azamagon said:

On another note, I just read through your Tremor suggestion... how sad that Atlas came out the way he did, smells of cheap knockoff, really. I mean, the only thing he does well is punching stuff, which is far from what Tremor was even about. Feels bad man, feels bad *pats your back*

I'm not too bent out of shape about it, honestly - Atlas was probably the best thing to happen to this compilation thread. If Atlas hadn't taken the Earth elemental slot, I would never have freed up the "terraformer" space Tremor occupied; I salvaged what I could to build the early concepts for a Space elemental. I'm proud of how Tremor was written, and how Fathom turned out in the end.

As far as Burrow... I sort of think that Wukong's Cloudwalker fits the bill there, minus the "attachment to walls and floors" limitation.

Edited by Archwizard
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19 hours ago, Archwizard said:

I'm not too bent out of shape about it, honestly - Atlas was probably the best thing to happen to this compilation thread. If Atlas hadn't taken the Earth elemental slot, I would never have freed up the "terraformer" space Tremor occupied; I salvaged what I could to build the early concepts for a Space elemental. I'm proud of how Tremor was written, and how Fathom turned out in the end.

As far as Burrow... I sort of think that Wukong's Cloudwalker fits the bill there, minus the "attachment to walls and floors" limitation.

So, Tremor instead becoming Atlas, meant you had space for Fathom...  Hey, you started the pun-war! :D

*Ahem* Aaanyway, you have taken this remarkably well, I must say. I dunno if I wouldn't had been at least a little more bitter about it *shrugs*

Burrow similar to Cloudwalker? I'm gonna have to strongly disagreed there, sorry. While sharing some similarities, yes, the aesthetic differences matters a lot to me.

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14 hours ago, Azamagon said:

*Ahem* Aaanyway, you have taken this remarkably well, I must say. I dunno if I wouldn't had been at least a little more bitter about it *shrugs*

Well Tremor and Atlas are so different that it can be justified they were developed in parallel, with no influence on one another. Atlas had concept art a year before Tremor's thread, iirc, and an Earth elemental was in the lineup as far back as Nova, so who knows how many powers he had attached by the time Scott saw him. Each elemental Warframe has a battlefield obstruction, so Atlas creating stone walls is a pretty logical leap, and that's the only power the two really have in common (and the execution is very different at that - Atlas creates one with health, Tremor builds platforms, etc).

Likewise, a Time manipulator should logically buff Duration while a Space manipulator should logically buff Range. If they released a new Warframe tomorrow that shared nothing else but those effects... it would be disappointing, sure, but I'd probably shrug and say, "At least we have one." Claiming to have inspired something so obvious would be like trying to copyright a word.

Now, if they release a Time manipulator who attacks by creating doppelgängers or reduces enemy levels, then I'd want to have Dust be recognized as an inspiration much like Zephyr, because that direction is much more obscure than your standard "stop, slow down, speed up" concepts.

Edited by Archwizard
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I wonder if I should include placeholder stats in the OP for each of the frames' abilities. The only one I have in there so far is that Rewind has a cap at 10 levels, and a couple of augment effects.

If anyone has suggestions on this matter, I'm all ears.

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11 hours ago, Archwizard said:

I wonder if I should include placeholder stats in the OP for each of the frames' abilities. The only one I have in there so far is that Rewind has a cap at 10 levels, and a couple of augment effects.

If anyone has suggestions on this matter, I'm all ears.

I wouldn't mind seeing some suggested numbers. It can open up even more feedback discussion (I know I will try to help! :D)

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On 6/23/2017 at 1:28 AM, Azamagon said:

I wouldn't mind seeing some suggested numbers. It can open up even more feedback discussion (I know I will try to help! :D)

Let's start with Dust then.

Placeholder values that are subject to change. Anywhere mods or stats affect it, it's marked by "times stat"; if it does not have that marker, it is affected by rank only.

Quote

Rewind

  • Cost: 25 energy
  • Level drop: 3/5/7/10 Levels * Power Strength
    • Overflow damage: 100 Puncture per excess level
  • Cast range: 20/30/40/50 meters * Power Range
  • Splash radius: 1/3/3/5 meters * Power Range
  • Debuff duration: 7/8/10/12 seconds * Power Duration
  1. Psychometry
    1. Buff duration: 15/20/25/30 seconds
  2. Backfire
    1. Duration: 5/6/7/8 seconds
    2. Maximum charges: 8/10/12/15 attacks

Continuum

  • Cost: 35 energy
  • Afterimage duration: 10/15/20/25 seconds * Power Duration
  1. Reversal
    1. Ammo and health return: 50/65/85/100% restore

Time Warp

  • Cost: 15 energy + 5/second
  • Duration increase: 5/10/15/20% bonus * Power Duration
  • Projectile slowing: 80/85/90/95% slow
  • Dome radius: 5/7/10/12 meters * Power Range
  1. Time Dilation
    1. Fire Rate bonus: 5/7/8/10% per enemy

Magic Hour

  • Cost: 100 energy
  • Snapshots generated: 4/5/6/7 clones * Power Strength
  • Buff and Snapshot duration: 10/15/20/25 seconds * Power Duration
  • Cone length: 15/20/25/30 meters * Power Range
    • Arc: 120 degrees
  1. Critical Moment
    1.  Critical bonus: 50/100/150/200% of base chance
  2. Paradox
    1. Damage: 20/40/60/80% Maximum Health as Blast
    2. Arming period: 3 seconds

Hopefully a good start?

Added a splash radius to Rewind... and removed the effect of Power Strength from Time Warp.

Edited by Archwizard
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