Tonkor Balancing (Nerf) discussion..

[TheBrsrkr]

9 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

To you maybe but you don't speak for me.

I see no issue with it. So then why would a nerf be good for me?

Nerfs benefit the health of the game, not individual players. 

[WARLOCKE]

3 minutes ago, Vesiga said:

Well considering this game is pretty Horde-like. Single target will never be the most desirable. I mean... if you look at snipers. 
nerfing all AoE though, you're looking at a wildfire that wont get put out unless they roll it back.

dont get me wrong; Snipetron Vandal, Dex Syb, select few shotguns, and such are among my fave weapons. 
 but full on cutting a open wound into AoE things and throwing in salt isn't very helpful 

not everyone has it, nor has bothered to build with it yet. 

People will build the the sobek, find out its trawsh tier and that acid shells just brings it up to average tier, then go back to the spamcor. And yes, AoE needs to ravaged in all its forms for the good of the game. Salt be damned.

[undernown]

1 hour ago, Alma_Elma said:

To be fair, grenade launchers are meant to be used for bombarding your enemies from a safe distance, not using it as an assault weapon at close range. If you blow yourself up, you probably aren't using it as intended.

Yes in the real world that's how it works. But long range fights are scarce in warframe and there are a lot of factors that make the explosive projectiles behave in an unpredictable/unwanted manner.( players or enemies jumping in front of your squad. Powers that change the flight speed and flight pattern. And warframe's tiles are fairly cluttered.)

I understand you like realism, but gameplay enjoyment comes first.

[Vesiga]

Just now, WARLOCKE said:

People will build the the sobek, find out its trawsh tier and that acid shells just brings it up to average tier, then go back to the spamcor. And yes, AoE needs to ravaged in all its forms for the good of the game. Salt be damned.

idkkk its a pretty fun gun with the mod. depending how you use it and mod it, it does fine up to lv 80. 

that wouldnt really be for the good of the game. - balance on them, yes, but nerfing them into the ground and t-bagging it isn't ahahaha

[WARLOCKE]

Just now, undernown said:

Yes in the real world that's how it works. But long range fights are scarce in warframe and there are a lot of factors that make the explosive projectiles behave in an unpredictable/unwanted manner.( players or enemies jumping in front of your squad. Powers that change the flight speed and flight pattern. And warframe's tiles are fairly cluttered.)

I understand you like realism, but gameplay enjoyment comes first.

Whos enjoyment, yours or mine.

[Vesiga]

1 minute ago, WARLOCKE said:

Whos enjoyment, yours or mine.

thats like a double edge sword there to ask. 

you want your enjoyment. 
they want theirs. 

no one cares about the other. 

someone will be hurt about it. 

 

[WARLOCKE]

3 minutes ago, Vesiga said:

thats like a double edge sword there to ask. 

you want your enjoyment. 
they want theirs. 

no one cares about the other. 

someone will be hurt about it. 

 

And that right there , it becomes even more important to look at the overall health of the game and not just individuals enjoyment. I mean, some people enjoy cheating and making racist comments. But thats not a good thing, for the game or their face :D.

[Vesiga]

1 minute ago, WARLOCKE said:

And that right there , it becomes even more important to look at the overall health of the game and not just individuals enjoyment. I mean, some people enjoy cheating and making racist comments. But thats not a good thing, for the game or their face :D.

If ANYTHING at all does happen to AoE weapons, as long as they're still in the fun category. I couldn't care less. 

and the fun area for me is at least lv 60 - 100. It doesnt have to one shot, but it cant be taking more than 2 clips either v: 

[Kangarad]

Little thing for thought.

If all AoE weapons could do self damage would you use them? even if they remain superiour at wiping out rooms?

What if your AoE weapons had a safety feature and could not explode when in range to other tenno to avoid killing friendlys?
 

[Vesiga]

Just now, Kangarad said:

Little thing for thought.

If all AoE weapons could do self damage would you use them? even if they remain superiour at wiping out rooms?

What if your AoE weapons had a safety feature and could not explode when in range to other tenno to avoid killing friendlys?
 

hahaha all i picture is adhesive blast so tonkor stays on the floor when i shoot at it then bullet jumping away so it can detonate being like "cool guys dont look at explosionssss" 

[(PSN)Quo_Tee]

Lets look back at an old friend of ours, The Nightwatch Reaver and his Tonkor Wraith.

We can all agree that his weapon was OP as it could one shot no matter what frame you played, likewise could be said for the Tonkor in it's current state

[Currilicious]

1 hour ago, WARLOCKE said:

Because it would force you to branch out to other weapons to solve problems of enemies getting in your grill. You know, the entire point of the mastery system, I know it doesnt play out that way, mainly due to draco and shared XP. But thats the intent. Theres a extra credits vid on youtube that explains why crutchs are bad for gameplay. If i wasnt so lazy id go find it.

That's the thing. I am trying out weapons and keeping those I like. I don't need any motivation to "branch out". So where does nerfing something I find fun leave me?

I gain nothing from it.

 

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Nerfs benefit the health of the game, not individual players. 

Well ain't that rich. You mean when I have fun in the game enough to give money to DE isn't healthy for the game?

[TheBrsrkr]

Just now, Currilicious said:

Well ain't that rich. You mean when I have fun in the game enough to give money to DE isn't healthy for the game?

One player doesn't pay as much as three would. 

[Currilicious]

Just now, TheBrsrkr said:

One player doesn't pay as much as three would. 

Yeah so you know for a fact that I'm the only one affected? Wow.

This means everyone else not active is the forums should be shafted cuz you say so?

Good to know what type of person I'm dealing with here.

 

[TheBrsrkr]

Just now, Currilicious said:

Yeah so you know for a fact that I'm the only one affected? Wow.

I was talking about the squad you're playing with,nit you personally. 

 

1 minute ago, Currilicious said:

.This means everyone else not active is the forums should be shafted cuz you say so?

If they think that their personal fun is more important not only than the players they're forcing out of the game, but also the health of the game they're playing, then yes. They have none of my sympathy. 

 

2 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

Good to know what type of person I'm dealing with here.

I'm not here to be liked, I'm here to give feedback. If I want to be liked, I head to Off Topic, because that's what off topic is for. 

[Currilicious]

5 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

I was talking about the squad you're playing with,nit you personally. 

 

If they think that their personal fun is more important not only than the players they're forcing out of the game, but also the health of the game they're playing, then yes. They have none of my sympathy. 

 

I'm not here to be liked, I'm here to give feedback. If I want to be liked, I head to Off Topic, because that's what off topic is for. 

 

If it is an issue of incompatible gaming preferences, why not address that issue specifically instead of a blanket nerf that affects everyone?

Like option to host your own games with weapon/frame filter?

And, you are also doing the same to others by nerfing disregarding how others feel about it. I know you have no sympathy towards those with differing opinions. How about adding hypocrisy to that list too.

 

Edited May 14, 2016 by Currilicious

[Generalsherman]

In my opinion you could drop it's crit chance or damage. Self damage ruins it's rocket jump so that doesn't seem right. If you lower the crit chance you lower the insane damage while still leaving most of the weapon intact.

It may not be game shattering but the Tonkor does need a balance pass. When you run into a Sortie 3 and see nothing but Tonkors everywhere something is off.

[TheBrsrkr]

Just now, Currilicious said:

If it is an issue of incompatible gaming preferences, why not address that issue specifically instead of a blanket nerf that affects everyone? 

Because it's not an issue of incompatible gaming preferences. It's an issue of one person being able to play with a broken, overpowered weapon, and everyone else being forced to play around the person with the broken, overpowered weapon. No one prefers to join a game and do nothing. It's not an issue with explosives, it's an issue with the Tonkor. Why create an entire system designed to do nothing but exclude the broken weapon when you could just fix the broken weapon? Do you think DE has infinite time and resources? 

 

3 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

And, you are also doing the same to others by nerfing disregarding how others feel about it. 

How you feel about a weapon  says nothing about whether the weapon is balanced or not. It does not affect it's stats. It does not affect the people who use it. It does not affect the people who don't use it. It does not affect the weapons it excludes. It doesn't affect any system in Warframe at all. Why is it relevant to the discussion? The correct answer is: it isn't. I am discussing what it does, nit how I feel about it. You like it. I don't. Neither of those statements is relevant. 

 

7 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

  I know you have no sympathy towards those with differing opinions. How lets add hypocrisy to that list too.

If people think they're so important that their personal enjoyment is more important than anything else in this game, that is their opinion to hold. And it is wrong, selfish and cruel. Just because it is your opinion does not protect it from discussion and dismissal on a public forum meant for discussion. 

[Currilicious]

24 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Because it's not an issue of incompatible gaming preferences. It's an issue of one person being able to play with a broken, overpowered weapon, and everyone else being forced to play around the person with the broken, overpowered weapon. No one prefers to join a game and do nothing. It's not an issue with explosives, it's an issue with the Tonkor. Why create an entire system designed to do nothing but exclude the broken weapon when you could just fix the broken weapon? Do you think DE has infinite time and resources? 

 

Then it is an incompatibility issue.

If tomorrow DE makes a feature that allow people to host their own games and define what type of weapons are allowed to join their game, would you still have this issue of "join a game and do nothing"?

 

24 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

How you feel about a weapon  says nothing about whether the weapon is balanced or not. It does not affect it's stats. It does not affect the people who use it. It does not affect the people who don't use it. It does not affect the weapons it excludes. It doesn't affect any system in Warframe at all. Why is it relevant to the discussion? The correct answer is: it isn't. I am discussing what it does, nit how I feel about it. You like it. I don't. Neither of those statements is relevant. 

If people think they're so important that their personal enjoyment is more important than anything else in this game, that is their opinion to hold. And it is wrong, selfish and cruel. Just because it is your opinion does not protect it from discussion and dismissal on a public forum meant for discussion. 

The point of a game is to have fun. This is not the University of Warframe.

You are saying because you don't like how some random blokes play their game, you want to have options removed from everyone regardless of the negative impact on our game-play experience.

So which is the "wrong, selfish and cruel" party here, pray tell?

Edited May 14, 2016 by Currilicious

[TheBrsrkr]

Just now, Currilicious said:

Then it is an incompatibility issue.

If tomorrow DE makes a feature that allow people to host their own games and define what type of weapon is allowed to join their game, would you still have this issue of "join a game and do nothing"??

And if DE was to nerf the Tonkor, would this system be necessary? Tell me which is less difficult, reducing the stats of one weapon, or creating a system that scans the profiles of every person online to check if they have the Tonkor equipped, then exclude them from your matchmaking in both first and third party matchmaking? Systems such as these do not appear out of nowhere. This is also not a problem with launchers in general, it is a problem with the Tonkor. Punishing all launchers for the one overpowered one isn't fair to those who use the others. 

17 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

The point of a game is to have fun. This is not the University of Warframe.

The point of a feedback and discussion forum is to provide constructive feedback and discussion. This is the feedback forum of Warframe. 

6 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

You are saying because you don't like how some random blokes play their game, 

Did I not just explain to you, in detail, how what I like or what you like are completely irrelevant to anything the Tonkor does? It's not because I don't like what those people do. I don't know or care to know about those people, and they should share the same sentiment  with me,because it means nothing. We aren't talking about the players, we're talking about the Tonkor. 

 

9 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

, you want to have options removed from these people regardless of the negative impact on their game-play experience.

If your idea of fun is taking away the fun from other players, this will have a negative impact on you. If your idea of fun is staying in the game much, much longer than the developers intended for you to, this will have a negative impact on you.  If you have a list of people who care, scratch me off. Fun is entirely subjective, which is why I'm just as important as you when you say you like the Tonkor and I say I hate it. This is why it's irrelevant to the discussion. Participation is not subjective. Weapon damage and usability is not subjective. Effects on enemies are not subjective. These are the things we are talking about. The Tonkor and indeed every weapon in the game is affected by these systems. The Tonkor negatively affects other players, as outlined elsewhere in the thread and in the 47 page thread in the feedback section no one has bothered to read at this point .  

 

17 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

 

So which is the "wrong, selfish and cruel" party here, pray tell?

Still you. 

[Currilicious]

9 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

And if DE was to nerf the Tonkor, would this system be necessary? Tell me which is less difficult, reducing the stats of one weapon, or creating a system that scans the profiles of every person online to check if they have the Tonkor equipped, then exclude them from your matchmaking in both first and third party matchmaking? Systems such as these do not appear out of nowhere. This is also not a problem with launchers in general, it is a problem with the Tonkor. Punishing all launchers for the one overpowered one isn't fair to those who use the others. 

The point of a feedback and discussion forum is to provide constructive feedback and discussion. This is the feedback forum of Warframe. 

Did I not just explain to you, in detail, how what I like or what you like are completely irrelevant to anything the Tonkor does? It's not because I don't like what those people do. I don't know or care to know about those people, and they should share the same sentiment  with me,because it means nothing. We aren't talking about the players, we're talking about the Tonkor. 

 

If your idea of fun is taking away the fun from other players, this will have a negative impact on you. If your idea of fun is staying in the game much, much longer than the developers intended for you to, this will have a negative impact on you.  If you have a list of people who care, scratch me off. Fun is entirely subjective, which is why I'm just as important as you when you say you like the Tonkor and I say I hate it. This is why it's irrelevant to the discussion. Participation is not subjective. Weapon damage and usability is not subjective. Effects on enemies are not subjective. These are the things we are talking about. The Tonkor and indeed every weapon in the game is affected by these systems. The Tonkor negatively affects other players, as outlined elsewhere in the thread and in the 47 page thread in the feedback section no one has bothered to read at this point .  

 

Still you. 

So basically, rather than an inclusive amicable solution, you would prefer to force the game to your liking, even if it screws over everyone else.

'Right then.

Well I'm quoting this, just in case the developers do come in here, though unlikely. The hypocrisy and self-entitlement here is exactly why developers should just stick to their statistics on which mechanics players adopt and prefer, rather than listen to drivel from people like you.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Currilicious

[TheBrsrkr]

Just now, Currilicious said:

So basically, rather than an inclusive amicable solution, 

What you meant to say was, in a way that I get to keep my insanely broken weapon and waste development time, that forces penalties on weapons that do not deserve it, 

 

1 minute ago, Currilicious said:

would prefer to force the game to your liking, even if it screws over everyone else.

What you meant to say was, I would fix the broken weapon that prevents players from playing around it instead of creating a band aid system that simply adds another layer of frustration to matchmaking while not solving the issue at all,even though people like it, which I know is irrelevant since it was explained to me twice now by this person. 

 

4 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

'Right then.

Wrong in almost every regard. 

4 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

.Well I'm quoting this, just in case the developers do come in here, though unlikely. The hypocrisy and self-entitlement here is exactly why developers should just stick to their statistics on which mechanics players adopt and prefer than listen to drivel from people like you.

And now we dissolve into petty insults and rampant projection in place of arguments you do not have. Good job. 

[Currilicious]

2 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

What you meant to say was, in a way that I get to keep my insanely broken weapon and waste development time, that forces penalties on weapons that do not deserve it, 

 

What you meant to say was, I would fix the broken weapon that prevents players from playing around it instead of creating a band aid system that simply adds another layer of frustration to matchmaking while not solving the issue at all,even though people like it, which I know is irrelevant since it was explained to me twice now by this person. 

 

Wrong in almost every regard. 

And now we dissolve into petty insults and rampant projection in place of arguments you do not have. Good job. 

You're right I shouldn't stoop to your level.

What you mean is your preferences should be how the game is developed. Nevermind, how the rest of us is impacted.

If it isn't kosher by you, it should be removed.

I think I understand your stance enough.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Currilicious

[TheBrsrkr]

Just now, Currilicious said:

You're right I shouldn't stoop to your level.

More insults? Whatever shall I do? My feelings are under attack! 

 

1 minute ago, Currilicious said:

What you mean is your preferences should be how the game is developed. 

I said what I meant. You're reading something I didn't say. People should not be able to negatively affect other people's experiences with their weapons, and overpowered weapons cause problems for the health and longevity of games. 

 

3 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

. Nevermind, how the rest of us is impacted.

Oh no, I know how you'll be impacted. Your overpowered flavor of the day will not be overpowered anymore, and you'll move on because it's not overpowered. Not because you like the mechanics of the weapon, because you like the excessive damage the weapon does. That's all that matters to you. You like being OP. I just don't care. How you feel about it is irrelevant. 

 

6 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

If it isn't kosher by you, it should be removed.

I don't know what kosher means, but if it prevents other players from participating in public or semi private games then yes, it should be removed. 

 

8 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

I think I understand your stance enough.

Pretty sure you don't. 

[Currilicious]

7 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

I said what I meant. You're reading something I didn't say. People should not be able to negatively affect other people's experiences with their weapons, and overpowered weapons cause problems for the health and longevity of games. 

The health and longevity of the game will be a moot point when the game is made unfun due to nerfs.

 

7 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Oh no, I know how you'll be impacted. Your overpowered flavor of the day will not be overpowered anymore, and you'll move on because it's not overpowered. Not because you like the mechanics of the weapon, because you like the excessive damage the weapon does. That's all that matters to you. You like being OP. I just don't care. How you feel about it is irrelevant.

Hence the selfish, hypocritical self-entitlement I'm talking about.

When you have an issue with game mechanics you go up in arms about it. Despite various solutions that do not impact others negatively, you prefer a "solution" that would suit your preferences totally even at the expense of others. And thus, inflicting the same grievances unto others.

To which, I would say, neither do I care for your disdain for anything other than your own wants.

 

7 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

I don't know what kosher means, but if it prevents other players from participating in public or semi private games then yes, it should be removed. 
 

Sure, if you get to decide what gets removed and what stays, but you don't.

So live with it.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2016 by Currilicious