Explosives and AoE Changes I Think Should Happen (Including Tonkor)

[TheLexiConArtist]

6 hours ago, (PS4)aiptekfanboy said:

Two shots miss miss dead tenno thats a huge disadvantage for the tonkor but funny you keep sidestepping the issue .

Proven false in the Tonkor thread by myself and Magneu. Accurate usage of a Soma Prime with comparable modding results in more damage (and takes longer) than it does to fire two failed Tonkor grenades, reload, and shoot a third for the kill, on enemies of a threatening level.

Nice 'disadvantage', being still better with a 0.33 accuracy rate...

[shyguyk]

10 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Proven false in the Tonkor thread by myself and Magneu. Accurate usage of a Soma Prime with comparable modding results in more damage (and takes longer) than it does to fire two failed Tonkor grenades, reload, and shoot a third for the kill, on enemies of a threatening level.

Nice 'disadvantage', being still better with a 0.33 accuracy rate...

I think the word you were looking for is less if the tonkor one shots

[TheLexiConArtist]

18 minutes ago, shyguyk said:

I think the word you were looking for is less if the tonkor one shots

I thought it was implicative enough given that the quote was in regard to danger to the player. I meant more damage taken when using the Soma Prime, despite two missed Tonkor grenades and a reload, extrapolated from videos provided.

I never actually provided the post link, so here.

Bears noting that the Corrupted Heavy Gunners in the videos I was extrapolating from were only level 70 as well, meaning things could get even more favourable to the Tonkor than that. Also, t4 damage amplification in the case of Corrupted doesn't matter since the actual calculations were algebraic (enemy DPS was represented as a symbol, not a value).

Of course, things can be less favourable to the Tonkor but if you're going much farther lower in levels that TTK tightens up sufficiently to the point where a single miss (much less two and a reload) is not amortised over the course of killing multiple targets, then you're probably not in too much danger to begin with from those level 20s...

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

16 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Proven false in the Tonkor thread by myself and Magneu. Accurate usage of a Soma Prime with comparable modding results in more damage (and takes longer) than it does to fire two failed Tonkor grenades, reload, and shoot a third for the kill, on enemies of a threatening level.

Nice 'disadvantage', being still better with a 0.33 accuracy rate...

 

Three shot modded tonkor means LESS damage per shot.

This gets you dead versus a level 150 corrupted heavy gunner.

The sonicor on the other hand is ragdoll then avalanche orthos prime till avalanche wears off, snowglobe then repeat with sonicor.

The second DE decides to remove self damage from the secura penta, penta , orgris, angstrum, et all is the exact second the tonkor  gets dropped in the delete bin.

The impact of a tonkor miss is that by the time you reloaded you died unless playing regular starchart.

A properly modded  sonicor does a better job with 15 rounds in the clip plus ragdolls for hard cc regardless of enemy levels and in this the tonkor fails hard.

If theres ever a primary version of the sonicor with ragdolls for hard cc say goodbye to the tonkor.

But what I really want is a primary version of the stug or a kulstar with no self damage.

You want the tonkor gone?

Easy wait till de releases a better weapon or a weapon with a fun quirk like shooting balls of melted sticky tar like the tar moa does.

Time for overwatch, later.

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)aiptekfanboy said:

 

Three shot modded tonkor means LESS damage per shot.

This gets you dead versus a level 150 corrupted heavy gunner.

The sonicor on the other hand is ragdoll then avalanche orthos prime till avalanche wears off, snowglobe then repeat with sonicor.

The second DE decides to remove self damage from the secura penta, penta , orgris, angstrum, et all is the exact second the tonkor  gets dropped in the delete bin.

The impact of a tonkor miss is that by the time you reloaded you died unless playing regular starchart.

A properly modded  sonicor does a better job with 15 rounds in the clip plus ragdolls for hard cc regardless of enemy levels and in this the tonkor fails hard.

If theres ever a primary version of the sonicor with ragdolls for hard cc say goodbye to the tonkor.

But what I really want is a primary version of the stug or a kulstar with no self damage.

You want the tonkor gone?

Easy wait till de releases a better weapon or a weapon with a fun quirk like shooting balls of melted sticky tar like the tar moa does.

Time for overwatch, later.

 

Coherence would be nice.

Where did I say three shot tonkor (assuming you meant 3 in the mag?) I said missing two and reloading, then firing a third that connects, is still more effective at that low accuracy (33%) than the previous broken tier of weapons at a high accuracy (80%-90%) is.

Where did warframe abilities come in? Turns out they work no matter what you're holding. Avalanche will stop things moving so you don't miss those Tonkor shots.

 

The second DE takes self-damage off other launchers is the second nothing changes because the Tonkor still outstrips their performance by an order of magnitude. Dropping Ogris in made that extra lulzy, because Ogris has a 0.4 fire rate due to charge-up compared to the Tonkor's 2. Before 5 Ogris shots are out (12.5 seconds) and you've reloaded (another 2.5), you can fire out ten Tonkor grenades and reload for another pair ready to go. (1 second per 2 fired + 2 second reload = 3 sec per 2 grenades total, 15s/3s = 5 * 2 grenades.)

 

"The impact of a Tonkor miss is that you're dead unless in star chart" - Do you understand the words "this has been proven false"? You can repeat it all you like, but when we've shown that you take more damage when hitting reliably with a Soma Prime than missing twice, reloading and then hitting with the Tonkor by video evidence and mathematically sound extrapolation, you're not proving the Tonkor is worse off. If the impact of a Tonkor miss is that you're dead, then the impact of a non-Tonkor hit is that you're dead when it comes to killing things.

 

You say the Sonicor is more useful, I say it's goddamned annoying trying to hit things when my targets are being flung around everywhere and my screen is full of extra particles that have no business being there.

Edited June 1, 2016 by EDYinnit

[DeadlyPeanutt]

1 hour ago, (PS4)aiptekfanboy said:

The second DE decides to remove self damage from the secura penta, penta , orgris, angstrum, et all is the exact second the tonkor  gets dropped in the delete bin.

 

Time for overwatch, later.

 

true this... tonkor is quirky enough that it would be trashed the second self damage is removed from all weapons, as it should be. 

you can do tens of thousands of damage points with torrid without self damage... or set a whole mob of bots on fire with ember and there's no self damage... self damage is quite silly.

want tonkor to go away? just remove self damage... penta and kulstar would be the new meta. 

 

Edited June 1, 2016 by DeadlyPeanutt

[GOLANX]

On 5/29/2016 at 4:53 AM, (PS4)aiptekfanboy said:

So you want more nerfs?

Did you miss the just recent nerfs to warframes ?

No thanks to yet even more nerfs .

add to this equation that there are more weapons in the game than SOMA Prime and Launchers, some of us would Like Bows and Sniper Rifles to be Viable too, and those are just my favorites among primary weapons. sometimes i like to go up to an enemy and punch him in the face.

I usually only play solo, if im in a team its friends and i do only sorties in public, this is because if anyone on the team has Tonkor, and there always is, my contribution to the game with a Paris Prime seems woefully inadequate. when the endscreen comes up: GOLANX :5% damage, *tonkorplayer: 48%  

to make things worse i have to aim at an enemies head to get a headshot, if i Miss, there isn't even an AOE, if i miss i get 0 damage, and if the enemy is moving its easy to miss.  as for your tonkor you get to shoot at the biggest target in the game, the floor, and if you miss your reload isn't much worse, you can still deal damage with a miss, and it will always be a crit headshot.

all in all if you cant take the Tonkor Nerf, tell me what should be added to Bows, just Bows (keeping in mind they don't make the end of the list of weapons in the game) to make them match the Tonkor in Power? imo it will take more than an aimbot, i will need more than an aimbot that automatically redcrit headshots, i will need an aimbot that automatically redcrit headshots multiple enemies based on my Punch through aimbotted as a headshot after each hit, that way i have Bow Easy mode just as much as you have Tonkor easy mode.

 

as for the OP: i like your Post it certainly seems like a Start, i don't have a tonkor but honestly havent heard about ts rocketjump and dont think many Tonkor players knows it exists, please excume my Ignorance but dont you get a similar maybe better effect from just bulletjump? idk if we need a weapon for rocketjump, it could just go the way of the dodo. 

as for Hush on Tonkor, i only learned that a few days ago and i was furious, i figured the only thing i had on tonkor players was stealth small benefit though it is, imo not only should Launchers not be able to use hush it should have the reverse effect. enemies a few rooms away should be headed for the nearest terminal, and potentially allow them to set of alarms at a faster rate, including lockdowns. ok Lockdowns may be too much XD but Launchers should definitely be the antithesis of stealth players.

as for the CC buff idk, maybe just a buff to the blast proc, and building on the Mag Rework, maybe Blast damage creates shrapnel from armored enemies that follows the blast, but potentially has a even greater range, that should fit with irl explosives too.

[shyguyk]

48 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

true this... tonkor is quirky enough that it would be trashed the second self damage is removed from all weapons, as it should be. 

you can do tens of thousands of damage points with torrid without self damage... or set a whole mob of bots on fire with ember and there's no self damage... self damage is quite silly.

want tonkor to go away? just remove self damage... penta and kulstar would be the new meta. 

 

Klustar might break into the secondary meta, but the tonkor will still be king of launchers until crit headshots on explosives gets fixed.

[Azzaruth]

I do agree that the Tonkor should do self damage to compensate for its high attack power, and that other explosives should have their damaged increased a bit to compensate that they can damage the user. Though in this case, I'd say that the current damage for Tonkor would be fair with risk of self damage due to how risky it would be and how awkward it would be to aim. But I would keep the rocket bounce as an alt fire, it's not all that great I admit, but I do find it amusing.

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

15 hours ago, shyguyk said:

Klustar might break into the secondary meta, but the tonkor will still be king of launchers until crit headshots on explosives gets fixed.

Just give me a primary stug and a better mod for bows and snipers and tonkor dies.

[KoinStar]

 

16 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

true this... tonkor is quirky enough that it would be trashed the second self damage is removed from all weapons, as it should be. 

you can do tens of thousands of damage points with torrid without self damage... or set a whole mob of bots on fire with ember and there's no self damage... self damage is quite silly.

want tonkor to go away? just remove self damage... penta and kulstar would be the new meta. 

Tonkor would not be trashed if other launchers had self damage removed. Again, please read the post, as I explain that while all launchers deal auto-headshots, Tonkor gets auto-crit headshots, which is an insane damage jump above anything else; Tonkor is on another tier than any other gun. If they removed AoE weapons getting headshots by default, Tonkor would still be in the top tier, possibly still the top-gun, because you could still deal that damage, just not automatically whenever you hit an enemy. Please, read the post before discussing, since you don't know what you're talking about. Also, again, if you read my post, you would know I don't want Tonkor to go away; I want unbalancing to go away. I've already explained how I would fix this. Please read more than the title.

[Luther848]

One thing that I typically don't see in the Nerf Tonkor threads addressing are bugs that would make it unplayable if it had self damage. One common bug that I think should be addressed is the bug where Tonkor nades will explode with no reason as soon as you fire the weapon. If I am going to take full self-damage from the Tonkor I shouldn't have to play a game of Russian Roulette. Not a bug but Tonkor nades explode on contact with you and other Tenno so prepared to be screwed by some random outside factor. It's one of the things that set's the Tonkor apart from other explosives. Most launcher weapons either travel in a straight line then explode giving you time to get away from the explosion or at least  a predicable location where the explosion would be or like the Penta series the allow the Tenno to control the explosion. If you plan on adding Tonkor self damage you should at least address the bugs with the weapon too.

[shyguyk]

Just now, Luther848 said:

One thing that I typically don't see in the Nerf Tonkor threads addressing are bugs that would make it unplayable if it had self damage. One common bug that I think should be addressed is the bug where Tonkor nades will explode with no reason as soon as you fire the weapon. If I am going to take full self-damage from the Tonkor I shouldn't have to play a game of Russian Roulette. Not a bug but Tonkor nades explode on contact with you and other Tenno so prepared to be screwed by some random outside factor. It's one of the things that set's the Tonkor apart from other explosives. Most launcher weapons either travel in a straight line then explode giving you time to get away from the explosion or at least  a predicable location where the explosion would be or like the Penta series the allow the Tenno to control the explosion. If you plan on adding Tonkor self damage you should at least address the bugs with the weapon too.

this is why you dont buy grineer.

[DeadlyPeanutt]

On 6/1/2016 at 8:33 PM, shyguyk said:

Klustar might break into the secondary meta, but the tonkor will still be king of launchers until crit headshots on explosives gets fixed.

i disagree with due respect.  penta and s. penta are MUCH better than tonkor if self damage is removed. and i agree that kulstar would replace sonicor and staticor as secondary metas 

[shyguyk]

2 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

i disagree with due respect.  penta and s. penta are MUCH better than tonkor if self damage is removed. and i agree that kulstar would replace sonicor and staticor as secondary metas 

Would it replace them, hell no. But it would have a place.

Tonkors crits stats put it too far above the penta to be swapped out.

[DeadlyPeanutt]

12 hours ago, shyguyk said:

Would it replace them, hell no. But it would have a place.

Tonkors crits stats put it too far above the penta to be swapped out.

this is true, but with enough damage, crits are pretty meaningless

[KoinStar]

On 6/3/2016 at 10:32 AM, DeadlyPeanutt said:

this is true, but with enough damage, crits are pretty meaningless

Not really. I don't think you understand why Tonkor is so good and why everyone uses it, or by how much Tonkor deals more damage. Crits are the reason it deals so much damage. Tonkor is a crit weapon. Not only that, it is an AoE, so it gets automatic headshots every time one of its grenades hits someone. However, since it gets headshots, it will get a crit headshot damage bonus, on top of the critical hit damage bonus. It gets a lot of damage bonus that brings it above everything else by a mile. 

[(PSN)Trutenax89]

I honestly hate the explosive weapons in this game. I think they should come with some kind of strong drawback like limited mobility and should have very limited ammo.

[Cat__Nap]

Stopped reading after the "make Bombards even more ridiculously overpowered" bit.

Yes, Tonkor is imbalanced compared to other weapons, but part of that is the amount of damage the other weapons can do when using them. By that, I mean, shooting once at an enemy with a Kulstar will oneshot you on some frames, twoshot you on others, and the best part is you can get hit by multiple clusters, so even if you're on a tanky frame, you can still oneshot yourself. It's literally only usable on maps where you can be on higher ground most of the time; as much as I love the explosions with Kulstar on my Mirage, it's too deadly to ever use on her unless I'm just leveling weapons on Akkad. I would forma it if it weren't for the fact that it's unusable in so many places, yet so easy to forget that one shot will kill you. Get downed and someone's ressing you? Hey, let's help my teammates by shooting mobs trying to kill them while they're ressing! Oh, what's that? A clusterbomb ricocheted off a mob and hit you as soon as you revived? "Res again, please."

Kulstar's probably one of the more deadly ones because of the clusters, but the same thing applies to all launchers. They just do too much damage to you. And yes, Tonkor should do damage to yourself too if they're not removing that from other launchers - it wouldn't be hard to keep the rocket jump as a secondary fire mode. But balancing the self damage is tricky - make it a flat number, and it won't scale well because some frames have very high HP, while others have so little that it's laughable. Same with shields. Maybe capping the self damage it can do at a certain % of your frame's HP/Shields combined, with the scaling depending on how close you are, as the OP suggested. One thing is for sure, though: no single weapon should be able to kill its own user in one, two, or even three hits. It just should not happen. Period.

I also don't agree that it should give a knockdown. A weapon that makes you vulnerable to everything around you whenever you use it? Yeah, I'd totally want to use that. And it'd be both annoying and overpowered if launchers all knocked every mob near its radius of impact across the map. That would be a terrible, terrible change.

[Futurehero]

Don't add self damage, just gut it so that the current Ogris and Penta are more powerful than it. I mean it's a mastery rank 5 weapon you craft off a market blueprint....

That thing is ridiculous on a turbulence Zephyr. It needs to go.

My suggestions: Gut the damage on it, and add a high status chance to it. It's supposed to be a concussion grenade launcher , no?  Then have it fire concussion grenades that do crap all damage, but ragdoll enemies in a large AOE, like a primary weapon version of the Sonicor. 

The Ogris should be the best launcher weapon in my opinion. It's Clan tech, takes forma to build, and you need to charge up each shot. 

 

[KoinStar]

@Catoriii

" Stopped reading after the "make Bombards even more ridiculously overpowered" bit. "

That's a poor way to start out. Commenting on a post when you didn't read all of it? Also, it's not a damage buff to the Ogris, just more of a knockback. Getting hit point blank with a rocket should do more than make you faceplant. Also, there's a more important nerf to Bombards; removing that crazy 90 degree turn of the Bombard rockets. If they were dodge-able, they wouldn't be nearly as much as a problem, but right now, the game doesn't reward any of your parkour tricks. The rocket will still hit no matter where you go.

" I also don't agree that it should give a knockdown. A weapon that makes you vulnerable to everything around you whenever you use it? Yeah, I'd totally want to use that. And it'd be both annoying and overpowered if launchers all knocked every mob near its radius of impact across the map. That would be a terrible, terrible change. "

So you must not like the Sonicor. Well, the general consensus seems to be that the Sonicor has great CC, so I don't see the issue with adding something like that to explosives. As for self-knockdown, it's a risk you take wen using a very powerful weapon. You seem to want all advantages and minimal (if any) disadvantages, which isn't how balancing works. As for the self-damage, if you don't want to get shot, then don't shoot it near you. You wouldn't want to shoot a grenade or rocket right next to you IRL, right? I think there should be a similar deterrent in the game, which I represented with the percentage self-damage and knockback.

 

[KoinStar]

@Futurehero

Considering most people use the Tonkor as a high-damage weapon, it would be a bigger change to nerf the damage and change it's roll to status than to do what I suggest. My suggestions keep it as the crit launcher that deals high damage, it just makes it less OP.