Saryn's DPS

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

1 minute ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Just curious, where in the quoted post does he mention his arcanes?

not the quoted post, your video.

S#&$ i messed up re editing. sec :P

 

[ThatOddDeer]

11 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

not the quoted post, your video.

S#&$ i messed up re editing. sec :P

 

Those are arcane strike and arcane fury, which is currently bugged atm and not giving the full 40% bonus like back when nikana stance combos didn't apply mods

But back to saryn.

How would you stat up a miasma that shreds armor, as is thematically appropraite

Edited April 5, 2016 by ThatOddDeer

[Xekrin]

46 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

I never saw any large ticks ...

This is what bothers me most.  I know there is math to prove this and that, but seeing numbers like 1's up to 15's at most just makes the entire kit (and toxin in general) just look very weak.  Not to mention it requires very specific weapons, very specific damage and a great deal of effort to achieve what other frames can do much faster with any weapon / damage.  

Other than Ember who greatly enhances fire damage with Accellerant there are no other frames or abilities (or entire kits) that pretty much demand a single specific damage type to be as effective as possible.

I don't dispute that Saryn can do some serious damage and kill hordes of enemies.  I've used Saryn in sorties and come out with highest kills often (as long as mag isn't there!) but it is very limiting in what your arsenal can be.  Or at least that seems to be the general consensus, its either 'use torid', 'use ignis', 'use concealed explosives'.

I guess is boils down to 'use status builds on primary/secondary and use crit on melee.  Not only are you very dependent upon certain weapons but weapons with specific builds, meanwhile other frames perform much faster with a variety of builds, whatever damage types the faction requires (or whatever you choose) and can depend on either weapons 'or' abilities without a hard-pressed 1,2,3 rotation of 'cast spores, use weapon A to spread Damage X and weapon B to spread Damage Y before doing Ability F or whatever.

That's what is boils down to for me.  Anytime I use Saryn, I 'feel' forced to equip gas only combo damage with aoe status weapons and rely on that to do my damage.  And all this is dependent on large groups of enemies that aren't being completely warded by ancient healers or nullifiers that render my kit more useless than other frames in similar situations.

 

Sidenote Edit : Using Toxin proc weapons in general like Acrid, a weapon I really like and was the first secondary I potatoed (a big deal for me since I don't buy potatoes with plat), make me weep a little at how weak and awful their unique mechanics are due to how atrocious toxin damage is.  Even again corpus.  I think an overhaul of how toxin works reducing that 9 seconds to 5 seconds and adjusting the damage therein would greatly benefit many weapons such as this and make Saryn better too.  Just an opinion of course, no maths to prove otherwise.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Xekrin
sidenote edit

[ThatOddDeer]

3 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

This is what bothers me most.  I know there is math to prove this and that, but seeing numbers like 1's up to 15's at most just makes the entire kit (and toxin in general) just look very weak.  Not to mention it requires very specific weapons, very specific damage and a great deal of effort to achieve what other frames can do much faster with any weapon / damage.  

Other than Ember who greatly enhances fire damage with Accellerant there are no other frames or abilities (or entire kits) that pretty much demand a single specific damage type to be as effective as possible.

I don't dispute that Saryn can do some serious damage and kill hordes of enemies.  I've used Saryn in sorties and come out with highest kills often (as long as mag isn't there!) but it is very limiting in what your arsenal can be.  Or at least that seems to be the general consensus, its either 'use torid', 'use ignis', 'use concealed explosives'.

I guess is boils down to 'use status builds on primary/secondary and use crit on melee.  Not only are you very dependent upon certain weapons but weapons with specific builds, meanwhile other frames perform much faster with a variety of builds, whatever damage types the faction requires (or whatever you choose) and can depend on either weapons 'or' abilities without a hard-pressed 1,2,3 rotation of 'cast spores, use weapon A to spread Damage X and weapon B to spread Damage Y before doing Ability F or whatever.

That's what is boils down to for me.  Anytime I use Saryn, I 'feel' forced to equip gas only combo damage with aoe status weapons and rely on that to do my damage.  And all this is dependent on large groups of enemies that aren't being completely warded by ancient healers or nullifiers that render my kit more useless than other frames in similar situations.

You managed to put all the problems, that don't involve numbers, I have as a saryn main into one post. Like I'll be damned to make saryn work despite all her flaws but it just feels so bad compared to a frame like trinity, frost, rhino, loki, mirage or nyx where I can take any weapon and pretty much any build and use pretty much any ability on all these kits and feel great about it. Saryn is locked into 1 rigid mold to do work in a way she wasn't even intended do, like rapidly proccing spores rather than charging them up with toxin procs and that doesn't even work right according to saryns kit. 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

1 hour ago, ThatOddDeer said:

 

Last video for now. Gas and gas was the weakest combination, the whole saryn gimick of bouncing spores around didn't do anything(and almost ate all of my fps from all the procs). It was the melee red crits that eventually helped take down the enemies. Gas + corrosive was similar. Only melee was carrying because of corrosive, I never saw any large ticks but the direct hits from the melee killed them very quick. Corrosive + corrosive killed things quickest because corrosive shredded all their damage reducing armor away and then I was left with viral spores and toxin procs doing okay damage as I slaughtered them with corrosive red crits.

It did nothing? You noticed that they all died simultaneous on gas+gas right?

And now another thing that isn't clarified: it's eather big dots or a high quantity of small dots that are spread with each bounce. The percentage stays the same, the visibility just vanishs, also explains the fps dropps as thers a lotta data to process. Zephyrs tornado has a similar thing going, you only see evry fourth tick. 

Works as intendet, just needs a little more melee and probably less jumping. The fights took you about the same time it did in your previous vid, even tho you wasted time jumping and didn't rly bother with the intensive combo gain...there should be a big difference right?  

I mean, no stance multipliers, less combo multiplier, less red crits that appearently run this whole thing for you. If you're still not convinced, welp, i won't continue. Thx tho :) valid reference that it works.

Edited April 6, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[RealPandemonium]

Just FYI, btw: The damage instances caused by spores popping are not shown for some reason.  Depending on your build, a lot of the damage your inflicting might not be so obvious.  

[(XBOX)karuptedstar]

I don't see the low damage I see other people are getting with Saryn. My Saryn has insane dps cause its melee/armor/power strength build that even let's me take dual zoren into sorties. Just use spores then contagion for the 30% bonus melee damage as toxic damage and spreads spores. 

Also the aegis and silva Aug mod that got proposed breaks this build

Edited April 6, 2016 by (XB1)karuptedninja

[ThatOddDeer]

2 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Just FYI, btw: The damage instances caused by spores popping are not shown for some reason.  Depending on your build, a lot of the damage your inflicting might not be so obvious.  

The thing is, if the damage I were inflicting were meaningful in any sense then it would show in the DoTs from the toxin procs and spore ticks. However that is not the case and I run with more than 100% power strength so that isn't part of the problem. Even when wailing on multiple enemies and inflicting the largest possible toxin procs I can possibly achieve the spore ticks and toxin procs from spore just don't show for it.

 

Even when i tested later on corpus modulars, the highest tick from spore or toxin I achieved was 1687 after reaching a 2.5x mutliplier and getting a 100k~ charge attack headshot. My highest slash proc tick was well over 4k and those have the benefit of ignoring armor if that had been a factor.

Edited April 6, 2016 by ThatOddDeer

[RealPandemonium]

Just now, ThatOddDeer said:

The thing is, if the damage I were inflicting were meaningful in any sense then it would show in the DoTs from the toxin procs and spore ticks. However that is not the case and I run with more than 100% power strength so that isn't part of the problem. Even when wailing on multiple enemies and inflicting the largest possible toxin procs I can possibly achieve the spore ticks and toxin procs from spore just don't show for it.

My post was irrespective of your videos; it just occurred to me that this wasn't mentioned in the thread yet AFAIK.

 

Testing damage on level 135 c. heavy gunners with no armor bandaid only shows how broken armor scaling is rather than demonstrating the viability of a given option.  The whole thing is rather silly.  If something DOES kill them with no armor bandaid, then it shows that your base damage is excessive; nothing more.  

[ThatOddDeer]

Just now, RealPandemonium said:

My post was irrespective of your videos; it just occurred to me that this wasn't mentioned in the thread yet AFAIK.

 

Testing damage on level 135 c. heavy gunners with no armor bandaid only shows how broken armor scaling is rather than demonstrating the viability of a given option.  The whole thing is rather silly.  If something DOES kill them with no armor bandaid, then it shows that your base damage is excessive; nothing more.  

I responded to the armor scaling by stating my results against tanky but non-armored units, the highest of all results being 1687. My slash procs were doing more than double that amount and would have done similarly against armored units. The slash procs were my band-aid

[RealPandemonium]

8 hours ago, ThatOddDeer said:

• Only one spore on the infected enemy can transfer Toxin damage until that enemy becomes damaged by a new  Toxin proc

It's this line. The way toxic lash and spore interact is causing a lot of confusion. You inflict the toxin proc and spread a spore in the same instance, the same swing.

This causes every target to get an enhanced spore that can't spread toxin. If you apply another toxin proc with toxic lash, whether to the first enemy or an enemy with the exhausted but enhanced spore you still only spread 1 proc per spore and all the nearby enemies still only have 1 spreadable toxin proc. Instead of spreading a whole bunch of procs you can only ever have 1 toxin proc bouncing around with a bunch of exhausted but enhanced spores. Molt gets around this by being a forced toxin proc AoE but that's super energy intenstive

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "enhanced spores."  Toxin procs spread via the burst damage instance of the spore being popped; they have nothing to do with the spores that are created on enemies by the pop.

[(XBOX)Dr Desflurane]

Joey Zero does an excellent job of showcasing how to properly use spore to deal massive amounts of damage to large groups.  I have tested this build and it is awesome, I have yet to do an interception or defense with this build where I was not >50% of total damage dealt.

Spore Saryn - An alternate method of play (Tenno Tactics)

[ThatOddDeer]

11 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "enhanced spores."  Toxin procs spread via the burst damage instance of the spore being popped; they have nothing to do with the spores that are created on enemies by the pop.

I'll explain with an example I used earlier. 4 enemies labeled A-D. You cast spore on A and then hit it with toxic lash, the other 3 enemies have 3 spores that have 12.5% of the toxic lash bonus damage as a toxin proc and took 25% of the toxin proc's tick from toxic lash as bonus viral damage. Unless you hit enemy B, C or D the toxin proc on those enemies is "used up" and can't be spread any more. If you keep hitting target A you can't apply anymore toxin procs to the other afflicted targets as they already have 3 spores. If You do switch targets you'll pop 1 spore and then target A will have 3 spores again and 1+ the diminished amount from the inert toxin proc applied to it( the proc has diminished by at least 1 tick usually by the time to strike the nearby target unless they're in a clump). This series is repeated when over and over causes toxic lash and spore to scale linearly and very slowly and goodness you need a lot of toxin procs for it to even be relevant in the first place. 

[ThatOddDeer]

14 hours ago, (XB1)karuptedninja said:

I don't see the low damage I see other people are getting with Saryn. My Saryn has insane dps cause its melee/armor/power strength build that even let's me take dual zoren into sorties. Just use spores then contagion for the 30% bonus melee damage as toxic damage and spreads spores. 

Also the aegis and silva Aug mod that got proposed breaks this build

That's just dual zoren being an amazing weapon. Toxic lash and spoore, being powers, can't  crit. Also if you've read how the wiki works or any of my explanations of spore+ toxic lash you'd realize that saryn herself is not supply much of anything and its much more likely to be your slash procs or crits from the weapons themselves

As to the silva and aegis mod, it'll probably be lackluster like almost all the weapon augments and won't fix that terrible weapon. 

[ThatOddDeer]

11 minutes ago, (XB1)Dr Desflurane said:

Joey Zero does an excellent job of showcasing how to properly use spore to deal massive amounts of damage to large groups.  I have tested this build and it is awesome, I have yet to do an interception or defense with this build where I was not >50% of total damage dealt.

Spore Saryn - An alternate method of play (Tenno Tactics)

He didn't test against heavy units, which is what endgame is about, and tested against some of the squishy units the void can offer.

Also he shows what is one of the many things currently wrong with saryn. Instead of it being optimal to stack poison on spored targets and increasing the DoTs, it's better to rely on the base damage of the ability and use it's incredibly low refresh rate + concealed explosives to rapidly spread weak DoTs than ever use saryn's kit the way it was designed. This is due to all the weird ability interactions that works against saryn's kit for some odd reason.

[(XBOX)Dr Desflurane]

9 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

He didn't test against heavy units, which is what endgame is about, and tested against some of the squishy units the void can offer.

Also he shows what is one of the many things currently wrong with saryn. Instead of it being optimal to stack poison on spored targets and increasing the DoTs, it's better to rely on the base damage of the ability and use it's incredibly low refresh rate + concealed explosives to rapidly spread weak DoTs than ever use saryn's kit the way it was designed. This is due to all the weird ability interactions that works against saryn's kit for some odd reason.

True, i have run this Grineer sorties and had similar results though.  I will run the build in the Simulacrum with only level 100 heavy gunners and bombards to see how it performs.

[ThatOddDeer]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Dr Desflurane said:

True, i have run this Grineer sorties and had similar results though.  I will run the build in the Simulacrum with only level 100 heavy gunners and bombards to see how it performs.

It doesn't perform very well sadly. You'll go through absolutely ridiculous amounts of clips and it gets worse for every level you add upwards. Honestly I would put saryn as a slightly tankier ember (only when primed + regenerative mole) whose own kit anti-synergies in the way you'd think it would work and you're better off not playing to her gimmicks than buying into it. Yet, I still play her almost exclusively because I'm determined to make my favorite frame work despite all these huge flaws.

[Gurpgork]

15 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

It doesn't perform very well sadly. You'll go through absolutely ridiculous amounts of clips and it gets worse for every level you add upwards. Honestly I would put saryn as a slightly tankier ember (only when primed + regenerative mole) whose own kit anti-synergies in the way you'd think it would work and you're better off not playing to her gimmicks than buying into it. Yet, I still play her almost exclusively because I'm determined to make my favorite frame work despite all these huge flaws.

So what I've been getting from this whole ongoing discussion is that Saryn isn't necessarily underperforming because of bad design, but more because she's not exactly working as intended?

[ThatOddDeer]

Just now, Gurpgork said:

So what I've been getting from this whole ongoing discussion is that Saryn isn't necessarily underperforming because of bad design, but more because she's not exactly working as intended?

Exactly. That and some weird design choices. Like the devs saying she was balanced around always having regen molt equiped, the corrosive blast wave not shredding armor or applying corrosive procs yet avalanche does AND provides CC that scales with mods. That and how spore is programmed in relation to toxin procs. It's all one huge fustercluck of hidden information that leads people to believe that saryn is better than she is right now. That's why us hardcore saryn mains are waiting on our confirmed re-visit to the rework we were teased in devstream 61 because we hope it'l polish up her rework to frost/excal/rhino levels of polish.

[Gurpgork]

1 hour ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Exactly. That and some weird design choices. Like the devs saying she was balanced around always having regen molt equiped, the corrosive blast wave not shredding armor or applying corrosive procs yet avalanche does AND provides CC that scales with mods. That and how spore is programmed in relation to toxin procs. It's all one huge fustercluck of hidden information that leads people to believe that saryn is better than she is right now. That's why us hardcore saryn mains are waiting on our confirmed re-visit to the rework we were teased in devstream 61 because we hope it'l polish up her rework to frost/excal/rhino levels of polish.

Well for one thing, Frost would be a little too strong even if Avalanche didn't shred armor. I don't think the bar should be set at his level, because that bar is a little too high.

I have to say, it's kind of strange to play a bunch of sortie missions and consistently get 60-80% of the damage and kills, even with powerhouses such as Excalibur on the map, and then get on the forums and see someone say, "she's not as good as you think she is." If I've had this much success with Saryn when she's not working, I'm almost afraid of how well she'd do if she was working.

Almost.

[ThatOddDeer]

1 minute ago, Gurpgork said:

Well for one thing, Frost would be a little too strong even if Avalanche didn't shred armor. I don't think the bar should be set at his level, because that bar is a little too high.

I have to say, it's kind of strange to play a bunch of sortie missions and consistently get 60-80% of the damage and kills, even with powerhouses such as Excalibur on the map, and then get on the forums and see someone say, "she's not as good as you think she is." If I've had this much success with Saryn when she's not working, I'm almost afraid of how well she'd do if she was working.

Almost.

i'd rather buff a frame to the high level of frost rather than take away the fun frosts players currently enjoy. Also you go into a meat grinder the excal will always kill the meaningful targets quicker than spore saryn regardless of EB because he can provide things other than raw damage which means he scales even when his damage does not. Killing weak infested and corpus units and getting that high total damage done number feels good but it doesn't show you that you're barely denting the units that actually pose a threat. It's like using vauban or nyx to CC a huge area except the CC only affects the trash mobs and the big mobs get through and slaughter you.

Now, onto if she was working properly, her damage against trash mobs wouldn't escalate but eventually the scaling of toxin procs and higher damaging spore ticks could take down a heavy unit in a way they can't currently because of weird programming on spore. That's only whats wrong with spore. Molt, toxic lash and miasma are cans of worms that all have plenty of suggested changes in a multitude of threads. Making regen molt innate, or adding a short stealth to drop aggro for saryn, making the range scale with power range, making it stay at 1 hp or at least 2-4 seconds to synergize with miasma better. Toxic lash's power return could scale with power strength, provide an armor bonus or flat DR like link or eclipse and returning 3 ticks of energy rather than 1 if you kill a target with melee rather than only giving 1 tick so that it feels better to use it optimally and untie it from melee only like Speed or warcry. Make miasma shred armor each tick, inreasing the value of the tick based on spore count or applying a corrosive proc a tick + 1 corrosive proc a tick for each spore, un-tying its CC duration from enemy type and allowing it to scale with power duration.  There are surely more than this.

[Ivan_Rid]

So.. what about the optimal weapon loadout to make best use of her abilities? Lanka and Staticor seem to be the best choice now - no IPS, high base damage, high base proc chance.

Melee without Naramon doesnt seem viable, and with Naramon anything goes.

[Rambit23Z]

8 minutes ago, Ivan_Rid said:

Melee without Naramon doesnt seem viable, and with Naramon anything goes.

It's riskier without Naramon, but viable.

[ThatOddDeer]

1 minute ago, Rambit23Z said:

It's riskier without Naramon, but viable.

Without naramon I'd have to run life strike to keep up with the sheer dps in-between regenerative molt ticks and I wouldn't be able to run my endlessly scaling melee builds and that would hurt saryn's endgame viability even more.

[ThatOddDeer]

11 minutes ago, Ivan_Rid said:

So.. what about the optimal weapon loadout to make best use of her abilities? Lanka and Staticor seem to be the best choice now - no IPS, high base damage, high base proc chance.

Melee without Naramon doesnt seem viable, and with Naramon anything goes.

gas lanka and gas staticor would accomplish 2 things. You'd kill meaningless targets efficiently but slower than concealed explosives due to how spore works when spreading toxin procs, that 1 limit per instance of damage is brutal to gas builds. And two, you'd kill the high priority targets faster with corrosive or radiation lanka or corrosive/radiation staticor. It's just not efficient and the way spore works punishes gas builds/