It's high time we got a new lever action rifle

[--Q--uaint]

1 hour ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Yeah, but MECHANICALLY awesome, not just visually. I mean, a lever action rifle with dragon/flame-themed light engraving and explosive piercing rounds is a supremely awesome weapon, a kind of weapon that would make every other weapon in the game look very unexciting; it would look amazing, feel amazing, and sound powerful as hell.

Hmmm. While it would be mechanically awesome, certainly, I think it's kinda bland. Bland is good sometimes, but I like my weird weapons. For instance, I used and loved my standard Simulor for quite a while before they released the Synoid version.

Even when competing with other mechanically bland weapons, it surely will not cover every base. The Tigris series has handling and sound effects that I really love, and this weapon concept would not stand in for that special joy in any way.

 

Also, while it's concept/mechanics are good, I'd like to note the following:

Whether I'd like the weapon at all depends on basically one thing. If it is a crit-based weapon, can you mod it to reasonably (and yes, that includes Argon Scope and possibly Critical Delay depending on other stats) reach 100% crit? I really, really dislike weapons that don't give consistent results - I don't use snipers for that reason.

If it is crit-based and cannot get 100% reasonably, then I would probably only use it if it was extremely meta. Even if I used it, I wouldn't enjoy it :P

 

[DaftMeat]

For the sake of comparison, here are the existing LARs as well as Opticor for the sake of a balance reference:

From description, the target area for Ryojis is Between Dex Sybaris and Opticor. If it's an armor piercing shell with an explosive, it sounds like heavy Puncture damage with innate Blast damage. Perhaps it could be the first non-launcher weapon to really do both IPS and Elemental as innate damage (Azima doesn't count). I'd think it's more likely to be a Status-based than Crit-based also to apply knockdown from the Blast effect. Most of the other Blast weapons do 300-400 damage (Kulstar, Angstrum, Tonkor), so the total damage should be somewhere along that range, probably at the higher end.

 

1 hour ago, AdunSaveMe said:

It's a slow, powerful mid-range rifle with explosive rounds. It doesn't need a scope to be good. And what, why do I have to come up with stats? I'd never come up with any good numbers, because I don't balance the game, and the numbers aren't the point. A concept is not innately better off because you put some numbers into it that could just easily be changed by DE in an instant.

A base concept is fine, sure. But if you're hoping for the idea to get noticed and take shape and actually get into the game, putting extra effort into trying to come up with balanced stats and even concept artwork would help a lot. In every Primetime, the community spotlights usually show fully-fleshed out ideas. I like the direction you're looking towards with this weapon idea. I'm just hoping it can get taken to the next level now. I'm not great with numbers either, but that's no reason to ignore it. If others want to add constructive criticism for the sake of balance, I'm all for it.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, Popstupid said:

Then say it has a zoom in option, a lot of primaries don't have scopes or zoom option.

literally 100% of the Guns in the game have Fine Aim, or a Scope.

1 hour ago, Rehtael7 said:

The new sniper mod extends the combo duration by 12 seconds.

keyword has been outlined.
same deal as Melee Counter, for the most part unusable without a Mod. making the mechanic irrelevant, unless you opt to add a Mod for it.

39 minutes ago, DaftMeat said:

From description

v2 then:

still 1m innate Punch-Through, explodes after piercing any obstacle.

so i'll go with this, has some Blast Damage in the Projectile Damage, as well as exploding after piercing an obstacle.
with the solid Status Chance that means if you shoot through a group of Enemies, a few of them will get Blast and if close enough, they'll all knock each other down while taking the Damage.
plus the Explosion after piercing something, which forces Blast Status on any Enemies hit, as well as being able to create Status normally. 

there's also a choice to make here. does the explosion scuttle the projectile, or not?
- will it then tradeoff being able to pierce (infinite, but that's a complaint for a different Thread, though if we had two types of Punch-Through this problem wouldn't exist) Enemies, and explode after piercing the first, scuttling the projectile in the process?
- or will it make some space magic, explode after the first Enemy, but also continue flight?

[Popstupid]

Just now, taiiat said:

literally 100% of the Guns in the game have Fine Aim, or a Scope.

keyword has been outlined.
same deal as Melee Counter, for the most part unusable without a Mod. making the mechanic irrelevant, unless you opt to add a Mod for it.

 

v2 then:

still 1m innate Punch-Through, explodes after piercing any obstacle.

so i'll go with this, has some Blast Damage in the Projectile Damage, as well as exploding after piercing an obstacle.
with the solid Status Chance that means if you shoot through a group of Enemies, a few of them will get Blast and if close enough, they'll all knock each other down while taking the Damage.
plus the Explosion after piercing something, which forces Blast Status on any Enemies hit, as well as being able to create Status normally. 

there's also a choice to make here. does the explosion scuttle the projectile, or not?
- will it then tradeoff being able to pierce (infinite, but that's a complaint for a different Thread, though if we had two types of Punch-Through this problem wouldn't exist) Enemies, and explode after piercing the first, scuttling the projectile in the process?
- or will it make some space magic, explode after the first Enemy, but also continue flight?

 

Not all guns have scopes or zoom in options...get your facts right 

[Rehtael7]

Just now, taiiat said:

literally 100% of the Guns in the game have Fine Aim, or a Scope.

keyword has been outlined.
same deal as Melee Counter, for the most part unusable without a Mod. making the mechanic irrelevant, unless you opt to add a Mod for it.

 

v2 then:

still 1m innate Punch-Through, explodes after piercing any obstacle.

so i'll go with this, has some Blast Damage in the Projectile Damage, as well as exploding after piercing an obstacle.
with the solid Status Chance that means if you shoot through a group of Enemies, a few of them will get Blast and if close enough, they'll all knock each other down while taking the Damage.
plus the Explosion after piercing something, which forces Blast Status on any Enemies hit, as well as being able to create Status normally. 

there's also a choice to make here. does the explosion scuttle the projectile, or not?
- will it then tradeoff being able to pierce (infinite, but that's a complaint for a different Thread, though if we had two types of Punch-Through this problem wouldn't exist) Enemies, and explode after piercing the first, scuttling the projectile in the process?
- or will it make some space magic, explode after the first Enemy, but also continue flight?

That mod unlocks the potential of melee weapons. Literally the more you use it, the stronger it gets. It's a mod that allows your melee weapons to reach 400%-450% more damage. That's more potential damage than any other singular mod in the game.

[taiiat]

2 minutes ago, Popstupid said:

Not all guns have scopes or zoom in options...get your facts right 

all Guns have either Fine Aim or a Scope.

feel free to mention any Gun that you think doesn't have it, and i will record a 3 second clip of showing you that you're wrong.
though you could also play the game at all and know that you're wrong. but w/e.

1 minute ago, Rehtael7 said:

That mod unlocks the potential of melee weapons. Literally the more you use it, the stronger it gets. It's a mod that allows your melee weapons to reach 400%-450% more damage. That's more potential damage than any other singular mod in the game.

uh... yes? but without said Mods, those mechanics are unusable.
for Sniper Rifles, Rubico and Lanka can make use of the counter because the former has a low Tier counter and the latter has a fairly long base timer.

if you want to make a 'direct comparison' with a Weapon that has such a Counter and a Weapon that does not, i guess you'd create two scenarios:
5 abreast Lv30-40 Enemies and identify how much Damage was dealt to each Enemy on average and total TTK
5 abreast Lv60ish Enemies and identify how much Damage was dealt to each Enemy on average and total TTK

[Rehtael7]

Just now, taiiat said:

all Guns have either Fine Aim or a Scope.

feel free to mention any Gun that you think doesn't have it, and i will record a 3 second clip of showing you that you're wrong.
though you could also play the game at all and know that you're wrong. but w/e.

uh... yes? but without said Mods, those mechanics are unusable.
for Sniper Rifles, Rubico and Lanka can make use of the counter because the former has a low Tier counter and the latter has a fairly long base timer.

if you want to make a 'direct comparison' with a Weapon that has such a Counter and a Weapon that does not, i guess you'd create two scenarios:
5 abreast Lv30-40 Enemies and identify how much Damage was dealt to each Enemy on average and total TTK
5 abreast Lv60ish Enemies and identify how much Damage was dealt to each Enemy on average and total TTK

In this point of the game, is it reasonable to measure a gun's merit without mods? Do you EVER measure a crit weapon's worth without taking crit mods into account? Do you measure the value of the Prisma Skana without the Loka mod? You shouldn't.

[Popstupid]

1 minute ago, taiiat said:

all Guns have either Fine Aim or a Scope.

feel free to mention any Gun that you think doesn't have it, and i will record a 3 second clip of showing you that you're wrong.
though you could also play the game at all and know that you're wrong. but w/e.

uh... yes? but without said Mods, those mechanics are unusable.
for Sniper Rifles, Rubico and Lanka can make use of the counter because the former has a low Tier counter and the latter has a fairly long base timer.

if you want to make a 'direct comparison' with a Weapon that has such a Counter and a Weapon that does not, i guess you'd create two scenarios:
5 abreast Lv30-40 Enemies and identify how much Damage was dealt to each Enemy on average and total TTK
5 abreast Lv60ish Enemies and identify how much Damage was dealt to each Enemy on average and total TTK

 

Quanta series, phage, penta (when there is a grenade in the air) 

[Rehtael7]

1 minute ago, Popstupid said:

Quanta series, phage, penta (when there is a grenade in the air) 

That is no longer the case. ALL of those weapons were given an aiming mode.

[DaftMeat]

3 minutes ago, Popstupid said:

Quanta series, phage, penta (when there is a grenade in the air) 

They have zoom. Alt Fire was added as a separate key.

*Edit: in the case of Phage, Aim and Beam Convergence just happen at the same time.

Edited May 2, 2016 by DaftMeat

[Popstupid]

Just now, Rehtael7 said:

That is no longer the case. ALL of those weapons were given an aiming mode.

So the Latron does have one actually, can't wait to rub that in the OP's face.

[Popstupid]

Just now, DaftMeat said:

They have zoom. Alt Fire was added as a separate key.

No need to repeat what Rahtael just told me

[AdunSaveMe]

1 hour ago, DaftMeat said:

The hard part is not the concept, but how it fits into the game. What are its mechanics? What are its stats? How does it perform and compare to other weapons? Is it a critical weapon? Is it a status weapon? Is it an Impact base damage weapon or pure Blast damage? Why would someone use it instead of a Vectis? Or a Soma Prime?

If this was a thought process we had to go through every time, there would not be a large number of certain weapons. It doesn't have to be the mostu nique thing in the game and only do things no other gun does; it just has to be a fun option. Otherwise, why add a new beam weapon when we already have one? Or a new sword? Or a new dual auto pistol?

[DaftMeat]

Just now, Popstupid said:

No need to repeat what Rahtael just told me

We just posted around the same time.

[taiiat]

Just now, Rehtael7 said:

Do you EVER measure a crit weapon's worth without taking crit mods into account? Do you measure the value of the Prisma Skana without the Loka mod? You shouldn't.

there's no contest for Mod Slot usage with those Mods though, because they apply in 100% of situations and you always deal more Damage with them.
whether your Sniper Rifle (assuming no other Utility Mods intended to be used other than Punch-Through) chooses 90% Elemental 3 or being able to use Counter though, isn't as clear cut.
an Elemental to give you not as awful Multipliers vs say, a second Armor type, is quite valuable. stacking more Damage could compensate for the lack of that, but up to what Level before the Armor overcomes that, is the question.

3 minutes ago, Popstupid said:

Quanta series, phage, penta (when there is a grenade in the air) 

when is the last time you played the game? Alternate Fire has been around for... 6+ months.
they replied faster, but it's no surprise since they weren't recording clips.

https://gfycat.com/FarThornyAfricancivet

https://gfycat.com/CluelessSafeBrant

https://gfycat.com/ThankfulExaltedAnteater

1 minute ago, Popstupid said:

So the Latron does have one actually, can't wait to rub that in the OP's face.

uhh, ofcourse it does? he said it doesn't have a Scope. which it does not. it has Fine Aim.

[Rehtael7]

Just now, taiiat said:

there's no contest for Mod Slot usage with those Mods though, because they apply in 100% of situations and you always deal more Damage with them.
whether your Sniper Rifle (assuming no other Utility Mods intended to be used other than Punch-Through) chooses 90% Elemental 3 or being able to use Counter though, isn't as clear cut.
an Elemental to give you not as awful Multipliers vs say, a second Armor type, is quite valuable. stacking more Damage could compensate for the lack of that, but up to what Level before the Armor overcomes that, is the question.

when is the last time you played the game? Alternate Fire has been around for... 6+ months.
they replied faster, but it's no surprise since they weren't recording clips.

https://gfycat.com/FarThornyAfricancivet

https://gfycat.com/CluelessSafeBrant

https://gfycat.com/ThankfulExaltedAnteater

uhh, ofcourse it does? he said it doesn't have a Scope. which it does not. it has Fine Aim.

Combo mods also apply in 100% of situations short of your inability to aim.

[taiiat]

19 hours ago, Rehtael7 said:

Combo mods also apply in 100% of situations short of your inability to aim.

only once the Counter is built to atleast Tier1: 1.5x.
for most of the Sniper Rifles, that's 3 hits. so either Killing two Enemies first and then aiming at your intended target, or your intended target takes several shots to Kill in the first place.

19 hours ago, Popstupid said:

 

[Popstupid]

Just now, taiiat said:

only once the Counter is built to atleast Tier1: 1.5x.
for most of the Sniper Rifles, that's 3 hits. so either Killing two Enemies first and then aiming at your intended target, or your intended target takes several shots to Kill in the first place.

i offered to record clips of any Weapon to show you empiracally that everything has Fine Aim or a Scope.
so i was offering to show proof of my claims. i don't think i was the one getting my jimmies rustled.

 

Then don't go around saying I'm a dumb S#&$ and have never played the game

[Rehtael7]

Just now, taiiat said:

only once the Counter is built to atleast Tier1: 1.5x.
for most of the Sniper Rifles, that's 3 hits. so either Killing two Enemies first and then aiming at your intended target, or your intended target takes several shots to Kill in the first place.

i offered to record clips of any Weapon to show you empiracally that everything has Fine Aim or a Scope.
so i was offering to show proof of my claims. i don't think i was the one getting my jimmies rustled.

I'm not sure if this has been fixed or not, but punchthrough causes even hitscan weapons to count as two hits. Also multishot DOES count toward your counter, meaning that a if the punchthrough thing holds up, one shot can get 4 points of the combo counter.

[taiiat]

1 minute ago, Rehtael7 said:

I'm not sure if this has been fixed or not, but punchthrough causes even hitscan weapons to count as two hits. Also multishot DOES count toward your counter, meaning that a if the punchthrough thing holds up, one shot can get 4 points of the combo counter.

yes, those factors do apply. you still need to hit more than one Enemy to get to Tier1 though.
if there happens to be another Enemy in front or behind of your intended target you can get Tier1 on your second shot - but you still need to shoot again to get the bonus.

and this then assumes that the Enemy has enough Health that you didn't Kill it on the first shot.
which will certainly happen if the Enemy is high enough Level, yes. but is pretty unlikely if we base around say Lv60, as the game still works there. unlike 80-100 where most of the game mechanics fall apart.

Edited May 2, 2016 by taiiat

[Rehtael7]

1 minute ago, taiiat said:

yes, those factors do apply. you still need to hit more than one Enemy to get to Tier1 though.
if there happens to be another Enemy in front or behind of your intended target you can get Tier1 on your second shot - but you still need to shoot again to get the bonus.

and this then assumes that the Enemy has enough Health that you didn't Kill it on the first shot.

I meant punchthrough granting two points on a single target. It may have been patched out though. But it did mean that you could get 8 points from 1 shot if you hit 2 targets.

[MokutoBunshi]

Powerful

 

]\'[

[Zerga-08]

Lever action? Pfff, I want a bolt action with no scope. Kinda like the Grinlok, but with a bolt.

[Rehtael7]

Just now, Zerga-08 said:

Lever action? Pfff, I want a bolt action with no scope. Kinda like the Grinlok, but with a bolt.

That would be effectively the exact same thing.

[AdunSaveMe]

Just now, Rehtael7 said:

That would be effectively the exact same thing.

Except significantly less cool.