Blind Mirage

[IRVoidGuru]

its just an opinion but instead of adding LOS , witch most mirage blind build users would Obvously be against !. how about capping the possible range making it not able to be "out of conterole " but still be the CC that some ppl need in high end missions , that being said i think nothing is wrong with mirage as she is now and needs no change she was a perfect frame from the time i started playing and iv seen any change made to her  since that point other then those that improved proformance , id like to see this as 1 of the frames that dont get a change or rework , i agree with comments above , if u dont like the massivly Nice ability that this power has to offer , then dont play with ppl using it , but dont punish those who use it and enjoy it just cuz a small group of ppl , who dont even use her , think she is OP , no nerf or LOS is nessasary for this thats the point of it , its an ult blind , excals was never a 4th skill ability and if it was , it too should rightfully be able to go through walls , why? cuz its an ult skill! and it deserves it 

Edited April 2, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33
i didnt say all that i thought was nessasary

[Inugami8]

LOS would destroy mirage.

It's better if they make some enemies immune to the disco ball's blind. With some enemies mean the ones affected by blind. Don't reset the blind duration on enemies that are already blind if mirage recasts the disco ball. Only enemies that can still see can be affected by it. This means one disco ball needs to be cast for each 'group' of enemies (because fresh ones spawn and they would be grouped by that shared timer if mirage blinds them)

[Suira]

4 hours ago, Inugami8 said:

LOS would destroy mirage.

It's better if they make some enemies immune to the disco ball's blind. With some enemies mean the ones affected by blind. Don't reset the blind duration on enemies that are already blind if mirage recasts the disco ball. Only enemies that can still see can be affected by it. This means one disco ball needs to be cast for each 'group' of enemies (because fresh ones spawn and they would be grouped by that shared timer if mirage blinds them)

Making some enemies immune is a bad idea. We already have nullies who are immune and anyone inside their bubble is also immune. That is good enough.
Now I guess I can see some reasoning on not being able to reapply the blind status effect on enemies who are already blinded. That actually makes sense and is a nerf that doesn't wreck Mirage.
But still, is it really warranted? Not really, no, no it is not.

Mirage is a frame that helps us get around really stupid scaling and the fact that intercept at high levels is practically impossible without cheese strategies.
Mirage on intercept is like Frost in defense, Valkyr (to a lesser extent) in survival, Hydroid/Nekros when farming or Limbo (for sortie) in rescue. Do you need them? Not really. Do you want them? Yes.

[Inugami8]

32 minutes ago, Suira said:

Making some enemies immune is a bad idea. We already have nullies who are immune and anyone inside their bubble is also immune. That is good enough.
Now I guess I can see some reasoning on not being able to reapply the blind status effect on enemies who are already blinded. That actually makes sense and is a nerf that doesn't wreck Mirage.
But still, is it really warranted? Not really, no, no it is not.

Mirage is a frame that helps us get around really stupid scaling and the fact that intercept at high levels is practically impossible without cheese strategies.
Mirage on intercept is like Frost in defense, Valkyr (to a lesser extent) in survival, Hydroid/Nekros when farming or Limbo (for sortie) in rescue. Do you need them? Not really. Do you want them? Yes.

Yea that's what I meant, just couldn't find the right words for it at the time. Like you said, in short, is not being able to reapply blind of enemies that are already affected by it.

and what do you mean with it being warranted?

[Suira]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

And...how is this ult any better then frosts or novas? Changing it to LoS wouldn't even change that much..they would just be forced to spam it even more. Let her have a panic button. Geez. 

75 meter radius and perma hard CC

Defiantly not a panic button. The animation takes to long even with Natural Talent.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Suira

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

26 minutes ago, Suira said:

75 meter radius and perma hard CC

Vs half the range (not slowing the game) also hard CC plus armor dbuff on frost. I'd take frost over mirage for CC any day.

[Suira]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Vs half the range (not slowing the game) also hard CC plus armor dbuff on frost. I'd take frost over mirage for CC any day.

Can't be reapplied either. Oh, and HALF of the range is kind of a big deal.

Now don't get me wrong, I use CC Frost a lot in sortie. I love CC Frost I think he is one of the strongest frames in the game, but he doesn't do Interception better than Blind Mirage by a long shot.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

1 hour ago, Suira said:

Can't be reapplied either. Oh, and HALF of the range is kind of a big deal.

Now don't get me wrong, I use CC Frost a lot in sortie. I love CC Frost I think he is one of the strongest frames in the game, but he doesn't do Interception better than Blind Mirage by a long shot.

Anything else then interceptions? Excellent example as this is probably the only game mode where you have a benefit from stopping enemys this early... loosing theyr target is equal to stopping them. Given that you want them to stop of course (best game mode to farm xp) you could still grab a slow nova for that purpose ~  i mentioned frost as he is definitly better for survivals, defense missions...even excavations as the range is useless when the pots are spread on multiple points and you still need batterys.... Overranged hard CC sounds impressive but it's just as much curse as it is blessing and nothing unique on her >.>

Edited April 2, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[bl4ckhunter]

i'm all for LoS blind but to be fair sleight of hand should be replaced with something that isn't detrimental to the user too

[-Temp0-]

Better then remove it at all because with los it's = garbage. 

[Uzpian]

It's either like this:

Remove the need of LoS for Excal or Give Mirage's 4th the LoS nerf.

[-Temp0-]

The main question, why the heck was radial blind chaged (and when - I really rarely play Excal so no idea about that) like that and no longer making it "radial" and for what purpose? And what on earth that has to do with Mirage?

Edited April 2, 2016 by Nomen_Nescio

[AXCrusnik]

3 minutes ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

The main question, why the heck was radial blind chaged (and when - I really rarely play Excal so no idea about that) like that and no longer making it "radial" and for what purpose?

Balance?

3 minutes ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

And what on earth that has to do with Mirage?

They both use blinds... Consistency would be nice.

[-Temp0-]

What bloody balance? Radial blind was/is excal's only defense, especially while using exalted blade. Makes literally zero sense to make defensive ability only affect enemies that are literally just in front of you. And that's not even to mention, that if you don't build for radial blind only, you have only place for a stetch in order to save the damage, make room for vitality/quick thinking,ect. And that's mostly speculations. Probably again because of the people who were whining too much and crying that excal is too OP and they can't stand it even tho they obviously never use OP stuff themselves cause "challenge".

Quote

They both use blinds... Consistency would be nice.

No ...t. And outside of that, have completely different abilities, roles and stats. What's the point of having different frames then if once they have a similar (somewhat) ability it automatically makes people assume they use it for the same reason and they should obey the same rules? 

[Magneu]

4 hours ago, Suira said:

 

Hmmmm... where in that did I say to ask them to stop spamming Prism? You're right, I am wrong for asking people to change characters in the middle of the game. Bad suira bad bad.

If you're in a game then people will do what they want to do. It's this thing prior to the mission where you do things like "build a team comp" and "develop a strategy" that you bring up issues or concerns. Like if I am trying to speed run a T3 defense and someone wants to bring Blind Mirage I am obviously going to say something. I don't want Mirage spamming Prism making the waves take longer. I want to do 40 waves and gtfo.
Now if someone wants to bring damage Mirage then idc.
Same thing can be said with Slowva or CC Frost at a T3 defense. I don't want those frames.

Now if I am doing a Sortie where Blind Mirage matters or is helpful (ie defense, survival, mobile defense, interception and assassination) then idc. The CC is helpful and improves gameplay by keeping people from getting one shot. The only game mode where you don't attack enemies that are blinded is Interception, and interception is pretty much a bad game mode as is. So I am quite happy to sit there with my thumb up my &#! while the enemies wonder around blinded.

Warframes= a tool
High level missions= a problem that requires specific tools
I don't try and use a screw driver to change out my tires, I use a wrench. I don't try and use Blind Mirage for exterminate, I use Saryn (personal preference on Saryn).

I can see where the confusion happened; I thought you mean ask them to stop spamming Prism, when you meant ask them to change frames. Assuming the second scenario, it either ends in them saying yes, them quitting the group, or me having to remake the whole group because we can't kick. More than a bit obnoxious...and entirely unavoidable if I'm playing public (you know, seeing as the game is 95% based on group play). Yes, people can play what they want, but I should be able to load into a random game and actually have the chance to play, instead of running to spawn rooms and shooting oblivious enemies; that's just nullifiying half of the game there.

Your argument that missions require specific tools and the warframes are tools fails in regard the Warframe is a game that's meant to be enjoyed by those who play it. Mirage interferes with this in multiple regards; turning enemies into punching bags (no enemy counter-play to frames), denying certain frames the ability to even function fully (Nyx's Absorb, Chroma's Vex Armor, any frame running Rage, etc), and turning the entire game into a joke, where standing in one spot is the key to winning (hint hint, TLoR). You can easily set a macro to cast Prism every five seconds, move/attack every 10-20 seconds, drop a pad every 20 seconds, and tab out of the game for the entire intercept (yes, the only game mode this would *really* work. It works just fine on MD/Extraction/Defense, just check the game every twenty seconds, or have a second monitor). A single frame shouldn't be able to trivialize the entire game (not only for that player, but for everyone in the squad).   

Your argument that Blind Mirage makes the game easier by avoiding OHKO and such is a bad argument as well; multiple frames can either easily tank the damage (Inaros, Chroma, Wukong, Rhino, Nezha, Valkyr, even a Frost) or protect themselves (Globe, Electric Shield, literally any CC power). And before anyone tries arguing that "but at level 200 they get one shot!", (a) wrong, the above frames do have the capability to survive that, I've taken my Chroma to level 180 and shrugged off gunners and bombards), and (b), the game is balanced for 110-120 at very max (end of sortie 3 survival); don't try to stretch extremes to justify an argument.

Arguing that the CC is "helpful and improves gameplay" is fallacious to the extreme. Prism is a hard shutdown on any enemy activity, and as such, actively takes away from gameplay. If the objective of the group is "x waves/x minutes/x rounds", then yes, you could argue it enhances gameplay (assuming "gameplay" is getting the reward.

Saying that if I want to not play with a spammy Mirage I can use private matchmaking is directly detrimental to my (or any player not using such cheese) who tries to play a random game, forcing those people to have to recruit a group every time they want to run any moderately difficult mission. How is that fair to those people? Congratulations, a single frame just made the process of getting into a game more difficult for a large portion of the playerbase (you know, the ones that actually like playing the game, instead of Punching Bag Simulator). 

Arguing that "in a game, people will do what they want to do" is a stupid argument; by that logic, back when people couldn't roll to escape the Rift, it was perfectly alright if I went around as Limbo, joined random games, and Banished everyone I saw for teh lolz. I think we can all agree that's 100% trolling, and should not be a part of gameplay. Your argument is a double-edged sword; if people can do what they want in a match, I could throw Bounce pads on every objective/at you because you can't tell me to stop. By the same token, Mirage should have the ability to easily negate gameplay for the rest of the squad taken away.

[-Temp0-]

11 minutes ago, Magneu said:

spammy Mirage I can use private matchmaking is directly detrimental to my (or any player not using such cheese) who tries to play a random game, forcing those people to have to recruit a group every time they want to run any moderately difficult mission. How is that fair to those people? Congratulations, a single frame just made the process of getting into a game more difficult for a large portion of the playerbase (you know, the ones that actually like playing the game, instead of Punching Bag Simulator). 

Not really. So far you're the one nagging. That's what this community is known for, someone is always in someone's way, always makes your life harder or easier (too easy) and you can't enjoy something because of other people and the only solution is not to try to find a group of people that are bearable at least - it's to bring as much troubles and headache to the others as they did to you in return, make them pay.

And yep, if those missions are difficult why the f should you be able to complete them with a random team on the first try? Without the need to actually making a team and act as a team - for now you sounds like that one person who said that sortie should be hard and they should require you to think about your frame's choices but the second later said that he always goes in it with slow nova and only changes frames if he failed several times with her.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Nomen_Nescio

[Magneu]

1 hour ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

You have all your free will not teaming up with them. Done several T4I for ducats in the past 3 days, mirage was there exactly once (and it was a host... that ragequited over "bad" ev after not so many waves). It's not like you don't know what a person that brings it gonna use it ror. It's the same as saying nova don't slow or ash don't kill despite that's what they came here for and everyone knew what they'll be doing. You don't want an 'easy ride' - you alway have a choice. As should people who want it. Also have to tell that in some cases people do listen. When something that you're asking them for makes sense. In this case it does not so naturally no one is gonna do that. Especially if no one cared to bring at least support frames, tanks, ect and team consist of 1 cc and something uterelly useless that can't even hold 1 spot.

Honestly I had a worse luck today finding a sortie team without mag or ash in it than finding a team with meta frames like ev, frost and so on in the mission where it matters (like defense or interception).

Yeah get rid of trin, nova, ash, ember, vauban, banshee, ect while you're at it - why stop? Doesn't really matter that in other team those frames will be welcomed and their help and role will be appreciated. You're a special snowflake that wants to join a random team but apparently don't want to deal with the fact that is, in fact, will be random. Including Ash "stealing all those precious kills" or CC doing their job exactly as they should. The only somewhat reliable way to avoid any kind of unwanted behavior - is to assemble team yourself (or go into the team assambled by someone else that requires x x x and x frames you find bearable for this mission). Plain, simple, obvious. 

So I should never play public matchmaking? Great, good to know. I'll just trawl recruit any time I want to do anything difficult. Great logic. If someone built 100% for Prism is spamming and I ask them to stop, I'm betting good money they'll either ignore me, or get mad at me. Either/or, they won't stop. Saying that me asking them to stop doesn't make sense is an absolutely horrible argument. I'm asking them to stop so that I can actually play the full game instead of standing around waiting for the mission to end; how does that not make sense? It only, by a stretch makes sense if I'm only there for the reward instead of the gameplay, in which case, there's a bigger problem (or maybe I should take a break, in this hypothetical). Ideally, the game can be played with any medley of frames; yes, Frost makes defense much, much easier. But hell, I've done 60 waves of T3D as a n Equinox, with a friend as Oberon. Hardly the most ideal set-up, but it worked rather well.

All of the frames you've listed can't hold a candle to the capabilities of a Blind Mirage. Half of them lose the ability to kill quickly with abilities by sortie 2, a good 2-3 of them are support oriented, or can CC in a much smaller area than Mirage. I personally think Trinity and Ash are broken as now, but we all know how violently people react when their favorite P42W frame is touched (not even to mention Trinity...that's a whole nother can of worms). Do I raise a ruckus when they're in my game? I may roll my eyes when an Ash Bladestorms groups of three enemies, but I can go to another tile and continue my game there, or beat him to the kills. Trinity may (usually) supply me with (uneeded) energy, but that doesn't take away from gameplay. The rest of the frames can only affect small parts of the map at a time, so I'm free to move away or modify tactics to still contribute (not to mention the fact that frames like Banshee and Vauban are extremely fragile). But Mirage can shut-down almost 65 meters of map at a time, and spam that ability. If I wander outside of that radius, I'm most likely going to mess up spawns, or have left the objective, both actions that are detrimental to mission success.

How am I a special snowflake for wanting to play the game as it's meant to be played? All I want is an opportunity to do more than stand around twiddling my thumbs. Again, forcing people like me to go to recruiting chat to avoid a specific frame (and their gamebreaking abilities) is indicative that something is wrong with said frame.

[Magneu]

9 minutes ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

Not really. So far you're the one nagging. That's what this community is known for, someone is always in someone's way, always makes your life harder or esier (too easy) and you can't enjoy something because of other people and the only solution is not to try to find a group of people that are bearable at least - it's to bring as much troubles and headache to the others as they did to you in return, make them pay.

And yep, if those missions are difficult why the f should you be able to complete them with a random team on the first try? Without the need to actually making a team and act as a team - for now you sounds like that one person who said that sortie should be hard and they should require you to think about your frame's choices but the second later said that he always goes in it with slow nova and only changes frames if he failed several times with her.

Ignoring the fact that I'm "nagging" because I believe Prism is broken beyond belief as of now (and the red herring you're throwing out about the community), the diatribe about "making them pay" is a little concerning. At least, that's if I've deciphered it correctly; it's hard to actually figure out what you're trying to say here. Is it that I purposely play with people using tactics I don't like? Sorry, but I don't subscribe to that sort of masochism.

Sorties are difficult for some people, yes. Too bad I'm perfectly capable of soloing all of them except for Intercept (and sometimes Defense, depends on the map and the AI of the target that day), which is nigh impossible to solo due to the mechanics of the mode.

They should be completable with a random group of competent players; difficult, but completable. 

And for the record, I haven't played Slowva in several months, or for that matter any other FoTM frames. I'm that guy who takes Oberon/Chroma into a spy and still manages to complete two vaults before someone else triggers the alarms in the third. It's amazing what you can do when you don't rely on cheese.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Magneu

[NKDG]

I'll start off saying I agree with prism gaining LoS, but I also think it needs a faster casting animation if that happens. Thus, she can still defend herself if she misses a few key enemies. 

[-Temp0-]

Don't pretend that you bump into blind mirage or Ash every time you hit public. Those frames are rare. You most likely will never see them unless it's a sortie (and majority of players I happened to connect with in public are almost always mr20-21 there, so obvioulsy it's a whole different story).

Yeah surprise you kinda have to recruit. Unless you can deal with people not bringing your favourite toys to the party and you obviously can't. And yeah, majority here and in the void for the rewards - and not even prime parts, mainly ducats. Couldn't care less if it's lvl 20 corpus or lvl 100, what matters is sheev for example. 

Right, because Equnox is clearly not OP, nope sir. Yes it's more than just bearable setup.

Ash or Trin might - might be broken, but so is this blasted game and recent assasination sortie was a great example.

Quote

How am I a special snowflake for wanting to play the game as it's meant to be played? 

No such thing as "ment to be played". You play it as you see fit. You can always just say "guys let's do casual Draco or casual Void/sortie, just for the fun". No need to recruit anyone in majority of cases, like I said, if it's not sortie you're not likely to encounter them anyway. And that way you can leave farmers the hell alone with their camp-oriented void and so on, and everyone will get what they want in the end. 

Edited April 2, 2016 by Nomen_Nescio

[Inertzia]

2 minutes ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

Don't pretend that you bump into blind mirage or Ash every time you hit public. Those frames are rare. You most likely will never see them unless it's a sortie (and majority of players I happened to connect with in public are almost always mr20-21 there, so obvioulsy it's a whole different story).

Yeah surprise you kinda have to recruit. Unless you can deal with people not bringing your favourite toys to the party and you obviously can't. And yeah, majority here and in the void for the rewards - and not even prime parts, mainly ducats. Couldn't care less if it's lvl 20 corpus or lvl 100, what matters is sheev for example. 

Right, because Equnox is clearly not OP, nope sir. Yes it's more than just bearable setup.

Ash or Trin might - might be broken, but so is this blasted game and recent assasination sortie was a great example.

No such thing as "ment to be played". You play it as you see fit. You can always just say "guys let's do casual Draco or casual Void/sortie, just for the fun". No need to recruit anyone in majority of cases, like I said, if it's not sortie you're not likely to encounter them anyway. And thatt way you can leave farmers the hell alone with their camp-oriented void and so on, and everyone will get what they want in the end. 

Ash and Mirage are rare? O_O

Where do you play? In every second mission I go I see one sometimes even both of them

[(PSN)adam4213]

Adding LoS to Prism is one of the most stupidest ideas I have ever seen. Do that and you will destroy Prism. If Prism has LoS applied to it, then it will be no different from Excalibur's Radial Blind. They both have the same blind radius and blind duration. Radial Blind also opens enemies up to finishers, Prism does not. Not to mention one is a 4th ability while the other is only a 2nd ability. Do you see the problem here? The only thing separating these two abilities is LoS and since Prism is a 4th ability I think it's fine not having LoS. 

Edited April 2, 2016 by (PS4)adam4213

[FitzSimmons]

other than LoS, I personally think the blind range should be affected by how high the position of disco ball before it explodes. unless its at certain height, the blind won't use max range from power range mods.

[-Temp0-]

16 hours ago, Inertzia said:

Ash and Mirage are rare? O_O

Where do you play? In every second mission I go I see one sometimes even both of them

Ash actually might be sligtly more popular but even so, the only place with high chance to meet it is casual Draco. And some (only some) sortie missions where his presence makes sense. Mirage, especially blind, is rare af. Not as rare as Banshee of course or Oberon but still.

I mainly use Europe and North America (East) regions.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Nomen_Nescio

[EgAlia]

I don't see anything wrong with it, you can still throw the prism high in the air to blind enemies so, if I got it right. Just some additional skill to it. In my opionion I think that most of the cc abilities shouldn't have that high range to completly lockdown entire tilesets and also have the full effect of the range, unless they cost alot of energy so recasting it would be hard.

But also right now Mirage provides a solution(any cc frame in particular can do so she is just the best right now) to gamemodes where killing the enemies makes the mission harder aka interception and trials. These type of missions also forces you to stay still in a place where most enemies would kill you if you stand still. So as someone else said in this thread, by changing those type of missions I would be happy to see the cc abilities change.