Movement Post-Update: Lunaro

[rngd444]

4 hours ago, ButterLutter said:

There you go, i hope i did it correct.

Certainly does feel like hitting a wall

Spoiler

 

I wasn't familiar with the mentioned (slide -->) jump --> roll --> double jump combo (second one demstrated) and as it appears, it isn't slowed down. The distinction doesn't seem to be bullet jump or not but if it actually is a 'normal' double jump (with no action in-between). I hope the slide --> jump --> double jump combo (first one seen) and its deceleration is cleary visible, as I do not really have good means to record and had to mess around with settings and stuff.

The only slight decrease people might notice (on the second one) is due to the roll's animation which let's you cover a brief distance faster than usual, yet the double jump has the normal speed one had before the roll.

My opinion that this is a bug is pretty solidified but regardless how we call it, I think it's very inconsistent at the very least.

Edited June 20, 2016 by rngd444

[Sold0ut]

Well, if you do the double jump first a nd roll after, you keep momentum, but this combo you lose your speed pretty instantly!

[Radjehuty]

On 6/16/2016 at 7:20 AM, ButterLutter said:

Bulletjump + Double Jump is still as fast as always, i noticed no difference and was still super fast.

Soo what exactly is this all about?

I guess you didn't really know how to move fast with parkour 2.0. You used to be able to time rolling with bullet jumping to gain momentum. DE claimed after well over a year that it's a "bug" and "fixed" it. Basically it's a parkour nerf to make it easier for them to implement Lunaro.

[Laidain]

Why remove this?This has been in the game for so long and they have yet to notice it?They removed it under  the guise of a "bug" like coptering but since they left it in so long, people have become attached to it and enjoyed it. Removing this was unnecessary because for 1,it isn't game-breaking,if anything it gives enemies more power.You can't dodge all the bullets that come at you because of the insane hit scaling.Banshee, and other "squisies" will have an even harder time.Another reason is that this shouldn't have been removed id because we have missions like excavation,defense,interception,etc,missions where you have to protect things.Not everyone will want to sit inside a globe the whole time and will want to move and be fast.Making us slower just makes the enemy even more powerful.Enemies need to be heavily looked at.DE,your maps have never been small,no one has complained about parkour being too fast small or maps being too small.Steve mentioned something about map size and parkour and I believe he says something like the map size and parkour speed doesn't match up.It does,otherwise,the community would have said so much more about it.Please revert the change.I seriously have never heard people complain about this.

 

Ah,forget it,I don't think they're changing it.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Pratigious
Reality just hit me like a brick.

[NezuHimeSama]

12 hours ago, ButterLutter said:

There you go, i hope i did it correct.

Certainly does feel like hitting a wall

Didn't know you could double roll. I guess that's the exploit that allowed building a lot of momentum quickly?

but, i don't see why the second jump has to be nerfed for any  airjump after rolling or sliding.

[ButterLutter]

9 hours ago, rngd444 said:

  Hide contents

 

I wasn't familiar with the mentioned (slide -->) jump --> roll --> double jump combo (second one demstrated) and as it appears, it isn't slowed down. The distinction doesn't seem to be bullet jump or not but if it actually is a 'normal' double jump (with no action in-between). I hope the slide --> jump --> double jump combo (first one seen) and its deceleration is cleary visible, as I do not really have good means to record and had to mess around with settings and stuff.

The only slight decrease people might notice (on the second one) is due to the roll's animation which let's you cover a brief distance faster than usual, yet the double jump has the normal speed one had before the roll.

My opinion that this is a bug is pretty solidified but regardless how we call it, I think it's very inconsistent at the very least.

Great idea showing this from above.
Though i have to ask, did you rig yours or is this a "Nezha-only-feature". I dont have him, so i can only test this with other frames.
Reason is, doing exactly the same like you, i never stop so hard. The only way to get this is to stop pressing W after the slide.

Here is a video doing the same like you repeatedly and never stopping so hard:
 

Spoiler

 

Notice how my double jump is still covering some meters while yours is not.
Like i said, the only way for my double jump to not cover some meters is to stop pressing W

Edited June 20, 2016 by ButterLutter

[Demon.King]

1 hour ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Didn't know you could double roll. I guess that's the exploit that allowed building a lot of momentum quickly?

but, i don't see why the second jump has to be nerfed for any  airjump after rolling or sliding.

Umm...you can't double roll...I don't want to sound harsh here but I really must, you apparently have never used parkour 2.0 or you would know what you just saw. What you saw was a " jump --> roll --> double jump ". The double jump looks like a roll...

Which leads to the core issue of all the arguments here. Half the people participating have no knowledge on Parkour 2.0, yet keep arguing about it...and this seems to be getting an increasingly self destructing trend in the community...

Edited June 20, 2016 by Demon.King

[ButterLutter]

18 minutes ago, ButterLutter said:

Notice how my double jump is still covering some meters while yours is not.
Like i said, the only way for my double jump to not cover some meters is to stop pressing W

Here is (another) video (all the videos \o/) showing what i mean:

Spoiler

 

The first few jumps were without pressing W and then mixing in some with pressing W.
So whats with the "stop pressing W" demonstration rngd444?

Edited June 20, 2016 by ButterLutter

[rngd444]

2 hours ago, ButterLutter said:

Here is (another) video (all the videos \o/) showing what i mean:

  Hide contents

 

The first few jumps were without pressing W and then mixing in some with pressing W.
So whats with the "stop pressing W" demonstration rngd444?

The difference is that you stopped even before the double jump in the latest video due to the lack of momentum, so it's not visible. I still have the momentum of the slide until the double jump occurs (this is why I wrote I hope it's visible enough with the given quality). Why did I stop using the movement key? Simply because it shows the issue more clearly, otherwise it would've been claimed as not visible enough or not being big of a deal. Your accusations aside, do you find the seen stop even remotely logical? It doesn't happen on any other combo like that and wasn't possible to be done before the change (yeah, you'd have to trust my words here, I know).

It's not only bound to Nezha but it logically becomes more apparent due to his passive. You can do the same with any other Frame using both Maglev and Cunning Drift at the same time (though, I also had Rush and Armored Agility installed). I notice the whole thing better while in mission (while continuing running, yes) because one can be even faster (e.g. due to Fire Walker's speed buff) but it's hardly possible to make a vid of that and properly showcase the issue (to say nothing of my poor frame rate).

Even if it was only a Nezha-related issue, it would still need a fix. But it is not; not all guys in this thread with this issue are Nezha players.

 

At all the people who still address the rolling momentum topic and how other people have no idea how it worked: it doesn't really matter since DE won't change it back, sadly. So, let's concentrate on the stuff that needs to and could realistically be fixed.

Edited June 20, 2016 by rngd444

[Sangiros]

On 16/06/2016 at 10:11 AM, -CM-Emptiness said:

I think the main reason was implications to game-play in Lunaros. Given that its been 1 year since Parkour 2.0 and nothing has happened.

If we prefer running, I'd think Parkour 1.0 be sufficient enough. Parkour 2.0 provides somewhat more of a fast-paced movement mechanic which integrates jumping and running to achieve greater levels of speed. At the moment, both the integration and fast-pace are missing, since you get severely slowed down by jumping during a sprint.

 

On 16/06/2016 at 10:11 AM, Xzorn said:

So yea.... I've already proven that RUN is always reduced.

You're also assuming this is intentional which so far only one thing is confirmed by patch notes while this has spread to multiple movement issues.

Of course it would be a lot easier if DE actually included more than 1/3 the actual changes for each patch in the notes.

Last I checked that's how you communicate changes to your players.

I'm pretty sure this nerf occurred because of numerous complaints about people who kept chaining bullet jump > double jump > mid-air roll > slide > repeat as the main means of movement, which outpaced those playing by simply running, and then getting spam-shamed to kingdom come as being "newbish scrublords" for not doing the same, for "delaying the mission"... Because really, Warframe is indeed about rushing every single goddamn mission :V

That's one of the main reasons nerf happens, people...!

Edited June 20, 2016 by Sangiros

[-CM-Emptiness]

1 hour ago, Sangiros said:

I'm pretty sure this nerf occurred because of numerous complaints about people who kept chaining bullet jump > double jump > mid-air roll > slide > repeat as the main means of movement, which outpaced those playing by simply running, and then getting spam-shamed to kingdom come as being "newbish scrublords" for not doing the same, for "delaying the mission"... Because really, Warframe is indeed about rushing every single goddamn mission :V

I would be inclined to agree if there wasn't a one year gap in-between. There's simply no excuse for leaving it untouched, if indeed this is against their design plans. Think about it. If they didn't know about it for the whole period, DE obviously doesn't play / test their own game. If they did, why leave it until Lunaros, which may I remind you they reworked certain Parkour and Movement mechanics specifically for that mode.

As someone who does use the described mechanic for speed, I am reasonably disappointed. Here's where it may get interesting for you:

• Performing a second jump in mid-air now removes all previous momentum. Exactly the opposite of what the roll combination achieves. They should rework this to not give boost nor slowdown. Though I at least prefer a slight boost.
• Parkour is meant to outpace running. And it does. The only inconsistency I see is the similar reset of momentum when bullet-jumping. So if you place Sprint mods on, your Parkour speed won't be affected, since you don't gain the momentum from sprinting. So sprinting will be faster if you choose to build your frame that way. It suggests itself as a Sprint vs Jumping system which it shouldn't be since Parkour is meant to integrate the two into a fluid method of travel.
• Rushing can be thought of as a method of cheese I suppose. Nevertheless, it is completely legitimate and isn't game-breaking in any sense of the word, unlike nodes like Draco, or weapons like Tonkor. Your experience with Speed-runners seems to be extreme, but I can assure you not all of us are like that.

On a personal note, I dislike what DE has done to the concept of Speed in Warframe in recent events. First the rework to Volt, which turned radial buff into a solo-style ability, and then the large casting-delay to lower the likeability of solo-play as well. Now we have this... Completing content quickly in a legitimate way is a much more preferable method of 'cheese' than Draco and the like. Yet, it is this and not Draco that gets put under the hammer. -.-

[rngd444]

1 hour ago, Sangiros said:

 

I'm pretty sure this nerf occurred because of numerous complaints about people who kept chaining bullet jump > double jump > mid-air roll > slide > repeat as the main means of movement, which outpaced those playing by simply running, and then getting spam-shamed to kingdom come as being "newbish scrublords" for not doing the same, for "delaying the mission"... Because really, Warframe is indeed about rushing every single goddamn mission :V

That's one of the main reasons nerf happens, people...!

I never saw anyone getting flamed for being slow, ever. Perhaps a snarky comment if someone decided to loot every normal cache in every room in an alert mission (should've just played solo then) but that happens pretty infrequent as well. And yeah, all those 'fast' mission types aren't getting any more exciting over time, so why would one want to play it as if it's something new and shiny. In a game with pretty bad odds, the majority won't stop to strive for at least a bit of efficiency while playing and nerfing speed will most likely only harden those people's stance on completing missions quickly.

I still think it was just a bit of a too convenient timing with the release of Lunaro and there's a certain disconnect at hand between their understanding of the game and the actual impact on the player's experience. They should've done that change way earlier and actively communicate it instead of just be like 'meh, let's just change it after everyone has adapted to it a year ago and thinks it's intended'. In regards of actually mentioned reasons like 'level design got difficult' (which feels pretty pretextual), it's quite unlikely anything will change in regards of the number of tilesets involved or their overall size but that's just my purely subjective prediction.

There are simply more elegant ways to introduce such changes without encountering that much disbelief, especially if you recently made a big 'hurray' post about how great it is to actively work on the game with the help of the community and how 'finality' isn't a word to associate with their developer process. Their decision seemed to be quite final way before we could grasp what's there to come. Another example would be the still bugged Exterminate spawns which are 'pretty finally' compromised (and untouched for months now, dating back to december 2015) for the sake of damming back effective Focus gain (while being capped per day anyway).

Edited June 20, 2016 by rngd444

[Gilmaesh]

ok, that explain why i can't cross some large rooms like before, it feels a bit weird now.

That momentum was one of the reason players were less salty about the removing of coptering. We gained control but lost a lot of speed in the process then some players pointed on the forum and in the game that we could attain some good speed (not like before but still) due to this momentum with parkour combinations and thanks to those players, the transition between parkour 1.0 and 2.0 was smoother for some.

Also, unlike coptering, i didn't see anyone complaining about our current speed in the forum, that "bug fix" happened out of nowhere...

i'm a bit disappointed. 

ps : If Lunaro is the reason we got this, then make pvp and pve parkour independent of each other. Don't start messing PVE because of PVP that's a red line for me.

 

[Elurdin]

Like one person already in this thread got hit by reality so I did. There is literally no hope DE will even look into changing or tweaking double jump, so finality is the word indeed. Guess it's time to use Mobilize or Ice spring to skip using rolling and double jumping all together.

[(XBOX)LAZYNOOB2017]

you weren't even moving that fast to begin with. btw i never feel a decrease in momentum when double jumping, i keep my momentum. it only stops when I hit the ground

[rngd444]

17 hours ago, Elurdin said:

Like one person already in this thread got hit by reality so I did. There is literally no hope DE will even look into changing or tweaking double jump, so finality is the word indeed. Guess it's time to use Mobilize or Ice spring to skip using rolling and double jumping all together.

Yeah unfortunately, I guess that's how 'feedback' works around here. Even if they miraculously gain knowledge of said double jump issue, it might as well take another year until they feel like it. Or not since it's nothing we gain an advantage of.

 

15 minutes ago, (XB1)LAZYNOOB2015 said:

you weren't even moving that fast to begin with. btw i never feel a decrease in momentum when double jumping, i keep my momentum. it only stops when I hit the ground

Aren't you on XB1? Do you have the update already? And yes, the difference is quite visible if you actually used all the means to speed up. The jump issue seems to only apply to gained momentum that isn't translated from normal jumps to double jumps, so every other combo (rolling or bullet jumping before the double jump) is working 'fine'.

[(XBOX)LAZYNOOB2017]

1 hour ago, rngd444 said:

Yeah unfortunately, I guess that's how 'feedback' works around here. Even if they miraculously gain knowledge of said double jump issue, it might as well take another year until they feel like it. Or not since it's nothing we gain an advantage of.

 

Aren't you on XB1? Do you have the update already? And yes, the difference is quite visible if you actually used all the means to speed up. The jump issue seems to only apply to gained momentum that isn't translated from normal jumps to double jumps, so every other combo (rolling or bullet jumping before the double jump) is working 'fine'.

but then why don't you use those combos then? I've always bullet jumped - slide because i'm comfortable with the controls - double jumped - rolled - and sometimes air glide.

[rngd444]

48 minutes ago, (XB1)LAZYNOOB2015 said:

but then why don't you use those combos then? I've always bullet jumped - slide because i'm comfortable with the controls - double jumped - rolled - and sometimes air glide.

Simply put, I like the variety. That and double jumping while sliding is the most natural thing to do while playing Nezha (you don't want to use bullet jumps which reset momentum, it invalidates sliding) which I like and do quite a bit.

It's counterintuitive that I have to change my habits because of a logic error (which occured as a byproduct of another change and wasn't even mentioned, let alone commented on), yet I'll eventually do so if nothing gets changed. As it stands right now, you want to avoid double jumps in certain situations altogether which can't be the goal of a system which initially advertised said variety.

So, do you play on PC or how else do you evaluate the situation?

[(XBOX)LAZYNOOB2017]

29 minutes ago, rngd444 said:

Simply put, I like the variety. That and double jumping while sliding is the most natural thing to do while playing Nezha (you don't want to use bullet jumps which reset momentum, it invalidates sliding) which I like and do quite a bit.

It's counterintuitive that I have to change my habits because of a logic error (which occured as a byproduct of another change and wasn't even mentioned, let alone commented on), yet I'll eventually do so if nothing gets changed. As it stands right now, you want to avoid double jumps in certain situations altogether which can't be the goal of a system which initially advertised said variety.

So, do you play on PC or how else do you evaluate the situation?

I play on XB1. Bullet jump at the start of your "room clearing" not halfway through. Can you identify the "certain situations" in which you shouldn't double jump. because I have not yet encountered a situation in which I shouldn't double jump (except the one time the stalker spawned because I was an idiot and forgot to make sure that I had atleast one good weapon that could kill him I was ranking up some stuff no I was not new I was just an idiot. I tried to double jump over him and he shot me out of the sky with the dread. loki prime can't take much damage lol).

[rngd444]

43 minutes ago, (XB1)LAZYNOOB2015 said:

I play on XB1. Bullet jump at the start of your "room clearing" not halfway through. Can you identify the "certain situations" in which you shouldn't double jump. because I have not yet encountered a situation in which I shouldn't double jump (except the one time the stalker spawned because I was an idiot and forgot to make sure that I had atleast one good weapon that could kill him I was ranking up some stuff no I was not new I was just an idiot. I tried to double jump over him and he shot me out of the sky with the dread. loki prime can't take much damage lol).

This whole thread is about how they changed rolling and double jumping with the Lunaro update, that's why I asked.

They removed the momentum gained from rolling and called it 'unintended' despite being in its previous state (the one you're still playing) for one year. While at it, they accidentally changed double jumps to let you stop mid-air because you suddenly lose all momentum. The certain situations are simply the one combo I described (slide into jump into double jump), though sometimes it is suffice to do only one jump because the game randomly 'decides' to use the 'spin' animation instead. So, you can't even actively prevent it from happening.

Some other bugs have arisen due to the changes such as rolls preventing to do anything right after the animation (shooting, charging a bow, using an ability) and being able to hold a charged weapon while rolling. Overall, I have yet to see how all this made the game better.

[Educated_Beast]

I don't think it's a coincidence copterin was removed shortly after the new pvp was released.  I played a lot of pvp back then and remember the forums exploding with cry babies on how they can't hit anything and wanting a shooter more than an ability based warframe.

 

I got sick of pvp once it felt so slow and heavily gun / aim / host dependent.  I like the fast paced power spam.  It was fun, I could care less if it is a balanced as TF2, COD, whatever.  

 

I also don't think it's a coincidence our movement was nerfed again because lunaro was released.  

 

I used to want pvp to succeed in warframe, now I wish they would just remove it.  Way to much grind to get all the required mods to be competitive instead of just making pve mods available for use but reworked.  Forcing us to forma the same weapons for pvp and pve is also horrible design (all the D mods where pve needs V).  Then just changing pvp mods completely we already forma weapons for...  

 

I'm sick of pvp changing pve.  I'd rather it just be removed.  It's obvious what happened and why the minority of players is getting their way is a mystery.  

 

Heck, I don't even see why lunaro players can't quickly traverse the map.  They both have same advantages.

 

I guess we all need to suffer because DE wants us to pass the ball multiple times down the field and encourage "teamwork".  

 

I say give us back our speed and remove pvp.  

 

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by Educated_Beast

[(XBOX)LAZYNOOB2017]

On ‎20‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 7:02 AM, Radjehuty said:

I guess you didn't really know how to move fast with parkour 2.0. You used to be able to time rolling with bullet jumping to gain momentum. DE claimed after well over a year that it's a "bug" and "fixed" it. Basically it's a parkour nerf to make it easier for them to implement Lunaro.

No apparently it was a bug that people didn't know about because it was there for so long it was thought to be deliberate. BTW what is Lunaro. Is it a frame? A weapon? A quest?

[(XBOX)LAZYNOOB2017]

19 hours ago, rngd444 said:

This whole thread is about how they changed rolling and double jumping with the Lunaro update, that's why I asked.

They removed the momentum gained from rolling and called it 'unintended' despite being in its previous state (the one you're still playing) for one year. While at it, they accidentally changed double jumps to let you stop mid-air because you suddenly lose all momentum. The certain situations are simply the one combo I described (slide into jump into double jump), though sometimes it is suffice to do only one jump because the game randomly 'decides' to use the 'spin' animation instead. So, you can't even actively prevent it from happening.

Some other bugs have arisen due to the changes such as rolls preventing to do anything right after the animation (shooting, charging a bow, using an ability) and being able to hold a charged weapon while rolling. Overall, I have yet to see how all this made the game better.

I don't see how you don't. But hey this is all personal preference. Also. You don't lose momentum after the double jump. I am so confused.

[rngd444]

15 minutes ago, (XB1)LAZYNOOB2015 said:

I don't see how you don't. But hey this is all personal preference. Also. You don't lose momentum after the double jump. I am so confused.

It's really not that difficult. The new update (which is only on PC so far and not on consoles yet) brought the aforementioned changes to movement. So yeah, you do lose momentum in the current PC version which is not yet live for you. And no, it's not just a matter of personal preference but one of inconsistencies regarding one of many maneuvers that are meant to function together.

[NezuHimeSama]

This really needs to be fixed.