Forma changes are a good thing

[Troll_Logic]

1 hour ago, Souldend78 said:

lol

Take that weapon before changes (no Serration) to a level 30 mission.....that was much, much, much, much slower.

Yes.  That was my point.  It is a less gimped weapon, but it is still gimped.

I have no idea why this is so difficult for people to understand.

Using a gimped weapon to level a gimped weapon is slow.  Like you mentioned it was "much, much, much, much slower."

 

Leveling strategies

Old way with a 0 formaed weapon "much, much, much, much slower"

New way with MR points on formaed weapon "much, much slower"

Using a pimped out weapon after formaing a weapon "Fast."

 

Edited June 4, 2016 by Troll_Logic

[Kinetos]

T2Surv, solo. Both Sobek and Staticor started unranked, didn't touch the Staticor, Sobek was oneshotting most of the time. Until the end, it could not have performed any better with more mods. There's no reward for overkill damage.

Add shared XP to this, and both the Sobek and Staticor would have benefited from it. Sobek would still have made 80k more XP than Staticor.

[Loswaith]

Using the weapon is always better on gaining affinity.

Lets presume a player had a full kit, full group and each kill give 100 affinity, for 1000 enemies for the group.

Not using the weapon:
Each player gets the same number of kills; 250 (unlikely but good or the maths)
Gain for your kills (half to weapon used half to warframe): 0 x 100 x 0.5 = 0 (for the weapon you want ranked, because you aren't using it)
Gain for team kills (25% to each gear): 750 x 100 x 0.25 = 18750
Total gain for weapon needing ranks: 0 + 18750 = 18750 Affinity

Using the weapon lets presume you get half the kills than not using the weapon (125 kills):
Gain for your kills: 125 x 100 x 0.5 = 6250
Gain for team kills: 875 x 100 x 0.25 = 21875
Total gain for that weapon: 6250 + 21875 = 28125 Affinity

So how much gain: 28125 / 18750 = 1.5
Thus 50% more affinity you gained for actually using the weapon, desipte killing half as many enemies

Even if you short your kit on a weapon thus shared affinity is split only 3 ways
Gain for not using weapon: (0 x 250 x 0.5) + (750 x 100 x 0.3333) = 24997.5
Gain for your kills: 125 x 100 x 0.5 = 6250
Gain for team kills: 875 x 100 x 0.3333 = 29163.75
Overall gain for that weapon: 35412.75
Thus; 35412.75 / 24997.5 = 1.4167 (over 40% more affinity for using the weapon)

Clearly much better to use the weapon even if you only kill half as many enemies as you would without it.

Thus the new system actually makes for better earning of affinity than previously for a specific weapon.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Loswaith
emphasis on parts

[Gilmaesh]

 

16 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

Think of it this way.  You and three other players have to push 400 pounds up a hill.  That means each person should be pushing equally 100 pounds.  Taking only a gimped weapon means you're pushing 20 pounds while the other three players have to push the other 380 pounds.  This change is the equivalent of the player now pushing 50 pounds instead of 20 pounds and the other players pushing 350 pounds.  On the surface it sounds better, but in practice the player is still gimping himself and requiring the other players to do more.

Taking a gimped weapon to level that gimped weapon is a bad idea. 

I understand your reasoning, I've always seen some players bringing a lvl 0 weapon in defense and painfully trying to kill something with it. i always told them it will be faster / better for everyone if they used their good weapons or frame abilities and they don't care. But as you said yourself, at least some of them, will be able to kill things now, that's an improvement.

That change is more for people who level their weapons without drako and have a MR high enough to profit from it. It can be viewed as a small change but it's definitely something. 

9 hours ago, Loswaith said:

Clearly much better to use the weapon even if you only kill half as many enemies as you would without it.

It's if you have a mr high enough to equip some good mods, not everyone potato every weapon and not every weapon leveled is a sonicor/vaykor hek or a tonkor so being able to do half the kills you would usually do is a bit of a stretch. And there is also the time spent on some mission, like defense.

Without that change his reasoning was right, now a bit less if you have a descent MR. 

Edited June 4, 2016 by Gilmaesh

[PowerofTwo]

10 hours ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

It's definitely 75-85%, depending on what polarities are there. That is around 6 mods. The first few mods are most of the damage, after all. The final mods always get the shot end of the stick, due to being additive rather than multiplicative, like the first ones.

Neah, it depends on the weapon, can't realy generalize. Meele weapons need 0-2 forma (because primed reach and blood rush) , primaries generaly will get 2-4 (rarely six forma depending on starting polarities) because only shotguns have primed mods atm, but secondaries....ow boy 4-6 forma on all secondaries because we have 3 primed mods AND two multishot mods.

So yeah might me 75% ish for a Meele weapon, closer to 25% for a secondary tho

[kubbi]

Not what I expected but yeah change is ok. I thought yay no more painfull grinding for xp to level formaed weapons and warframes. But nope the change simply makes it easier to level said warframe and/or weapon. 

To be honest I am dissapointed. Not because the change wasn't what I expected. But because DE clearly had a set mind concerning grind. They clearly think its fine and don't intend to reduce it. 

And I strongly disagree with it. Because the level process won't eliminate any oppertunities for people's decision to spend money  on the game or not. I think it would actually increase sales since people won't be pushed away from the grind as much. 

Edited June 4, 2016 by kubbi

[-N7-Leonhart]

10 hours ago, xmegarockx said:

u gona need less forma to max out and no every one is mr21.

But still, it will never work like that. They are not aiming to make higher mastery rank have more power and much greater advantages than a lower mastery rank.

[Soulden]

10 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

Yes.  That was my point.  It is a less gimped weapon, but it is still gimped.

I have no idea why this is so difficult for people to understand.

Using a gimped weapon to level a gimped weapon is slow.  Like you mentioned it was "much, much, much, much slower."

 

Leveling strategies

Old way with a 0 formaed weapon "much, much, much, much slower"

New way with MR points on formaed weapon "much, much slower"

Using a pimped out weapon after formaing a weapon "Fast."

 

Thats the beauty of new system, you go from 0 mod capacity to whatever, you start at pimped out (Assuming rank 10+ and Catalyst).

Do below MR 10 benefit from it as much? No...(incentive to grind MR), for sure it will be a gimped out weapon. But considering that they only got to work it past rank 9 to start earning additional mod capacity, it is not as a dreadful system as you make it sound.

Just not ideal (no grind = dream on), but for sure much efficient than previously.

Edit:

Also , don't forget the intention was to give MR another reason to be useful outside trades, while helping those high MR Tenno skip Draco they dread so much.

Was never about helping new players.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Souldend78

[Laidain]

This forma change didn't really solve anything,you're still doing equal amounts of grinding even before the change,it doesn't shorten the grind at alll...Just tie MR with forma so like let's say you're MR 15,you will start at rank 15 on your weapon therefore reducing the amount of time it takes to level the weapon.Just making MR affect the capacity doesn't get rid of the issue,it essentially makes it the same,you're still doing the same amount of grinding.It seems like it helps but it really doesn't.

[Kinetos]

4 man Hieracon, used Staticor only when carrying a core, so not much. Ranks started where previous screenshot left off (17 and 2), modded as if rank 21 with potato.

Using Sobek nearly doubled its XP gain, and I seem to have done well despite it being "gimped".

Edited June 4, 2016 by KinetosImpetus

[(PSN)Nyxn607]

On 6/2/2016 at 1:49 AM, Troll_Logic said:

To me, however, the goal is to get the 7 forma Amprex done so I can play with a 7 forma amprex.  Not to play with it four times longer while it's gimped.

 

This make no sense at all ... how is it taking longer to level? Are you talking about putting a forma into making it unranked again? If so that happens to any weapon you put a forma into ....

Also with the change how exactly is it gimped other than it isn't at rank 30 from the start?  You start out with more mod slots than you would have before the change which means you are at an advantage already ... 

So unless you are a brand new player you are just trolling the forums for fun. If that is the case then carry on my troll friend.

[Troll_Logic]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)Nyxn607 said:

This make no sense at all ... how is it taking longer to level? Are you talking about putting a forma into making it unranked again? If so that happens to any weapon you put a forma into ....

There is a thing called "context."  I suggest you read the reply "in context."

The discussion is centered around whether to use the newly formaed weapon to level itself or to use another weapon to play while the newly formaed weapon levels.

17 minutes ago, (PS4)Nyxn607 said:

Also with the change how exactly is it gimped other than it isn't at rank 30 from the start?

Yes, the weapon not being at fully loaded with mods is the very definition of gimped.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Nyxn607 said:

So unless you are a brand new player you are just trolling the forums for fun. If that is the case then carry on my troll friend.

Dude, it's obvious you have no idea what we are discussing.  Read the thread before blindly throwing accusations. 

[(PSN)Nyxn607]

Just now, Troll_Logic said:

There is a thing called "context."  I suggest you read the reply "in context."

The discussion is centered around whether to use the newly formaed weapon to level itself or to use another weapon to play while the newly formaed weapon levels.

Yes, the weapon not being at fully loaded with mods is the very definition of gimped.

Dude, it's obvious you have no idea what we are discussing.  Read the thread before blindly throwing accusations. 

First, thanks for clarifying what you meant.  Second your definition and my definition of gimped vary, but it is an opinion so, no argument here.  Third I recant my trolling accusations since you clarified what you meant by leveling an unranked weapon is "slower"  Carry on with what ever discussion you having, since according to you I have no clue.

 

[Lyravain]

On 2/6/2016 at 6:13 AM, Troll_Logic said:

But it doesn't.  That's the point.  If you use that weapon with only serration on it, you are leveling the rifle slower than by using your pimped out sonicor.  Let me repeat that.

Using your level 0 rifle with serration on it will level the rifle slower than using your pimped out sonicor to level the rifle.

It's not good.  It's not bad.

I understand your point -and I have seen its effects. Stating how that's completely insane isn't disagreeing with you, it's me disagreeing with the way affinity is wonkily distributed half the time.

That said; that's insane.

Still, I like the change. And, heck, you can put your Serration and use it in the first 10-20 minutes of a survival (where enemies are weak and easily handled with minimal mods and effort) and THEN switch to your pimped-out ride and just obliterate everything afterwards.

Still, at least forma'ing my Cerata will not hurt as much -I can barely stand the thing at best, it becomes painful when unranked.

[Loswaith]

20 hours ago, Gilmaesh said:

...

It's if you have a mr high enough to equip some good mods, not everyone potato every weapon and not every weapon leveled is a sonicor/vaykor hek or a tonkor so being able to do half the kills you would usually do is a bit of a stretch. And there is also the time spent on some mission, like defense.

Without that change his reasoning was right, now a bit less if you have a descent MR. 

While not everyone uses a catalyst in every weapon, you surely have one in there before you will spend forma on that weapon however (it gives far more moding ability than forma).  If you are using a completely new weapon then any benefit over normal will still help, but obviously its not the real intent of the change (to help players with multi-polarising weapons).

Likewise if you are reasonably low MR the change really isn't designed for those players, as its more than likely they will be trying out and ranking more new weapons than running the forma loops.

The point is if you don't use the weapon you get no affinity for any kills you do with another weapon for the one you want to rank, so essentially the more kills you do with an alternate weapon the less affinity you will gain on the weapon you are not using but ranking.  Sure it may not be as fun to kill less stuff but that is different to the affinity earning potential of a weapon.  This is why many people ranked a weapon in lower level missions, where the killing potential wasnt as hindered for having fewer mods.