U19 will be a turning point... or will not.

[DeadlyPeanutt]

sooner or later, every player faces the question: do you enjoy playing the missions in WF even if you got NO rewards/drops/resources? 

fwiw, if OP has been playing the game for 3 years, i can't imagine that a prime version of vauban would make that much difference.  

for veteran players who have most weapons/frames, extreme grinds only effect you if you choose to grind. 

[FishNeedles]

15 hours ago, CapAllan said:

Thought I'd just drop this here.

 

LOL, that was @(*()$ awesome.  Kudos to whoever made that.

[DatDarkOne]

 

15 hours ago, kiteohatto said:

It wouldn't be fair on those who choose to pay if everything new was easily available week 1 to those who don't play much and don't wish to pay.

You have to make sacrifices somewhere, at the end of the day....

If you play less and don't pay = you don't get latest stuff quick, but you DO get it eventually.

If you play less and pay = you get stuff right away. You sacrifice gametime for IRL grind(work) to bypass ingame grind.

If you play a lot and don't wish to pay = you get stuff relatively quick,  as long as you have made some preparations beforehand.(having some forethought and spending your time wisely).

 

Kiteohatto has managed to convey my thoughts on this discussion.  In the small amount of time that I do have to play, I have seen and had access to numerous Nitain alerts in the last few weeks.  More than enough to completely make Vauban P.  

Now here's the question you have to ask yourself.  Would you still pay for something if you knew that you could get it for free by waiting a week?  With that said, I don't see an issue at all.  No, I don't need anyone to try to explain it to me because I can see things clearly for myself.  My perspective is someone who has paid for stuff because I have a full time job.  Would I do that same if I had more free time?  Maybe, maybe not.  Do I wish I had more free time to play as often as some others?  Yes.  Do I dislike them because they have more free time to play than I do? No

Should this game ever become something that I don't like, then I can easily just stop playing it.  Maybe that is the Old School Gamer in me thinking.  Everyone is entitled to their opinions.  These are mine.  Please respect them as I do yours.   

[cnlu]

if you dont have money for PA, then DE must ask for something that is equal to its value: your time...

[Judgebanks]

Probably not, we're in for another Year of Quality.

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

After spending 200+ hours on The Division lately, I feel like Vauban Prime grind is very, very, very, very soft and enjoyable....

[matto]

47 minutes ago, cnlu said:

if you dont have money for PA, then DE must ask for something that is equal to its value: your time...

Would work if the amount of time to get Vauban Prime was determined by a quest or something. But in this system it could require 4 missions or X mission. X having a probability to never happen. The nature of RNG.

Also, the amount of farming the ressources is not the same for an older player or a newer player.

So not really...

Edited May 19, 2016 by matto

[achromos]

41 minutes ago, matto said:

Would work if the amount of time to get Vauban Prime was determined by a quest or something. But in this system it could require 4 missions or X mission. X having a probability to never happen. The nature of RNG.

Also, the amount of farming the ressources is not the same for an older player or a newer player.

So not really...

 

The thing people don't realize, you can buy all or any missing pieces of this in Trade market.  You don't have to spend any of your real-life money either, sell the prime parts you get while farming, or go and farm rare mods elsewhere (kela de thaym mods are currently hot?) and sell those.  So it isn't always a "Require X Mission" without guarantees if you are smart about it and don't want to spend irl money AND will spend less time then others (given their RNG getting vauban prime is bad).

 

Also, word of note... probably will want to wait for Vauban primes price to drop in the market...  Give it a week or two unless you want to pay the blood price.

 

Edit:

 

On your 'newer' to 'older' player thing.  I'd like to simply say:  duh.  Not only do veteran players have more power via mods and choice in weapon/warframe, ect.  They also have knowledge too.  I wouldn't expect newer players to be jumping around with full prime gear, primed mods, all maxed out on day one.   Yet the way some people say it... that would be a crime not to be at end game status within 5 hours.

Edited May 19, 2016 by achromos

[matto]

23 minutes ago, achromos said:

...

Ok. Whatever. In the end it will still require X missions to acquire X prime parts (or valuable items) than you will sell at X plats spending a certain amount of time using the trade chat instead of playing. It's just another method than just going straight for the Vauban's parts in the void.

Anyway, that conversation doesn't interest me at all. For a simple reason : people read the thread and think it is all about complaining that Vauban requires a huge amount of farming or Vauban's requirements or the PA existence. While it is about the state of the playerbase (and the grind) at a specific moment, and what is expected for U19 to change, or also a change towards more aggressive F2P techniques.

Again, the Vauban crisis came at a point when the community was already tired by a lot of events and grindwalls. It's all about saying "keep your promise, or it won't get any better" and "balance the grind with another type of content".

Edited May 19, 2016 by matto

[achromos]

2 minutes ago, matto said:

Ok. Whatever. In the end it will still require X missions to acquire X prime parts (or valuable items) than you will sell at X plats spending a certain amount of time using the trade chat instead of playing. It's just another method than just going straight for the Vauban's parts in the void.

Anyway, that conversation doesn't interest me at all. For a simple reason : people read the thread and think it is all about complaining that Vauban requires a huge amount of farming or Vauban's requirements or the PA existence. While it is about the state of the playerbase (and the grind) at a specific moment, and what is expected for U19 to change.

Again, the Vauban crisis came at a point when the community was already tired by a lot of events and grindwalls. It's all about saying "keep your promise, or it won't get any better" and "balance the grind with another type of content".

 

The question I have for you though... is do players NEED vauban prime in day one?  He only has slightly upgraded stats and a sleek look.  It's not that big a deal imo.  However, for sake of the conversation, I do agree that the grind 'is' getting slightly out of hand in some areas only because the whole game feels... samey.  At the end of the day anyway.

[matto]

27 minutes ago, achromos said:

 

The question I have for you though... is do players NEED vauban prime in day one?  He only has slightly upgraded stats and a sleek look.  It's not that big a deal imo.  However, for sake of the conversation, I do agree that the grind 'is' getting slightly out of hand in some areas only because the whole game feels... samey.  At the end of the day anyway.

One could say they don't even need Vauban Prime to play the game.

A game that is mainly based on collecting and completion.

You said it yourself : "the whole game feels... samey".

Nothing much to do if you decide to not go after the primes.

[achromos]

5 minutes ago, matto said:

One could say they don't even need Vauban Prime to play the game.

A game that is mainly based on collecting and completion.

You said it yourself : "the whole game feels... samey".

Nothing much to do if you decide to not go after the primes.

 

Nothing much other then wait out for the big updates or replenish my resources, which I am taking my time with, or grind weapons I don't have, get mr up, etc.

 

Could also do archwing, but I'm waiting on the update to help the controls.

 

But I feel like I've done it all,  and I know what you are feeling. At least though for me it is the onset of burn out.  I usually just play other games to solve that issue and after a while I can play again.

Edited May 19, 2016 by achromos

[Zenekri]

Hi, newish player here, played around a month and half. Bought a tad of plat because i felt DE earned it.

After reading through this thread, i agree with op. Grinds and rng is fine and all, but there is a certain line to it, which i felt vauban prime has crossed. It has frankly made me question my decision to buy plat. 

Firstly, the resources required to craft vauban being more than saryn and trinity combined. What even is the reason for this? Did DE not say that they want people to stay away from loot caves? Why are they instead making it compulsory?

Secondly, after reading about all the loot dilution and void fatigue, vauban systems ended up in the dreaded t3 survival, together with the saryn, nova and ash parts. Its like they want to solve dilution with more dilution!

Personally, i have gone for 30ish t3 survival c rotations and i dont recall seeing a single prime warframe part. And there are alot of warframe parts in there. 

I was always under the impression that prime access is to reward paying players and not to punish free players. This current prime access feels much more like the latter. I hesitate to use the term dishonest, but dropping 7k oxium on the price tag while saying they want to reduce loot cave situations dont exactly match up.

Not too sure how DE can fix this without making more people angry now, but moving some loot to the other missions could be a good start, also the suggestion to lengthen nitain alert periods feel like a really good solution to the nitain problem.

Now for abit of rant.

While reading the thread, I observed something far more disturbing then DE's self destructive actions. Paying/veteran players seem to belittle and hate on the "casuals" for wanting better rng and options, not even by that much to be honest. Instead calling them variations of lazy and entitled. I kind of understand the need for exclusion. But telling them to go beat it and suck it up or even quit? Seriously?

Its fine if you guys are able to provide for all of DE's staff. But can you? You guys dont seem to understand that online games such as warframe are FUELED by casuals. Casuals are free advertisement, casuals bring more players into the game, casuals have a chance of being a paying player in the future. In short, casuals are the lifeblood of an online game, no casual = no game. For a recent example, just look at how rathuum and kela got nerfed. Long time vets have no issue clearing it, so why was it nerfed?

As of now the ungodly amount of grind is already enough to put most people off. Personally i only started playing because of college break and had the fortune of having friends give me a headstart, very nearly deciding against due to the grind. And now its supposed to get worse? 

And those of you saying people should just forget about getting the vauban prime, then for what purpose does the frame even exist? Warframe is as much a game about collection and hoarding as it is about space ninja action, maybe even more so. Recruiting chat is all about farm farm farm with a side of draco levelling. Recruitment for raids,sorties and missions make up maybe 10% of it. Another point to note is how regular vauban parts are gated behind massive rng as well.

Telling people to forget about collecting is pretty much telling them to ignore more than half the game, which if you really support DE, you should be actively against. 

That is all.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

49 minutes ago, Zenekri said:

Its fine if you guys are able to provide for all of DE's staff. But can you? You guys dont seem to understand that online games such as warframe are FUELED by casuals. Casuals are free advertisement, casuals bring more players into the game, casuals have a chance of being a paying player in the future. In short, casuals are the lifeblood of an online game, no casual = no game. For a recent example, just look at how rathuum and kela got nerfed. Long time vets have no issue clearing it, so why was it nerfed?

I'm extremely casual, and after seeing the nth Nitain alert, started to ignore them (other stuff is currently more important than another frame). In the last week the alerts were all over for potatoes and Nitain in anticipation for this new frame. DE wasn't making it difficult for people to have the items for  upgrading the frame and any new prime weapons -- two blue potatoes and one reactor BPs were available at prime time (EST). I even posted about it on my blog as an alert -- NOW'S THE TIME TO PLAY WARFRAME!

The Gift of Lotus are 24hr alerts, not 1hr, so anyone on those days had time to get them, too.

[CapAllan]

22 hours ago, p3z1 said:

Hope no one is offended by me using the term "wallet warriors." Apologies in advance.

Alright, new Prime Access is out. Vauban/Prime was buffed with Minelayer, Prime version has minor buffs and an extra polarity. Fragor Prime is the sniper rifle of melee, and the Akstiletto Prime seems to be able to compete with the Braton Prime. Sounds good for a Prime Access, if you ask me, since these are straight up buffs from their regular counterparts.

So, what's the problem?

The gap between F2P players and wallet warriors, that's what the problem is now. So, here are my points/opinions/assumptions/experiences why this gap has increased:

• Probably the most controversial thing currently, Vauban Prime needing 20 NITAIN TOTAL (5 per part, 5 for the BP). Sure getting 20 nitain isn't a problem, if you get lucky with all the nitain alerts, camp them 24/7 in front of your PC, or have a lot of free time and an alert app to...well...alert you. Those busy (studying, work, family, life, etc.) will depend on luck if they are able to access said nitain alerts. Now ship sabotage is another thing, but requires at least 2 players to be efficient, and is fairly unreliable, due to some random caches not being existent/missing.
• Placement of prime parts currently. So most, if not all, players know that Rotation C is the MOST DILUTE thing existing in the game, and DEvs decide to put the new primes in only Rotation C's (considering that you need the whole set anyways to get the whole thing built to work). Akstilleto Prime has 3 parts in Rotation C, and they are all in T4 missions, which has a chance to give R5 cores in general, even at Rotation C. Fragor Prime has one part in Rotation C, although in a T3 mission, is still not an excuse, since it is still diluted. Vauban Prime, in 2 Rotation C missions, T3 and T4. People who have time to sperg/grind for parts WILL still have a problem, but those without the time are dangled the "buy me" option.
• Another prime parts placement issue, but this time in focus of the "Ignored Rotations(tm)." Ignored Rotations(tm) are those rotations that have almost nothing (prime parts-wise) in them, but random rewards which should have been integrated in-game. Rotation As and Bs in general are offenders, being given minimal prime parts, while putting a load of stuff in Rotation C. ODS and ODD are the prime offenders, having an abyssmally low chance to drop prime parts even at Rotation C. This has led to the "Prime Vault," something that could have been avoided, because of the lack of T1-T3 Interception, lack of prime parts in Rotation A and B, the lack of prime parts in the Derelicts, and even probably the lack of T1-T4 spy (if such a thing is a good idea.) Basically, for new players to avail of these things, they are forced to go to trading and buy them using platinum they have bought, while F2P players wait for U19 to probably open up the vaults again.. An indirect reference to wallet warriors out there.
• Sibear requires 30k cryotic, a very huge amount of cryotic (300 excavators), not a problem for those that power-farmed these before the excavation "rebalance" and core drop nerfs. Not a major problem, since it isn't a prime anyways, but shows a gap between F2P and paying players.
• An argument that may seem dull, but I'd consider the Second Dream to be another gap opener (gear-wise). So, finishing this quest gives Broken-War, a pre-requisite for a probably broken weapon, War. Now, buying Hunhow's Gift gives you War for free (technically) and some cosmetics exclusive to the bundle. If you can't afford that platinum, then you are going to grind for War BP from Stalker. Wanting to keep both, you farm Stalker for Broken War BP, and conculysts for 2x blades and a hilt (really broken logic there). So, again, F2P players grind a huge wall, while wallet warriors have instant access. Players without time and money suffer both ways, and again, a gap is presented.
• The introduction of clan-tech weapons to the Market. Yes, this is an old thing already, since older tech weapons can't be bought with plat anyways. The problem is, the recent clan-techs can be bought with plat as well, aside from the usual gathering of materials and researching. The problem with this is the fact that some Clan-Tech weapons are expensive, and are available from the market. Also, a side note, forma BP drops have been seemingly nerfed before, and pre-built forma don't seem to exist in the void anymore. The Knux is probably the best example out there. Again, a small gap, but a gap nonetheless.

Now I'd probably get the "trade chat" argument. Sure it works for some market items, but what about the primes (especially the recent one)? What about those that only have one hour per day to play, and are unlucky, and have bad connection whenever they get the chance to play? What about those who aren't able to get the nitain because of luck?

Now, I'd probably get the "wait for Starmap 3.0 if it solves the vault issue," but what if it acted like how Frost Prime was unvaulted? It diluted drop tables even more, and the "buy me" option was dangled as well. It was limited time as well to boot (but nothing can be done about that).

Lastly, I'd probably get the argument of "But DE needs to feed themselves as well." Yes that is understood, but the MASSIVE dilution and IMPROPER distribution wasn't necessary. I mean, they could just go 10% x 10 for a single rotation, but they had to weight it very low as well (I assume ~2.5% per new Rotation C item). Players who find the game good tend to buy for cosmetics anyways, or buy plat to support the game (Founders did this right?). So, the mandatory massive dilution wasn't necessary, if you ask me.

Relevant:

Bourbon List (for those who aren't familiar with it), are the problems that DEvs identified as...well...the problem, and seek to solve it. Ironic really.

tl;dr

  Hide contents

None, go read it all.

 

You spoke my mind. I couldn't stand loosing my Broken War and farmed and traded my butt of and had to get a HUGE HELP from a friend to get the bundle.

So, yeah. I do hope that that grindin' thing on the list is fixed ASAP.

[alfaomega04]

I'll be the unpopular opinion.

Quite honestly, I believe the primes are actually a bit too easy to acquire. Sure one runs hundreds of mission trying to farm a specific prime (be it weapon or frame) but we also get other rewards in the process. Sure the prime weapons do offer much improved stats (most of the time anyway), therefore I'm fine with the current drop rate on those. However, the frames themselves are essentially just eye candy and not having them does not subtract at all from the content available to players as vanilla frames work just as well. Thus, if anything, I actually think prime warframes should be even much more challenging to obtain making them a status symbol as opposed to just more mastery.

[matto]

20 minutes ago, alfaomega04 said:

I'll be the unpopular opinion.

Quite honestly, I believe the primes are actually a bit too easy to acquire. Sure one runs hundreds of mission trying to farm a specific prime (be it weapon or frame) but we also get other rewards in the process. Sure the prime weapons do offer much improved stats (most of the time anyway), therefore I'm fine with the current drop rate on those. However, the frames themselves are essentially just eye candy and not having them does not subtract at all from the content available to players as vanilla frames work just as well. Thus, if anything, I actually think prime warframes should be even much more challenging to obtain making them a status symbol as opposed to just more mastery.

It's a bit flawed to sum it up this way but would you recommend someone playing Pokemon to just stop caring about getting them and just play the game for what it is?

As some people said, Warframe is more elaborate and has much to offer, but it is strongly based on a collection purpose for the playerbase.

But I agree with you that it shows some kind of status and that's one lever almost all F2P games (among some others) use the most.

[Zeranov]

On 18.5.2016 at 0:42 PM, matto said:

Prime vault is just a temporary solution to the reward tables issue. 

This.

It's an all or nothing situation for me, since not re-releasing all the vaulted items would be one big betrayal to their playerbase. They said that the vault is there because of the dillution of the void drop tables. I kinda accepted the lie (because look at the wasted space in the overall loot tables; Bo Prime ornament was the best example) but only because my hopes are with the remodeled star chart and the "Explosion of the Void™".

For all I care they can cycle the available primes drops every week so it doesn't get too stuffed or something, but this recent policy of artificial shortage is a F2P component I very much disgust and I think/ hope DE is better than this.

Time will tell.

U19 will tell.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Zeranov
moar epic closure

[Barkano]

On 18/5/2016 at 10:00 AM, Dobroazur said:

"...If you had nothing to grind for, what would you do in this game? Probably just get bored as hell.
Sure, the combat in the game is fun and awesome, but it's not enough to keep people entertained for long, so you need a goal, and that goal is acquiring rare items that require a lot of time to get..."
 

That's  exactly the problem must of us are veteran player that already own everything or most items in the game, and the combat is the same over and over is not being refreshed anytime soon. so if the new content comes out and is hidden behind walls of repetitive comabat and rng-frustration. is like buy the PA or get annoyed.  i dont even play survival or defense anymore so painfully slow and unrewarding.  but, hey i understand that is just me and we all have our personal and valid opinions. 

Edited May 19, 2016 by Barkano

[Nijyumensou]

22 hours ago, matto said:

I'll just post this here. Too tired to reply about economic stuff.

Digital Extremes has been selected for the 2015 Deloitte Technology Fast 50 list for Canada and the Technology Fast 500 for North America ranking at 29 on the Top 50 list.

http://www.digitalextremes.com/news/2015/11/digital-extremes-named-fastest-growing-tech-company

Access to a market of 1.4 billion people and $73 million in cash are driving growth at Digital Extremes, London’s biggest gaming business.

http://www.lfpress.com/2014/10/15/londons-digital-extremes-sold-to-multi-dynamic-games-group

Digital Extremes ended 2013 with a profit of nearly $4.5 million after taxes, according to financial statements included in the deal. Profit was $7 million for the six months that ended April 30.

http://www.metronews.ca/news/canada/2014/10/15/london-video-game-developer-digital-extremes-bought-by-chicken-company.html

Don't take me wrong, what did Michael Schmalz with Digital Extremes is truly astonishing and deserves a lot of recognition, but if people could stop talking about DE like it was a start-up company... that would make more sense.

Can you bring up something more recent instead of old news that shows that they were in their prime or at least show us the financial reports of their 2016 first quarter to compare with? What I was essentially trying to bring across is that they want incremental profit margin but if a game starts to show signs of decreasing profit which this game is starting to feel that way, what other method can they use to salvage this profit margin?

Edited May 19, 2016 by Nijyumensou

[-KoreanPotato-]

Vauban p still easier to get than normal vauban i cri

[-Ropefish-]

i think no matter what people will still complain, just sit back and grab some popcorn is what i say.

[Completionist]

On 5/18/2016 at 5:37 AM, CapAllan said:

Thought I'd just drop this here.

 

Anyway, I agree with the OP. I've been playing for only a few months and I am already pretty much burned out. My PC can no longer take the strain and nor can my personal life. I understand that you guys got to eat, but please. Ease this burden a bit. We all love this game and I don't want to let it go like this.

 

This... This is.. so beautiful. How have I never seen this before?!?! I have been searching my whole Warframe career for something like this.

[LZWilde]

I'm long enough here to know that U19 will change nothing. It will introduce a quest, couple new shiny baubles, a cat or two, game mode that almost no one plays will get some improvements, starchart will get visual re-rework and some nodes trimmed. That's it. Same old flawed game mechanics and systems still be flawed.

Grind will not change, despite all that "We want to reduce grind", "Void fatigue" and bourbon list crap a.k.a  "This time we'll lessen grind, seriously, i swear on my grans knickers". Straight up lies and deception from DE.

Sortie tokens. How long we should beg? Do i need to sacrifice my first born son to get it?

U19 will change nothing. Vanity will wear off in a week and then same old S#&$. Same old wrinkly carrot and stick.

 

[matto]

5 hours ago, Nijyumensou said:

Can you bring up something more recent instead of old news that shows that they were in their prime or at least show us the financial reports of their 2016 first quarter to compare with? What I was essentially trying to bring across is that they want incremental profit margin but if a game starts to show signs of decreasing profit which this game is starting to feel that way, what other method can they use to salvage this profit margin?

Financial reports are not available online, you can't rely on anything but the articles that are available. And for 2016, we'll probably hear about it at the beginning of 2017. Only thing you could do is ask informations to the local chamber of commerce and I'm not even sure, as it depends on the local legislation and the company policy, if you can have such informations.

Anyway, Warframe is going well I suppose. If there was an issue about profit margin, then just use more arguments to make people spend plats so the amount of in-game currency available in the player-to-player market will decrease. Thus, implying that this market will need fresh cash too. We haven't got any armor bundle (except pakal) for a while now, or a new syandana or anything that is not either Baro (and let's be honest, except for a few it is a reskin) or PA.

They will get more and more income from the Tennogen items though, as a lot of them are being looked at and will be in game soon enough. Tennogen being a new source of cash for Warframe, even if it is cut in three shares. Change the mods available in the platinum bundles to fit more with the mods people are looking for, or even lower the price of PA so more people will purchase it.

Cosmetics is, right now, quite neglected if you want my opinion. They found an easier way which is to rely on players' contributions through steam, which requires only reviewing and certification. As long as a bit of a support to be sure the designed items can adapt. And since that, I don't see much for a studio that employ enough people to create some new items in the game's market.

We'll see though the form Umbra will take. If it is another PA kind of logic, then we can worry about either 1/ DE is trying to find new ways to get a revenue because there is an issue or 2/ DE makes everything to get more money just because it works and is quite profitable.

Also, you seem to forget that DE opened its market to China which was the big deal Schmalz was waiting for to increase the customer base. And it doesn't cost much to export a game that is already ready and mature.

Edited May 19, 2016 by matto