Cells - This Is Warframes Endgame

[fishworshipper]

I like the idea of an endgame that you have to work and plan for, and rewards proper use of your equipment...

What I don't like is that you don't get the rewards because you didn't spend 7 years Formaing your lvl 16-23 Rhino and don't have a lvl 27 Dethcube at the time of starting the Cell.

That's just @(*()$ stupid. The challenge should be the mission, not arbitrary restrictions required to get the rewards of that mission. If you're going to give us rewards, let us be able to GET THE REWARDS if we went through the mission and EARNED THEM.

[nakatotaiyou]

fishworshipper, on 14 Jun 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

I like the idea of an endgame that you have to work and plan for, and rewards proper use of your equipment...

What I don't like is that you don't get the rewards because you didn't spend 7 years Formaing your lvl 16-23 Rhino and don't have a lvl 27 Dethcube at the time of starting the Cell.

That's just @(*()$ stupid. The challenge should be the mission, not arbitrary restrictions required to get the rewards of that mission. If you're going to give us rewards, let us be able to GET THE REWARDS if we went through the mission and EARNED THEM.

agreed, exactly what i think.

[halofury36]

I would totally love to see something like this!

 

One way I could see this being used is to have the smallest cells be the lore behind the warframes themselves... it could require you to play that warframe even. That way, there is something for 1-2 people to do, without compromising the larger cells (and the challenge/reward) they could bring.

[notionphil]

RE: CELL LEVEL LIMITS

Hi Guys,

There are some very strong opinions about the level limits on Cells. Great! I would like to discuss those in detail but I'd also like to make a few general statements about Cell level limits based on the evolving idea, powered by your feedback. Also I'd like to clarify some misunderstandings due to my un-updated posts.

1) Many if not most Cells would be level 30. Fewer would be 10 and 20. There are many players who have no level 30 equipment (such as every single new account)...why make Cells inaccessible to them?

2) Cell level limits won't be hyper specific - Probably 3 level limits. 10, 20, 30.

3) Cells don't have a minimum level. If its a level 10 Cell, you just have to be geared 10 or under.

4) Cell level limits are the same for ALL gear and frame - not Lv 10 frame LV 15 primary LV 20 melee etc.

5) You can run any Cell (that you start) with any level gear, and get boss drops, XP etc. You just won't get the Specific Reward if you are over geared.

Ok, now to reply to specific comments!

one final feedback

i like the suggestion, longer more challenging missions that give special rewards( id love to see cells like the first skana give a perk to that specific weapon, statwise or visually) and require preparation, something already done in a smaller scale when void missons where introduced. still i see no logic behind the level restrictions. you can simply make the missions challenging for level 30 equipment, not force players to delevel.......
 

Hi Nakato!

I don't have access to the player statistics...but I am willing to bet that 50%+ players have no level 30 gear. Many of them will leave, some because they feel like the game is too grindy and has no story. Cells are a story mechanic and are not grindy - these player might love Cells Quest/Epic style content.

Should 50% of players not be able to experience any Epic/Quest content, just so that you can collect every reward in the game using your preferred loadout? I strongly disagree. If you refuse to ever change your loadout, how will you even get your mastery high enough to get new weapons?

Newbies need Cells too - Imagine being invited to a Guild for the first time and having your mates take you along on a challenging Cell, teaching you lore and gameplay mechanics along the way! Much more exciting than going to Xini for a grindfest...And better yet, they are challenged along with you bc they are using level appropriate gear.

 

I think point 1 is interesting, but anything permanent on the first release is shaky. Considering how DE's had to retroactively reward or fix certain things (think big fusion core patch a while ago, Reaper Prime Handle drop rates, rare Void keys in packs), putting in a permanent system at release could have some serious problems to it. Personally a permanent system would frustrate the hell out of me, I didn't just work to level up my gear only to result in it being low level again. Like I said, I'd like to be able to run high level content when I wish to, and not have to re-do all the leveling just because of one single Cell run.

To point 2, I think it's not necessarily about just exploring more content with the mastery capping. I think it's also about DE wanting to control how many mastery points people can earn. If you could re-earn it with forma, you could have infinite mastery points. Temporary level reduction might kill some content reduction, and it might not. Like I said, if I'm running something that has an impact for failure, I'll be running weapons I'm comfortable with, regardless. I'll buy a second set of Kunai or something, that I'll keep permanently low levelled, rather than "explore" new weaponry.

I can guarantee you, lots of people will not run Cells if they must de-level their gear. Considering it's intended to be an infrequent run of say at most once a day, people will say screw it, and focus on other content where they can play with whatever gear they want.

To put in more constructive discussion, I think we need gear presets more than ever with the suggestion of Cells. Considering the environmental hazards, specific enemies, temp/perma de-levelled gear, it'd be a real pain in the &#! to re-mod absolutely everything for a single run.

Hi Snurton,

Thanks for your thoughtful critique on the matter.

Again, Many if not most cells will be Level 30. You can run those 50%+ of Cells anytime, with your favorite loadout. However, there will still be some Quest/Epic content for the other half (guestimation) of the playerbase who has only been on a few days, or doesn't yet have gear at your level.

My thought is that some of the lower level Cells would probably have gear specific rewards for lower tier gear. Ex: 'The First Skana' might be a Level 10 Easy Cell. A Braton Specifc Cell might be a Level 20 Medium Cell.

Yes, there would be some goodies (such as a few nasty Lv 10 Agent Difficulty Cells) peppered in there that you would want to go back for. You would put that Cell off until you decide to Forma your gear, or new gear comes out that you want to buy. Or, maybe you would actually go build some new gear and check it out (my hope).

I'm not talking about shutting off high level frames from MOST of the game's content or anything, most Cells would be high level. And if you just want content, you can always run any level frame overleveled and still get boss drops and XP. But if you want those low level Cell specific rewards, I see no harm in you planing for them. I realize the level restriction will make certain specific Cells less accessible. It makes them more rare, harder to get to and the rewards more valuable. I don't think thats a bad thing as long as it's not a majority of the content.

I don't think the de-leveling mechanic will be something that will be widely used. Most players will just run Cells within their level range, and since most Cells will be 30, that is fine. De-leveling will be a last-resort option for someone who REALLY wants to run a specific cell and just refuses to use any weapon other than their own. It's basically an option for completionists who don't have plat to ever Forma - not for the average player.

I agree mastery capping is another motive of DE. But - have you never bought/used a new weapon JUST for mastery, even though you love your current build? I do that ALL the time. If you do that, I think it's likely you would consider doing the same for a specific Cell, or series of Cells that you'd really like to run.

 

I like the idea of an endgame that you have to work and plan for, and rewards proper use of your equipment...

What I don't like is that you don't get the rewards because you didn't spend 7 years Formaing your lvl 16-23 Rhino and don't have a lvl 27 Dethcube at the time of starting the Cell.

That's just @(*()$ stupid. The challenge should be the mission, not arbitrary restrictions required to get the rewards of that mission. If you're going to give us rewards, let us be able to GET THE REWARDS if we went through the mission and EARNED THEM.

Hi Fish,

The Cell level ranges are much broader, and more consistent than that :)

You state the challenge should be the mission. I agree! That is why Cells have level restrictions but always give their rewards, the challenge is the Cell, not the RNG.

However, the Challenge cannot be the mission if its filled with level 10 enemies and you have a level 30 loadout. If you are overleveled, you did not overcome any challenge, and you did not earn anything.

Also, you state you don't want to spend 7 years Forma'ing your Rhino. Neither do I, but many players do, and they want to be challenged and rewarded at that endgame level! You won't be completing any Agent LV Cells without Forma'ing your frame for 7 years. You will be hoplessly smashed by elite counter-assassination teams overcome by infested atmosphere and made into swiss cheese by self-defending doors!

Try an Easy or Medium LV 30 Cell :) Thats where you'll find me!

Edited June 14, 2013 by notionphil

[notionphil]

I would totally love to see something like this!

One way I could see this being used is to have the smallest cells be the lore behind the warframes themselves... it could require you to play that warframe even. That way, there is something for 1-2 people to do, without compromising the larger cells (and the challenge/reward) they could bring.

Any Cell that is specifically about a single Frame or Weapons lore/backstory would require you to run it using that gear. Would be interesting to see some of those a solo or duo, I agree.

 

The reward for that type of Cell would generally be a graphical option or gameplay tweak for that specific gear. A Gold skana for the Skana Cell. A new helmet for a frame's Cell (makes a lot more sense than from an alert reward!). Maybe the larger or more Epic Cells would reward full re-skins with stat/dmg type changes.

 

EX: LV 30 Gorgon Origin Cell "Between a Rock and Hard Place" (with twin bosses Scylla and Charybdis, rightly so), reward is a Gorgon skin that switches Gorgon base dmg to Fire and turns the projectiles red - named Cerberus, of course.

 

Would be amazing to see some custom Impasses or Recon Conditions on the lore heavy, or important Cells. Imagine for example, in a LV 30 Origin Story Cell for Nyx; during one of the missions, there is an Impasse room where Nyx is facing an enemy who is impervious to all of his weaponry, and he has to Mind Control the minions into killing the boss.

 

Lotus warns "Be careful Nyx - This Grineer Pirate has survived every assault we've sent at him. The only Tenno who escaped informed us that the pirate's only weakness is the hatred of his own crew. There must be some way to use that against him".

 

Or for a Rhino Origin Story Cell, with relentless packs of powerful infested, but an easy way to kill them is to lure them into an environmental hazard (room on fire etc) and outlast them HP wise with your invulnerability.

 

We can think of tons of these - There are pretty simple ways to highlight the skills of each frame in a custom Impasse, using existing gameplay systems. And as more systems are introduced, that will open up even more creative options for challenging Cells...imagine stealth Cells?! Awesome.

 

*edited to add more info

Edited June 14, 2013 by notionphil

[fishworshipper]

Honestly, I doubt the Forma would save you from such a fate. I think skill would, which would be pretty nice.

I think that, if level caps are implemented, the rewards findable in previous Cells should be findable in higher level Cells.

So, say, for each Cell blueprint there's a % chance of it being for a certain object.

Say on a level 10 Cell there's a 50% chance of it being a Cell for Item A (indicated in the description of the blueprint) and a 50% chance of iit being Item B.

Then, on a level 20 Cell, you have a 5% chance for it being for Item A, a 5% chance for Item B, a 45% chance for it to be Item C, and a 45% chance of it being Item D.

Either that, or have a range of rewards that the player is able to choose from upon completion of a Cell. Lower level Cells would have a smaller range, and higher level Cells would have a larger range as well as the ability to choose things that would be found in lower level Cells.

For example:

Level 10 Cell

Item A

Item B

Item C

Level 20 Cell

Item A

Item B

Item C

Item D

Item E

Item F

Level 30 Cell

Item A

Item B

Item C

Item D

Item E

Item F

Item G

Item H

Item I

And make the difficulty increase the amount of items you get to pick.

So an Agent lvl 10 would let you pick all 3 of the rewards, while an Agent lvl 30 would let you pick any 3 rewards of your choosing.

[Hafilgar]

This is the best team-oriented "endgame" idea I've read. +1

 

I think Ambush and Blitzkreig conditions should be random as in they will add onto whatever current specific Recon or Impasse condition you were dealing with (much like how Lotus occasionally changes the mission from sabotage to extermination etc etc.)

 

So for example if you were to do a low gravity raid mission and while Lotus is debriefing you on the plan before landing on an enemy ship, you suddenly get ambushed. This adds an initial stage to the mission where it becomes "Ship to Ship Combat II" WITH the "Ambush" conditions. So basically you have no ammo for your primary weapon (in this specific situation) and you're running through your own ship taking down invading grineer. While you're on the tenno ship, it should be "extermination" because all enemies should be cleared off the vessel so that it can escape and come back later to extract you from the MAIN mission. Once extermination is complete, you reach a checkpoint/extraction point that allows you to get across a bridge that the enemies latched onto your ship. Now you're on the enemy vessel and you can proceed with the Raid mission.

 

OR you're about to Sabotage an infested ship to set it to self-destruct...BUT a Corpus vessel ambushes you and you have to exterminate them before you can board the infested vessel.

 

I really like the blitzkreig condition too but it should depend on which specific mission you're doing. So if it's Raid, a sneak attack basically means the enemy was expecting you. This should change the mission objective to "Survival" or "Escape" 

If the original mission was defense, then it stays as "Defense" but you have to hold out with health, energy, ammo restores.

For Sabotage, you can opt for an "Escape" and get a lesser reward OR  destroy the reactor core with the handicap and get the full reward (your team can weigh risk vs reward since dying with no revives means disconnecting from the team and failing the entire Cell missions)

Same applies for Assassination missions, kill the boss but with the same handicap for full reward

 

Chances of mission add-ons/changes should be low so as not to cause continuous annoyance for players

 

Also I don't think the Dossiers should be in Alerts. I'd rather have it as drops only depending on  difficulty tiers such as comparing kiliken (tier 1) to xini (tier 3)

If this were to be implemented in-game and DE just HAD to put something into the Alert, please make it only 1 Dossier instead of multiple ones. That way it seems more fair that every other dossier is obtainable through playing the game. The alert dossier bp should be rarer than potatoes/formas and cost a ridiculous amount to build. The cell reward would be like 1 of each blue/gold potato and 1 forma.

[notionphil]

Honestly, I doubt the Forma would save you from such a fate. I think skill would, which would be pretty nice.

I think that, if level caps are implemented, the rewards findable in previous Cells should be findable in higher level Cells.

So, say, for each Cell blueprint there's a % chance of it being for a certain object.

Say on a level 10 Cell there's a 50% chance of it being a Cell for Item A (indicated in the description of the blueprint) and a 50% chance of iit being Item B.

Then, on a level 20 Cell, you have a 5% chance for it being for Item A, a 5% chance for Item B, a 45% chance for it to be Item C, and a 45% chance of it being Item D.

 

 

Hi Fish,

 

Thank you for your insightful suggestions and feedback.

 

I hope a combination of Forma and skill is required to run Agent level cells. But I love that you understand how skill is a critical component of the reward, which is exactly why level limits need to be on Cells.

 

I think Cells are important because they (will add to list as I think more):

 

1) Provide actual challenges across the level spectrum

2) Reward players SKILL, planning and character strength

3) Provide a means to earn rare gear OTHER than by grinding the RNG

4) Encourage players to explore and appreciate more of the game's content (specifically weapons and frames)

5) Give additional depth and lore to the Warframe universe through content

6) Keep players excited about the game by giving them medium-term goals that they have to plan for (ex: you cant run this cell right now bc your gear is too high, but save that Dossier for when you get another frame/gun/forma)

7) Give players a tactical experience that gives them reasons to explore different loadouts and communicate.

8) Provide a meanigful, high-risk high-reward option, something which is not currently in game.

9) Are easy to iterate, once the Cell system is in place - allowing for frequent, low overhead updates

 

I understand your suggestion about the Cell rewards, but these negate or soften the impact of 3,4,6. I feel really strongly that RNG shouldn't affect Cell specific rewards. I do have some ideas about RNG and Cell which could work, namely running a Cell at appropriate level gives you 100% drop rate, and drop is reduced by 5% for every gear level over limit, to a min of 1%. But, you know I don't like that idea :)

 

But, this would be something that DE would have to think about. My goals for Cells are above. Strict level limits fit my goals - DE may feel otherwise. If they incorporated Cells, I'm sure this would be a great discussion to have with them.

 

Thank you for contributing and helping to strengthen the idea.

Edited June 15, 2013 by notionphil

[Sgtghostface]

This seems really cool and id love it to be put in game but i really hope this wouldnt be the only form of end game.

[Asum]

I like the mission ideas, but you brought in way to many personal preferences to cater to your own gameplay needs and what you think you would enjoy currently, which takes away from the grand idea you proposed. 

 

Especially the ideas of down-leveling, or the (already way to important and powerful) use of forma's to make the sheer endless sink for them even deeper shines a very bad light on the whole idea. 

 

There is already more than enough to do in the game to get your gear to Level 30 (actually the whole game is just that).

What we need is content for your maxed and polarized gear, not more stuff for the way there, or even content that locks you into that process of leveling (and de-leveling) your gear to 'enjoy' certain content. 

 

Your proposal could be outstanding elder game content, for the way there, we alrady have everything that the game currently is. 

 

Balancing this elder game content around level 30 gear and coordinated squads would cater the idea a lot better tho, further ramping up the difficulty along the way to either increase the need for coordination, or polarized gear to compensate for the lack of skill (in a set your own difficulty way), while the highest levels of difficulty would rely on both. 

 

That said, i don't really see why the whole thing should be sold as elder game only at all, focusing around de-leveling hardcore players. 

Why not incorporate the general game mode ideas into the whole game, and expand upon it in diffuculty (as higher damaging mobs, harder special conditions) for the elder game, to please people willing to spend time and money into their favourite gear set to forma it up. 

 

I don't see the point of implementing these countless variations of player restrictions you propose into the game to force an artificial lategame upon the players. De-leveling gear permanently to perticipate in certain content, just to grind it up again, just to de-level it for certain content again..? That smells like pretty bad game design to me. 

If you need that kind of tools to make a core system work, then it's not a good core system.

 

A few of the game modes you came up with seem like they could be rather fun to play, but in my opinion it would be better to just implement them into the current mission system, while adding a new progression and difficulty system with it, finally betting the Mastery Rank system in the bad-game-design-grave it deserves, and replacing it by something that actually, to a certain extent, is reflecting skill instead of 'time you have spend to grind this number of gear to max level', by tracking which self set difficulties you have beaten across all game modes.

 

I know, thats not really your core idea anymore, and just taken the bonus ideas given to make that system you proposed work potentially and put them into the current mission system in place.

 

But to be honest, i dont think the frame for these new gameplay ideas you came up with is very good on it's own, the bonus mission ideas and the cry for something to do with the maxed gear is (and actually getting rewarded for playing your leveled gear), and thats what i guess attracted the upvoters to the idea. 

Edited June 16, 2013 by Asum

[notionphil]

I like the mission ideas, but you brought in way to many personal preferences to cater to your own gameplay needs and what you think you would enjoy currently, which takes away from the grand idea you proposed. 

 

Especially the ideas of down-leveling, or the (already way to important and powerful) use of forma's to make the sheer endless sink for them even deeper shines a very bad light on the whole idea. 

 

[more stuff, primarily about de-leveling]

 

But to be honest, i dont think the frame for these new gameplay ideas you came up with is very good on it's own, the bonus mission ideas and the cry for something to do with the maxed gear is (and actually getting rewarded for playing your leveled gear), and thats what i guess attracted the upvoters to the idea

 

Hi Asum,

 

Thanks for the feedback. I would like to think the upvotes are there because people want a deeper, more challenging Warframe world that rewards them for overcoming challenges. Cells could be a way to make that happen.

 

Given that the key Metagame right now, Mastery, is solely a mechanism to get players to use as much Gear as possible - I wouldn't say that the Cells idea is based off of my playstyle... they are very much in line with the game design.  You obviously don't like Mastery, so its not too shocking you don't like Cells either. However, it's pretty clear DE wants you to build a large arsenal and experiment with different builds and loadouts - that is one reason I incoporated that theme into Cells.

 

De-leveling would be used pretty rarely I'd imagine, so I'm not sure why you thought de-leveling was the focal point of Cells. I've stated it a number of times in the past few pages, most Cells would be level 30.

 

Let me just state that for the record again - most Cells would be level 30 :)

 

The only reason for someone to de-level is if they wanted to run a Cell backstory for a particular piece of lowbie gear (braton mk1, skana, lato, cronus), and wanted the reward, and didn't ever plan on Forma'ing that equipment. Yes, if you wanted a skin/buff for your Skana, you might need to de-level. Those would be the type of Cells which would be lv 10 or 20.

 

That's a small portion of Cells.

 

Remember, you can always run a lowbie Cell with any level loadout, you just won't get the reward. But the reward will generally be for lowbie gear anyway :)

[ZWarhammer]

It took so long for me to scroll down i forgot mostly what the topic was about.

[Asum]

Hi Asum,

 

Thanks for the feedback... 

 

Thank you for your nice response. 

 

You might want to add a little round up of the informations and answers to frequent questions into your OP, since after such a well written and formatted posting people might treat it as information complete  (as i did) and jump right on that post to express their opinion in oder to avoid scrolling tru pages of 'i like' and '+1' (or 'this sucks') posts, as they exist in most threads without actually serving any purpose whatsoever. 

 

I wasn't trying to imply that all of your upvotes simply came tru you promoting some sort of endgame, all i was saying is that I'm sure most people where attracted to this topic (and pledge for an endgame) by simply sharing the same desire. 

 

You quite literally promoted this idea as 'the endgame for warframe'. 

 

That advertisement set the bar quite high and I'm judging the idea after that. 

 

 

I think, especially in core game design, small things matter a lot. 

If most of these 'Cells' will actually be for max level gear (which i wasn't aware of after reading your initial OP) and the low level missions will only offer rewards for mathematically subpar gear, which you can easily acquire early on, and most likely will be trivialized by most more experienced players geared with, even low level, mathematically superior gear, then why do you feel the need to implement a whole feature involving programming, HUD implementations and support taxing player mistakes, just to make this low level cells a little bit more challenging to recieve this apparent non valuable reward for gear the players who would have to de-level in oder to recieve it, most likely will not be using anymore anway?

 

Wouldn't it be easier/better to simply open up the 'Cells', including rewards, to players of all current gear levels, dropping one seemingly pointless restriction at the small cost of trivializing most likely already trivialized content a little bit further (like all low level planets are currently), or better adding a scaling or 'set-your-difficulty' function to the whole game along? 

 

I can't see the decision of 'should i flat out just loose 20 levels on my favourite frame to quickly help a friend for 10 minutes, just to grind it up again in order to play max level content again, until another low level friend needs help' playing out. 

People wouldn't de-level any of their gear if there isn't a very good incentive to do so (like a forma is a way of actually making your gear more powerful in the end, after making it weaker for a while), and even then it would feel bad to loose something. 

We already have formas, i don't think we need more opportunities to loose gear levels. 

 

The reason i picked this one out is because it stands out as not well thought out game mechanic in this otherwise good collection of ideas. 

 

The reason i dislike Mastery greatly is because it forces players to play with gear they don't actually like in order to progess (which leads to not enjoying the game), while making the weapons they actually do like throw aways after they reach level 30 (at which point they would be just ready to rock n' roll). 

 

The point where this ridiculous grind fest stops is way to far down the road (currently level 7 to get access to all the weapons), and even that might increase further in the future. All that will leave new players with a feeling of desperation as they quit the game after they found a weapon they love, but realize that they wont actually use it for the next few months since they will have to grind up endlessly others, or even worse, if they fall in love with a rank 7 (or in future 8;9;10... 30) weapon to begin with. 

 

Besides that, Mastery doesn't reflect skill in any possible way, especially in a PvE game, where it isn't vital to know all the classes, abilities and weapons in and out, but more so your skills, your weapons, your modded speed, damage capabilities and withstand.

A player having played 100+ hours on his one favourite frame, p weapon, s weapon and melee weapon will most likely be superior in skill with that set than a player who mindlessly grinded various gear for the last 100 hours. 

So it does quite the opposite of what it is supposed to do. At least if you are not an Imp, thinking about it as a way to make you buy endless weapons, warframes and the slots needed to store both. 

 

Mastery promotes being a jack of all trades instead of being extremely good at what you like to be good at (up to the point where you can afford to play what you like, which currently is mastery rank 7). And while I'm sure there are some masochistic people who like to 'master' every single weapon and frame in the game, i feel like that should be a personal decision, and not a core progression game mechanic, actually needed to unlock further cool gear. 

 

Every log in I'm faced with the decision of me either having fun, or progression.

That makes Mastery fairly terrible game design, as I'm convinced the majority of players doesn't enjoys grinding up every to them available gear, but instead finding that one frame, weapon.., they love, stick to it, getting better at it, overcoming more challenging content with it and unlocking cooler stuff that way.

[notionphil]

Hi Asum, (read edit below for more thoughts on your position)

Thanks again for the well thought-out reply. Constructive critique like what you are providing helps to improve the Cells concept.

I will write more later but I want to mention two quick points for now.

Firstly, there certainly will be other Cells at low level which are not gear back stories. However you can run them with any gear, so you don't have to de-level or forma your favorite loadout You can save those cells for when you get new frames and gear. In fact, having to save them for later will give you something to 'plan' for, an element currently lacking in the game.

Also there are many players who are not yet level 30. I want them to get excited about the game in their first days. They should have content too. I am sure many of then quit bc of "no content/plot". Not everyone is at endgame.

Secondly, you spoke about wanting to focus on improving a single frame and not change your loadout or be forced to use other gear. I feel that warframe isn't about just one frame or gear. That isn't my preference, I am just observing that from the game mechanic choices DE is making. I think there are many games that are about one character/class/gun/xp bar but this isn't that game IMO. This game is about your arsenal. Your particular loadout is just one small part of it.

I do agree that mastery should be affected by player skill and was brainstorming a separate system for that. Will post when it's ready.

 

 

------

 

Edit.

 

Asum's post inspired me, he has very valid points. I had a long drive home and thought more about mastery, the RNG and the nature of grinding. Since this thread is about Cells and not about Notionphil's musings on Warframe and the nature of MMOs, I'll try to keep this brief.

 

I think that in Warframe currently, your progress through the game IS the Mastery gauge. In a traditional MMO (WoW, EQ) your progress would essentially be individually tied to a specifc character. EG: your wizard is LV 38, your bard is 15, and the twain shall never meet. When you play your Wizard, he gets stronger. Every time. He may find gear to benefit the bard, but generally, he's progressing as you play.

 

But in Warframe, some players start to feel frustrated that we have to constantly 'change classes', to progress, leaving behind all of the 'gains' and power that we have earned in our 'other classes'. EG: in order to level up your 38 wizard, you have to use your 15 bard...but then those bard gains don't affect the wizard?!? That annoys some players. Here are some of those issues broken out:

 

-mastery has no/little account-wide benefit, felt in game

-using your 'best character' feels penalized, as you're no longer progressing

-mastery/progress through the game has no/very little skill based component

 

Basically, I feel that what Asum is getting at is, Warframe currently rewards breadth, but not depth. His playing doesn't make his favorite 'character' stronger. He's only being rewarded for making his 'arsenal' stronger. But that arsenal doesn't affect gameplay directly. I'm not sure I agree with 100% of this sentiment, but I do want to discuss this - probably in a different thread.

 

I definitely think Cells will significantly help address this via Agent level difficulty LV 30 Cells, but I realize that they aren't the only long-term solution required to this problem.

 

Especially helpful will be the Story Arc Cells which will require you to run a number of individual Cells - rewards might for example upgrade your existing gear (like the 'Cerberus' Gorgon Skin upgrade, base dmg to Fire, flaming tracer rounds). When you are running these, you are enhancing your power while playing your 'favorite character'.

Edited June 17, 2013 by notionphil

[Dieson]

Well boo! >_<, here i thought i'd found a thread you and Phaenur should have a look at and it turns out you started it, Notionphil ^_^

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/66119-harmony-the-opposite-of-mastery-an-overhaul-of-affinity/

 

Check it out for those of you who haven't seen it yet.

 

Harmony, Cells and Retaking Origin, these 3 threads / ideas would in my mind fit together as great as Carbon, Hydrogen and Oxygen does! :)

Edited June 18, 2013 by Dieson

[Reichmar]

Hi notionphil,

 

I'm not invading your thread or anything, I've already agreed with your ideas and love them.

 

Just reminding folks (and DE) that this was intended to be a partner to a proper linear endgame, in case someone didn't notice :-)

 

Good luck with this idea!

[MyXmaN]

+1.

Couldnt have done it better myself!

Thank you for your hard work - there were plenty of suggestions on forums and you did a good job putting everything together and inventing such a system.

 

Now, where can i throw my money to see this system in-game?

[halofury36]

This thread is really fun to read.... anyway, thanks notionphil, for responding to my comment. I personally really enjoy playing in 2-3 person team, hence my concern and suggestion. The 'cell' concept could get me into playing full teams, but then again, I like playing with my friends - even when the odds are not in my favor :)

 

I wanted to throw out the thought that perhaps one way to implement the cell system would be to have milestones on an item/warframe where at level 10, you unlock the first cell challenge; then at 20 would be the second; and the last for that specific item would be at 30. Not sure if this was suggested, but it bypasses RNG to give people progression and deepen an item/warframe's particular story. This is not meant to be all of the content, but just a more predicatable method to enjoy items and a few cells.

 

I think it would be fair to say that just like void keys, the one with the item would have the mission and then as leader, a team could be recruited to join - that way it is still a team effort, but the content is specific to the items used.

 

Another idea is that perhaps at certain mastery levels an account would gain a "token" that could be used to "purchase" missions, with some being missions specific to items that are maxed out? This would allow for expanded content, beyond the max level of the item - while giving a purpose to an account level.

 

A lot can still be done with this, and I would like to keep working on this concept.

[DeonXela]

+1.
DE, we need more story and a reason to play beyond power for the sake of power.

[notionphil]

This thread is really fun to read.... anyway, thanks notionphil, for responding to my comment. I personally really enjoy playing in 2-3 person team, hence my concern and suggestion. The 'cell' concept could get me into playing full teams, but then again, I like playing with my friends - even when the odds are not in my favor :)

 

.....

 

 

I think it would be fair to say that just like void keys, the one with the item would have the mission and then as leader, a team could be recruited to join - that way it is still a team effort, but the content is specific to the items used.

 

.....

 

Another idea is that perhaps at certain mastery levels an account would gain a "token" that could be used to "purchase" missions, with some being missions specific to items that are maxed out? This would allow for expanded content, beyond the max level of the item - while giving a purpose to an account level.

 

A lot can still be done with this, and I would like to keep working on this concept.

 

Hi Halofury,

 

Thanks for your reply and ideas. I am definitely invisioning Dossiers like Void Keys, where the one with the item chooses the team (and decides if its level restricted or not).

 

Speaking of Mastery...I have also come up with another idea, inspired by suggestions from this thread:

 

Harmony - The Opposite of Mastery: rewarding skill based high-level play

Edited June 18, 2013 by notionphil

[Enot83]

I like where this is going or what it can lead to.  +1

[Mokuton-]

Love the concept, great job man!

[notionphil]

 

Love the concept, great job man!

 

Thanks! Guys make sure to ask questions about Cells in the Livestream if you'd like to see this implemented :)

[ArtanKatana]

While I find the idea of lower leveled cells interesting and a little exciting, I would personaly like to see some form of story played out in these sets of missions.  Things like, for example, the defense of an exposed listening post or an assault on one of the Corpus' Leadership/Clergy.  The issue comes from getting the needed voice work.  While I have no idea what Rebecca has as a work schedule, making the speech would take quite some time.  Time that the Dev team sounds like they need quite badly right now.

 

So, all in all.  Great idea.  I support this for what it is worth.  More story.

Hope that stirs some thought out there.

[revizion]

This is a friggin awesome idea. Let's get this implemented!