Hey [DE], will the Dakra Prime and Boar Prime be receiving a balance pass upon un-vaulting?

[LazyKnight]

58 minutes ago, ShiraHagane said:

I mean, it would make sense for War, it being arguably the most powerful heavy blade, but if broken War is going to be MR 3, it shouldn't be the most powerful longsword, both balance-wise and logically, since it's a frickin BROKEN sword.

Broekn War should have been mastery rank locked along with the entire quest, but DE wanted people to be able to start the quest and get the reward if they can clear it. I think it was even commented on by DE_Steve on one of the live streams about the intent. There are many quest in RPG games that have a low level entry point to begin the campaign but the required gear to clear it is way higher. 

It requires rank 3 to start the quest, and the quest is not something a mastery rank 3 player should be expected to clear. It's harder to clear the quest line than it is to do just about any of the mastery test (I am rank 20). Same issue with the limbo and Atlas quest line, they should have been mastery locked as they are not easy.

 

 

Let's be real here, the mastery system is in disarray with weapons like Tonkor being top tier and weapons like Stradavar being garbage tier. There has never been rhyme or reason in the application of mastery requirement. 

Edited June 29, 2016 by LazyKnight

[Magneu]

I would love if the Dakra got a niche, namely status/crit, to at least give it something over Broken War. As is, there is literally no reason to use DP over BW, which is stupid, as everyone gets the BW for free, while the DP is (currently) farmable.

Base 20% status chance, increase crit multiplier to 2.0x. Bam, now the BW will start off stronger for the first couple iterations of the combo counter, while the DP will pull ahead if you stay in melee mode and chain hits.

Wouldn't that give more options for the longswords category, a weapon class that falls far behind others? Go for upfront raw damage, or a weapon that gains the edge when you continue to use it.

I hate to see old masterpieces of weapons relegated to mastery fodder because an objectively better weapon in every regard exists, for free. Don't buff the DP over the BW, give it a different niche.

[Chipputer]

16 minutes ago, Magneu said:

I would love if the Dakra got a niche

But it does have a niche! It's the better fashion frame item.

[OzoneSlayer]

What do you guys think of the sword category as a whole? IMO only two of them are at all viable

[Multicom-EN-]

Strun Wraith S#&$s all over Boar Prime with the "recent" Strun Wraith buff. 

Dakra Prime is fine, but the mastery requirement is stupid when you look at Broken War.

[DreadWarlock]

On 29/06/2016 at 2:52 AM, OzoneSlayer said:

When you factor in resistances and weaknesses yes, it is better, especially since its constant application. Every consecutive hit the dakra's damage application pulls further ahead

 

And no they have 1k base damage, not 10k, so armor reduction would make it even lower

Let's see your Dakra Prime topple this(using Dakra Prime's build instead of Prisma skana normal build):

http://goo.gl/IzyvXN

 

[OzoneSlayer]

1 hour ago, DreadWarlock said:

Let's see your Dakra Prime topple this(using Dakra Prime's build instead of Prisma skana normal build):

http://goo.gl/IzyvXN

 

OK you asked for it

 

http://goo.gl/MNQdBy

 

And I managed to out dps your build but also you had to take off your precious syndicate proc and still ended up with less dps

[Epsik-kun]

On 6/30/2016 at 3:06 PM, OzoneSlayer said:

only two of them are at all viable

The category isn't viable.

[OzoneSlayer]

54 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

The category isn't viable.

Stop fighting lv 150+ enemies without CP then ;)

[Epsik-kun]

Just now, OzoneSlayer said:

Stop fighting lv 150+ enemies without CP then ;)

>implying one CP would be better than Steel Charge for lvl 150+ enemies.

Anyway, even without taking armor into an account, the whole category is still not viable. But yeah, lack of proper status weapons is one of the reasons.

[Oishii]

I don't know why people are against the primed version of the category "all swords that aren't japanese or rapiers" being at least on par with the primed version of "japanese swords". Even the broken war which is the king of "all swords that aren't japanese or rapiers" is pretty bad compared to the nikana prime..

 

Even back in the day ever since blind justice the dragon nikana was way better than the dakra prime, if we go by dunking_machine_'s damage multiplier per second calculations on reddit.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Oishii

[ShiraHagane]

6 hours ago, Oishii said:

I don't know why people are against the primed version of the category "all swords that aren't japanese or rapiers" being at least on par with the primed version of "japanese swords". Even the broken war which is the king of "all swords that aren't japanese or rapiers" is pretty bad compared to the nikana prime..

 

Even back in the day ever since blind justice the dragon nikana was way better than the dakra prime, if we go by dunking_machine_'s damage multiplier per second calculations on reddit.

it's because "japanese swords" are magical in pop culture.  I would go on a rant about how that's complete BS and a longsword could probably shatter a katana, but then the weebs would show up and deny that blasphemy against the god of swords.  I'll just say this: longswords should have a much higher impact ratio than nikanas if we're being realistic. (although, the dakra is allegedly REEEALLY sharp)

Anywho, now for my spiel on longswords.  Buff dakra prime to be on par with nikana prime (maybe more damage and status, but less crit insert historically and mechanically accurate stuff supporting this). Buff prisma skana to be under dakra, but above BW.  Buff all the others to around current dakra prime levels.

There.  Guys, look!  Longswords are viable!  How long did that take?  30 seconds?

[Autongnosis]

 

8 hours ago, Oishii said:

I don't know why people are against the primed version of the category "all swords that aren't japanese or rapiers" being at least on par with the primed version of "japanese swords". Even the broken war which is the king of "all swords that aren't japanese or rapiers" is pretty bad compared to the nikana prime..

It's also a fault in the stances. I mean, Crimson Dervish is incredibly powerful but also incredibly slow and lacking any kind of mobility and freedom, as opposed as Blind Justice that has really good damage modifiers, incredible speed, and easy to use forward dashes that can keep you in combat.

The other single sword stance that could be of some use to compete is llocked behind a HUGE rng wall that few manage to get through.

1 hour ago, ShiraHagane said:

it's because "japanese swords" are magical in pop culture.  I would go on a rant about how that's complete BS and a longsword could probably shatter a katana, but then the weebs would show up and deny that blasphemy against the god of swords.  I'll just say this: longswords should have a much higher impact ratio than nikanas if we're being realistic. (although, the dakra is allegedly REEEALLY sharp)

Anywho, now for my spiel on longswords.  Buff dakra prime to be on par with nikana prime (maybe more damage and status, but less crit insert historically and mechanically accurate stuff supporting this). Buff prisma skana to be under dakra, but above BW.  Buff all the others to around current dakra prime levels.

There.  Guys, look!  Longswords are viable!  How long did that take?  30 seconds?

Yes pls .-.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Autongnosis

[Epsik-kun]

I just want Prisma Skana to have 25% x3 crit stat and 20% status, then stances will do the rest.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[Autongnosis]

On ‎03‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 6:11 PM, Epsik-kun said:

>implying one CP would be better than Steel Charge for lvl 150+ enemies.

Anyway, even without taking armor into an account, the whole category is still not viable. But yeah, lack of proper status weapons is one of the reasons.

Well technically it is - a single CP boosts your damage by 6% more than SC versus the armour you have max bonus against and by 11% versus the other. Not much admittedly, but still better.

1 hour ago, Epsik-kun said:

I just want Prisma Skana to have 25% x3 crit stat and 20% status, then stances will do the rest.

I would love it, but it would be overpowered as S#&amp;&#036; <3 It would do almost as much damage as a max damage Broken War and have twice as much status for Viral+Slash DoT stacking.

[Oishii]

21 hours ago, ShiraHagane said:

it's because "japanese swords" are magical in pop culture.  I would go on a rant about how that's complete BS and a longsword could probably shatter a katana, but then the weebs would show up and deny that blasphemy against the god of swords.  I'll just say this: longswords should have a much higher impact ratio than nikanas if we're being realistic. (although, the dakra is allegedly REEEALLY sharp)

Anywho, now for my spiel on longswords.  Buff dakra prime to be on par with nikana prime (maybe more damage and status, but less crit insert historically and mechanically accurate stuff supporting this). Buff prisma skana to be under dakra, but above BW.  Buff all the others to around current dakra prime levels.

There.  Guys, look!  Longswords are viable!  How long did that take?  30 seconds?

Well while its true a longsword is more durable than a katana. Depending on what you mean a katana or longsword could have more impact and with how warframes use swords (blade only) a katana probably would be closer to an impact weapon. Katanas completely contrary to how popular culture portrays them are quite heavy swords for their size. The average longsword is much lighter per length. The net result though is the swords weighing about the same as the longsword is well... long. The longsword has flexible blade while the katana is a hard blade, this results in the longsword being more difficult to break as if you try to apply force to it much of the force is going to be lost due to the fact the sword will slightly bend to the side and then spring back, but a katana is still going to be extremely difficult to break as its a piece of metal. The katana hard blade isn't a complete downside though its going to be better at pushing another sword to the side and its more noob friendly as thrust alignment is less of an issue.

If you are talking about murderstroking then yeah the longsword will have more "impact" as a longswords hilt is shaped similar to a hammer, which is on purpose btw. Or if you are just talking about anti-armor in general a longsword will have better thrusts with its small point compared to the katana's "fat point" on top of the murderstroke, but if you are just talking about bonking a person on top the head with the blade then a katana probably has more impact as it is more club like with its hard blade.

Also, I don't think there's any culture in history where trying to shatter a piece of metal with a piece of metal was a common tactic, as well it's hard to break something made out of metal in general.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Oishii

[ShiraHagane]

10 minutes ago, Oishii said:

Well while its true a longsword is more durable than a katana, I think technically a katana would have more impact than a longsword when hitting with the blade unless you are talking about murderstroking in which case yeah the longsword is going to have more impact. Katana completely contrary to how popular culture portrays them are quite heavy swords for their size. The average longsword is much lighter per length. The net result though is the swords weighing about the same in the end though due to the fact the longsword is well... long. The longsword has flexible blade while the katana is a hard blade, the results in the longsword being difficult to break as if you try to apply force to it much of the force is going to be lost in the fact the sword will slightly bend to the side. The katana hard blade isn't a complete downside though its going to be better at pushing another sword to the side and its more noob friendly as blade alignment is less of an issue.

If you are talking about murderstroking then yeah the longsword will have more "impact" as a longswords hilt is shaped similar to a hammer, which is on purpose as it can act as a hammer against heavier armor.

Okay, you should probably try using a sword before commenting on it.  A longsword could not cut through tatami mats, because they are dull as shirt compared to katanas, medieval longswords were practically blunt weapons because they had to deal with steel armor, and a blunt weapon could deal internal damage (see mace), which is also why they are softer, because a brittle blade like a katana would shatter if it hit another piece of steel (parrying is rarely used in kenjutsu, at least in my experience).  This brings me to my historical bit about crits and status.

katanas are used to deal swift, precise slashing strikes to vital (or critical) points like the throat or bowels.  Longswords are used to pummel your opponent with brute strength, causing internal injuries like bruising and bleeding, which I equate (for the sake of balance) to causing statuses.

As for katanas having impact, my favourite description of using a katana is from Miyamoto musashi, who said to swing a katana like a fishing rod, and if you've ever gone fishing, you know that it's not about force, it's about technique, and you don't want your sword to hit someone, you want it to cut them.  Lastly, about katanas being noob friendly, I'd like you to find one video of some person picking up a longsword and shattering it, because I can find 5 with katanas in about 30 seconds.

[Oishii]

11 hours ago, ShiraHagane said:

Okay, you should probably try using a sword before commenting on it.  A longsword could not cut through tatami mats, because they are dull as shirt compared to katanas, medieval longswords were practically blunt weapons because they had to deal with steel armor, and a blunt weapon could deal internal damage (see mace), which is also why they are softer, because a brittle blade like a katana would shatter if it hit another piece of steel (parrying is rarely used in kenjutsu, at least in my experience).  This brings me to my historical bit about crits and status.

katanas are used to deal swift, precise slashing strikes to vital (or critical) points like the throat or bowels.  Longswords are used to pummel your opponent with brute strength, causing internal injuries like bruising and bleeding, which I equate (for the sake of balance) to causing statuses.

As for katanas having impact, my favourite description of using a katana is from Miyamoto musashi, who said to swing a katana like a fishing rod, and if you've ever gone fishing, you know that it's not about force, it's about technique, and you don't want your sword to hit someone, you want it to cut them.  Lastly, about katanas being noob friendly, I'd like you to find one video of some person picking up a longsword and shattering it, because I can find 5 with katanas in about 30 seconds.

Someone knows nothing about swords and is katana cultist. Europe was not stupid and knew you needed a well kept blade. Also a longsword can easily cut tatami mats as tatami mats are well not that hard to cut through that's why people do it. The japanese did not discover the common-sense art of sharpening blades, people in general did, but if you stick your head far enough into the dirt you might find a world where only the Japanese knew that sharpening a sword = good idea. I also suggested trying to break a sword in general is quite dumb..... and just because something is easier to break does not mean its easy to break. I was defending katana after a comment about shattering swords. And ofc swords in general are about technique *facepalm this is only a comparison between swords without the user involved.  If you took two unarmored dudes (armor makes things much more complicated) with a katana and a longsword the guy who is better is favored to win, the type of sword as long as it's not some fantasy sword is going to be least of the determinants. Swords in general take a lot of skill to use as blade alignment is an issue which some weapons like spears do not have to account for usually.

Who da thought that the technique that involves folding a sword several times and dealing with crappy iron (you want a sword where you have a core of bad metal surrounded by superior metal, which takes up mass the Japanese did not discovery the secret of breaking physics) would result in a harder and heavier blade, which as I stated has an advantage and disadvantage. It's almost like there were several ways to design a sword each with their ups and downs. Sorry to break your sense of reality where the katana is the master sword. Also since you seem to be a katana cultist you probably think the katana is the best cutting blade in the universe, slightly outperforming the lightsaber. If you want the best cutting swords you go to India or the Middle East as blade curvature is the biggest clue to how well a sword can cut and the katana only has a slight curve. Having curvature though is a sacrifice to thrusting which you probably want if you are facing more armored opponents, though this is very general as curvature can sometimes be a downside in cutting especially if the armor your opponent is wearing prevents a draw cut.

The longsword also isn't the fairest comparison as it's a sword designed and redesigned in a world with better tech and the controlled furnace, which revolutionized what armor you could craft which meant constant updates to weapons were needed, while the katana stopped seeing major improvements around the 14th century? (don't quote me on this, but it's probably lose) The longsword wasn't really used over one handed swords till plate became a thing as a shield was too important before then, which makes it a fairly late sword in a world of better technology and metal.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Oishii

[Epsik-kun]

3 hours ago, Autongnosis said:

would be overpowered

No, it would be put on top tier levels, somewhere near Dual Prisma Cleavers - not quite achieving their DPS, but having higher damage per hit. Broken War is weak currently, you shouldn't compare weapons to it.

@ShiraHagane, oh boy, people like you still exist!

Edited July 4, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[Autongnosis]

Not with Crimson Dervish and the way stealth multipliers work though. Having a first strike that's 374 times your total damage at 3x combo is gonna be way better than anything the Dual Cleavers achieve, and if that procs Bleed.... god save that poor bastard.

Broken War actually has a pretty damn good raw damage potential - the problem being that it's outclassed by status-heavy weapons that deal stacked-multiplied Bleed procs and by the heavy weapons, thus giving off the wrong idea. But it works really well even then. The problem being mostly that post Shadow Debt melees only get one slot to play with and thus BWar needs to decide between getting a decent crit chance, a decent range or lifesteal, while most Others only between range and lifesteal .-.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Autongnosis

[Epsik-kun]

I took the Crimson Dervish into an account when I've told about having less DPS but higher damage per swing. Dual Swords currently is the highest dps melee category by a landslide.

Broken War actually is pretty damn bad.

Stacking Bleed is only viable on Ash.

[Autongnosis]

I partially agree, in fact i forgot to mention something important that is the fact that the outliers are completely out of this world and the fact that BWar is considered bad really strikes me as a symptom of the desease, since i used BWar in quite the endurance stuff and it performs really well.

On the topic of PDC vs PS, DPS calcs between different melee classes are impossible to do properly unless you shadowplay footage of both and to a frame per frame comparison to figure out the relative attack speed - which if you did is @(*()&#036; admirable and should be shared for everyoen's benefit btw - that said, the DPS calc cannot really calculate that first strike. Realistically speaking for the truly longest runs you'll use Naramon cheese to avoid instant Death and thus will be getting that sweet stealth multiplier.

Stealth multiplier though benefits the most high damage per swing weapons, many times better than low damage per swing weapons.

I did some maths that basically calculates a raw damage per second that needs to be multiplied by the stance speed and damage modifiers. Let's assume PS attacks 1/s under maxed Zerker and the PDC attack 4 times as fast as the PS under CD.

At 4 times combo the CD skana is doing 52'108 per swing and per second, while the PHC are doing 16'677 per swing and 66'710 per second.

Factor in stealthed first strike now.

CD PS does 208'435 first strike and damage per second.

PDC do 66'710 first strike and 116'742 per second. Almost half the damage of the PS.

If we were to assume PDC attack 6 times as fast, they'd do 150'097 per second. To get close to the first strike of the PS you need to assume they attack 9 times as fast, which is completely unrealistic.

Both weapons use the same build btw - Pressure Point, Synd augment, Body Count, Blood Rush, Organ Shatter, Berserker, 2*90% elementals.

Ah, obviously this assumes your proposed stats and not the ones currently in use.

 

Anyway, that said stacking Bleed procs is very viable, i do it with most of my melees. Viral+Slash crit melees work miracles versus truly armoured enemies.

 

EDIT: let's not forget Coiling Impale btw. It's one of the easiest Finisher promp combos to execute, just RMB+E spam for greatness.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Autongnosis

[Epsik-kun]

9 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

CD PS does 208'435 first strike

That would work that way if stealth multipliers worked the way you describe with Blood Rush melee, which they don't. I'll take my time on your post later.

[DreadWarlock]

On 30/06/2016 at 11:09 PM, OzoneSlayer said:

OK you asked for it

 

http://goo.gl/MNQdBy

 

And I managed to out dps your build but also you had to take off your precious syndicate proc and still ended up with less dps

Except that your weapon became unmanageable with the excess speed. WIthout combos it's just numbers on paper

Edited July 5, 2016 by DreadWarlock

[Epsik-kun]

14 hours ago, Autongnosis said:

Viral+Slash crit melees work miracles versus truly armoured enemies

Nah, not really.

14 hours ago, Autongnosis said:

to figure out the relative attack speed

Assuming you always go for Winding Claws on Swirling Tiger and for Coiling Impale on Crimson Dervish (accounting last 3 x 100% hits as one hit for easier calculation) makes attack speed of Dual Swords around 3.1 times faster than attacks of Longswords, accounting for unintentional pauses.

So, ultimately, my educated guess about damage output was correct - DPS goes to Prisma Dual Cleavers, damage per hit to theoretical Prisma Skana.

Argument about stealth bonus is valid in a sense of being one of few notable differences between two weapons, however is greatly overestimated.

First, going on merely x3 melee combo multiplier will put stealth boost from Naramon in the range of x2 damage increase. The further we go on our melee combo - the further our stealth multiplier decreases.

Second, calculation assumes that you're going to get the first stealth modified hit on every single enemy, which is far from truth, as going into melee range with regular attacks tends to remove that modifier from a large part of the crowd.

Third:

Spoiler

Dual Swords tend to have an okay spin attack.

Well, I am not being completely honest here, as that's Raza with a dedicated spin build, however Prisma Dual Cleavers still have spin attack with 210 base damage, which is twice the damage of Prisma Skana with Crimson Dervish.

 

So, as I said, giving Prisma Skana the stats I've proposed will put it on about the same tier as Prisma Dual Cleavers with some minor advantages and minor disadvantages (mostly disadvantages tbh). It will make it into a good, viable melee. Ichors will still be stronger though.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Epsik-kun