New(er) Players and Griefing - an open Discussion (enormous Wall of Text)

[Nomine]

I don't want a mastery lock, i want a conclave rating lock so that players dont come with ALL level 0 gear to draco or similar level missions.

[Kerwin]

I dropped the game for nearly two years and I'm just coming back and I am confused more then ever.

[SYL3NZR]

1 hour ago, Nomine said:

I don't want a mastery lock, i want a conclave rating lock so that players dont come with ALL level 0 gear to draco or similar level missions.

conclave rating could work, its just a problem that companions inflat that quite a bit and many "useless" mods can be used to increase your rating while not really improving your usefulness

still probably a good point, ill try to somehow incorporate that later

[(XBOX)TheRoflLizard]

Ah,Happens with all MMO games, specially ones with guilds,clan, whatever they be.

Their is really no way to fix this without getting under someone skin.

 

If we rank lock planets. Well, I am still rank 10 and I have a crap ton of weapons and frames. And still need rank 12 to get some guns from 3 factions I maxed. And it is taking me really, long to do It, which can be grindy, rank lock is very (p2w) in a since because after a point you will have to break down and spend to have enough room to rank up. I mean a rank does not really define players worth in this game. It is basically, "How much stuff did you max".

 

If we block people from bring their low tier buddies from going to boss fights with them. Well, you can only think.

 

Honestly, It is like this. I was new, and I did not want to rush thou the content. Because, I wanted to taste it all so I can everything unlocked for drills. I still have a few things to finish but the point still stands. It is a matter of If you are new, that you do early game content so you actually know what you are doing.

 

We can blame the kind of meta nature of this game and how people would rather have some who has a OP frame they do not know, then a frame they are good with that is not needed at the time or considered passable because a better frame can do the job. Same with guns.

Everyone is, kind of to blame here. I do not think the people helping lowburts have any intent but to help them open all the maps so they can do more game content. (Honestly you can run a zero rank frame in the void in It's lower levels) But at the same time not letting them do the content to get to the points or at least, teaching them how to fight the boss will not help them.

 

 

I do not honestly think It is babying to a point, everyone in a MMO at one point was that person who needed help with one simple when a high lvl person could of helped you they either said yes or no. And we where pissed when the Person said "Lol,noob." and walked off. And we where grateful when someone went out of their way to help us If we where having trouble. But, we do need bosses explained and not just rushed thou, we need explained why a frame is good and not just pick it because OP,same with guns.

 

I do think Clans carrying a weight on this,do to number spaming and really becoming more of a numbers collector and less of a actual family, (Most clans in games that are massive suffer this) And helping them thou content, some doing It because they feel It is the right thing to do. Others, so they can get to the op stuff.

 

I do not really find that this is all done with Malcontent. But, really wanting to help someone. But,did not in the best way. You got the let people learn,otherwise they can not help themsevles.

 

Teach them to fish,Not give them one. Unless you know,they are having a hard time getting a single prime part. Then, give It If ya want.

 

 

[VoidNomade]

2 hours ago, SYL3NZR said:

conclave rating could work, its just a problem that companions inflat that quite a bit and many "useless" mods can be used to increase your rating while not really improving your usefulness

still probably a good point, ill try to somehow incorporate that later

Clans feed you with running credit maps and giving you mods, by the time you´re mr10 and conclave 1000+ you literally also don´t know a single bit about the game.

As i said earlier this thread this is way more complex than you think.

[YasaiTsume]

I power level people on Apollodorus.

I have a very strict objection to bringing a player somewhere they cannot hurt an enemy.

[carnaga]

15 hours ago, Darkforge33 said:

I think that using mastery rank to gate content could work, but only if they change the mastery tests so that they actually test the player's ability to handle that content. Currently they mostly boil down to "complete this arbitrary task with these arbitrary limitations." Mastery rank might actually mean something if the tests were more "complete this carefully balanced scenario that actually resembles a real mission using the tools at your disposal."

I love the way you put it :) 

To go just a notch deeper to your feedback and the idea: lets focus on raids. I would love the idea that you were trained for the mechanics for raid mission beforehand while going through normal nodes. Small puzzles here and there that we find familiar when entering raids - thought in raids this would be in much larger scale than in normal nodes. You know, small elements here and there that we find familiar.

With new starmap 3.0 progression this would be an awesome opportunity to implement it :) You go the progression and when you open higher tier planets the challenge is raised gradually to the point you are prepared for sorties and raids and other challenging stuff.  

And the MR tests are ridiculous. You know -- MR 15 test is an interception test and MR 18 test is harder version of the interception. So regarding your mastery rank test things you need to be MR18 to master an high tier interception missons xD

In this aspect people should ask in recruit channel: "H Sortie 3 interception. LF MR18."
Just because MR 18 player is guaranteed to know about the interception missions regarding the mastery tests :)

Edited April 3, 2016 by carnaga
corrections...

[SYL3NZR]

20 hours ago, KnaveOfSwords said:

snip

(this isnt quite directed at you btw)

well the intention of my question was; "is ignorance (in the sense of not knowing something) an excuse?"

If Squads decide they want to carry a low player thats obviously not griefing, but joining a squad without explicitly "asking for their permission" (in the sense of will you carry me cos i am useless) is griefing for me. As soon as anybody joins a mission, yes public ones included, without a loadout / the ability to deal with the content they are facing, you are dilberately hurting your team and i dont care how little some people say it is.

now to my intention: By law, not knowing of something will not protect you of punishment if you do "something bad". And lets be honest that is absolutely justified. ^{(and people dont even start nitpicking some ancient law in whatever country thats stupid, it shows you have no argument)} 

So even if everybody had a "free pass" once theres like 300k or much more players, thats up to 300k public games destroyed. good okay, for the sake of everyone we let it happen, but what stops them from doing it again? 

there needs to be a way to get rid of people ruining missions and theres 2 ways:

1. (Final Fantasy 14 Approach) you force people to play every content with small gates everywhere and streamline their progression to make sure if they reach XYZ thing, they are pretty much guaranteed to be useful, at least items and mod wise, its unlikely that a group of people decided to completely carry one person through the whole game
2. (World of Warcraft Approach) you implement mechanics that punish you for being horrible to your team // Most MMOs not only gate content alot, but also give the option to filter by certain criteria before people can even join their dungeons and groups AND the most important part is: A KICKFUNCTION if you perform bad you will be kicked constantly and be blocked from dungeon browsers for like half an hour, forcing you to step up your gameplay or never see content, this is self regulating and doesnt force "annoying hoops to jump through" onto you

And for the people saying "kick function leads to massive abuses", you know youre lying and excegerating, in 15 years of tonnes of different mmos, payday 1+2, killing floor, tf2, csgo etc. ive been kicked UNJUSTIFIED! maybe like 5 times? who cares? but do you know how many horrible people I and my teammates got rid of? literally countlessly many, if you dont want to implement something that helps the vast majority of people, for the sake of an abysmally small minority, you make me sick

 

[Currilicious]

If the player in question don't know any better, then yes, I can live with the ignorance. I did the same thing in multiple games, playing content way beyond my gear, unknowingly.

However, this is a very big "if". When I see a MR 18 bringing in gear with the combined level of 30, I know this dude is not here to contribute. He is exercising his self-entitled jackassery rights to leech off the work of others.

 

[Khormalys]

I think Warframe lacks proper content gating, explanation and introduction. Some says that locking "endgame" content is bad for new player but I think new players need to experiment the game before trying endgame content.

My suggestion would be to make the starter quest have every type of mission while the lotus guide you through it and maybe a quest introducing LOR with easier versions of the puzzles, as trials are nothing like the rest of the game. 

Also youtubers and the forums don't help new players a lot because they create the meta. I remember people saying in recruit channel "H LOR LF Peaceful provocation Equinox" right after H3dshot released his video on the augment. New player don't understand that certain setups can make a frame/weapon looks absolutely broken when there's 3 frames supporting it.

Edited April 4, 2016 by khydhy

[Darkforge33]

7 hours ago, khydhy said:

My suggestion would be to make the starter quest have every type of mission while the lotus guide you through it and maybe a quest introducing LOR with easier versions of the puzzles, as trials are nothing like the rest of the game.

This would definitely improve things. The interception portion might be a problem though. Soloing those can be almost impossible depending on the player's equipment and the map layout.

[Educated_Beast]

For those guys tired of carry on Draco when focus farming, here is a tip - do not capture any points.  

 

If your team consists of three leeches, kill everything, capture nothing, and let mission fail.  You keep focus, but they gain no XP.  Let them leech in private matches with friends.  

 

If focus could still be gained in solo stealth as fast as on Draco, I wouldn't even bother saying this but I am tired of low level leeches in games that have an entitlement mentality that I'm required to help them skip all the content I played through.  

 

It's one thing to ask, but I've never once been asked.  I rarely get a thank you for a revive (and my generosity of revives is getting low).  

 

I support a Mr lock on sorties around 8-12 for public matches only, but be warned - this will make Draco even more of a cesspool.

 

 

[Educated_Beast]

On 4/3/2016 at 7:26 AM, SYL3NZR said:

conclave rating could work, its just a problem that companions inflat that quite a bit and many "useless" mods can be used to increase your rating while not really improving your usefulness

still probably a good point, ill try to somehow incorporate that later

Love this idea, conclave could be used to "fix" draco.  Remove companion conclave rating from equation or make conclave very high.  

 

To do this, each mod needs to be revised.  Some just do not make any sense.  

 

This would allow focus farming, or leveling up a weapon, but make it so that bringing in nothing but a rank 0 is possible forcing you to equip more than one weapon due to conclave.  Leeches would be forced to bring gear to contribute and they would have to stay more than 1 wave.  

 

Love it, conclave lock Draco!

[Sonos]

This game is so newbie friendly it is off the charts.

[Feallike]

Definition of Grindy: Something of little enjoy ability that require a lot of time and effort to achieve. Is Warframe grindy per say? Not really. The only people who end up grinding are the people who choose to grind. I barely grind whatsoever and end up with all that I need at a given time. I am able to SOLO sorties with little trouble and I am not a OP Grinder Meta 420 player. I don't max out mods I do farm but I never do it to a extent that I find the game unenjoyable I always have atleast 3 things I want from a given mission when I grind it.

I full heartedly agree that their needs to be restrictions this is a game. Games have to have rules that is the definition of game. A game is something that has a preset idea that the players must do and will do. Those ideas must have rules and restrictions to keep the players from cheating their way to the end. What people seem to want sometimes is a activity or a hobby. Something that they can control and have full power over. A game can be a hobby, though a hobby CAN'T be a game. Giving players restriction such as MR locks is needed to create progression. Even if it is simply a number that gives no upgrades it needs to exist to represent progression.

I fully agree with the OP that Sorties and planets should be locked behind MR walls. This will both boost the players skill level and create a wall between the new and the vet. This also creates teirs in which low MR weapons are seen as something that someone can pick up and use while high MR weapons are more diverse and harder to use because of experience. This allows guns that require guns to build to be more gimmicky because you have already mastered the guns needed so their isn't a farming needed because you either have the gun or have the materials needed to create the gun.

One of my main issues with Warframe ATM is that the void seems to be the true endgame that is very very limited in what you can do after you are able to reach T4. That is why I like Starchart 3.0 because it allows the player to use the planets as endgame markers and creates a system where all maps are technically endgame. While planets are in a teir no planet is completed forgotten after a new one is unlocked. This can be furthered with Planet unique tile sets and MR locks forcing the player to experience the planet rather then rush through the game.

The DE if they want a progression system need to add: Planet specific resources, Planet specific Tile sets, MR locks to force you play planets, and allow endgame content to traverse between planets making it so that no planet is completely made obsolete. This creates endgame within beginner game. I think this is the plan with Starchart 3.0 atleast hopefully it is.

 

Edit: After thinking for a second I thought of something stupid that should exist. MAKE WEAPONS NOT APPEAR IN THE MARKET UNTIL YOU ARE ABLE TO BUILD THEM. This sounds dumb but it keeps the player from being overwhelmed by 15 weapons they can't even build. Also adding in a little NPC that gives you tips in the market on what to build next or gives you a brief explanation of the weapon type would do WONDERS. It would significantly increase the games new player experience for the game to explain how X type of weapons behaves instead of just giving a dumb little summery.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Feallike

[Feallike]

On 4/3/2016 at 11:53 PM, DeadlyPeanutt said:

since you obviously didn't read what I wrote and your response had nothing to do with the points I made, i'll simply repeat that playing the game with a non functional level 1-15 weapon teaches a player nothing about how to use the weapon.  

draco and other creative ways of leveling up weapons and frames allows players to have highly effective weapons more quickly.

therefore, it's arguable that such nodes keep players in the game and keep money flowing to the game developers.

now... would you actually like to respond to what I said this time? 

You can have a loot cave while not completely ruining the games balance. It is called loot cave teirs. You have a beginner loot cave on Mercury on the survival mission you have a mid game lootcave on Jupiter, and you have a endgame lootcave on Ceres. No beginner can access Ceres right away but they have their lootcave.

Also make it so that different missions can be lootcaved. Instead of specifically having 3 missions being able to lootcave give 90% of the mission ability with different variety of abilities this brings in the element of strategy! Instead of having to rely on metas they can simply just figure out their own way of doing it. This can be accomplished by toning down lootcaves and then balancing mission spawns so that you get similar results no matter how you do it. Warframe does this somewhat already but limits it to Void, Derlect, and Draco. It is best to open it up so that every planet has their own lootcave based on what a player wants to do to accomplish it. They can bring a large amount of combinations of frames and achieve good results on different planets without being limited to 3 combinations like we are now.

[SYL3NZR]

On 3.4.2016 at 5:09 PM, VoidNomade said:

Clans feed you with running credit maps and giving you mods, by the time you´re mr10 and conclave 1000+ you literally also don´t know a single bit about the game.

As i said earlier this thread this is way more complex than you think.

people carrying others to nodes / and giving them free S#&$ to boost them are a huge problem, but who is willing to admit that?