Genders

[Lumireaver]

I'm not picking and choosing.  I'm picking and choosing elements that, yes, to me tell us about the game.  If you can cite examples that contradict them, by all means share.  The only one I could find is that when doing the War mission, Lotus begins by saying that Nerp Anyo has been collecting cryopods and that we need to rescue the Warframes inside.  This actually does suggest that each Tenno has a unique Warframe, and therefore each Warframe is an individual.  However, my personal read on that introduction when I first heard it was that "Warframe" was like a title or rank for the Tenno, that warriors wearing them are simply called Warframes.  I'll admit that's less likely, based on how Lotus' introduction is worded, but the there is ambiguity there.

 

These things are explicit in that, on face value, it's the information being conveyed to the player.  Oh, there are two Excaliderps here?  I guess there's more than one Excalibur.  Lotus is talking to me, regardless of what Warframe I'm using?  I guess I'm wearing different suits but am still the same person.  If you can think of other ways to interpret this information being conveyed, please share it.

 

Frankly I don't know why certain weapons require different amounts of resources, but I don't believe I was arguing any specific point in that regard, or whether that has any relation to the points I've made at all.  And I don't know why the Grineer who have the blueprints and a vast army of clone soldiers don't mass produce Warframes, but I also didn't posit on that fact because it'd be pure speculation (although on a personal note, I believe it's because only the Tenno have knowledge of either how to read/interpret the blueprints or only the Tenno have the means by which to construct them).  It could just be a gamey element, sure, but I'm not trying to argue based on assumptions.  As far as the game is telling me, Captain Vor has blueprints for the Cronus sword on him.

 

I'm not sure where you're reading "glee."  Seriously, he's hopping around because his frame gives him powers of mobility.  He's just using his advantage.  Frost is heavier, slower, and so moves slower, but he cuts people in half with as much ease/gusto.

 

And while not every random mook listens to Batman speak, lots of people do.  People who he interrogates/intimidates, Commissioner Gordon, his entire rogues gallery.  All these people, many of whom have actively engaged Batman in combat, are aware of how he behaves, how he prioritizes things, and occasionally can anticipate how he's going to act.  They could certainly differentiate between his behavior and that of another anonymous masked figure.

 

Please, tell me how I'm making "self-insert fiction" here.  I'm asking this genuinely, because I'm not sure what you mean.  I haven't just assumed Ash is crazy based on precisely nothing, and frankly I'm not even asserting that frames are just suits people wear.  I'm claiming that the game itself is suggesting this to be the case.  So please, enlighten me.

 

It's not my intention to burst any bubbles. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. You've just got to recognize that they're opinions.

 

With regards to the Nef quote, the Tenno which Nef has been abducting could easily have been Vauban, and/or the anti-matter 'Frame. (Or any of the other Tenno reinforcements we've received in the past.) Those would be their unique, individual Warframes.

 

Again, they might seem "explicit" to you, but you're kind of twisting everything to the benefit of your fanon. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Fanon'>Fan-canon) There are two Excaliburs here? Two people must have picked Excalibur! (You see how explicit that is? It's all a matter of interpretation.) Also does Lotus even talk to you? I only recall bosses making explicit reference to your login ID... and really, they shouldn't even know what Excalibur looks like underneath his mask. (Eh, beta is beta.)

 

Okay, we can gloss over that gaping huge inconsistency and talk about other points which are more favorable to your interests. Seems very open minded. I just figured the Foundry which apparently mass produces our Warframes might be a good jump-off point to illustrate that game mechanics often take precedence over conventional logic in video games, particularly because you seemed adamant about the explicit/implied evidence that it mass produces Warframes for the game's population of 200k+ Tenno. ...Also Vor probably won't be dropping that Cronus BP after he's redone, maybe. (He'll be dropping something related to his Orokin spin on the Kraken. You've got to remember that the game is in beta.)

 

From his body language. You can explicitly feel the euphoria emanating from his crazy little head. ♬~ Frost on the other hand exudes a cool collected-ness. You can see it in his stance. He's totally radiating leadership in that short.

 

...Yeah. The biggest thing here is that we don't hear Excalibur or Frost speak. If we did, we'd probably know more about them than what we can infer from their explicit body language. Also, depending on the edition of Batman you're talking about, the guy hardly displays even a modicum of personality. It's like the guy jumps through the Commissioner's window and says, "Gordon, bad guys are on the lamppost outside your office," then Gordon turns around, explicitly, to thank Batman only to discover that has explicitly vanished.

 

You're imagining up a narrative where you're playing as Cursor, eliminator of Corpus and Grineer scum, doer of ambiguous justice, and collector of data masses. (As opposed to playing as characters in a world with a plot which exists independently from you and your avatar.) This is totally fine, until you start telling other people they're wrong because you've got a list of fifty contradicting explicit, absolute "facts".  (Opinions.)

[MyHappyFace]

There's been a HUGE amount of talk about this subject, ranging from people playing devil's advocate and saying it's dumb to go against the DE's wills to people being angry at the DE for being sexist.

 

We aren't saying that DE is being sexist, we are just saying that they should or should not add alternate genders.  It will bring in a lot more people and push current players to buying platinum for cosmetic items and such when it requires a lot of work from the art and animation teams and for the rest of the people that would work on this addition to the game. All in all, this is totally DE's choice to put in or not, it could take as long as creating a new warframe even though they are just adding changes to the current frames to make it look like the opposite gender and if we don't like their design, we might not even buy it...

[CapricaSix]

We aren't saying that DE is being sexist, we are just saying that they should or should not add alternate genders.  It will bring in a lot more people and push current players to buying platinum for cosmetic items and such when it requires a lot of work from the art and animation teams and for the rest of the people that would work on this addition to the game. All in all, this is totally DE's choice to put in or not, it could take as long as creating a new warframe even though they are just adding changes to the current frames to make it look like the opposite gender and if we don't like their design, we might not even buy it...

As if anyone reads others' posts in these type of threads, well put though +1

 

Let's see how many more people will write an utterly oblivious post starting with "I really dont understand why would anyone..." and "I don't really care but no" :P ..5000 credits say page 7 will have at least 2 of them.

[BBYipho]

As if anyone reads others' posts in these type of threads, well put though +1

 

Let's see how many more people will write an utterly oblivious post starting with "I really dont understand why would anyone..." and "I don't really care but no" :P ..5000 credits say page 7 will have at least 2 of them.

I take 4-5 posts would be like that. 15,000 credits.

[Cursor]

 

It's not my intention to burst any bubbles. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. You've just got to recognize that they're opinions.

 

With regards to the Nef quote, the Tenno which Nef has been abducting could easily have been Vauban, and/or the anti-matter 'Frame. (Or any of the other Tenno reinforcements we've received in the past.) Those would be their unique, individual Warframes.

 

Again, they might seem "explicit" to you, but you're kind of twisting everything to the benefit of your fanon. (Fan-canon) There are two Excaliburs here? Two people must have picked Excalibur! (You see how explicit that is? It's all a matter of interpretation.) Also does Lotus even talk to you? I only recall bosses making explicit reference to your login ID... and really, they shouldn't even know what Excalibur looks like underneath his mask. (Eh, beta is beta.)

 

Okay, we can gloss over that gaping huge inconsistency and talk about other points which are more favorable to your interests. Seems very open minded. I just figured the Foundry which apparently mass produces our Warframes might be a good jump-off point to illustrate that game mechanics often take precedence over conventional logic in video games, particularly because you seemed adamant about the explicit/implied evidence that it mass produces Warframes for the game's population of 200k+ Tenno. ...Also Vor probably won't be dropping that Cronus BP after he's redone, maybe. (He'll be dropping something related to his Orokin spin on the Kraken. You've got to remember that the game is in beta.)

 

From his body language. You can explicitly feel the euphoria emanating from his crazy little head. ♬~ Frost on the other hand exudes a cool collected-ness. You can see it in his stance. He's totally radiating leadership in that short.

 

...Yeah. The biggest thing here is that we don't hear Excalibur or Frost speak. If we did, we'd probably know more about them than what we can infer from their explicit body language. Also, depending on the edition of Batman you're talking about, the guy hardly displays even a modicum of personality. It's like the guy jumps through the Commissioner's window and says, "Gordon, bad guys are on the lamppost outside your office," then Gordon turns around, explicitly, to thank Batman only to discover that has explicitly vanished.

 

You're imagining up a narrative where you're playing as Cursor, eliminator of Corpus and Grineer scum, doer of ambiguous justice, and collector of data masses. (As opposed to playing as characters in a world with a plot which exists independently from you and your avatar.) This is totally fine, until you start telling other people they're wrong because you've got a list of fifty contradicting explicit, absolute "facts".  (Opinions.)

I hate to keep this going, since we're basically going in circles of accusations, but I'll throw in one last response because why the hell not?  I'll keep this short.

 

Much of this is not opinion and is objective.  I'm surprised you're still trying to assert that some of these things are opinions.

 

That is an assumption.

 

I know what "fanon" is.  And while I may have a head canon, none of what I've written on this thread has been based on that.  It's all just observations about the game.  If this were my head canon, I'd go on about how I think the Tenno all have shaved heads and nice butts.  Two people standing next to each other wearing the same clothes, if we're accepting there's any cohesion to this universe, means there are at least two sets of those clothes.  Lotus talks to you at the start and end of every single mission.  I'm not sure why you keep throwing up your hands and saying "beta is beta."  If it's in, it was intentional, even things omitted.  If different information is meant to be conveyed, then the game must be changed.

 

I never said the Foundry was a shared function, nor did I explicitly imply that.  I acknowledge that the Foundry is a game mechanic, but I didn't ever reference the Foundry directly.  I also did not say I believed frames are mass produced, only that the possibly that they could be exists because of the existence of blueprints calling for readily available resources.

 

That is a purely subjective assessment.

 

Except that we don't, and there is nothing tangibly, objectively different between how frames move and how they compose themselves that would reflect personality.  Not in the cutscenes, and certainly not in gameplay where animations are shared.

 

I never once said that, and in fact don't believe that.  All I've said is that the game is implying the things I've said in this thread.  Once again, you're making assumptions.  The only thing I've claimed you were wrong about in this thread were the things I've said, not the game itself.  Otherwise I've merely cast doubt on your assertions.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Cursor

[Lumireaver]

I hate to keep this going, since we're basically going in circles of accusations, but I'll throw in one last response because why the hell not?  I'll keep this short.

 

I've just been trying to illustrate that there's more than one way to interpret things.

 

That is an assumption.

 

I know what "fanon" is.  And while I may have a head canon, none of what I've written on this thread has been based on that.  It's all just observations about the game.  If this were my head canon, I'd go on about how I think the Tenno all have shaved heads and nice butts.  Two people standing next to each other wearing the same clothes, if we're accepting there's any cohesion to this universe, means there are at least two sets of those clothes.  Lotus talks to you at the start and end of every single mission.  I'm not sure why you keep throwing up your hands and saying "beta is beta."  If it's in, it was intentional, even things omitted.  If different information is meant to be conveyed, then the game must be changed.

 

I never said the Foundry was a shared function, nor did I explicitly imply that.  I acknowledge that the Foundry is a game mechanic, but I didn't ever reference the Foundry directly.  I also did not say I believed frames are mass produced, only that the possibly that they could be exists because of the existence of blueprints calling for readily available resources.

 

That is a purely subjective assessment.

 

Except that we don't, and there is nothing tangibly, objectively different between how frames move and how they compose themselves that would reflect personality.  Not in the cutscenes, and certainly not in gameplay where animations are shared.

 

I never once said that, and in fact don't believe that.  All I've said is that the game is implying the things I've said in this thread.  Once again, you're making assumptions.  The only thing I've claimed you were wrong about in this thread were the things I've said, not the game itself.  Otherwise I've merely cast doubt on your assertions.

 

 

It's as much an assumption as any other assumption.

 

...The idea that the Grineer officials we're slaughtering repeatedly actually possess detailed blueprints could potentially be considered fanon in and of itself. (Like I said earlier, explore this idea to it's logical conclusion and you have to justify why they haven't done anything with the blueprints. Whether or you think they have actual blueprints, you've already created fanon which either supports or contradicts that theory. No matter what, until the subject is touched upon in detail, it's all just speculation.) Anyhow, doesn't Lotus only ever refer to us as "Tenno?" (If she refers to us by our login IDs in the text, I've never noticed.) ...As far as the reason the "beta" argument holds, well, it's pretty straight forward. It's because we're in beta that we've seen a few placeholders thrown in the game.Placeholders like Naked Nick, pallete swap bosses, and giant-runner-Ancients. Add to that the fact that this (Warframe) is kind of a running idea, and things might change as we go along. Best not to cling onto something which might just be a typo. (Unless you sincerely believe the Orokin christened their deadly traps 'whatever's and made their floors out of Do Not Use From Bioshock tiles.)

 

Oh, sorry, I inferred from your sentiment that every Excalibur in the game is a different guy wearing an Excalibur that you were of the opinion that our foundry/ies churn out these different outfits for everyone. I'm not sure if that counts as mass production or what.

 

I'd ball park the subjectivity somewhere in the neighborhood of precisely as subjective as the assessment that they're not displaying any body language, give or take.

 

Right! That's exactly what I'm getting at. We don't hear them speak. I wouldn't go too far and say that there's nothing objectively different about how they move, (Nyx's playful hip sway, Ash's jubilance, and Frost's intensity...) but for the most part, it's all down to how you interpret things.

 

Oh, my mistake. I was inferring from what appeared to be explicitly factual bits drawn directly from your posts. I was just tying them together in a coherent and logical way, but it seems I've come to an inaccurate conclusion. (In what is perhaps the longest running self-demonstrating example I've ever used to try and illustrate a point.) Rather than casting doubt, it has been my intention to illuminate. I sincerely apologize if you feel like this is an argument or a dispute, or anything like that. It just seems to be as though you're really hung-up on certain interpretations of various elements in the game to such an extent that you would actively try and deny other perfectly valid theories.

[Kingashe]

Lets think of the outcome. Lets just say for a momment and think of how its going to be. Basicly. Most NOT ALL most guys will basicly just be a GIRL warframe. I don't want to see hundreds and hundreds of breats everytime i go to this game. I think this is perfectly fine how it is. If i have to play a boy just because i like his skills and format is ill play him. I dont think having gender selections is the best way. I think having more warframe types are the best. I dont wanna see boobs every time i play a game.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Kingashe

[Gestalt]

Lets think of the outcome. Lets just say for a momment and think of how its going to be. Basicly. Most NOT ALL most guys will basicly just be a GIRL warframe. I don't want to see hundreds and hundreds of breats everytime i go to this game. I think this is perfectly fine how it is. If i have to play a boy just because i like his skills and format is ill play him. I dont think having gender selections is the best way. I think having more warframe types are the best. I dont wanna see boobs every time i play a game.

Other people's choices in how they look has nothing to do with you.

I do not approve of certain color-schemes on warframes, such as green+red or bright orange+pink, but I don't and shouldn't go around lobbying for a ban on (what I PERSONALLY perceive as) distasteful customization.

Kind of getting the picture now?

Edited June 24, 2013 by Gestalt

[Kingashe]

Other people's choices in how they look has nothing to do with you.

I do not approve of certain color-schemes on warframes, such as green+red or bright orange+pink, but I don't and shouldn't go around lobbying for a ban on (what I PERSONALLY perceive as) distasteful customization.

Kind of getting the picture now?

Might Not. But doesn't mean they shouldn't hear about other peoples view/Opinon.  But i get the picture i guess?

[Gestalt]

Might Not. But doesn't mean they shouldn't hear about other peoples view/Opinon.  But i get the picture i guess?

Oh, opinions are great. And by this thread, we're getting tons of them on both sides.

Also, I don't actually think you have to worry about seeing female warframes all the time, as from my experience in this game and in other online games, far more male gamers prefer to play as males than those who choose the opposite virtual gender. Same goes for female gamers.

[Doozy84]

y'all are blowing this thing up way bigger than it needs to be.

I like the gender-locked tenno. I think it adds a dimension to the characters that is absent in a lot of video game media, its a breath of fresh air. Too much of this market is saturated with chainmail-bikini chick characters that all look like barbie dolls, and they're all selling sex. Did anyone see that new Metal Gear Solid trailer? Ten minutes long and in Afghanistan? Everybody's wearing camo except the sniper chick... she's dressed like a stripper. In the desert. NOTHING TO SEE HERE, MOVE ALONG.

In Warframe, everybody has to wear the same rubber ninja gimp suit. No matter what kind of body they have, and they all have different bodies, which is nice. Ember is a pinup bombshell. Saryn is a total vamp. Rhino is obviously a gym rat and Volt is Prince. It adds a lot of character to the game. They're all equally faceless behind their masks, and you can't pick your character based on bra size alone. Its a very noble, beautiful thing.

Don't worry about the plumbing under the suit, they're all beautiful, baby.
 

[CapricaSix]

y'all are blowing this thing up way bigger than it needs to be.

I like the gender-locked tenno. I think it adds a dimension to the characters that is absent in a lot of video game media, its a breath of fresh air. Too much of this market is saturated with chainmail-bikini chick characters that all look like barbie dolls, and they're all selling sex. Did anyone see that new Metal Gear Solid trailer? Ten minutes long and in Afghanistan? Everybody's wearing camo except the sniper chick... she's dressed like a stripper. In the desert. NOTHING TO SEE HERE, MOVE ALONG.

In Warframe, everybody has to wear the same rubber ninja gimp suit. No matter what kind of body they have, and they all have different bodies, which is nice. Ember is a pinup bombshell. Saryn is a total vamp. Rhino is obviously a gym rat and Volt is Prince. It adds a lot of character to the game. They're all equally faceless behind their masks, and you can't pick your character based on bra size alone. Its a very noble, beautiful thing.

Don't worry about the plumbing under the suit, they're all beautiful, baby.

 

You're not going to change anyone's mind with an argument like: "You're wrong, I'm right, asking for customisation is like asking for bikini-clad strippers in any game, accept my facts and carry on as if you're reborn! Hallelujah!"

 

One word, opinions. :P

 

Steve has already said the Warframes are suits and we're playing "ourselves" as tenno, that it's nothing like MOBA heroes and that we'll get customisation over the time eventually, both genders and otherwise. Just not in the form of direct genderswap. It's nice that you like how it is, because you won't lose a thing then when this happens.

 

Don't worry about what "optional features" others want too much, it won't affect you one bit. Having more options is always a good thing, not just gender. It's a start though.

[Sada_no_Fujin]

 Especially because "Tenno Reinforcements" wouldn't be the addition of a new suit, it would be the introduction of a new person. 

 

 

So Orthos, gram, grakata, glaive, dread, kunai, ect are all people? When they introduce a weapon it is also called tenno reinforcements. if anything that supports the opposite opinion,. As when they say reinforcements they usually give you wepons, which are equipment like suits and armor.

[Raptros]

I've always imagined my frames as separate people and not just "Raptros wearing a different set of armor". Knowhatamsayin?

 

Although, on the whole Gender idea, I've always been drawn to the idea of rarity and exclusivity. I like to imagine when the Tenno are first introduced to the warframes, they are either assigned or they chose a gender specific frame and train with it for the rest of their lives. If you look closely the armor and webbing looks very organic. I like to believe that the Tenno almost mold with the frame, fusing together to create harmony, so they can truly master their "second skin".

 

But...thats just me.

[Ariarch]

I see them as suits and not characters. It makes more sense that way, since my brother and our friend that we play with both use Loki all the time. I imagine that they're both different Tenno equipped with the same Warframe.

 

It also works better that way to my mind, because they both have their own personal color schemes and weapon loadouts which support their identities more than a vague characterization that is never expressed in-game anyway

 

I also feel like I'm playing "my Ember" and not "the Ember." I think a gender choice for each frame would be a great way to support players with this mentality, and it wouldn't stop others from playing the canon male Excalibur or female Mag, for example. 

This^ 

[Kachocalvo]

From the Lore thread https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/9151-warframe-lore-database-no-cats-in-the-future/ (I know it's not official, but...)

 

Tenno are often referred to as one in the same with their warframes, which shows how important the exo-armors are in Tenno society. - Lotus

 

I guess this means that each time we "build" a new Warframe, we are not just building a new combat suit for ourselves, but instead "gaining control" over a different Tenno, may be awakening him/her from cryostasis. That makes me feel "building" a frame seems not really the proper term.

 

But it would explain why warframes are only male/female (you know, archetypes and so...)

 

Personally, i'd prefer it the other way round, I am this particular Tenno and I use different Warframes that allow me to use different abilities.

[theammostore]

Warframes never, not even within the cinematic trailers, display any sort of personality, either by body language, actions, or speaking (since they don't speak) that differs in any significant way from other Warframes.  We have no reason to conclude these are individuals.

 

On the contrary. In the trailers I saw a lot of personality with the frames. Ash, for one, was very animalistic and bloodthristy, being hunched over when standing like Kratos does in his games. Mag seemed to sit up more squarely and straightly in the open beta trailer, while Rhino was more forward, hand on his hips and not legs, so at a moment's notice he could rise up and attack. Loki, in particular, seemed to always be hunched over, crouched, and moving impishly around a lot, always mobile and illusive. Nyx, at the end of the E3 trailer, poses in a position indicating boredom, like she was expecting more.

 

Look closer at the details, the personality is there. You don't need someone to speak to have them be a character.

 

EDIT: It's been a while since i've been in this thread. This was the first post I had to respond to.

Edited June 25, 2013 by theammostore

[CerebrateJoe]

I agree.  I want to have a gender select.  I know dev doesn't want to do this, but I want them to.  I don't want alternate versions or themes.  I want a bunch of different warframes and gender select.