[Operation: Cornucopia] Fixing The Farming - Masterthread.

[Ced23Ric]

I think uncommon/common resource alerts is a good idea. I would love to see it implemented. However, it seems that only rare resources will be given from Alerts. I just want to voice my opinion that uncommon/common resource alerts would be good, and give my reasoning.

 

Okay, I see what you are saying. You are looking at the proposal of resource alerts in a vacuum and say: "But what about my commons/uncommons?" Rightfully so, not debating that point. Nevertheless, that is addressed. Exactly for that reason, I proposed the new mission type.

 

Quoting myself:

 

The intention with "Acquisition" is to provide a reliable and enjoyable source of common and uncommon resources. Thin about 50% more than a scrounging run would give. If you can get 1000 Ferrite from a "no stone left unturned"-run, the average Acquisition should give 1500 Ferrite - say, 750 - 1000 from murdering merrily through mobs, and another 500 - 750 from the reward for completeing it. This is not intended to be a source of rare materials, which are covered in a more rare form - the resource alerts. Common mission for common mats, rare alerts for rare resources. Makes sense, I hope.

Why rare resources in alerts and no common/uncommon ones? Because alerts are rare, by nature. If you put common resources into alerts, they will feel like a wasted shot at getting some rare resources. Furthermore, I addressed the higher demand for common/uncommon resources, be it for clan dojo building or making weapons, in another post in this series - Missiontype: Acquistion.

 

Makes sense? Because, putting common resources into alerts is like a 2000 credit alert next to a BP alert. And a mission type that gives rare resources is like dropping BPs from trash mobs instead just form bosses. The source does not correlate to the reward, if you will. I am trying to preserve the rare resources as rare, while addressing the overall haphazard, soul-sucking nature of the current resource acquisition.

[Depar]

Ced23Ric, ppl champ/moderator

 

here are rly awesome examples how the ressource dropsystem could get improved

 like it

[StereoTypo]

 

...we are looking at over 125 hours of pure boss-farming, just for materials...  

...That is not a number for a casual gamer. Let's say the casual gamer plays Warframe for an hour every day, three on the weekend. With a rounded-up 10 hours a week, it would take him 13 weeks just to get the parts to make stuff, and that doesn't include frames yet - just weapons. In that time, he wouldn't have anything else ahead of him, just murdering the same bosses over and over.

This is exactly the feeling I'm getting post reset as I'm in a position where I have limited time to play Warframe. Prior to U8 I didn't feel I had to pour in hours of grinding to unlock and experience the new additions to the game but I'm now stuck grinding for much longer periods of time. When my time is limited and spread out unevenly over multiple weeks, the game begins to stale, (far faster than it ever did before). 

The lack of incentive to grind, ( the feeling you get when a boss drops nothing but a single batch of common materials), makes the proverbial carrot-on-a-stick appear to be beyond my reach. The rate at which I access new areas, frames and weapons has been severely impeded as a result, (a feeling that is only softened by working with a large clan and having previously purchased a founders pack).

 

To those who are free to invest their time/money in the game at will, this might not feel as harsh but, from my personal perspective, if DE wants to attract a mature demographic, a group that works for the money they will spend in-game, they need to realize that effort and reward need to feel correlated. Not every gamer can invest hours, especially weekday hours, to unlock everything, (and I'm not saying that it shouldn't take hours to unlock everything), but a balance must be struck between stretching out the content of a game and the feeling of progression and accomplishment that makes you want to play in the first place.

Edited June 17, 2013 by StereoTypo

[.Fyr.]

plastic resource now more harder! -,-"

[SnokyoDrift]

• Add resource alerts. ~ reworking the alerts to become meaningful, rather than mere teases/annoyances

 

An extension to this would be to make credits useful for something. There's really no viable F2P when the in game currency doesn't buy you anything.

[unmog]

Makes sense? Because, putting common resources into alerts is like a 2000 credit alert next to a BP alert. And a mission type that gives rare resources is like dropping BPs from trash mobs instead just form bosses. The source does not correlate to the reward, if you will. I am trying to preserve the rare resources as rare, while addressing the overall haphazard, soul-sucking nature of the current resource acquisition.

I disagree on that point Cedric, Alerts arent that rare. I don't mind restating my own suggestion though.

 

If someone puts in a chance for resources in alerts [which I assume if they do, it will probably be a chance and not 100% guaranteed] it seems they have 3 "boxes" for items.

 

The first box seems to be guaranteed credits, second box seems to be small chance for an item. I think certain items either have a super small chance, or are just not included into the random part of the draw and are added manually... by human intervention, like vauban parts or potatoes. The last third box seems to be always empty.

 

So we have 1, and possibly 2 chances at least for a resource reward to pop up. The resource imo should be determined by the location the alert is in. I'm going to pick a planet randomly, the last one that was just in the game. Europa. It has Morphics, Rubedo, Circuits and Fieldron Samples.

 

For rare materials like Morphics, it'd be nice to get at least 1 or 2, maybe 3. Exact numbers arent important right now, just the general idea of a resource reward.

 

For uncommon resources like rubedo, I'd assume the rewards would be more like 5-10 drops, maybe more. Exact numbers are unimportant. Regardless rubedo drops in amounts of 10-50. So a mission reward for rubedo might be between 50-500 using those numbers and RNG.

 

Circuits are a common resource, so for common resources higher numbers would be more viable, like 10-20 drops worth, again maybe more? Again the exact numbers arent important, the only thing that is important is you get more than you would for an "uncommon" material reward. Since you can get like 40 to 80? [not sure, it doesnt list specifically in the wiki], just again multiple the results. So anywhere between 400 and 1600 circuits would be a good reward.

 

For something like research materials, I dunno, maybe 10-20, maybe more, they're fairly common as well right?

 

If you look, you can see that all resources could and probably should be rewards for alert missions, just the numbers for common ones should be high, and rare ones should be low. I think the chance of materials should be even, like a 25% chance for morphics, rubedo, circuits or fieldron samples in the case of an Europa mission. But if DE wanted to they could make rare materials weighted more, like 40% for morphics, 20% for circuits, rubedo, and fieldron samples. Im sure DE already knows how to weight percentages so they could figure that out on their own... >.>

Edited June 17, 2013 by unmog

[Ced23Ric]

I disagree on that point Cedric, Alerts arent that rare.

 

[...]

 

No - alerts in general are not rare. Good alerts are rare. If you put the resource rewards simply as another chance into the third window of alert rewards, you are adding more RNG instead of less, causing people to run alerts they will be disappointed by because they do not know what they are signing uo for ... or you reduce resource alerts to a byproduct of other alerts, diminishing their potential significance.

 

You need an audience to perform a good show. Without alerts that merely drop credits, a resource alert or a BP alert would be a lot less exciting. There needs to be a balance between the different alerts to make them special alerts stay special. In the scenario, though, putting common resources into a rare alert when there already is an answer to common resource demands is simply a bad design decision. It is pretty obvious, is it not? You want rare resources - this Gallium alert is for you. You need thousands of Ferrite? You can farm this mission.

 

Don't look at the four suggestions in a vacuum, look at them as a whole.

[unmog]

 

No - alerts in general are not rare. Good alerts are rare. If you put the resource rewards simply as another chance into the third window of alert rewards, you are adding more RNG instead of less, causing people to run alerts they will be disappointed by because they do not know what they are signing uo for ... or you reduce resource alerts to a byproduct of other alerts, diminishing their potential significance.

 

You need an audience to perform a good show. Without alerts that merely drop credits, a resource alert or a BP alert would be a lot less exciting. There needs to be a balance between the different alerts to make them special alerts stay special. In the scenario, though, putting common resources into a rare alert when there already is an answer to common resource demands is simply a bad design decision. It is pretty obvious, is it not? You want rare resources - this Gallium alert is for you. You need thousands of Ferrite? You can farm this mission.

 

Don't look at the four suggestions in a vacuum, look at them as a whole.

I am looking at them as a whole. And I suppose I wasnt specific. If they include a resource, instead of a ? box, it should instead show the picture of the resource, and a number by it, so people KNOW what the reward is. Just like they can see the amount of credits a mission offers.

 

However I again disagree, why is a large amount of common resources worse than a small amount of rare resources? In your example specifically, Id rather have like 3000 ferrite instead of 3 gallium... lots of things require ferrite, nothing really requires gallium. Kinda shot yourself in the foot there see?

[catastrophy]

We got a lot of missions all over the solar system that are barely worth replaying after unlocking the planet(oid). I'd like to see more resource heavy missions. DE puts a lot of work in the map generation, but what is it worth if everyone keeps playing defense missions?

 

Some missions reward with a mod for completion. These are abundant in defense missions. 

Instead it could look like this e.g:

Raid missions could reward system specific resources

Capture missions could reward faction specific special resources (detonite etc.)

[Ced23Ric]

However I again disagree, why is a large amount of common resources worse than a small amount of rare resources? In your example specifically, Id rather have like 3000 ferrite instead of 3 gallium... lots of things require ferrite, nothing really requires gallium. Kinda shot yourself in the foot there see?

 

Not at all. My foot's perfectly healthy. If you want 3000 Ferrite, you can go and get that, running an Acquisition mission. It is a massive quantity of a common resource - there ya go, get it. It's right there. Don't want the 3 Gallium? Don't do the alert. It's not for you then, just like you don't need 2x Trinity Aura helmets. One suffices. But little Johnny didn't get an Aura helmet, and he is glad about that alert. That helmet is rare and special, and he is happy he gets a shot at one. Trinity parts, on the other hand, he can farm all day long at Vay Hek's hideous hideout.

 

Rarity correlated between source and reward. I really don't want to come across as agitated, but I am repeating something very simple in nature. If you need a common resource, in large quantities, between 1,000 and 150,000, that drops in ~75 packs, an alert cannot and should not be a valid source. If you need a special resource, in low quantities, between 10 and 500, that drop in singles, a boss cannot and should not be a valid source. If you need a rare resource, in low quantities, between 2 and 5, that drop in singles, an alert can and should be a valid source.

 

Where are you disagreeing with that? I am trying to get my logic across here. Common stuff? Give me a repeatable, hopefully enjoyably designed mission. Farm your little heart out. Rare stuff? Give me predictable, reliable sources, but make those rare and/or unique - such as bosses, elites and alerts. Give me specific tools to address specific needs that are tailored to the specific nature of the rewards.

 

We got a lot of missions all over the solar system that are barely worth replaying after unlocking the planet(oid). I'd like to see more resource heavy missions. DE puts a lot of work in the map generation, but what is it worth if everyone keeps playing defense missions?

 

Some missions reward with a mod for completion. These are abundant in defense missions. 

Instead it could look like this e.g:

Raid missions could reward system specific resources

Capture missions could reward faction specific special resources (detonite etc.)

 

Changing the behaviour of those missions is one one hand a break in "logic" (ingame, that is) and on the other hand would invalidate the chance to add a new game mode to break up the landscape. Why remove mod rewards (especially for new players, these are usefull!) from Raid, Capture, Spy, when they do serve a purpose and are a source for Banshee parts, too? I would rather not disrupt existing mission structures too much and expand the palette instead.

[unmog]

If you want 3000 Ferrite, you can go and get that, running an Acquisition mission. It is a massive quantity of a common resource - there ya go, get it. It's right there.

Yea I know, Im in support of the aquisition mission idea too. But why sepperate aquisition missions for common and not have a chance of rares, and why sepperate alert missions to have only rare materials? Like you said, alerts themselves are fairly common, it makes sense that some alerts might have a reward for common materials. Not to repeat myself overly much either, but I think the resource reward should logically be based on the planet the alert is in. And Sedna is a prime example, because its a system without a rare resource. You can also farm for rare resources as well you know? I'm not limiting myself in terms of rare or not, I'm thinking more along the terms of "time". How long does it take to farm for 3 gallium? So if theres an alert mission that offers 3 gallium, there should be an alert that offers an equal amount of ferrite, in terms of time of investment it takes to farm it. All resources are important after all, not just rares.

 

If you need a common resource, in large quantities, between 1,000 and 150,000, that drops in ~75 packs, an alert cannot and should not be a valid source. If you need a special resource, in low quantities, between 10 and 500, that drop in singles, a boss cannot and should not be a valid source. If you need a rare resource, in low quantities, between 2 and 5, that drop in singles, an alert can and should be a valid source.

I suppose this is the part I disagree with. No alerts wouldn't be a valid means of replacing farming, but they happen so often [assuming you have the missions unlocked] that theres no reason to ignore non-rare resources. It should be just as random as the alerts normally are, it feels more in the spirit of how alerts work. Seems theres another one or two every half hour. Id rather have random appearing resources [as long as the rewards are known in the game before accepting the mission] than a low chance to have a rare resource. Besides, you cant "farm" alerts anyway, its just a random "Oh look theres a special mission with a better reward" so I see no reason why there shouldn't be variety in rewards other than rare resources. Other than that tiny point, I agree mostly with the idea and spirit behind your suggestion. :)

 

As far as the acquisition missions, yes those sound good as well. But even on that thread people mentioned it would be nice to have an option to get a small amount of rare materials instead of a large amount of common. Thats why variety will usually win out, and thats why I think DE loves the RNG as much as they do. If you were just farming acquisition missions, every time getting like 500 rubedo or something, it'd get boring. The rewards for a mission, if there was a reward, should vary some, should be different sometimes.

 

 

 

Not so much related to the above... a token system

I know there's some talk about a token system, but I dont think its necessary. They already have something close to a token system, they just ignore it for the most part. Im talking about credits, which are under utilized, which is why people complain about alerts in the first place. They only give bonus credits for completion, but no one really needs credits since you can't use them for much

 

To fix this DE just really needs to implement two things. 1= allow you to sell things... including extra resources. 2= also allow you to buy certain resources [and other things] as well. You'd probably get screwed some in the exchange, selling things for less than their value, buying things for more, but thats pretty much what people are asking for with a token system anyway.

 

Theres tons of things people invest time in, "farming". Credits are just another resource if someone thinks about it, but should be more of a general one. It should be feasible to invest time into getting more credits and buying stuff you need as well, or at least selling stuff you dont need to trade for other things. Maybe you can't buy everything, maybe theres a "market" based on how much people are buying and selling that raises or lowers the price of certain materials. Who knows, just saying the potential is already there.

 

The only suggestion I'd give if such a system was introduced is lower the amount of credits you get as void rewards, they're pretty rediculous and would make farming for resources too easy if all you had to do was run void runs all day, amass a huge amount of credits, and just buy everything else ya need from the store.

Edited June 17, 2013 by unmog

[Ced23Ric]

But why sepperate aquisition missions for common and not have a chance of rares, and why sepperate alert missions to have only rare materials? [...]

 

Fair enough. I guess I am not using the right words to describe my vision here. Let's leave it at that.

 

PS: If you would kindly take the token idea and give it's own thread? Thankies. :)

[Mickey1779]

All four of these options have merit but I suspect not all will get implemented at least not immediately.

 

I hope DE decides to implement at least two though initially.

 

My choices for the two to address the currently grinding issues in the game are:

 

#1 - Make count what we kill - Need to undiluted those boss loot tables and make loot drop from what it deserves to drop from.

 

#4 - Mission Type: Acquisition - No matter how you slice it, farming 10,000s of any common / uncommon resource is boring as hell and takes forever.

[Ced23Ric]

Not really a vote, not really a gauge on what is more "possible". All four proposals are possible and do not require too much worked based off the existing systems. Just nummerical balance (which is why I left those out, mostly).

[catastrophy]

[...]

 

 

Changing the behaviour of those missions is one one hand a break in "logic" (ingame, that is) and on the other hand would invalidate the chance to add a new game mode to break up the landscape. Why remove mod rewards (especially for new players, these are usefull!) from Raid, Capture, Spy, when they do serve a purpose and are a source for Banshee parts, too? I would rather not disrupt existing mission structures too much and expand the palette instead.

New players should venture in the lower levels - rewards still could reflect this and keep the mod rewards. But in the higher level scenarios mod rewards really make little sense.

Concerning the Banshee parts - weren't the drop probabilities tied to certain missions?

Edited June 17, 2013 by catastrophy

[unmog]

PS: If you would kindly take the token idea and give it's own thread? Thankies. :)

Naw... people have suggested it before, making a thread about it wont matter.

 

New players should venture in the lower levels - rewards still could reflect this and keep the mod rewards. But in the higher level scenarios mod rewards really make little sense.

Concerning the Banshee parts - weren't the drop probabilities tied to certain missions?

Yup, can get them from high level defense missions a little easier now. Each faction drops a different one as well.

[Callback]

The only point where I disagree with you is on the common/uncommon resources.  I went through and looked at what I needed, and I need a LOOOOOOT of most of those, with things like nano spores, rubedo, and polymer bundle being the ones that are too abundant while salvage, ferrite, and plastids are going to hurt me the most.  Especially with clan dojos the way they are, we could really use a bigger abundance of all resources, not just rares.

[Ced23Ric]

The only point where I disagree with you is on the common/uncommon resources.  I went through and looked at what I needed, and I need a LOOOOOOT of most of those, with things like nano spores, rubedo, and polymer bundle being the ones that are too abundant while salvage, ferrite, and plastids are going to hurt me the most.  Especially with clan dojos the way they are, we could really use a bigger abundance of all resources, not just rares.

 

Because I keep repeating myself and people keep disagreeing with me although I am addressing exactly what they think is lacking: Please read the Missiontype: Acquisition thread.

[Excitonex]

Because I keep repeating myself and people keep disagreeing with me although I am addressing exactly what they think is lacking: Please read the Missiontype: Acquisition thread.

Perhaps the problem is they don't feel a static acquisition style mission is the solution?

[Edeamous]

Is there a reason why Ash systems Blueprints are either insanely rare or just not dropping period? I've done 30 runs on Titania so far and ZERO luck.

[MisterE]

NO to resource reward alerts, getting a huge chunk of resources undermines traditional methods of killing stuff and exploring

[Callback]

Because I keep repeating myself and people keep disagreeing with me although I am addressing exactly what they think is lacking: Please read the Missiontype: Acquisition thread.

I'm only disagreeing with your current analysis of them being abundant at the moment.

[Scyris]

Did you reset or join since the introduction of U8? Because if not, materials carried over from previous iterations of the game are not exactly applicable for the sake of an argument. The acquisition of 15 Control Modules alone can take over 60 runs of the Hyena.

60 and thats if your lucky.

[Ced23Ric]

Perhaps the problem is they don't feel a static acquisition style mission is the solution?

 

Fair enough. That would be the first mentioning of that, though. And additionally, while I am looking for alternative suggestions, I see none so far. Nevertheless, care to explain "static"? The word stands out a little. What do you mean by that?

PS: I may be dense, but how is an explicit source for a resource in demand not a solution? If you want water, you go to a tap. You could use a cup and take water out of a puddle, but there's a tap right there. What's wrong with the tap?

 

NO to resource reward alerts, getting a huge chunk of resources undermines traditional methods of killing stuff and exploring

 

How so? You still need to kill stuff. You still need to explore. Actually, I suggested something specifically to give people incentive to explore more. What?

 

I'm only disagreeing with your current analysis of them being abundant at the moment.

 

Fair enough, and I admit that, you are correct. Abundance applies only without taking clan research and construction into account. Amended the OP accordingly.

[Drogra]

Yesterday, I spent over 5 hours farming Everest for Neurodes.  I got 1.  In every single other run, I got a stupid clan resource.

Then I shifted over and started trying to farm Morphics.  After 20+ runs on Vor, I had recieved 0 Morphics as every run was a Detonite.  So I figured Id'e go kill Anyo a few times just to see if I could get lucky.  Doing 5 full clears, I received 0 Morphics.  In fact, Anyo refused to drop any crafting mats.  He dropped only a Schematic and a Mod every time.

Pre-U8, all it took was a bit of time, and I would get (on average) 2 from every 3 runs, and occasionally I would get lucky and pick up a freebie from a chest/locker/non-boss.  Now I have to spend hours farming for 1 or 2 Rare mats to make normal weapons.