Saryn's DPS

[Djego27]

3 hours ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Back to the subject of saryn. Would changing the blocking bonus to armor increase or flat DR like eclipse and link make more sense?

Would be reasonable if it would be a 25% damage reduction(scaling with power strength) only active if you are in stance mode.

Since I did not do that in quite some time, I actually did feel like giving Saryn a run vs my most played frame and did a T3S melee only with Ember.

Overall given that you have a lot less EHP, you can't use corrosive and arson eximus literally laugh at you(it is really not fun to have 95% damage reduction by armor + 90% damage reduction by fire resistance as Ember) it is still more crisp and responsive as a melee frame then Saryn. Just more affected by stun lock QT bugs(because you go from 0 to 100% HP nearly every second), chances are very good that the chain stagger will kill you(happened twice to me).

In the end there is no good reason:

1. Why spore should not have a CC component, this would massively help in a caster build as well as in a melee build.

2. Why Molt should not have scaling elements that make it just as useful at L100 as it is at L30.

3. Why Toxic lash at least for single target damage should be limited to melee only. Saryn is lacking single target dps with ranged weapons, even melee it is not really up there with other melee frames and even has a hard time against my all time favourite caster frame at melee range, that got a truckload of other drawbacks saryn actually does not even face in the same situation.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Djego27

[Rambit23Z]

5 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

Would be reasonable if it would be a 25% damage reduction(scaling with power strength) only active if you are in stance mode.

That seems really low. You would need almost max Power Strength to get what you can (potentially) get with current Toxic Lash. Maybe a base of 50% with a cap around 75ish%?

[Ivan_Rid]

1 minute ago, Rambit23Z said:

That seems really low. You would need almost max Power Strength to get what you can (potentially) get with current Toxic Lash. Maybe a base of 50% with a cap around 75ish%?

And that seems too high. Actually rather than buffing herself up Saryn should debuff enemies with damage reduction, imo.

[Rambit23Z]

5 minutes ago, Ivan_Rid said:

And that seems too high. Actually rather than buffing herself up Saryn should debuff enemies with damage reduction, imo.

It's still lower than the current cap of 90%. You trade off raw damage reduction for not needing to worry about reaction times, directions and choosing between blocking and attacking. Also, Shatter Shield is a thing at 95%, Ice Chromas can reach roughly 95% through sheer armour. And of course, Trinity and Valkyr.

 

As for your suggestion; depends on how much range said debuff should have.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Rambit23Z

[Djego27]

15 minutes ago, Rambit23Z said:

That seems really low. You would need almost max Power Strength to get what you can (potentially) get with current Toxic Lash. Maybe a base of 50% with a cap around 75ish%?

With my 196% ish power strength melee build that is close to a 50% damage reduction on top of armor, the HP and the energy pool what is quite powerful. This is not Valkyr\Chroma\Inaros levels of EHP, but still very good. In a melee build it is a realistic 8k EHP pool(I am not counting in the full energy on this), compared to Ember where you work on a 3.5k EHP pool that is still sufficient to get you over a hour in solo melee only survival with the frame.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Djego27

[ThatOddDeer]

5 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

With my 196% ish power strength melee build that is close to a 50% damage reduction on top of armor, the HP and the energy pool what is quite powerful. This is not Valkyr\Chroma\Inaros levels of EHP, but still very good. In a melee build it is a realistic 8k EHP pool(I am not counting in the full energy on this), compared to Ember where you work on a 3.5k EHP pool that is still sufficient to get you over a hour in solo melee only survival with the frame.

Not everyone wants to run QT, I know I don't, and when eclipse and link can reach 95% and 75% respectively for 50 and 75 energy respectively I don't think 50% base for 50 energy that scales up to 75% or 95% isn't unreasonable. If I were to run it it'd be 50% base up 75% for 50 energy at all times. This is weaker than the current max but makes it useable at all times by all forms of saryn but still makes you want to melee because now it stacks with blocking.

[Rambit23Z]

1 minute ago, Djego27 said:

With a 200% ish power strength melee build that is close to a 50% damage reduction on top of armor the HP and the energy pool it is quite powerful. This is not Valkyr\Chroma\Inaros levels of EHP, but still very good. In a melee build it is a realistic 8k EHP pool(I am not counting in the full energy on this), compared to Ember where you work on a 3.5k EHP pool that is still sufficient to get you over a hour in solo melee only survival with the frame.

You need to remember what you sacrifice for that Power Strength though. I currently run 155% (Transient Fortitude), adding any more would compromise both mod slots and other Power related stats.

Also, Ember possesses relatively reliable and constant CC with WoF plus an on-demand AOE stun with accelerant. Whereas Saryn is lacking in the CC aspect. (Especially considering duration varies depending on enemy type, as stated by ThatOddDeer)

Maybe cap at 65% or 70%?

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

On 4/4/2016 at 10:46 PM, ForumPirate said:

Except toxic lash. and molt spreading spores/purging status/diverting fire/regenerating hp. Only 3 of her 4 abilities are incredibly good. Trash frame. Abandon ship.

Idea here: toxic lash works on all weapons, not just melee, but does 1/2 half toxin damage on secondaries, and 1/3 toxin damage on primaries. Also, if spore carrier is destroyed completely (looking at the tonkor because we do not support meta weapons here) spore effect is lost on that enemy, not spread. Using a primary or secondary while toxic lash is up will mean Saryn isn't sad during a primary only sortie. Or when melee gets a little too difficult around hordes of high level energy blocking/sapping enemies

I'm not sure why I specifically quoted you ForumPirate, just grabbed someone and started talking.

Edited April 11, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Its been a long day

[ThatOddDeer]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Idea here: toxic lash works on all weapons, not just melee, but does 1/2 half toxin damage on secondaries, and 1/3 toxin damage on primaries. Also, if spore carrier is destroyed completely (looking at the tonkor because we do not support meta weapons here) spore effect is lost on that enemy, not spread. Using a primary or secondary while toxic lash is up will mean Saryn isn't sad during a primary only sortie. Or when melee gets a little too difficult around hordes of high level energy blocking/sapping enemies

I'm not sure why I specifically quoted you ForumPirate, just grabbed someone and started talking.

Thing is, the chances of that happening are slim to none. [DE] wants her to be melee oriented so we've been offering solutions to make toxic lash always useable while keeping it from making her not want to be melee oritented. In that endeavor we've tried to mimic speed/warcry's theme of 100% effective with melee 50% effective without by keeping it a defensive buff for saryn as a whole rather than trying to re-invent the ability from the ground up. 

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

DE walks into room and hands out new toy* "this is saryn, she is a melee based caster frame"

tenno children pick up toy and start messing with it* "Saryn is a tank!" Saryn is an Aoe nuker frame!" 

DE becomes furious and slams fist on table* "she is a melee based caster frame and that is final!"

DE snatches the toy back from disgruntled children, rips off 200 health decreasing survivability but graciously gives huge energy pool while creating two melee centered abilities (gaining energy from spores...). Then hands toy back and stomps out of the room*

[RealPandemonium]

5 hours ago, Rambit23Z said:

It's still lower than the current cap of 90%. You trade off raw damage reduction for not needing to worry about reaction times, directions and choosing between blocking and attacking. Also, Shatter Shield is a thing at 95%, Ice Chromas can reach roughly 95% through sheer armour. And of course, Trinity and Valkyr.

 

As for your suggestion; depends on how much range said debuff should have.

Keep in mind that if it was generic damage reduction while in melee mode it would also stack with blocking, bringing the situational damage reduction % much higher.  

[Rambit23Z]

3 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Keep in mind that if it was generic damage reduction while in melee mode it would also stack with blocking, bringing the situational damage reduction % much higher.  

Yes, but what about Mesa, Mirage and the others? If they can reach 95%, I feel it's fine if Saryn can reach 65Ish%.

[RealPandemonium]

40 minutes ago, Rambit23Z said:

Yes, but what about Mesa, Mirage and the others? If they can reach 95%, I feel it's fine if Saryn can reach 65Ish%.

Saryn's DR would have the least limiting condition to gain her DR, and I would rather keep things usable but realistic instead of piling on more DR creep that may have to be adjusted in the future.  

[Djego27]

2 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Not everyone wants to run QT, I know I don't, and when eclipse and link can reach 95% and 75% respectively for 50 and 75 energy respectively I don't think 50% base for 50 energy that scales up to 75% or 95% isn't unreasonable. If I were to run it it'd be 50% base up 75% for 50 energy at all times. This is weaker than the current max but makes it useable at all times by all forms of saryn but still makes you want to melee because now it stacks with blocking.

 

1 minute ago, Rambit23Z said:

You need to remember what you sacrifice for that Power Strength though. I currently run 155% (Transient Fortitude), adding any more would compromise both mod slots and other Power related stats.

Also, Ember possesses relatively reliable and constant CC with WoF plus an on-demand AOE stun with accelerant. Whereas Saryn is lacking in the CC aspect. (Especially considering duration varies depending on enemy type, as stated by ThatOddDeer)

Maybe cap at 65% or 70%?

75% gives you nearly Inaros\Valkyr\Chroma EHP levels. However Valkyr and Chroma actually have to stack a lot more then just 200% power strength for that while Inaros is is the typical DE "derp" of what would be a suitable HP value without shields. 25% base is in my opinion fairly reasonable and much better then the extra damage reduction while blocking(what you can't do during melee combos or while getting shot from all directions at the same time). It makes melee with a normal caster build less suicidal and if the frame gets some CC to spores, ending the need to spam a expensive and long cast animation miasma for CC, would be a very good melee frame.

I pointed out multiple times that spores should have CC, like 3s when first applied and 1s when you pop one with direct melee or weapon damage(no Ignis\Hiku prime map wide CC).

[Rambit23Z]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

Saryn's DR would have the least limiting condition to gain her DR, and I would rather keep things usable but realistic instead of piling on more DR creep that may have to be adjusted in the future.  

What do you suggest, then?

20 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

 

75% gives you nearly Inaros\Valkyr\Chroma EHP levels. However Valkyr and Chroma actually have to stack a lot more then just 200% power strength for that while Inaros is is the typical DE "derp" of what would be a suitable HP value without shields. 25% base is in my opinion fairly reasonable and much better then the extra damage reduction while blocking(what you can't do during melee combos or while getting shot from all directions at the same time). It makes melee with a normal caster build less suicidal and if the frame gets some CC to spores, ending the need to spam a expensive and long cast animation miasma for CC, would be a very good melee frame.

I pointed out multiple times that spores should have CC, like 3s when first applied and 1s when you pop one with direct melee or weapon damage(no Ignis\Hiku prime map wide CC).

I'd say increase the base and put a cap on it.

[Xarteros]

Deleted my post because I ignorantly responded to the OP without seeing 17 pages of fleshed out conversation and rebuttals.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Xarteros

[Rambit23Z]

12 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

-Snip-

Sure she's not weak. (I got 75% damage and similar kills during the alert as Saryn too) But the main focus here is inconsistencies and anti-synergy. I strongly recommend you read at least the last 7 pages or more. The issues are explained very well by ThatOddDeer on those pages.

[Xarteros]

1 hour ago, Rambit23Z said:

Sure she's not weak. (I got 75% damage and similar kills during the alert as Saryn too) But the main focus here is inconsistencies and anti-synergy. I strongly recommend you read at least the last 7 pages or more. The issues are explained very well by ThatOddDeer on those pages.

Thanks mate, will do. If there's something I can comment on, I'll delete my previous post and put it there, or here, or something.

I didn't realise there were already 17 pages when I posted XD

[ThatOddDeer]

4 hours ago, Djego27 said:

-snip-

I pointed out multiple times that spores should have CC, like 3s when first applied and 1s when you pop one with direct melee or weapon damage(no Ignis\Hiku prime map wide CC).

while I would love spores having CC, that would make it even closer to a miniature version of Molecular prime and we all know how powerful that ability is. 

That's why I've been trying to reinforce saryn's powers in other areas to avoid overloading spore more than it currently is.

[Xarteros]

On 08/04/2016 at 11:17 AM, ThatOddDeer said:

Since it's been a long time since I posted them, let's posit some saryn changes to put her into the melee debuffer frame role the devs seemed to have created for her.

 

1. Spore: Mostly fine as is. Would remove the arbitrary limit on only 1 spore can transmit toxin procs and make it so that it keeps track of all toxin procs rather than just the largest (it's supposed to combine but it really doesn't seem to do that very well not even with a lanka built for gas)

2. Molt: This ability has a lot of problems. It does not inherit saryn's aggro so enemies may very well still target saryn instead of molt ( I label this molt bug 1). It does not scale in any fashion other than power strength and does not gain aggro range like from power range unlike Loki's decoy( I label this as bug 2). My suggestion is to make it similar to snowglobe/tectonics/iron skin in which it inherits saryn's hp and/or armor value or has a small  period where instead of gaining hp from damage it stays at exactly 1hp for 2-4 seconds, allowing guaranteed aggro draw time while also allowing a skilled saryn player to time miasma to get the full benefit from a low hp molt.

3: Toxic lash. Probably saryn's most loved/hated ability. In order to maintain her identity as the melee debuffer caster I offer a few changes to make toxic lash have more synergy and less anti-synergy that it currently does.

First off I would change toxic lash's blocking bonus, wasted on most weapon types if you even build power strength, to either % damage reduction like eclipse or link or an armor increase; the armor increase would make sense if we make molt scale off armor, it's another source of power synergy. This would also allow saryn to at least make use of the ability even without a melee equipped, this makes it more balanced like speed or warcry which resemble the pattern of working at 100% potential with melee but still usable without.

Secondly, to reduce it's anti synergy I would take toxic lash not able to remove the last spore from an enemy, since that punishes you for trying to load up a target with toxic lash's poison. Furthermore, allowing toxic lash to restore more energy if you kill the target with a toxic lash buffed melee strike, 6 energy for 3 spores or 4 energy for 2 spores, and making it count as if the enemy didn't die by hitting a spore a saryn player would feel better about loading up a single target with toxic lash and wouldn't be punished for doing a lot of damage. I would also either make toxic lash's energy return scale from 1/2/3/4 or maybe allow the base 2 energy to scale with power strength

 

4 Miasma: By nuke standards this ability is lame. Requires either 162.5 energy or a very specific build to make full use of, has a CC that depends on enemy body type and doesn't scale with duration mods, on top of poor base range, which is acceptable for the melee debuffer frame, and the time investment to make this ability shine is not logical. This ability demonstrates co-dependency among abilities rather than any synergy, which I define as greater than the sum of its parts rather than needing all its parts to be equal to comparable alternatives. To change this ability to fit the corrosive blast wave fantasy it presents and to fit with saryn's debuffer and DoT theme, I would add a small % max armor per tick of miasma armor shred. However this small % max armor per tick could be augmented for every spore currently on the target, or by the same mechanic of counting if the target has viral and toxin procs, allowing further syngery between her whole kit and allowing her access to every type of debuff she could want that fits her toxic theme. I mean come on, if shurikens, sound, ice, trin's link, fear and soon-to-be magnets can shred % max armor, the corrosive blastwave could use similar treatment.

Gonna quote this to bring it back to the surface because it's full of great ideas.

Questions on Miasma, would you give it the same treatment that you and Rambit suggested for Toxic Lash; preventing it from popping the last spore on an enemy?

Also, what do you think about leaving Miasma behind as a static cloud? Would it need to mechanically change how it interacts with spores and molts if that were the case? The notion of having it emanate from Saryn like World on Fire was also cool, but if one of those two styles were picked I'd definitely want an augment to open the other option up too. I personally think the style of a persistent cloud effect thematically suits Saryn the best. Currently Miasma functions more like a high-speed goop-spray that can't remain airborne, and if we're going to have an awesome, armour eating noxious gas, it ought to be persistent.

If we go with the previously mentioned armour shredding Miasma, triggering spores for additional effect, do you think a persistent cloud would be too OP? My thinking is that having an active Miasma cloud would allow enemies within to continue to have spores spread to them, making each Miasma tick strip those spores back and shred even more armour. I imagine if we took a toned-down version of your mock-up values of 5-10% it would be a bit more reasonable, but I'm not great at estimating stats and perceiving exploits/loopholes when I'm tired.

If we had both persistent Miasma clouds and armour shred on Miasma ticks, it would actually give Saryn a bit of synergy with other Saryn's. Not saying it'd be ideal, but a Saryn pimped for duration and a bit of efficiency could make nice big Miasma clouds everywhere, and a hardcore Spore-build Saryn could maximise those clouds for armour shredding deliciousness

Keep up the diligent work mate! You and a few of the others here are some of the few decent people I've seen posting on long forum threads, and it's great to see actual constructive thoughts everywhere

[ThatOddDeer]

3 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

Questions on Miasma, would you give it the same treatment that you and Rambit suggested for Toxic Lash; preventing it from popping the last spore on an enemy?

Also, what do you think about leaving Miasma behind as a static cloud? Would it need to mechanically change how it interacts with spores and molts if that were the case? The notion of having it emanate from Saryn like World on Fire was also cool, but if one of those two styles were picked I'd definitely want an augment to open the other option up too. I personally think the style of a persistent cloud effect thematically suits Saryn the best. Currently Miasma functions more like a high-speed goop-spray that can't remain airborne, and if we're going to have an awesome, armour eating noxious gas, it ought to be persistent.

 

Firstly, thanks for the compliment. Helps to have some positiveity when people constantly try to tear down video proof with proof-less arguments and insults to my personal self.

Having Miasma as a static cloud fits her role and desire to be in melee more than the current goop-spray model. On the topic of making miasma not remove the last spore when cast with miasma, I'd like to test it out with and without it before making a final judgement. I want to say removing all the spores because ideally you'd press 4 as your finisher move, which is what miasma seems to be intended to be, and then all your built up DoTs from a properly functioning spore and toxic lash. Come to think that only makes sense under the goo-spray model. If we want to make her more melee and DoT oriented that would make sense to make it not remove the last spore, tone down the base % of armor shred and allow it to rip armor away from spore infested crowds saryn decides to visit in person. I like that idea.

9 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

If we had both persistent Miasma clouds and armour shred on Miasma ticks, it would actually give Saryn a bit of synergy with other Saryn's. Not saying it'd be ideal, but a Saryn pimped for duration and a bit of efficiency could make nice big Miasma clouds everywhere, and a hardcore Spore-build Saryn could maximise those clouds for armour shredding deliciousness

 

Currently saryn's have to fight over whose spores are applied and would like to see that fixed as  well and this kind of change would bring at least a workable model of synergy.

To come up with new numbers and mechanics for a miasma that follows saryn I suggest this

x/x/x/5% armor shred per tick of miasma which ticks every second in a 10 (15?) meter Area around saryn that follows her.

Instead of a CC based on enemy body type, Miasma now blinds for .5/1/1.5/2 seconds after a tick in a smaller 5( 10?) meter radius around her where the fumes are particularly volatile.

Similar energy costs to world on fire since that's what the ability is modeled after for the moment.

Miasma mutates under certain conditions. When an enemy is afllicted by toxin proc(s) and viral proc the base damage is increased by 100% for the presence of each for a total of 300% base damage(could be lowered if the changes make it too strong, I would prefer to see a debuffer saryn rather than a nuker saryn). Additionally, for each spore on the target when they are afflicted by miasma's damage reacts violently open,  and multiplies the armor shred by to x/x/x/15% per tick.

 

 

[Djego27]

5 hours ago, Rambit23Z said:

 

I'd say increase the base and put a cap on it.

Saryn with just a vitality got 1618 effective EHP in health + 300 shield making it 1918 in total. Ember prime in comparison got only 1423.

Saryn with a vitality and steel fibre got a effective EHP of 2380 of health + 300 of shield to a total of 2680.

Even without any power strength you get to 2557 just with a vitality form that 25% at base. With vitality and TF it would be 3131 what is more then a melee build with steel fibre got currently and more then a Ember prime with vitality, steel fibre, QT and primed flow has to work with. In my melee build it would be 5254, what is currently the EHP of my Saryn + a 417 energy converted by QT(that is more then halve the energy pool). In comparison Inaros got 15708 with vitality and steel fibre(without using scarab armor) what is certainly good enught for 1h solo into T4S melee only.

1 hour ago, ThatOddDeer said:

while I would love spores having CC, that would make it even closer to a miniature version of Molecular prime and we all know how powerful that ability is. 

That's why I've been trying to reinforce saryn's powers in other areas to avoid overloading spore more than it currently is.

Think of it more like the short stun on banshees silence when the ability is first applied + another interrupt when you pop a spore with a direct hit by ranged or melee weapon. It gives you some control over your targets, while it is not recast able AOE stun(that is still present in miasma) it is certainly something to work with at high levels.

[Rambit23Z]

46 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

Saryn with just a vitality got 1618 effective EHP in health + 300 shield making it 1918 in total. Ember prime in comparison got only 1423.

Saryn with a vitality and steel fibre got a effective EHP of 2380 of health + 300 of shield to a total of 2680.

Even without any power strength you get to 2557 just with a vitality form that 25% at base. With vitality and TF it would be 3131 what is more then a melee build with steel fibre got currently and more then a Ember prime with vitality, steel fibre, QT and primed flow has to work with. In my melee build it would be 5254, what is currently the EHP of my Saryn + a 417 energy converted by QT(that is more then halve the energy pool). In comparison Inaros got 15708 with vitality and steel fibre(without using scarab armor) what is certainly good enught for 1h solo into T4S melee only.

Ember is not a melee frame though, so she's obviously gonna be more squishy and has lots of reliable CC.

Let's compare that 5k EHP to other frames. 

(These numbers are based on my current builds)

Numbers in parentheses are shields.

Ice Chroma: 27172(300) EHP + 5.34 damage multiplier.

Warcry Valkyr: 6847(150) EHP.

Mirage (In shadows): 14405(4800) EHP + decoys.

Mesa: 22508(4500) EHP -melee enemies.

 

Looking at these side by side kinda makes it look way out of balance. The point is that 5k is a bit low for a melee frame (Valkyr doesn't really count due to Hysteria). With 75% damage reduction, a Saryn Prime with Steel Fiber will land at 9521(1200) EHP. A decent number while still being on the lower end of damage reductions.

 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Rambit23Z

[Djego27]

43 minutes ago, Rambit23Z said:

Ember is not a melee frame though, so she's obviously gonna be more squishy and has lots of reliable CC.

Let's compare that 5k EHP to other frames. 

(These numbers are based on my current builds)

Numbers in parentheses are shields.

Ice Chroma: 27172(300) EHP + 5.34 damage multiplier.

Warcry Valkyr: 6847(150) EHP.

Mirage (In shadows): 14405(4800) EHP + decoys.

Mesa: 22508(4500) EHP -melee enemies.

 

Looking at these side by side kinda makes it look way out of balance. The point is that 5k is a bit low for a melee frame (Valkyr doesn't really count due to Hysteria). With 75% damage reduction, a Saryn Prime with Steel Fiber will land at 9521(1200) EHP. A decent number while still being on the lower end of damage reductions.

 

If you count in QT it can be 15k(takes like 700 energy). What is in the same ballpark of Inaros that I can use without QT or primed flow in a 1h T4 melee run.

My Valkyr with QT is also well over 15k in build I did use before the hysteria changes.

Overall the numbers with QT are very reasonable and in line with other melee focused frames, with the benefit that it does also work in a caster build to a certain extend.

[Rambit23Z]

1 minute ago, Djego27 said:

If you count in QT it can be 15k(takes like 700 energy). What is in the same ballpark of Inaros that I can use without QT or primed flow in a 1h T4 melee run.

My Valkyr with QT is also well over 15k in build I did use before the hysteria changes.

Overall the numbers with QT are very reasonable and in line with other melee focused frames, with the benefit that it does also work in a caster build to a certain extend.

Frames should not and are not balanced around QT. I only use it on one frame, which is Trin due to Blessing mechanics. And the stagger is potentially lethal in some situations.