Genetic Stability - Is it fun?

[ReshyShira]

Hello, I've been wondering this for a long time, but why is Genetic Stability a thing?  What purpose does it serve in the game?  And probably most importantly, does it make the game more fun by existing?  I want to know the community's thoughts on this because as far as I can tell from my own experience, it seems highly out of place to me, an irrelevant health mechanic on an underpowered companion.

[Zeyez]

is not fun, but lore wise, explain things like how imperfected genetic manipulation can bring some problems, since we used the feral adapted ones to make our kubrows, that used to be domesticable by reversing the changes maded by time

kavats will suffer the same things, especially, because the concept to make it is basically: scan (to get some DNA templates) and inject on kubrow egg

 

but if the kubrows are underpowered (and is), is another question

[YasaiTsume]

It's meant to be a sort of "pet feeding" for the futuristic style of the game.

It gives the player a more indepth role play of a pet's master I guess?


Truth be told, the costs are too steep for new players, and new players should not dabble too much into companions without researching first.

And no, just because a Kubrow does not suck up loot and requires pet upkeep doesn't mean it is underpowered.

Kubrows are the ones that will last deep into long missions, way longer than when a sentinel would've died 3 times over and be dead for good.

 

[TheBright888]

I put like 6 forma into my kubrow and every time I log out of the game and dont put it in stasis, I feel afraid im not gonna be playing for a few days and it dies.

And then on top of that kubrows dont have vacuum so for farming they pretty much suck.

 

Kubrows need a buff.

Right now its barely worth the hassle to have one.

Edited May 3, 2016 by TheBright888

[EmptyDevil]

Kubrows are not under powered at all. 

[MopUpCrewman]

2 minutes ago, TheBright888 said:

I put like 6 forma into my kubrow and every time I log out of the game and dont put it in stasis, I feel afraid im not gonna be playing for a few days and it dies

Get the upgrade. It will automatically put your Kubrow in stasis when it starts getting bad along with other perks.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

It takes three full weeks for a kubrow to die, and nearly two months if you have the advanced incubator. Three third-tier missions gets you 75k credits, which will last you two weeks.

At worst, it's an inconvenience for new players. For anyone with access to Ceres or Pluto, it's barely a drop in the bucket. Kubrows have plenty of survivability, if you mod them to suit your frame. It's sentinels who desperately need a buff.

I see your point, though. With maximum loyalty and stability, kubrows are murder machines even in T4. But I don't think they're so OP as to warrant decaying until death...

I still remember when my first kubrow died. Came back after three months, saw a message that Val had passed away. @(*()$ devastated me. Had no idea that was possible.

[TheBright888]

5 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

Kubrows are not under powered at all. 

Noting compares to vacuum.

Even if my Kubrow could one shot lvl 80 enemies, vacuum is still objectively better in almost any late game situation.

vacuum gives you energy, loot, life support, safes time, optimizes movement.

In a 70mins solo T4S I always pick carrier over my 6 forma kubrow.

[--F--NerevarCM]

7 minutes ago, TheBright888 said:

Noting compares to vacuum.

Even if my Kubrow could one shot lvl 80 enemies, vacuum is still objectively better in almost any late game situation.

vacuum gives you energy, loot, life support, safes time, optimizes movement.

In a 70mins solo T4S I always pick carrier over my 6 forma kubrow.

And how much of this 70 mins your Carrier is alive? Because my Raksa stays alive when a Carrier can't survive a Bombarder rocket.

[EmptyDevil]

1 minute ago, TheBright888 said:

Noting compares to vacuum.

Even if my Kubrow could one shot lvl 80 enemies, vacuum is still objectively better in almost any late game situation.

vacuum gives you energy, loot, life support, safes time, optimizes movement.

In a 70mins solo T4S I always pick carrier over my 6 forma kubrow.

When was i comparing a Kubrow's capability to Vacuum?

I disagree entirely with what i highlighted in red. Kubrow's contribute more than just picking up loot, which i could do myself IMO. Vacuum is nothing more than a nice convenience that shouldn't even be tied to one companion. Vacuum should be a universal mod for companions, so that DE can give Carrier a more combat-oriented power as a replacement. 

[GrimAtrament]

12 minutes ago, TheBright888 said:

Noting compares to vacuum.

Even if my Kubrow could one shot lvl 80 enemies, vacuum is still objectively better in almost any late game situation.

vacuum gives you energy, loot, life support, safes time, optimizes movement.

In a 70mins solo T4S I always pick carrier over my 6 forma kubrow.

in my opinion carrier  for lazy people helios is better than carrier 

just my opinion not trying to offend any one

Edited May 3, 2016 by hazerddex

[TheBright888]

3 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

And how much of this 70 mins your Carrier is alive? Because my Raksa stays alive when a Carrier can't survive a Bombarder rocket.

Naramon

[TheBright888]

17 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

When was i comparing a Kubrow's capability to Vacuum?

I disagree entirely with what i highlighted in red. Kubrow's contribute more than just picking up loot, which i could do myself IMO. Vacuum is nothing more than a nice convenience that shouldn't even be tied to one companion. Vacuum should be a universal mod for companions, so that DE can give Carrier a more combat-oriented power as a replacement. 

Well then you obviously never did a T4S solo over 60 mins.

Every second counts. Having to jump and run to get that one life support that carrier could have vacuumed can get you killed. Every second you spend running and picking up is a second you dont spend kiling and keeping up life support.

 

I'm talking about late game not some casual sortie run^^

 

Kubrows are ok for running general missions where you dont care about farming or being efficient. Missions where you can go afk for a minute and survive^^ But when it comes to the part of warframe that requires skill and is not just an afk farm, then vacuum is currently the best option bare none, because it scales infinitely and saves lots of time in situations where time is of the essence.

Edited May 3, 2016 by TheBright888

[EmptyDevil]

6 minutes ago, TheBright888 said:

Well then you obviously never did a T4S solo over 60 mins.

Well you obviously don't know what you're talking about because i certainly have.

8 minutes ago, TheBright888 said:

Every second counts. Having to jump and run to get that one life support that carrier could have vacuumed can get you killed. Every second you spend running and picking up is a second you dont spend kiling and keeping up life support.

If you're having that hard of a time in it, maybe you should reconsider your loadout. I have absolutely no trouble keeping life support up, especially considering the capsules drop at my feet because i melee everything. The Kubrow provides very useful CC.

11 minutes ago, TheBright888 said:

I'm talking about late game not some casual sortie run^^

Kubrows are ok for running general missions where you dont care about farming or being efficient. Missions where you can go afk for a minute and survive^^

Go Epeen somewhere else. You're trying way too hard to make a point by assuming what type of missions i do or use as a reference.

[TheBright888]

2 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

Well you obviously don't know what you're talking about because i certainly have.

If you're having that hard of a time in it, maybe you should reconsider your loadout. I have absolutely no trouble keeping life support up, especially considering the capsules drop at my feet because i melee everything. The Kubrow provides very useful CC.

Go Epeen somewhere else. You're trying way too hard to make a point by assuming what type of missions i do or use as a reference.

No its just obvious to me that you don't do late game missions, since you claim that Kubrows are useful there :D

No assumptions needed.

[paragasu]

future dog are breed to no need of pooping...the down side of this however is that the dog will literally melt if they are fed the futuristic dog feed

and batdog is not underpower...expl huras > ghost

Edited May 3, 2016 by paragasu

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

If I may provide a counterpoint, Vacuum is almost universally superior to anything that any other companion can do, UNLESS you rely primarily on guns or Zenurik. Here's why.

Vacuum is not a convenience. It is the difference between a caster build being stable or completely impotent whenever a dangerous enemy (especially a parasite eximus) shows up. In the time it takes to stop combat and grab two energy orbs, you could have already had those orbs and applied lockdown or a buff to prevent said bombard from murdering your - or your sentinel's - face.

The two key differences between Vacuum and other companion abilities are that Vacuum is not conditional, and gives immediate access to an important resource. Sahasa kubrows are extremely helpful, but unless your kill density is low, Carrier is going to get you that energy ten times faster. If your kill density is that low, then either you're not going to last long anyway, or you're on a low level mission so your choice of companion is moot.

I'm speaking from extensive experience with low-efficiency caster builds. Vacuum + Zenurik is required in order for these to function. I dislike relying on weapons. I also disagree that Vacuum is broken. Vacuum works exactly as it should. The problem is how limited all the other companion abilities are. They can't be influenced, so they need to be dependable. But DE seems to think that would make them too powerful, so in any situation where they would genuinely be needed, they're already dead. Kubrows included, although at least they have a bleedout state (not that it matters past 40m T4 sur).

Sentinels and kubrows both need a major buff. Sentinels need an auto-repair mechanic, whereby they return a short time after death. Kubrows need shorter cast times for their abilities. Howl is a nuisance in low-level missions, and just gets kubrows killed by distant bombards/heavies in high-level ones.

 

*cough* But I digress. The OP was asking why genetic stability exists in the first place. A valid question. I'm not sure what is being balanced by the mechanic. It appears to exist purely to get you attached to your pets. I don't necessarily have a problem with that, but those who would benefit most from the advanced incubator are new players, and the crafting requirements are perplexingly harsh for them. IMO, the advanced incubator should represent the default functions of the incubator.

[ReshyShira]

1 hour ago, Zeyez said:

is not fun, but lore wise, explain things like how imperfected genetic manipulation can bring some problems, since we used the feral adapted ones to make our kubrows, that used to be domesticable by reversing the changes maded by time

 

That's not really a reason so much as a convenient excuse for a degrading health/feeding mechanic.  You could literally do that about anything, let's take sentinels for instance.  You gotta buy "Repair Kits" because your Sentinels have a "Wear" stat which indicates wear and tear damage on your sentinel just from general operation.  You could have a "Battery" mechanic for warframes, necessitating that in order to keep at 100% efficiency a warframe needs a new Orokin cell each day.

 

There, done, perfect justification for Sentinels to have the same stat too, right?  Same with Warframes, right?

 

No, it's just a half-hearted justification for it being there.  In-lore justification for the existence of a particular mechanic isn't a reason for the mechanic to exist in and of itself.

Edited May 3, 2016 by ReshyShira

[EmptyDevil]

Just now, TheBright888 said:

No its just obvious to me that you don't do late game missions, since you claim that Kubrows are useful there :D

No assumptions needed.

I guess i hurt you by thinking Kubrows are better than Vacuum. I wonder what would happen to you if Vacuum was universal. Can you imagine it? A revivable companion, with high damage, CC, AND reliably sucks up loot. It'd have you like:

You're comparing a single power that offers a small convenience to actual companions that do a lot more, except pick up your loot. What happens to your logic if they get Vacuum with their current traits?

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

2 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

 

That's not really a reason so much as a convenient excuse for a degrading health/feeding mechanic.  You could literally do that about anything, let's take sentinels for instance.  You gotta buy "Repair Kits" because your Sentinels have a "Wear" stat which indicates wear and tear damage on your sentinel just from general operation.  You could have a "Battery" mechanic for warframes, necessitating that in order to keep at 100% efficiency a warframe needs a new Orokin cell each day.

 

There, done, perfect justification for Sentinels to have the same stat too, right?  Same with Warframes, right?

 

No, it's just a half-hearted justification for it being there.

I wouldn't say it validates the mechanic, but he is correct in that it adds an interesting detail to the lore. Cloning is a core theme in WF, but sophisticated cloning tech died with the Orokin Empire. Corpus now reproduce normally. Grineer have severe degradation, as do kubrows. It creates an impression of just how far we've fallen.

Like I said, a questionable mechanic. But it is interesting at least.

[TheBright888]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

If I may provide a counterpoint, Vacuum is almost universally superior to anything that any other companion can do, UNLESS you rely primarily on guns or Zenurik. Here's why.

Vacuum is not a convenience. It is the difference between a caster build being stable or completely impotent whenever a dangerous enemy (especially a parasite eximus) shows up. In the time it takes to stop combat and grab two energy orbs, you could have already had those orbs and applied lockdown or a buff to prevent said bombard from murdering your - or your sentinel's - face.

Agreed. If you want to min max your late game there is no alternative to vacuum. (or at least I have not found a build yet)

Excellent example.

No vacuum is not broken. Its awesome and I wouldnt have it any other way, but the other companions need to at least be an option in late game in my Opinion. Right now carrier is about 3 times as useful as anything else. Its good in any mission, any situation and scales to infinity.

Edited May 3, 2016 by TheBright888

[ReshyShira]

1 minute ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

I wouldn't say it validates the mechanic, but he is correct in that it adds an interesting detail to the lore. Cloning is a core theme in WF, but sophisticated cloning tech died with the Orokin Empire. Corpus now reproduce normally. Grineer have severe degradation, as do kubrows. It creates an impression of just how far we've fallen.

Like I said, a questionable mechanic. But it is interesting at least.

Kubrow exist without genetic defects in wild populations on earth as far as we know, I find it hard to believe that no one can selectively breed them (like we did with real-world dogs) for docility.  The genetic defects come from the "domestication," for whatever reason, and somehow it still degrades despite it being fixed with expensive specialized kits which makes it less of a genetic problem and more like they have to be fed. 

 

The in-lore justification is fairly flimsy at best.  It still doesn't solve the problem or answer as to why the problem is there in the first place.

 

If DE wanted to show how genetic defects affect the population or what not they could easily make a system where the Kubrow "degrade" in appearance unless you upkeep them with stabilization kits.  Shows the cosmetic and in-lore effect without compromising the mechanics.

[PublikDomain]

I really dislike how DE has chosen to handle pets, and it really just comes down to the presentation. Some food for thought:

• Our puppies are genetic freaks that would die if not for our constant genetic tinkering. Some proud creatures they are.
  • Why can't I have a genetically stable companion?
  • DE really ought to let us breed Hyekka since we're treat our war-beasts no different than the Grineer.
• In order to obtain a Kubrow we: go genociding, smash a bunch of their nests, steal an egg (but only one at a time, any more than that would be rude!), tinker with it in our mad-science room, shove it in a bubble and zap it with microwaves, and toss the pups out the airlock when they don't cook right.
  • Why can't we go into the woods and tame a wild Kubrow and then breed them au naturel? Why we gotta be mad scientists?
• We feed our pups Soylent Green. Soylent Green is PEOPLE!
  • Why can't I go hunting on Earth and kill a space buffalo for meat? I'd love to have that kind of bonding time with my dog.

And now with Kavats the best guess we have is that we're going to make our kitties my mad-sciencing.... wait for it.... dog eggs. Dog Egg → ??? → Cat Egg. They aren't even the same species.

Know what'd be cool?

In order to obtain a Kavat:

1. Get some of those pherliac pods. Just do it, I'll explain later.
2. Play Infested missions on a planet
3. Since Kavats hunt the Infested, you'll run into a Kavat occasionally in your mission.
4. Cat noises! Quick, scan it with your scanner!
5. Plop down a pod.
6. Man, those pods must be tasty. Kitty comes over to investigate and snacks on a pod.
7. Do this X times, slowly gaining the trust of your Kavat.
8. After a while, the Kavat decides to follow you to extraction.
9. You name your cat, toss out the genetic freaks, and go on your merry way.

• Different worlds yield different chances to meet a certain breed and certain color/pattern.
• The cat you scan and befriend lets you see if you want that particular color/pattern/breed.
• Starting to tame a cat locks it into that world/node. You have X days between feeding sessions to keep the cat interested, after that it unlocks and disappears.

Upkeep?

1. Pherliac pods are tasty but are no substitute for a complete diet.
2. Let's go hunting! Go to an Infested mission.
3. Every Infested your kitty kills gives them a little bit of food.
4. Hungry kitty? Go hunting. The higher level the enemies, the more it feeds.

• Maybe there's a special Infested enemy type that's really good to eat that we have to hunt. Maybe they only eat Juggernauts?

Breeding?

1. Obtain a boy cat and a girl cat and put them in the special cat room we're probably getting.
2. ???
3. New kitten.
4. Leave your kitten with it's mom for a few days, then take it hunting during a repeatable quest to grow it into an adult.

Big, bang, boom. Obtaining your pet has meaning. Upkeep has meaning. Breeding and raising your pet has meaning.

[TheBright888]

Oh I almost forgot about this

Now carrier is not only 3x better, but 6x better than any Kubrow.

Edited May 3, 2016 by TheBright888

[GrimAtrament]

why are we even talking about kubrow it all about the kavat

8 minutes ago, TheBright888 said:

Oh I almost forgot about this

Now carrier is not only 3x better, but 6x better than any Kubrow.

my helios is still better :)