Saryn's DPS

[tnccs215]

13 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

Okay so we can both agree that the viral proc is not exactly effective versus a high armored target? It may be so on paper, but you don't notice it in game.

No, we dont agree on that.

 

13 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

 In practice the enemy has resistance to this proc,

No, they dont. Thats the beauty of it

 

13 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

 

 

Because as I said before 50% hp reduction should mean that that hp bar should be cut in half imho

 

I think you are having a really hard time understanding that the visual representation that occurs doesnt fit what actually happens.

As the wiki says, the proc cuts down both current health and maximum health by half. That means it is like the health the enemy originally sports became half, so it still appears has full, even though it actually has half he value it originally did. That is why toxin damage from Chroma does half the damage to a viral'd enemy that it does to a "healthy" one: Because the maximum health is cut in half. It just isn't represented graphically. The world is more than what meets the eyes.

Edited April 4, 2016 by tnccs215

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

6 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

The HP bar IS cut in half, but because you do piddly amounts of damage, the TTK is still unreasonably high.  It's just that before you applied Viral, the TTK was even more unreasonably high; it was double.  Viral proc is just as effective against armored targets as it is against unarmored targets; it just doesn't mean much when an enemy started out requiring your whole ammo pool to kill.  To be effective against superhigh level Grineer (80+) and especially the heavies, you need to be able to strip/ignore their armor, or to have egregious base damage values.  Viral makes it twice as easy to kill them, though, so you could get away with using a less powercreeped weapon to get similar performance to something like Tonkor, SancTigris, etc.. 

So it means nothing. Even if the HP bar is actually cut in half. The damage output is so minimal with high damage mitigation that it doesn't even matter.

So fundamentally, unless you are proccing at 1000 times per seconds like what you can so with spore, It's not good for armored targets thus not good for endgame (unless you CP the game or melt armor). I concede that it actually reduces the hp in half but  with the armor it still takes loads of viral procs and damage to kill something. 

Basically yea it removed 50% of the hp but in practice it means nothing.

so why doesn't Miasma melt armor?

Edited April 4, 2016 by Eureka.seveN

[tnccs215]

14 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

So fundamentally, unless you are proccing at 1000 times per seconds like what you can so with spore, It's not good for armored targets thus not good for endgame

Kinda, yes.

but it doesn't matter for the conversation at hand.

because with Saryn you can.

so she is viable to endgame.

the only conclusion you reached with that post is that level 200 enemies are near impossible to kill. But that we already knew, and it applies to all frames. And between near impossible and half near impossible, I'll choose half near impossible every time.

And this is without counting the fact that, the more durable the enemies, the more spores you get on each one, so her damages scales with enemy number and level.

 

(oh, and you just have to be able to proc it once every 8 seconds. Like my trustworthy dragon nikana. Built for slash and viral procs)

Edited April 4, 2016 by tnccs215
best kind of mistake.

[Rambit23Z]

2 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

(oh, and you just have to be able to proc it once every 6 seconds. Like my trustworthy dragon nikana.)

8 seconds actually and 10 for Saryn. (Passive)

[tnccs215]

Just now, Rambit23Z said:

8 seconds actually and 10 for Saryn. (Passive)

even better.

[RealPandemonium]

20 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

So it means nothing. Even if the HP bar is actually cut in half. The damage output is so minimal with high damage mitigation that it doesn't even matter.

So fundamentally, unless you are proccing at 1000 times per seconds like what you can so with spore, It's not good for armored targets thus not good for endgame (unless you CP the game or melt armor). I concede that it actually reduces the hp in half but  with the armor it still takes loads of viral procs and damage to kill something. 

Basically yea it removed 50% of the hp but in practice it means nothing.

so why doesn't Miasma melt armor?

Not sure what you mean by "proccing with spore" means, but in essence, if your damage is really low it's still gonna be low after a Viral proc despite being effectively doubled.  

The main problem is with scaling armor values in general, which make Grineer EHP grow at many times the rate of other factions' EHP.  If armor didn't increase with level or increased at a very, very low rate (and Grineer had their base HP increased to compensate for this and bring them around the level of other factions' durability) then this wouldn't be a problem.  Because DE just introduced weapons that were excessively strong (and sprinkled some armor bandaids randomly, such as in Frost's 4 and some augments) instead of fixing the armor scaling problem, the community has this skewed perception that everything that doesn't ignore armor or isn't a Tonkor is weak, when in reality the system is fundamentally broken and does not allow for option diversity the way it was initially supposed to.  

 

 

Why does Miasma not strip armor?  I think everyone is thinking the same thing, except for DE, apparently.  Miasma actually did have a proc chance for a hotfix or two but that ended up being a bug and was removed.  So IDK what DE is thinking, and we'll never know because they hardly ever tell us anything outside of devstreams (lol) or the occasional twitter post (of all places.)

Edited April 4, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[tnccs215]

3 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Not sure what you mean by "proccing with spore" means, but in essence, if your damage is really low it's still gonna be low after a Viral proc despite being effectively doubled.  The main problem is with scaling armor values in general, which make Grineer EHP grow at many times the rate of other factions' EHP.

Why does Miasma not strip armor?  I think everyone is thinking the same thing, except for DE, apparently.  Miasma actually did have a proc chance for a hotfix or two but that ended up being a bug and was removed.  So IDK what DE is thinking, and we'll never know because they hardly ever tell us anything outside of devstreams (lol) or the occasional twitter post (of all places.)

specially when frost's ultimate does.

it doesn't make that much sense to me.

[RealPandemonium]

1 minute ago, tnccs215 said:

specially when frost's ultimate does.

it doesn't make that much sense to me.

Frost's kit in particular is way overloaded now IMO.  He has long-lasting medium-wide range permaCC, a built-in armor bandaid, freaking snowglobe (which can now be stacked infinitely,) and the ability to deal 50% of max HP as Finisher damage with his freeze-knockback gimmicks (in AOE with snowglobe no less.)  Avalanche is also a pretty strong radial nuke as well, though this thread seems to be all about how no one appreciates radial nukes anymore now that exalted cheese is all the rage.  

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

22 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Kinda, yes.

but it doesn't matter for the conversation at hand.

because with Saryn you can.

so she is viable to endgame.

the only conclusion you reached with that post is that level 200 enemies are near impossible to kill. But that we already knew, and it applies to all frames. And between near impossible and half near impossible, I'll choose half near impossible every time.

And this is without counting the fact that, the more durable the enemies, the more spores you get on each one, so her damages scales with enemy number and level.

 

(oh, and you just have to be able to proc it once every 8 seconds. Like my trustworthy dragon nikana. Built for slash and viral procs)

yes and no. I have done spore builds en endgame, and compared to other frames its very underwhelming, Like i said before proccing viral 100x times will make her melt through higher armored enemies, but for endgame it takes too long to do so. Which is why miasma armor melt should be a thing.

[tnccs215]

10 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

yes and no. I have done spore builds en endgame, and compared to other frames its very underwhelming, Like i said before proccing viral 100x times will make her melt through higher armored enemies, but for endgame it takes too long to do so. Which is why miasma armor melt should be a thing.

That is why Saryn is no longer a pure dps frame. She is a dps debuffer, which is substantially more helpful for the team.

However, lets be realistic: Not that many people can, try or bother to go against level 300+ enemies, and by that time every damage is ridiculously small. And with that level, you'll probably manage to get at least 50 spores on an enemy. Add the viral proc, and you effectively double the damage (by halving their health). Go full CP, and you mutiply that by 1,50. She scales well. She scales very well. And she still doesnt cheese. That beats excaliboring for me.

But yes, miasma stripping armor should be a thing.

Edited April 4, 2016 by tnccs215

[Rambit23Z]

42 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

yes and no. I have done spore builds en endgame, and compared to other frames its very underwhelming, Like i said before proccing viral 100x times will make her melt through higher armored enemies, but for endgame it takes too long to do so. Which is why miasma armor melt should be a thing.

You do know that Viral doesn't stack, right? As tnccs215 said, proc it once every 10 seconds (Which is basically automatic for Saryn) and you're good to go.

 

Also, the biggest issue is that people get tunnelvision and focus on the damage to one target. Lategame, if done properly, you can have unholy amounts of DOT's.

Spores tick for around 50ish damage (155% Power strength) and usually has 3 spores and more on one single target.

Then there's the Toxin procs which can hit really hard depending on the damage used to pop it.

Then, add on 3000-5000 damage per Miasma tick. With my build, I can keep Miasma running for relatively long lategame.

Then double all that due to everyone having half health.

And then multiply that by the amount of enemies affected. This can be anywhere from 15 to 100+.

And that's with my Self-sufficient build which has a fair share of defensive mods. I have another for pure damage.

 

EDIT: Forgot to mention to multiply that AGAIN by the duration, which for anything but Miasma is always.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Rambit23Z
Duration and such

[Suira]

You know what, Eureka you are absolutely right. DE, please buff Saryn. I want to pull bigger DPS numbers. I am not satisfied with just being top DPS all of the time, I want to rub peoples faces in it.

Now Eureka, I have read some cool and interesting ideas on how to make Saryn "better". The issue is, most everyone feels like she does not need a buff. She is functioning just fine as is right now. If she were to get buffed to the point where she could replace CP then that would be an issue.
One Warframe should not be able to do a S#&$ ton of aoe damage, reduce the map by half health, remove all enemy armor and have the ability to gain energy back by attacking.
Throw on a Redeemer and you can do all of this at range.
With augments she can also self heal, isn't squishy and she can briefly draw fire away from herself and her allies with Molt allowing you to stagger with Miasma.

Yes this is all cool, but it is also slightly overpowered. If she has all of this she will practically be required for a lot of late game content because now your team doesn't need CP. That means more damage from rifle amp is on the menu.
She is fine the way she is. She doesn't need this buff because that buff might just warrant a nerf somewhere else. I don't know about you guys but I am happy where she is right now.

Now I understand that you are upset because you feel like there was some promise made on the dev stream that you feel like wasn't delivered to you.
Cool, I bet that was the first time this has ever happened.
#Umbraexcal

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

3 minutes ago, Suira said:

You know what, Eureka you are absolutely right. DE, please buff Saryn. I want to pull bigger DPS numbers. I am not satisfied with just being top DPS all of the time, I want to rub peoples faces in it.

Now Eureka, I have read some cool and interesting ideas on how to make Saryn "better". The issue is, most everyone feels like she does not need a buff. She is functioning just fine as is right now. If she were to get buffed to the point where she could replace CP then that would be an issue.
One Warframe should not be able to do a S#&$ ton of aoe damage, reduce the map by half health, remove all enemy armor and have the ability to gain energy back by attacking.
Throw on a Redeemer and you can do all of this at range.
With augments she can also self heal, isn't squishy and she can briefly draw fire away from herself and her allies with Molt allowing you to stagger with Miasma.

Yes this is all cool, but it is also slightly overpowered. If she has all of this she will practically be required for a lot of late game content because now your team doesn't need CP. That means more damage from rifle amp is on the menu.
She is fine the way she is. She doesn't need this buff because that buff might just warrant a nerf somewhere else. I don't know about you guys but I am happy where she is right now.

Now I understand that you are upset because you feel like there was some promise made on the dev stream that you feel like wasn't delivered to you.
Cool, I bet that was the first time this has ever happened.
#Umbraexcal

Now thats better.

Although once again the provlem is that sayrn is only reaching top dps by exploiting the spore refresh rate.

What I propose will make sayrn into a debuff caster like shes is supposed to be, while still keeping the spirit of the frame.

Make Miasma a armor melting cast, that melts armor dractically like avalanche and can melt more armor by stacking viral and toxin. No damage just debuff. Increase the range to conpensate for no damage.

But of course this would make spore builds really op, so reinstate the refresh rate on spore so that we cant spam 1000 viral procs per second. This way we can debuff both armorless enemies and armored enemies.

This way sayrn players are forced to infect large areas and make pockets where enemies are extremely weak.

You can even make miasma work like WOF where your spore and molt act as an accelerant.

Or you can even use misama to spawn giant nodes that spew massive amounts of corrosive procs and melt armor.

This way sayrn can actually be a debuff caster.

[ComfyOlivia]

If any of you have noticed me around the forums, I'm sure you'd remember me for making a lot of walls of text, but you folks have done that already, to an effect that I feel my making one would be unnecessary. In the end, I feel as though both Excal and Saryn are endgame viable for different reasons. Think of what it would be like to have both in a late-game party; Saryn with the excellent debuffs and excal with the ridiculous burst damage. Either way, I'm going to pull my usual and take the middle ground, however I do need to preface this with the fact that Saryn is currently my favorite frame. I feel as though her kit works well with itself and with a team, as really every frame should. In extension, I got bored with Excal and Exalted in the first couple of hours of the rework existing. To me, it's more about which is more fun to play.

So, I feel as though Eureka makes some good points about Miasma. Honestly, I wish I was using it more, and the only reason I don't has nothing to do with damage, but with utility. Not every Ulti in the game should compete for the most damage. I'm not entirely sure what should be done with it, but a straight upgrade to damage isn't the answer. She isn't a burst damage frame. She is an AOE damage/debuffer. I know that's different from the original design, but we have plenty of Burst damage frames. The only frames I can say that are similar to Saryn are Banshee and Nova (in terms of AOE DPS/Debuff), neither of which have abilities that work with and support the others. Some call this unity dependency and I call it what we've needed to make this game more active instead of weird and sometimes unfair enemy mechanics like spitting tar everywhere. Either way, she is still an excellent frame and the rework has seriously made her shine despite heightening her skill curve.

Tnccs, you make excellent points as well. She does a lot for a team. However, there is still room for improvement. There are things that could be balanced for the better. She definitely doesn't need to do what that Excal was doing in the video. She does, however, often depend on Trinity and sometimes various weapons to further her effectiveness. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, though. Like I said before, some people call this dependency, but in reality, it's more reason to coordinate and work with your fellow players. 

 

Now, as far as the video goes, that is a terrible representation of things. Bring a Saryn and an Excal to a Survival or an Excavation. Bring a Trinity and whatever else. Let the Saryn and Excal go crazy. If both do their best, you will more often then not see a weird split. Excal with have more damage while Saryn will have more kills. Why? Because Saryn is AOE and Excal is not. All the Saryn need to do is keep spores going. Her focus shouldn't be on individual enemies. An Excal in a cohesive team, however, should be going after high priority targets that would give those doing less single-target damage a hard time. As some in this thread have said, Saryn needs large groups of Enemies to be effective. In fact, having your damage too high can actually cause problems for Saryn. Like we've deduced, Spores need to last a while in the enemy so that it can spread. Yes, if it kills an enemy, it will proc to nearby enemies. However, what happens when the flow of enemies in one direction starts to slow? Less enemies to proc off of. With less enemies to proc, and with then dying so quickly, the spread will stop much more quickly than if enemies were given more time to get close. Now, this isn't exaclty an issue late game because even with Max damage, you're going to be hard-pressed to kill anything that quick with anything other than Excal or some other single-target burst damage frame. However, if we started making the enemies weaker and Saryn stronger, the Time to Kill will be shorter and shorter, which is actually not exactly positive for a Spore Saryn. So, what did the guy in the video do wrong? Well, he assumed that when people said "damage" they meant "burst damage". Saryn depends on having multiple enemies. He should have tested it with a full group of 20 Drahk Masters and then a single heavy gunner, and then done the same with Excal to see how they both fared against a single target and then a group. Additionally, any AOE Damage Saryn that isn't actively moving and spreading the spores isn't doing it correctly. While she isn't tanky in her pure damage build, that isn't a worry if you're moving or even including the Molt augment that recovers health in ticks. Sorry, but the video is a poor representation of Saryn's capabilities. Put the Excal up to the task of debuffing and damaging a group of 200 enemies and we'll see what happens.

[Suira]

1 hour ago, Eureka.seveN said:

Now thats better.

Although once again the provlem is that sayrn is only reaching top dps by exploiting the spore refresh rate.

What I propose will make sayrn into a debuff caster like shes is supposed to be, while still keeping the spirit of the frame.

Make Miasma a armor melting cast, that melts armor dractically like avalanche and can melt more armor by stacking viral and toxin. No damage just debuff. Increase the range to conpensate for no damage.

But of course this would make spore builds really op, so reinstate the refresh rate on spore so that we cant spam 1000 viral procs per second. This way we can debuff both armorless enemies and armored enemies.

This way sayrn players are forced to infect large areas and make pockets where enemies are extremely weak.

You can even make miasma work like WOF where your spore and molt act as an accelerant.

Or you can even use misama to spawn giant nodes that spew massive amounts of corrosive procs and melt armor.

This way sayrn can actually be a debuff caster.

There's the issue.
Why does Miasma have to remove armor? 4 CP (what everyone runs anyways) already does this.
Now maybe the idea of having an are affected with Miasma is cool, but I am against the WOF idea. Saryn does not need a toggle ability that prevents her from gaining energy.
There's also the issue that people can't do a spore build anymore due to the nerf that this buff will bring. That is a unique play style right now, why would they ruin it?

So lets assume that Saryn does get this buff and she makes to to where you don't need 4 CP.
People already have a - polarity and would have to change their build to bring the next best aura, Rifle Amp. People would have to not use their shotguns in this instance, so it hinders people on what they can play with.

I think things are fine the way they are. X4 CP and viral everywhere= the debuffs you want.
 

Nothing needs to be changed. Saryn is fine where she is.

[ThatOddDeer]

Let me clear up some commonly unknown bugs/design oversights. with saryn's kit since I haven't seen anyone discuss them.

1. Spore does not properly accumulate all the toxin procs on a target like it is supposed to do. This is why gas lanka can spread large amounts of toxin procs but using toxic lash or ignis or torid don't because those inflict multiple smaller toxin procs.

2. Molt's aggro range does not scale with range unlike decoy.

3. Miasma's CC does not scale with duration and lasts a hard 3 seconds.

 

Otherwise most of the discussion about Saryn's miasma needing work, and adding % max armor shred per tick augmented by viral + toxin procs makes a lot of sense as does changing toxic lash's defense bonus type and possibly making regen molt innate and changing the augment because her rework was balanced around her having the augment 100% of the time anyways.  

Hopefully the confirmed revisit that was given to us in devstream 61 will fix her current issues.

[Rambit23Z]

2 hours ago, Suira said:

There's the issue.
Why does Miasma have to remove armor? 4 CP (what everyone runs anyways) already does this.
Now maybe the idea of having an are affected with Miasma is cool, but I am against the WOF idea. Saryn does not need a toggle ability that prevents her from gaining energy.
There's also the issue that people can't do a spore build anymore due to the nerf that this buff will bring. That is a unique play style right now, why would they ruin it?

So lets assume that Saryn does get this buff and she makes to to where you don't need 4 CP.
People already have a - polarity and would have to change their build to bring the next best aura, Rifle Amp. People would have to not use their shotguns in this instance, so it hinders people on what they can play with.

I think things are fine the way they are. X4 CP and viral everywhere= the debuffs you want.
 

Nothing needs to be changed. Saryn is fine where she is.

Bear in mind, not everyone plays with full teams for 4x CP. Having some (but not too much) armour shred would really help solo-players like myself. Amount shredded depending on number of spores on the target is what I'd like to see.

[(PSN)Crimson_Judgment]

These Threads Spread Faster than Her spores do and they're 5X more Toxic

Buff Saryn to Forum level of Toxicity and She'll Melt Level 1000 Sentients In a fraction of a second

[(PSN)xX-GunHound-Xx]

I sense that a locking is amidst us...better comment before this thread reaches the inevitable.

Saryn has the capabilities to be a valuable asset to any team. Her debuffing skills are among one of the best, especially in the first 3 abilities in her kit are beautifully synergized...except in the case of her ult. She still has issues in that regard and DE has even mentioned it themselves that she still needs some tweaks, not another full on rework or even a buff, but a few tweaks to fully reach said capabilities. She is no longer defined by her ult, but compared to the rest of her kit, it definitely doesn't feel ultimate. A crowd favorite is to make it so that way her ult can proc multiple corrosive ticks to fully dissolve an ad of its incredibly high armor. A few frames already do this, and in any case, they do it better than she does so why can't she, also giving her viral and toxin procs something to actually eat through instead of a large gated armor health rating.

EDIT: A few frames do already strip armor, bolded sentence is based on that

Edited April 4, 2016 by (PS4)xX-GunHound-Xx
misquoted

[Rambit23Z]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)xX-GunHound-Xx said:

A crowd favorite is to make it so that way her ult can proc multiple corrosive ticks to fully dissolve an ad of its incredibly high armor. This will give her something that that no other frame can do

Frost, Ash and Banshee can already completely strip armour. Just thought I'd let you know.

[(PSN)xX-GunHound-Xx]

1 hour ago, Rambit23Z said:

Frost, Ash and Banshee can already completely strip armour. Just thought I'd let you know.

That is true...then let me reword myself...

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

20 hours ago, Suira said:

How Does Spore work?

To quote the wiki:
Saryn infects a target within 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 meters with 2 / 2 / 3 / 3 virulent spores. Each spore inflicts 4 / 10 / 14 / 20  Viral damage per second over a duration of 6 / 8 / 10 / 12 seconds. If a spore is popped, 25  Viral damage with a 100% status chance is dealt within 8 / 10 / 12 / 16 meters, and 2 / 2 / 3 / 3 spores are transmitted to each affected enemy.

If an infected enemy is being damaged by a  Toxin proc, popping a spore on that enemy will also spread Toxin damage to surrounding enemies. The spore will have 25% of the initial base damage that triggered the Toxin proc added to its burst damage as  Viral damage with a 100% status chance for  Viral and  Toxineffects.

You will get more damage out of Saryn by spreading a lot of Toxic procs onto enemies and popping their bubbles to inflict the viral status proc.
The best way to do this is by using concealed explosives on a status build Hikou Prime geared towards gas. When the gas procs every enemy will get a toxic proc. The math break down to this:

Number of enemies= X
Status chance of Hikou Prime= 67.4% = Y
Concealed Explosives chance= 80% = Z
Fire Rate of Hikou Prime= 9.33 = W

In one second you get:
Y x W= 6.28842
Z x W= 7.464
Now we are going to use the lowest number and round down for the most realistic number to find or spread, which is 6.
Spread= 6

Each Concealed Explosive proc pops 9 spores per target so we are going to times by 9.
6 x 9= 54
Now we factor in the amount of enemies affected by this, which is 10 for this example.
X x 54= 540

Each tick of toxic dot generally ticks for 5 and lasts for 10 seconds with Saryns passive.
So 540 x 5 x 10= 27,000

So you can do 27,000 damage in 1 second on a mob of 10 without factoring in damage for the Hikou Prime or the damage from spore. BTW, every enemy within 40 meters takes this damage.
So what happens when you attack these enemies for 10 seconds (the point where toxic procs fall off)?
27,000 x 10= 270,000

Now factor in the fact that you inflict a viral proc cutting the enemies health in HALF!

Now you can use other weapons other than the Hikou Prime, I just used it for this example.
Also, it is possible to pop every spore and then get no effect from them what so ever.
So I suggest you don't shoot one group of enemies for to long.

 

 

 

So yeah, anyone who says Saryn doesn't do good dps is an idiot.
Also, Brozime's build is all kinds of wrong. It is so wrong it's not even funny. He should take that video down because he is misleading people.

Another option would be to just go melee... 

 

Lash on a lets say nikana prime sets guaranteed poison for the additional poison damage lash provides while the nikana has a independent status chance for lets say also gas. Providing gas with status mods brings your status chance to 40% and a kinda strength focused build brinds the poison base to ~65-75% of your weapons damage. 

Now, lets say you hit for 90k (no unrealistic number even on strongly scaled enemys), this would add additional dot damage for ~35% per hit and additional ~40% evry second hit. (Kinda balanced as elemental mods contribute to lash while they don't do on the status), roughly translates to 100k on 2 hits dot damage.

Can be played offhand with a hikou equipped...

Same thing, higher base... 100k x9...  this is no max range build tho. Max range, switching intensify with overextendet would keep the lash procc at ~30->15%

2 hits would add 30+45% of 90k to the base...what's still frickin supperior to what excal is ever able to do. Roughly translates to 70k x9 spread 4x9 times, 640k spread 36 times, x9 for each further shot with your hikou from this point on, plus what the hikou does by itself while you're ideally cloaked with naramon, with around 100% of the dot damage addet as raw damage on destruction once.

One could even switch his weapon of choice depending on the extend the enemys scale in the length of the game... starting from raw spore damage on molt to attacking enemys with hikou to using melee to using the additional destruction damage with miasama...  

 

This vid is as missleading as it can possibly get.

 

 

Edited April 4, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[ThatOddDeer]

2 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Another option would be to just go melee... 

 

Lash on a lets say nikana prime sets guaranteed poison for the additional poison damage lash provides while the nikana has a independent status chance for lets say also gas. Providing gas with status mods brings your status chance to 40% and a kinda strength focused build brinds the poison base to ~65-75% of your weapons damage. 

Now, lets say you hit for 90k (no unrealistic number even on strongly scaled enemys), this would add additional dot damage for ~35% per hit and additional ~40% evry second hit. (Kinda balanced as elemental mods contribute to lash while they don't do on the status), roughly translates to 100k on 2 hits dot damage.

Can be played offhand with a hikou equipped...

Same thing, higher base... 100k x9...  this is no max range build tho. Max range, switching intensify with overextendet would keep the lash procc at ~30->15%

2 hits would add 30+45% of 90k to the base...what's still frickin supperior to what excal is ever able to do. Roughly translates to 70k x9 spread 4x9 times, 640k spread 36 times, x9 for each further shot with your hikou from this point on, plus what the hikou does by itself while you're ideally cloaked with naramon, with around 100% of the dot damage addet as raw damage on destruction once.

One could even switch his weapon of choice depending on the extend the enemys scale in the length of the game... starting from raw spore damage on molt to attacking enemys with hikou to using melee to using the additional destruction damage with miasama...  

 

This vid is as missleading as it can possibly get.

 

 

That would be cool if ya know, spores actually spread toxin procs properly and armor didn't reduce that toxin dot to 10-30~ damage. I'd like to see a nikana prime hit for 90k on a level 135 heavy gunner without corrosive.

 

[RealPandemonium]

6 hours ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Let me clear up some commonly unknown bugs/design oversights. with saryn's kit since I haven't seen anyone discuss them.

1. Spore does not properly accumulate all the toxin procs on a target like it is supposed to do. This is why gas lanka can spread large amounts of toxin procs but using toxic lash or ignis or torid don't because those inflict multiple smaller toxin procs.

2. Molt's aggro range does not scale with range unlike decoy.

3. Miasma's CC does not scale with duration and lasts a hard 3 seconds.

1. Just confirmed that Spore definitely accumulates numerous DoTs for its spread damage.  I spawned a bunch of level 130 Bailiffs and shot a bunch of Acrid into one, stacking numerous DoTs of 3s, 1s, and 5s.  When I spread his spores, his buddies were taking 94 damage per tick.  I haven't done any more delicate tests to see if the math is exactly right yet.  

2.  The aggro range doesn't scale with mods, and it doesn't transfer current aggro to it.  If Molt transfered Saryn's current aggro to it on cast, then it would even be useful in its current state where it dies quickly.  As it is now, it dies quickly without even shaking enemies off of you.

3.  Miasma's CC is a stagger that's identical in function to Accelerant.  Stagger length is tied to the enemy's animation set.  Humanoids are staggered for ~4 seconds, most Infested for ~3 seconds, Chargers (sometimes bug and slide, retaining momentum while stunned) and MOAs for ~2 seconds.  Ospreys and Drones are unaffected.  

 

There is a fourth issue that I don't see mentioned often, which is that killing blows that inflict Toxin procs (such as big melee hits with Toxic Lash on) will just kill the target without spreading their DoT on its spores, sometimes making it impractical to use big damage sources to spread big Toxin procs.  

[ThatOddDeer]

6 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

-snip-

There is a fourth issue that I don't see mentioned often, which is that killing blows that inflict Toxin procs (such as big melee hits with Toxic Lash on) will just kill the target without spreading their DoT on its spores, sometimes making it impractical to use big damage sources to spread big Toxin procs.  

As I play saryn almost exclusively with melee that would explain me seeing toxin procs not accumulating on spores. Kind of because of the sheer overkill I produce until well over level 250

Edited April 5, 2016 by ThatOddDeer