Analysis and suggestions on a debated weapon - Daikyu

[Leyers_of_facade]

People complaining on daikyu all the time is seriously annoying and it is already a weapon that suffered a lot. Daikyu when nerfed usually takes a 20 dmg nerf, while when other weapons get a "nerf" it is 0.4.

In general, Daikyu will only 1 hit in the following cases.

• Ultra lights without overshield within 15m
• Ultra lights, lights, medium (without overshields and varies from frame to frame) when 15m+ with spring loaded
• Any aside from super tanks (ability protected) upon headshot within 15m
• Any upon headshot over 15m (with exception of rumbled)

This brings to the question, is Daikyu strong? or no. The answer is, it is messed up.

Strength of Daikyu

• Strong damage when spring loaded is used. when people run their frame towards medium / light style, it is usually a instakill (or fatal with <10 hp) upon 15m+ shots
• Fast flight speed, 200m/s is quite a good speed as it allows your arrow to fly to your targets generally within 0.2 second (rarely do I see people fight over 40m in general, especially with bows and not sniper / opticor)
• In comparison to other bows, suffers less on hipfire RNG (Might need some comfirmation on this)
• Low vertical drop compared to other bows   No vertical drop compared to other bows (changed this thanks to information from knaimhe)

Weakness of Daikyu

• Hipfire RNG. Yes, compared to other bows, it is general less, but it still is a major problem with daikyu
• Excessively high charge time. 1.75 second of charge time compared to a TTK of 0.8 or less on autos is a lot, and to par it off, you only get 1 shot every 1.75 second, miss your shot? you are in trouble.
• Weapon discharges after a small amount of time, it is only present in daikyu
• Cannot fire without full charge
• Without spring loaded's buff, it does less damage than paris which have a 1 second charge time.
• When people go tanky, it makes it a lot harder to get kills / finish up. While you can drop their health into the ranges of 30-50hp, accounting for charge time of 1.75, flight time of 0.2, change weapon to secondary of ~0.8, time to kill will always exceed 3 second (you need to aim, shoot, account for secondary weapon time required to kill, chasing after that enemy who runs all over the place... etc) even if you have accuracy equivalent to an aimbot. In comparison, most auto rifles have a time to kill of ~0.8 or less. This means all you have to do is land 25% of your shots, and you will kill that daikyu user (assuming he/she is a medium, if it is a light, probably 15% is enough) before you die. Daikyu users also suffer from other people taking their kills as pushing a target to ~30hp will mean a braton / boltor /soma/other weapons will most likely mince your target before you can finish up.

What the exact problem with daikyu.

• Shotgun-kyu, as the idea suggests, people use it like it is a shotgun -> charge up, run into pointblank range and boom, their health is almost gone, 1-2 hit melee and probably that is a kill.
• Hipfire accuracy. Honestly you are going to charge 1.75 second and hope that RNG will be nice to you? good luck on that. This means that it is best to always not hipfire with daikyu, it means mobility is often limited and it makes it a lot easier to kill them by the side / back by quick shots with semi / burst / snipers.
• The inability to guarentee kills on tanks no matter the range. Great you landed a 50m shot, but that target is a rhino. Now good luck chasing him across half the map while his shield regens after a brief time and can tank your second shot. "Fun"

Obviously I do have suggestions on this weapon.

• Create a new mod / replace spring loaded. This new mod / changed mod should give Daikyu the following, increased buff when longer range, reduction in damage when closer range. If it is a new mod, then it cannot be used with spring loaded obviously. Make sure Daikyu actually kills targets after 20m / 25m and make sure it doesn't does enough to be used as shotgun 2.0 at point blank. My idea will be -20% when <5m, +40% when 15m+ (same as spring loaded), +80% when 25/30m+ (this number can be discussed) 
• Removing the RNG accuracy, while at the same time, revert flight speed of daikyu to 150m (originally before the buff) or 180m (similar to current paris prime, so as to make daikyu "better" than paris in this sense as a long range weapon). If people want to keep their lovely 200m/s shot, they can always just use the mod "lucky shot", it pretty much does the same thing anyway.
• Buffing plan B mod or making a mod just for daikyu (other bows don't suffer as much due to their relative short charge time, able to half charge and able to use soaring strike mod) to include the aspect of reducing time delay in changing weapon. This will make it actually possible to finish up kills you actually did.
• Oro exclusive for shots over 20m/30m (again, these number are only examples, it can be discussed), it isn't fun that you lose matches often because you don't pointblank with your daikyu. Chocolate's picture in the discord groups is an example http://anony.ws/image/JTG0 , I got many of my own as well in my steam account, but you can see my point with this. Yes, it is funny at times, but it tends to get more annoying and discouraging when it happens all the time. 
• This last point is something that might need to be confirmed (could use some help from the conclave community to test this out), could be just a bug, could be intended, or could just be my inaccurate perception (thinking that it hit the person behind when it didn't). From what I see, lined up shots may or may not kill the person down the road. What I mean is, if your shot goes through multiple targets, (anyone who tried bows in pve should know what I mean), even if the first target dies, the one behind may survive the shot. I am not sure how this mechanic works in pvp, but if it is intended, I will like it to be changed to that other targets who got hit by the dead bodies will always die no matter what, just to reward nicely made shots.

To conclude, in this thread I gave the strength, weakness of Daikyu. The suggestions I am giving isn't focusing on buffing / nerfing the weapon but generally to fix the weapon's problem and to make it more of a mid-long range weapon and not a shotgun (Daikyu sometimes reminds me of eaglehorn bow in hearthstone, you have a bow? better wack your opponent with it rather than shooting it), 

Edited June 5, 2016 by 14159265358979323846

[----Legacy----]

Can we aldo have SLBH rarity changed to uncommon? the reason for this small change is this

My big brother gave me a Daikyu and I've been trying to use it a lot, even in conclave which I started playing a few months ago (I'm on conclave rank 2 iirc) but after talking with him (my brother), he told me to pick any other bow unless I decide to go against "the big boys", mostly because daikyu seems to be balanced only keeping in mind its rare augment mod which gets disabled for recruit conditioning, making it a slow bow with low damage at any range and turning paris into a straight upgrade while in this mode (anyways with the amount of boltor bullets flying everywhere in RC, using any bow is almost a sucide)

About the oro steals, I guess I can relate to that with this pic:

 

so even tough I disagree  with some changes (like messing again with daikyu's flight speed once again) your idea has my support and my +1

[Nazrethim]

I agree with your suggestions, in particular the latter two, a nice shot should be rewarded.

btw is "shotgun-kyu" the name of the tactic now? xD

Edited June 5, 2016 by Nazrethim

[_BUSHIDO_]

If you are going to make daikyu trash at close range people will just use Paris and here you are you have the same problem with more damage. I think now it's better to leave the weapon as it is except for the accuracy issue. Paris is already a good alternative weapon; The reason why is not popular as Daikyu is because players chose the have spring load bonus while paying with slow charge. 

Agree with the speed change

[Leyers_of_facade]

47 minutes ago, _BUSHIDO_ said:

If you are going to make daikyu trash at close range people will just use Paris and here you are you have the same problem with more damage. I think now it's better to leave the weapon as it is except for the accuracy issue. Paris is already a good alternative weapon; The reason why is not popular as Daikyu is because players chose the have spring load bonus while paying with slow charge. 

Agree with the speed change

Rather than making daikyu become "Trash" at close range, it is more to balance the boost in longer range. Even with -20%, the damage is decent actually, (roughly equivalent to dread after accounting for bleed)  and if it is a new mod which isn't compatible with spring loaded, I think it could be a good alternative for some people

Edited June 5, 2016 by 14159265358979323846

[SevenLetterKWord]

Oh yes, the Daikyu. Or, as I like to call it, the DaiCancer.

The OP is riddled with misleading assumptions. Allow me to dispel some:

Spoiler

On 6/3/2016 at 11:25 PM, 14159265358979323846 said:

People complaining on daikyu all the time is seriously annoying and it is already a weapon that suffered a lot. Daikyu when nerfed usually takes a 20 dmg nerf, while when other weapons get a "nerf" it is 0.4.

Where's the logic?
If a high rate of fire weapon gets nerfed by a small amount of damage per shot, it could still be a very significant nerf.

A rich man with $100 is taxed $10.
A poor man with $10 is taxed $1.
The rich man complains that he is taxed more; he believes this to be unfair. Do you agree with the rich man's reasoning?

Quote

Strength of Daikyu

• Low vertical drop compared to other bows

You mean exactly zero vertical drop? Daikyu arrows travel in straight lines.

Quote

Weakness of Daikyu

• Weapon discharges after a small amount of time, it is only present in daikyu

I would not call ~10^{[citation needed]} seconds a "small amount of time". Not in Warframe.
Maybe if we're baking cakes, 10 seconds is a "small amount of time".
In the fast paced environment of Conclave, 10 seconds is extremely lenient.

On 6/3/2016 at 11:25 PM, 14159265358979323846 said:

Weakness of Daikyu

• Excessively high charge time. 1.75 second of charge time compared to a TTK of 0.8 or less on autos is a lot, and to par it off, you only get 1 shot every 1.75 second, miss your shot? you are in trouble.

You are not in the least bit "in trouble".
Maybe you would be "in trouble" if the Daikyu required you to remain in the open as you charged up your next shot.
This is not the case.

On 6/3/2016 at 11:25 PM, 14159265358979323846 said:

Weakness of Daikyu

• accounting for charge time of 1.75, flight time of 0.2, change weapon to secondary of ~0.8, time to kill will always exceed 3 second

You are literally miscalculating TTK.
TTK does not include the "charge time of 1.75".

On 6/3/2016 at 11:25 PM, 14159265358979323846 said:

Weakness of Daikyu

• When people go tanky, it makes it a lot harder to get kills / finish up.

First of all, you are assuming that all builds are equally easy to land hits on.
Secondly, even under that assumption, this "weakness" also happens to be a "weakness" of basically every other weapon.
Of course tanky frames will be harder to kill. That is the nature of tankiness.

As a closing note, here is a quote concerning the Daikyu:

On 6/2/2016 at 4:16 PM, Pun-chee said:

Could people stop defending Daikyu as "high skill weapon"? It's not, it wasn't back when flight speed was slower and it certainly is not at it's current state. Draw it, release if you face somebody, draw again. You can run around for 5sec^{[citation needed]} with a fully drawn Daikyu, if you didn't shoot it, just draw again. That's it. It's actually a "noobtube" with that current arrow flight speed.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Knaimhe

[Leyers_of_facade]

32 minutes ago, Knaimhe said:

Oh yes, the Daikyu. Or, as I like to call it, the DaiCancer.

The OP is riddled with misleading assumptions. Allow me to dispel some:

1. Where's the logic?
If a high rate of fire weapon gets nerfed by a small amount of damage per shot, it could still be a very significant nerf.

A rich man with $100 is taxed $10.
A poor man with $10 is taxed $1.
The rich man complains that he is taxed more; he believes this to be unfair. Do you agree with the rich man's reasoning?

2. You mean exactly zero vertical drop? Daikyu arrows travel in straight lines.

3. I would not call ~10^{[citation needed]} seconds a "small amount of time". Not in Warframe.
Maybe if we're baking cakes, 10 seconds is a "small amount of time".
In the fast paced environment of Conclave, 10 seconds is extremely lenient.

4. You are not in the least bit "in trouble".
Maybe you would be "in trouble" if the Daikyu required you to remain in the open as you charged up your next shot.
This is not the case.

5. You are literally miscalculating TTK.
TTK does not include the "charge time of 1.75".

6. First of all, you are assuming that all builds are equally easy to land hits on.
Secondly, even under that assumption, this "weakness" also happens to be a "weakness" of basically every other weapon.
Of course tanky frames will be harder to kill. That is the nature of tankiness.

7. As a closing note, here is a quote concerning the Daikyu:

Ah, nice arguments, haven't seen them around in forums for a while. I will divide my reply (and your response) in a few parts to make it easier for me to reply.

1. Ok, I didn't place the exact stats around, that is my mistake. Daikyu's nerf of roughly 20 dmg twice (total of 40 when added all values in impact, puncture, slash) out of a bit over 220 (second time was at 200) at that time is roughly a 9.1% nerf(second time will be ~ 10%). 0.4 was refering to prisma gorgon, at that time its damage is 28 if I am not mistaken (correct me if I am wrong), a 0.4 damage nerf is about 1.5%. I was refering to daikyu's nerf being more "punishing" in general and yet it still takes a lot of the complains. 

2. Fair point, my mistake there.

3. Actually it is 5 seconds. 5 seconds in warframe isn't exactly a long time either, especially when you have to aim at ninjas. Under the assumption that the player doesn't discharge shots, the charge time of 1.75 will account for 26% of the total time (1.75/(1.75+5))=0.259. Yes, I know this isn't an accurate calculation on whether 5 second is short, but well, it isn't exactly a long period of time.

4. Yes, you don't need to be open, but unless you are going to stay behind walls all the time (which isn't always a good idea in pubs as it makes it easier for people to backstab / sidestab you), you have reduced mobility thanks to not being able to use roll, melee (air melee in general) to cover more distances / more variety in movement. Reduced movement can easily be a death sentence if you are facing someone with decent aim.

5. My TTK's calculation method may not be the best way nor is it the same as yours apparently. However, unlike autos and semis, you do not immediately get to fire shots after you kill your first target (assuming you don't double kill or more with 1 arrow), true, first target may take a shorter time as you can pre-charge, however, consecutive targets will require at least 3 seconds (from my calculation), autos are not restricted by this so long they don't use up their ammo, same with semis. My action of adding in charge time is mainly to account for this fact.

6. The problem isn't just with tanky frames being harder to kill, it is on the fact that unlike high fire rate autos, decently large magazine semis, Daikyu's main problem is its difficulty of ensuring kills IF you land your shot. The time required to change to secondary weapons / charging in to finish up with melee usually is too much as it can easily mean up to 2 second of not even dealing damage to your target, making it difficult to finish target off, resulting in a likely situation of either 1. someone takes your kill off and 2. their shield regens as you chase around your target. On the other hand with autos / semis, landing a few more shots can be done without the mess present with bows, as so long you still have shots on your magazine, you can continue to fire with that weapon anyway. My suggestion mainly focuses on making it quicker to change to secondary weapon as well as allowing more damage with further range as a potential solution so as to solve this issue.

7. Very true, Daikyu doesn't have a "very high skill cap" as thought by many people, but it isn't exactly low either. The flight speed buff made Daikyu a lot easier to use while not solving actual problems that Daikyu faces. That is why my suggestions include reverting flightspeed buff while giving accuracy back. Also, the dmg reduction in closer range also pushes Daikyu towards a more skilled weapon rather than a shotgun 2.0. 

Edited June 5, 2016 by 14159265358979323846
Fixing structure

[SevenLetterKWord]

10 hours ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

Ah, nice arguments, haven't seen them around in forums for a while. I will divide my reply (and your response) in a few parts to make it easier for me to reply.

Entering two newlines in the middle of a block quote in the editor will automatically divide the quote.

10 hours ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

1. Ok, I didn't place the exact stats around, that is my mistake. Daikyu's nerf of roughly 20 dmg twice (total of 40 when added all values in impact, puncture, slash) out of a bit over 220 (second time was at 200) at that time is roughly a 9.1% nerf(second time will be ~ 10%). 0.4 was refering to prisma gorgon, at that time its damage is 28 if I am not mistaken (correct me if I am wrong), a 0.4 damage nerf is about 1.5%. I was refering to daikyu's nerf being more "punishing" in general and yet it still takes a lot of the complains.

It's still irrelevant to compare nerf amounts.
Imagine if the Karak had 300 DPS and was nerfed to 150, and the Latron had 200 and was nerfed to 120. Relatively speaking, the Karak received the greater nerf, but it still outshines the Latron, because it was more OP to begin with.

10 hours ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

4. Yes, you don't need to be open, but unless you are going to stay behind walls all the time (which isn't always a good idea in pubs as it makes it easier for people to backstab / sidestab you), you have reduced mobility thanks to not being able to use roll, melee (air melee in general) to cover more distances / more variety in movement. Reduced movement can easily be a death sentence if you are facing someone with decent aim.

You can still roll and melee while using the Daikyu, you just don't get to hold drawn arrows at the same time. If you find that you need to retreat, you remain fully capable of doing so. The Daikyu requires minimal combat presence and can still effectively secure kills.

10 hours ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

5. My TTK's calculation method may not be the best way nor is it the same as yours apparently. However, unlike autos and semis, you do not immediately get to fire shots after you kill your first target (assuming you don't double kill or more with 1 arrow), true, first target may take a shorter time as you can pre-charge, however, consecutive targets will require at least 3 seconds (from my calculation), autos are not restricted by this so long they don't use up their ammo, same with semis. My action of adding in charge time is mainly to account for this fact.

No, your TTK calculation is literally mathematically incorrect. I do not use the word "literally" lightly.

On 6/3/2016 at 11:25 PM, 14159265358979323846 said:

accounting for charge time of 1.75, flight time of 0.2, change weapon to secondary of ~0.8, time to kill will always exceed 3 second

Even if we accept all your assumptions, 1.75+0.2+0.8 = 2.75. Last I checked, 2.75 does not "exceed 3 second".
Egregious arithmetic failures aside, the assumptions you make are still flawed.
TTK does not include charge time, as the Daikyu is capable of quite liberally holding drawn arrows.
The flight time is insubstantial; I doubt it is 0.2s. Additionally, the flight time can overlap with the time to change to secondary.

10 hours ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

6. The problem isn't just with tanky frames being harder to kill, it is on the fact that unlike high fire rate autos, decently large magazine semis, Daikyu's main problem is its difficulty of ensuring kills IF you land your shot.

As it should be. If it were easy to ensure kills, the Daikyu would be the de facto one-shot cannon.
It is already broken, there is no need to make the Daikyu grossly, grossly overpowered.

10 hours ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

The time required to change to secondary weapons / charging in to finish up with melee usually is too much as it can easily mean up to 2 second of not even dealing damage to your target, making it difficult to finish target off, resulting in a likely situation of either 1. someone takes your kill off and 2. their shield regens as you chase around your target.

Firstly, shields take approximately ten seconds to regenerate.
Secondly, when have killsteals ever been relevant in the balancing of a weapon?
All weapons are susceptible to killsteals. I imagine the Daikyu, given its high one-shot potential, is often less susceptible than others.

10 hours ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

7. Very true, Daikyu doesn't have a "very high skill cap" as thought by many people, but it isn't exactly low either. The flight speed buff made Daikyu a lot easier to use while not solving actual problems that Daikyu faces. That is why my suggestions include reverting flightspeed buff while giving accuracy back. Also, the dmg reduction in closer range also pushes Daikyu towards a more skilled weapon rather than a shotgun 2.0. 

No, the Daikyu has an immensely high skill cap... in theory. In practice, it is not a high skill weapon. Daikyu shots are spammed more often than not, as unaimed arrows are just as lethal as aimed ones. Even low skill play can net kills.
The Daikyu is the ultimate guerilla tactics weapon, and it is far too rewarding at low skill.
(§4: "The Daikyu requires minimal combat presence and can still effectively secure kills.")

[Leyers_of_facade]

13 hours ago, Knaimhe said:

Entering two newlines in the middle of a block quote in the editor will automatically divide the quote.

thanks for the tip there

Quote

It's still irrelevant to compare nerf amounts.
Imagine if the Karak had 300 DPS and was nerfed to 150, and the Latron had 200 and was nerfed to 120. Relatively speaking, the Karak received the greater nerf, but it still outshines the Latron, because it was more OP to begin with.

Well, at the beginning I was just using these stats to show that Daikyu unlike many angry forum-ers think.... it is already one of the most nerfed, nerfed all the time and at a ratio higher than other weapons (a 0.4 nerf on prisma got tons of flames, a 20 dmg nerf on daikyu was overlooked and not even known [many people even thought it got buffed])

Using your example, that is to say if you are comparing weapons where sheer DPS can be easily compared, then yes we can see which weapon is "better" (on another matter, there is still a large variety in dps with the autos and semis). If accounting the charge time of 1.75 in DPS calculation, Daikyu's dps will always be lower than pretty much most of the weapons, and according to this logic the inital damage nerf it is  is thus not even justified (although to some extent it is)

13 hours ago, Knaimhe said:

You can still roll and melee while using the Daikyu, you just don't get to hold drawn arrows at the same time. If you find that you need to retreat, you remain fully capable of doing so. The Daikyu requires minimal combat presence and can still effectively secure kills.

The problem is, if you already charged up your shot, and you want to use roll / melee you would have to discharge the shot, the 1.75 second is therefore "wasted" in some sense. Other bows do have this but it is less severe, autos and semis simply don't face this problem

Quote

No, your TTK calculation is literally mathematically incorrect. I do not use the word "literally" lightly.

Even if we accept all your assumptions, 1.75+0.2+0.8 = 2.75. Last I checked, 2.75 does not "exceed 3 second".
Egregious arithmetic failures aside, the assumptions you make are still flawed.
TTK does not include charge time, as the Daikyu is capable of quite liberally holding drawn arrows.
The flight time is insubstantial; I doubt it is 0.2s. Additionally, the flight time can overlap with the time to change to secondary.

The extra 0.25 was mainly accounting for the fact that you will also need to finish up with your secondary weapon, as well as the need to actually know your shot landed/not landing and make decision of changing weapon. That takes time as well.

Anyway, if you believe TTK should not include charge time in the case for bows, then how will you compare different bows? If by sheer damage, then weapons like mk1 paris and rakta cernos with its low charge time will be considered on the same ground as weapons like paris, paris prime (yes paris prime is to some extent in a weird position as well) and even Daikyu, and by sheer impact, puncture, slash conversion, mk1 paris and rakta cernos will be effectively useless (this is on the theoretical ground, not practical) and by that assumption, they will require some crazy buff which to some extent isn't as needed currently.

The idea of including charge when comparing bows while not including it when you compare it with other weapons will be a nice case of special pleading.

and no, don't use flight speed as the comparison factor, there is hardly anyway to compare those weapon in that sense as well

Quote

As it should be. If it were easy to ensure kills, the Daikyu would be the de facto one-shot cannon.
It is already broken, there is no need to make the Daikyu grossly, grossly overpowered.

Firstly, shields take approximately ten seconds to regenerate.
Secondly, when have killsteals ever been relevant in the balancing of a weapon?
All weapons are susceptible to killsteals. I imagine the Daikyu, given its high one-shot potential, is often less susceptible than others.

Not really less susceptible, once they can tank your initial hit, it is quite easy for others to take that kill. If you have noticed my suggestions, it is to buff damage with further ranged shot so as to reward well made shots, but to balance it, there is the cost of having less damage closer. Also, it is to make sure it is to some extent, possible to finish up with your kill in a 8 player arena. Considering how they might only require ~ 2-3 bullet on a fast auto, 1 shot on a semi while it will take you time to both change weapon, and aim. Reducing the time required to change weapon is to some sense reducing this problem. If you think it might "upset" the balance which to some extent it wouldn't as you still need to shoot with your secondary, making it exclusive with plan B could solve this problem as it makes the situation where the player have to decide with quicker changing weapon, or faster fire rate.

Also, depending on the damage increase ratio vs range, it could be easy, could be hard. (20m being the next stage might be easy, 45 will make it quite hard)

Yes, kill steals had not been revelent in balancing weapons in the past, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't consider it in the present / future. Bringing new ideas / reasons to "fix" a weapon may or may not be a good change. To begin with, why does opticor require a really bright laser showing everyone (which isn't even accurate) where the shot is going to be?

Quote

No, the Daikyu has an immensely high skill cap... in theory. In practice, it is not a high skill weapon. Daikyu shots are spammed more often than not, as unaimed arrows are just as lethal as aimed ones. Even low skill play can net kills.
The Daikyu is the ultimate guerilla tactics weapon, and it is far too rewarding at low skill.
(§4: "The Daikyu requires minimal combat presence and can still effectively secure kills.")

Daikyu's ammo pool is a weird problem. With 20 ammo, by directly spamming shots, one can easily use them up quickly, on the other hand, if you play "safe" and use your arrows wisely, 20 arrow can last some good time. Generally speaking, I don't really have a suggestion on this, although if they can make the ammo mechanic to change slightly by making a mod which has an effect of rewarding well shots such as "upon kill gain ammo" and after that nerf max ammo (needs to be in this order), it might fix the spam shot problem, although personally, 20 arrows even if I don't spam shots, can still run out and ammo boxes could sometimes be a rare sight thanks to the spamming of other people.

 

Anyway, I am very curious how you will calculate TTK for bows without making a mess between comparison of bows and comparison of other weapons.

Edited June 6, 2016 by 14159265358979323846
fixing sentences which conveyed the wrong idea

[SevenLetterKWord]

1 hour ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

Well, at the beginning I was just using these stats to show that Daikyu unlike many angry forum-ers think.... it is already one of the most nerfed, nerfed all the time and at a ratio higher than other weapons

"Most nerfed" does not mean "balanced".

1 hour ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

the inital damage nerf it is not even justified (although to some extent it is)

Well said.
"My name is not John... although to some extent, it is."

1 hour ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

The problem is, if you already charged up your shot, and you want to use roll / melee you would have to discharge the shot, the 1.75 second is therefore "wasted" in some sense. Other bows do have this but it is less severe, autos and semis simply don't face this problem

It takes zero seconds to release the shot before performing disruptive maneuvers.

1 hour ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

The extra 0.25 was mainly accounting for the fact that you will also need to finish up with your secondary weapon, as well as the need to actually know your shot landed/not landing and make decision of changing weapon. That takes time as well.

Anyway, if you believe TTK should not include charge time in the case for bows, then how will you compare different bows? If by sheer damage, then weapons like mk1 paris and rakta cernos with its low charge time will be considered on the same ground as weapons like paris, paris prime (yes paris prime is to some extent in a weird position as well) and even Daikyu, and by sheer impact, puncture, slash conversion, mk1 paris and rakta cernos will be effectively useless (this is on the theoretical ground, not practical) and by that assumption, they will require some crazy buff which to some extent isn't as needed currently.

TTK is a theoretical calculation which assumes optimal conditions.
The TTK for bows does not include the charge time of the first shot, just as the TTK for guns does not include the reload time of the first magazine.
For example, the TTK of the Opticor is zero. If, hypothetically, the Opticor would not charge unless a target was aimed at, then the Opticor's TTK would include the charge time.
Additionally, the calculations for TTK assume 100% accuracy. This is why the TTK values of shotguns like the Strun are so low.

1 hour ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

The idea of including charge when comparing bows while not including it when you compare it with other weapons will be a nice case of special pleading.
and no, don't use flight speed as the comparison factor, there is hardly anyway to compare those weapon in that sense as well

Good thing nobody is thinking that, then.

1 hour ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

Not really less susceptible, once they can tank your initial hit, it is quite easy for others to take that kill.

Uhg, are we really still discussing killstealing?
The world of killsteals is balanced in parallels. If it's easy for them to steal your kill, it's just as easy for you to steal their kill.
An automatic weapon user weakens the shields of another player? Looks like a perfect setup for you to perform a one-shot killsteal.
(In fact, as the Daikyu is weighted towards puncture damage, I would wager that it is more often the perpetrator of killstealing than the victim.)
Let this be the end of the "killsteal" talk.

1 hour ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

Yes, kill steals had not been revelent in balancing weapons in the past, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't consider it in the present / future. Bringing new ideas / reasons to "fix" a weapon may or may not be a good change. To begin with, why does opticor require a really bright laser showing everyone (which isn't even accurate) where the shot is going to be?

No, you're just introducing complications to obscure the Daikyu's brokenness.
Secondly, the Opticor's laser serves to telegraph impending doom. This should come as no particular surprise to anyone.

1 hour ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

If you have noticed my suggestions, it is to buff damage with further ranged shot so as to reward well made shots, but to balance it, there is the cost of having less damage closer.

Oh, sure, I noticed "your" suggestion.
I noticed it the first time, when Nazrethim posted it, and I already expressed my approval of the idea.

1 hour ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

Also, it is to make sure it is to some extent, possible to finish up with your kill in a 8 player arena. Considering how they might only require ~ 2-3 bullet on a fast auto, 1 shot on a semi while it will take you time to both change weapon, and aim. Reducing the time required to change weapon is to some sense reducing this problem. If you think it might "upset" the balance which to some extent it wouldn't as you still need to shoot with your secondary, making it exclusive with plan B could solve this problem as it makes the situation where the player have to decide with quicker changing weapon, or faster fire rate.

There are already holster speed mods. The Daikyu does not need any more help in this regard.
You are complaining about the defining difficulty of using the Daikyu. This difficulty must exist, otherwise the Daikyu would be grossly, grossly overpowered.
It's as if a Tigris user were to complain: "Dang, the damage falloff on the Tigris really sucks. The Tigris should perform better at range."
It's as if an Opticor user were to complain: "Dang, the charge mechanic on the Opticor really sucks. The Opticor should be capable of holding charges."
It's as if a Jat Kittag user were to complain: "Dang, the lack of knockdown on quick melee slams on the Jat Kittag really sucks. The Jat Kittag should be capable of dealing knockdown on quick melee slams."
The Daikyu is already too rewarding of low skill play; there is no need to make it easier to use.

1 hour ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

Daikyu's ammo pool is a weird problem... Generally speaking, I don't really have a suggestion on this, although if they can make the ammo mechanic to change slightly by making a mod which has an effect of rewarding well shots such as "upon kill gain ammo" and after that nerf max ammo (needs to be in this order), it might fix the spam shot problem

This would only work if the Daikyu were incapable of collecting normal ammo boxes, and instead slowly regenerated ammo over time.
Still, the Daikyu's ammo capacity is too great.
Twenty arrows? Obscene.
Compare it with the other instakill-possible weapons:
The Opticor only has 10 shots.
The Tigris only has 7 duplex shots.

[Leyers_of_facade]

1 hour ago, Knaimhe said:

"Most nerfed" does not mean "balanced".

Indeed, it can get nerfed too much in some cases.

Quote

Well said.
"My name is not John... although to some extent, it is."

ah, I didn't typed clearly what I mean there, fixed it and kept the correction there

Quote

It takes zero seconds to release the shot before performing disruptive maneuvers.

Now, what if you want to do that mid-charge? There is always going to be a chance where you are going to waste charge. Shooting the shot at a time where you don't even have a target available for a solid shot (eg, they are behind cover, obstacles...etc) just to perform these maneuvers can likely waste your ammo.

Quote

TTK is a theoretical calculation which assumes optimal conditions.
The TTK for bows does not include the charge time of the first shot, just as the TTK for guns does not include the reload time of the first magazine.
For example, the TTK of the Opticor is zero. If, hypothetically, the Opticor would not charge unless a target was aimed at, then the Opticor's TTK would include the charge time.
Additionally, the calculations for TTK assume 100% accuracy. This is why the TTK values of shotguns like the Strun are so low.

Still haven't answered my question on how to solve TTK comparison between bows. There is a few problems related to TTK calculation in bows.

Charge time, for bows that won't 1-hit kill on the test frame (not sure if you used ash or excal for the other stats, but that exact loadout), are they included? If including the charge time between shots, what do you deal with the lack of need to full charge to kill on the second shot for bows such as paris, dread, paris prime? 

Also, according to your assumption, Daikyu's TTK (can be calculated with or without springloaded to make 2 set of data) when it can 1-shot, will have a TTK of 0. This will also mean a buff of 5x damage  will have no changes to that TTK as it will always be 0, that makes everything just a joke from that on. A 100 times damage buff will mean "nothing has changed" and is thus according to your assumption, "perfectly fine", when in fact it is nothing near that.

This brings to the problem, if charge time were to be added to actually make a difference between bows, then it won't be fair for reloads of other gun. The best way to solve this can be from using an alternative way of calculating TTK, where the value of  [Reload Time / (Magazine size / Rounds to kill)] is added to the current value, so as to allow the calculation of charge time for bows.

To be honest, I do want to know the result of that kind of calculation, it might be able to reduce the problem of shotguns in those charts as well.

 

Quote

Good thing nobody is thinking that, then.

indeed, was just worried someone will pop that out due to the quality of feedbacks I have seen in different parts of the warframe forums.. I was pointing that one out as a solution that some random forum-er might suggest, considering there is only 3 differences between the bows in general, flight speed, effective damage ( bleed on dread), charge time. Considering how charge time and damage is related in the balancing, the usage of either as TTK will not be a pleasant idea.

Quote

No, you're just introducing complications to obscure the Daikyu's brokenness.
Secondly, the Opticor's laser serves to telegraph impending doom. This should come as no particular surprise to anyone.

I was using this example to show that different weapons may get ideas / suggestions which differ from previous changes or other weapons at that time.

Quote

Oh, sure, I noticed "your" suggestion.
I noticed it the first time, when Nazrethim posted it, and I already expressed my approval of the idea.

Actually several of the suggestions I placed here had been similar or already suggested by me in different comments / threads starting from a few months ago before to begin with. I think it is best to have a full thread with more information to deal with the rising Daikyu complains as I don't believe reviving every single one of them is a better solution, especially since many of the older threads I made are not only focused on daikyu (or bows), but on a vast number of weapons and abilities and there had been many changes since then.

Quote

There are already holster speed mods. The Daikyu does not need any more help in this regard.
 

0.8 is with the holster mod. That is actually some problem, and if adapting the idea of making holster speed faster to be a mod which cannot be used with plan B, then it serves as an alternative, rather than just a "help" (which sounds like a buff in that sense)

Quote

This would only work if the Daikyu were incapable of collecting normal ammo boxes, and instead slowly regenerated ammo over time.
Still, the Daikyu's ammo capacity is too great.
Twenty arrows? Obscene.
Compare it with the other instakill-possible weapons:
The Opticor only has 10 shots.
The Tigris only has 7 duplex shots.

Full charge opticor is a guarantee kill, Daikyu is still quite some distance from that. We also need to account for the fact that one is a hitscan, another is a "projectile". One can shoot without full, the other can't. Tigris doesn't have a very annoying requirement of charging up shots, although to some extent, it's "reload" is of a similar case. Daikyu and Opticor have many differences, even more so with tigris. Comparing them directly just because they have a chance to instakill is hardly even logical as aside from Opticor, Daikyu and tigris have its own mechanics whih determine whether you kill or not.

Adding in the slowly regenerated ammo over time and not being able to collect ammo from the boxes is a decent idea when added to my original solution, although I believe it might make things more complicated when it isn't needed.

 

Edited June 6, 2016 by 14159265358979323846

[SevenLetterKWord]

8 hours ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

Indeed, it can get nerfed too much in some cases.

But it hasn't been, and pointing out that it's been nerfed in the past doesn't mean that it's balanced. If a weapon starts out five times as powerful as other weapons, then gets nerfed to four, then three, then two, is it now balanced? No, it's still twice as powerful as other weapons. A history of nerfing is irrelevant in present balancing.

8 hours ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

Now, what if you want to do that mid-charge? There is always going to be a chance where you are going to waste charge. Shooting the shot at a time where you don't even have a target available for a solid shot (eg, they are behind cover, obstacles...etc) just to perform these maneuvers can likely waste your ammo.

If all the other players are out of sight, then why are you even performing evasive maneuvers in the first place?
Yes, there will be some circumstances where a partial charge may be discarded. But this no great tragedy, and it's not a unique inconvenience of the Daikyu. It's not even a unique inconvenience of bows; gun users must also sometimes discard partial reloads.

8 hours ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

Still haven't answered my question on how to solve TTK comparison between bows. There is a few problems related to TTK calculation in bows.

Charge time, for bows that won't 1-hit kill on the test frame (not sure if you used ash or excal for the other stats, but that exact loadout), are they included? If including the charge time between shots, what do you deal with the lack of need to full charge to kill on the second shot for bows such as paris, dread, paris prime? 

Also, according to your assumption, Daikyu's TTK (can be calculated with or without springloaded to make 2 set of data) when it can 1-shot, will have a TTK of 0. This will also mean a buff of 5x damage  will have no changes to that TTK as it will always be 0, that makes everything just a joke from that on. A 100 times damage buff will mean "nothing has changed" and is thus according to your assumption, "perfectly fine", when in fact it is nothing near that.

This brings to the problem, if charge time were to be added to actually make a difference between bows, then it won't be fair for reloads of other gun. The best way to solve this can be from using an alternative way of calculating TTK, where the value of  [Reload Time / (Magazine size / Rounds to kill)] is added to the current value, so as to allow the calculation of charge time for bows.

You are relying too heavily on TTK.
TTK is not the ultimate assessment of a weapon's power. TTK doesn't even account for varying EHP.
It's just another formula which is often considered more reliable than DPS.
There is no simple combination of numbers that will allow you to universally assess the power of every weapon.

(The Daikyu has a TTK of zero (plus negligible flight time) on light frames. Buffing the damage would extend the instakill potential to medium and heavy frames. That is the significance. Beyond this point, buffing damage a hundredfold would have minimal practical effect on the weapon, though certain edge cases, such as interactions with powers, will still be influenced.)

8 hours ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

0.8 is with the holster mod. That is actually some problem, and if adapting the idea of making holster speed faster to be a mod which cannot be used with plan B, then it serves as an alternative, rather than just a "help" (which sounds like a buff in that sense)

Of course it's a buff. Providing more options can never be a nerf.
I have already said much concerning the holster speed of the Daikyu.

8 hours ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

Full charge opticor is a guarantee kill, Daikyu is still quite some distance from that. We also need to account for the fact that one is a hitscan, another is a "projectile". One can shoot without full, the other can't. Tigris doesn't have a very annoying requirement of charging up shots, although to some extent, it's "reload" is of a similar case. Daikyu and Opticor have many differences, even more so with tigris. Comparing them directly just because they have a chance to instakill is hardly even logical as aside from Opticor, Daikyu and tigris have its own mechanics whih determine whether you kill or not.

Every shot from the Opticor has one-shot potential, and the Opticor holds at most 10 of them.
Every duplex shot from the Tigris has one-shot potential, and the Tigris holds at most 7 of them.
Every arrow from the Daikyu has one-shot potential, and the Daikyu holds at most 20 of them.
Despite mechanical differences between the weapons, it remains clear that the ammo economy of the Daikyu is much, much superior.

8 hours ago, 14159265358979323846 said:

Adding in the slowly regenerated ammo over time and not being able to collect ammo from the boxes is a decent idea when added to my original solution, although I believe it might make things more complicated when it isn't needed.

It's an entirely new ammo system just for one weapon. It's too much overhead, and I don't see it being implemented.
But without this additional, expensive mechanic, your idea will not produce a significant change in Daikyu gameplay.

[Nazrethim]

I just think Shotgunkyu shouldn't be a thing, Shotguns for Pointblank, shortbows assault rifles and explosives for mid-long and Snipers (with exception from quickscoping as it requires way more skill than shotgunkyu) and Daikyu for long range (also think that SL-BH should grant the oneshot when done beyond 20-25m)

Edited June 6, 2016 by Nazrethim

[Phasedragon]

29 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

I just think Shotgunkyu shouldn't be a thing, Shotguns for Pointblank, shortbows assault rifles and explosives for mid-long and Snipers (with exception from quickscoping as it requires way more skill than shotgunkyu) and Daikyu for long range (also think that SL-BH should grant the oneshot when done beyond 20-25m)

It isn't though....christ how many times do we have to say it? Daikyu does less damage than most other bows unless it has its mod that activates at range.

[JonBenj]

4 hours ago, Phasedragon said:

It isn't though....christ how many times do we have to say it? Daikyu does less damage than most other bows unless it has its mod that activates at range.

 

My son; you have to say it as many times as it takes, before the question is no longer asked - or you commit yourself to suicide by keyboard face planting; whichever comes first.

[Nazrethim]

4 hours ago, Phasedragon said:

It isn't though....christ how many times do we have to say it? Daikyu does less damage than most other bows unless it has its mod that activates at range.

I repeat myself because it IS a thing, I run Ash Prime (a rather tanky frame) with +10 Shield (modding shenanigans) and I'm STILL oneshoted at pointblank (where I spend quite a lot of time in case you forgot I'm a melee specialyst) by Shotgunkyu. Oneshoted by a Tigris? It's a shotgun, I accept it and laugh at my pointless death. Oneshoted by a supposedly "long range" weapon? unacceptable. At least Sniper Quickscoping carries a camera scr*w for the user at pointblank (unless a modded Rubico, but fk Rubico anyway)

[Phasedragon]

10 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

I repeat myself because it IS a thing, I run Ash Prime (a rather tanky frame) with +10 Shield (modding shenanigans) and I'm STILL oneshoted at pointblank (where I spend quite a lot of time in case you forgot I'm a melee specialyst) by Shotgunkyu. Oneshoted by a Tigris? It's a shotgun, I accept it and laugh at my pointless death. Oneshoted by a supposedly "long range" weapon? unacceptable. At least Sniper Quickscoping carries a camera scr*w for the user at pointblank (unless a modded Rubico, but fk Rubico anyway)

Please just use it yourself before you persecute it. Same goes for pretty much everyone in this thread. I get that it's a luck shot more than a skill shot nowadays, but it's certainly not as easy to use as you all make it sound.

 

Plus, I'm pretty sure it's unable to oneshot a superheavy, even with springloaded.

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

I can summarize this post as people who run into very good conclave players who use Daikyu complain about the Daikyu's one-shotting ability. 

But a good weapon in the hands of a good player is suppose to cause you trouble, no? Is anyone in here seriously suggesting that the Daikyu is just killing people in conclave left and right or are people really just complaining that in the hands of the ones that have mastered it they are getting nailed to a wall?

Let's be honest there are no noobs or newbs running around in conclave effectively using a Daikyu. It is not that easy of a weapon to use. Most of the time I have absolutely no issues in dispensing a player using the Daikyu. The only time it becomes a challenge are against veteran and seasoned conclavers who have given a lot of their time to perfecting the use of the weapon. And sometimes those games don't go well for me. But isn't that what is suppose to happen? So yes, please stop complaining about the Daikyu, acting like conclave is just rampant with effective Daikyu users and you're just dying left and right to them. If you are dying left and right then perhaps its an internal problem that you should focus more so on yourself than the Daikyu users.

Edited June 7, 2016 by (XB1)Lorewalker1022

[(XBOX)Y0DA PRiME]

I thought DE nerf spring loaded

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Phasedragon said:

Please just use it yourself before you persecute it. Same goes for pretty much everyone in this thread. I get that it's a luck shot more than a skill shot nowadays, but it's certainly not as easy to use as you all make it sound.

 

Plus, I'm pretty sure it's unable to oneshot a superheavy, even with springloaded.

- I don't use ranged weapons until Melee is fixed, no, I won't break my oath because I'm the ultra rare kind of people who believes in honor. (Just in Conclave, I do use Daikyu and other ranged weapons in normal PvE play so I may know a thing or two of how guns work thank you very much)

- I'm not saying it's "easy" to use, I'm saying it's a long range weapon being used as a close range weapon.

-I get oneshoted or almost oneshoted (we are talking left with 20-30hp) on a regular basis, and no, Ash isn't a super heavy frame, yes he's durable, but lacks any defensive meassure to endure damage, he can't conjure an icy bubble or gain super armor or a second layer of shield on demand. As soon as someone show's up with a Daikyu I know I'm in for heavy heavy damage at pointblank. I'm not even asking directly for a Daikyu nerf, but actually a drawback for Spring-Loaded, oneshot damage beyond 15-20m, scratch damage at pointblank.

[Phasedragon]

17 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

- I don't use ranged weapons until Melee is fixed, no, I won't break my oath because I'm the ultra rare kind of people who believes in honor. (Just in Conclave, I do use Daikyu and other ranged weapons in normal PvE play so I may know a thing or two of how guns work thank you very much)

- I'm not saying it's "easy" to use, I'm saying it's a long range weapon being used as a close range weapon.

-I get oneshoted or almost oneshoted (we are talking left with 20-30hp) on a regular basis, and no, Ash isn't a super heavy frame, yes he's durable, but lacks any defensive meassure to endure damage, he can't conjure an icy bubble or gain super armor or a second layer of shield on demand. As soon as someone show's up with a Daikyu I know I'm in for heavy heavy damage at pointblank. I'm not even asking directly for a Daikyu nerf, but actually a drawback for Spring-Loaded, oneshot damage beyond 15-20m, scratch damage at pointblank.

 

15 hours ago, JonBenj said:

 

My son; you have to say it as many times as it takes, before the question is no longer asked - or you commit yourself to suicide by keyboard face planting; whichever comes first.

 

Ok I guess I'll say it again. "Shotgun-kyu" is not a thing. Any other bow would do far better at close range. Paris does more damage and has nearly half the draw time. Other bows that are fast will be able to hit twice well before Daikyu is even fully drawn. The only way that Daikyu can one-shot Ash prime is if he is using -health/shield mods and Daikyu has spring-loaded fully activated.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Phasedragon

[Krysyth]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

- I don't use ranged weapons until Melee is fixed, no, I won't break my oath because I'm the ultra rare kind of people who believes in honor. (Just in Conclave, I do use Daikyu and other ranged weapons in normal PvE play so I may know a thing or two of how guns work thank you very much)

- I'm not saying it's "easy" to use, I'm saying it's a long range weapon being used as a close range weapon.

-I get oneshoted or almost oneshoted (we are talking left with 20-30hp) on a regular basis, and no, Ash isn't a super heavy frame, yes he's durable, but lacks any defensive meassure to endure damage, he can't conjure an icy bubble or gain super armor or a second layer of shield on demand. As soon as someone show's up with a Daikyu I know I'm in for heavy heavy damage at pointblank. I'm not even asking directly for a Daikyu nerf, but actually a drawback for Spring-Loaded, oneshot damage beyond 15-20m, scratch damage at pointblank.

 

Believes in... honor? What? This is a game, not feudal Japan. All you do by eschewing ranged weapons is gimp yourself, and this attitude just comes off as "holier than thou." 

20-30 life left is quite a lot if your opponent is using an auto secondary and isn't great at tracking. Even with a 1.0 mobility Ash, it is not that hard to get away in this circumstance.

I used to have problems with the Shotgun-Daikyu style of gameplay before I tried the weapon out. There are several disadvantages - the need to combo into an execution ability or a secondary weapon, the painfully long draw time, the denocking mechanic not present on any other bow... and as has been said multiple times, the Daikyu has less damage than the Paris without Spring Loaded Broadhead, which makes the close-range Daikyu tactic distinctly disadvantageous. Both the Paris and Cernos would hurt you significantly more at point-blank range and would be equally shotgun-like in execution; all you are requesting is a straight nerf to the Daikyu that will cause this exact style of gameplay to shift to other bows and change absolutely nothing.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Krysyth

[Nazrethim]

Forget I said anything, the oneshots I get are probably lag and the game deciding I'm 15m away despite being slicing the daikyu user's face off with my blades.

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

3 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

- I don't use ranged weapons until Melee is fixed, no, I won't break my oath because I'm the ultra rare kind of people who believes in honor. (Just in Conclave, I do use Daikyu and other ranged weapons in normal PvE play so I may know a thing or two of how guns work thank you very much)

- I'm not saying it's "easy" to use, I'm saying it's a long range weapon being used as a close range weapon.

-I get oneshoted or almost oneshoted (we are talking left with 20-30hp) on a regular basis, and no, Ash isn't a super heavy frame, yes he's durable, but lacks any defensive meassure to endure damage, he can't conjure an icy bubble or gain super armor or a second layer of shield on demand. As soon as someone show's up with a Daikyu I know I'm in for heavy heavy damage at pointblank. I'm not even asking directly for a Daikyu nerf, but actually a drawback for Spring-Loaded, oneshot damage beyond 15-20m, scratch damage at pointblank.

Whoa...we all get worked up but this is just a game. It think your use of honor would be better placed if used elsewhere rather than in this game lol. Not using ranged weapons only handicaps you. I don't think it goes to further your pursuit of honor.

[Nazrethim]

Just now, (XB1)Lorewalker1022 said:

Whoa...we all get worked up but this is just a game. It think your use of honor would be better placed if used elsewhere rather than in this game lol. Not using ranged weapons only handicaps you. I don't think it goes to further your pursuit of honor.

I'm honor bound EVERYWHERE. Granted, it mostly applies to promises, oaths and other forms of social contracts, but I keep my word. I'm actually quite capable of kickin arse with my melee weapons alone despite the atrocious gameplay, and when I suggest "buffs for melee" it's mostly "less animation lock, make melee actually work with parkour 2.0 and give consistent attack speed and damage (no channeling, combo counter or timed buffs bullsh*t) and nerf melee damage" than "buff melee damage"