Cheat Tool False Positive And Rude Customer Service.

[EsperIsDead]

I opened warframe the other day and idled, letting my antivirus scan while I defragged my C:

I come back after eating lunch and try to open up the foundry. Nothing. Ok. Try to open up a mission via the galaxy map. Nothing again. Ok... Close Warframe and log back on, BAM! Account has been suspended until Jan 1. Ok....

Open up a ticket on warframe, explain the situation in as much detail as possible, wait a day, then read the following message,



Ok... First off, rude. Secondly, I don't own any cheat programs, and if I did, shouldn't my values or stats have been modified somehow? So either this is a server side error, or an error with your automatic banning tool. Now, if you don't want players cheating, then why have the values client side in the first place, because this is in fact what you are implying. Additionally, why are you talking down to your customers? Your response implies i'm a liar, and your system is absolute. If your system was absolute, then values wouldn't be client side in the first place. It seems more like you're aiming to lose potential paying customers by faulty coding and then belittling them by accusing them of cheating.

Now what's running through my mind now is that it doesn't matter if I play warframe or not because at any given time, I could be banned for just playing my game. That DEFINITELY doesn't compel me to buy anything from the market after day 2 of playing this game and i'm already receiving passive aggressive remarks from staff.

When there's exploits in a game, you patch them. You don't abuse the consumer to stop hackers. You move values that can be edited, server side. If that can't be done, have the server ping back with the client to make sure everything is accurate. Now, I was idle for a good 30 minutes at least. defragging and my antivirus shouldn't have changed anything unless warframe is sneaking in RAT's or trojans.

This left a bad taste in my mouth, and yeah i'm only one person, "So what? Big deal. So we lost one person, more bandwidth for us." But if i'm having this problem, then i'm positive other people are too. Having an open beta and still charging real money for it before the beta is over is in terrible tastes; Neverwinter online did the same thing and their market got completely screwed over because they didn't properly test out their bugs and exploits.

So to recap
1) Your cheat detector doesn't work
2) Your customer service is like dealing with one of those cops who treats you like crap because they can get away with it and you're black. (Racism still exists)
3) It is impossible for me to have modified any values, a.k.a. cheated because I was not at my pc.
4) Charging people during your beta stage, is a really risky business move given that beta means the game is still in development, but playable. Open beta was and should never be for financial profit, but as a way to ensure the quality of your game to a niche audience. It might make you money quick, but in the long run, it will cause you to lose a LOT of customers.
5) I wouldn't have spent all this time writing this novel if I was cheating. I already got unbanned, so if anything this puts me in more of a precarious situation then I was previously.

[Lunaticked]

There's -nothing- rude in their response, there's no evidence to anyone reading this that you did not attempt to cheat other than your own word, and they're giving you a pass.

[NanoDecerto]

How is that rude... at all?

[Jingleheimer]

I don't see anything rude.

[Angeplay]

Defragmenting + antivirus scan + game running... First learn to use a computer then you can complain about S#&$ happening.

[AXCrusnik]

There's -nothing- rude in their response, there's no evidence to anyone reading this that you did not attempt to cheat other than your own word, and they're giving you a pass.

Well they gave him a "warning". While I agree the response wasn't very rude, a warning for false positive does leave a bad taste, especially for how long he's been playing.

 

I don't think any of us would like a ban hammer looming over us 2 days after starting warframe.

Edited June 18, 2013 by AXCrusnik

[Xoxile]

That response, like the auto banning system in place, seems automated. Would appear they get this a lot, and like anyone else who does a repetitive job will get lazy. That's not to say this action is just. Just pointing out it's human nature.

As for editing values on client side. Warframe doesn't store account values on client side. It is all server side. The part about banning because cheatengine is running isn't because cheatengine works on Warframe, but it is about crushing all potential hackers with a Fragor instead of strategically removing the true offenders with a Snipetron.

[LoQui]

I see how it's rude, when a player contacts you trying to point out that your program made a false positive, you shouldn't shoot them down telling them that they absolutely were cheating.

 

You ask for specifics, and work with them to identify a possible problem.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't defrag move files around on the disk? Wouldn't that count as "modifying" game files if it tried to do that while warframe was running?

[UrsaBlack]

This worriers me, I have see first hand a gaming company use the ban hammer mistakenly.

[Dtexas]

That message is automated. That's what everyone gets when they are unbanned due to a false positive and such. But it should be fixed it I agree. This happened to my friend :c

[Enot83]

If you read the EULA and understand that cheat programs do not need to modify the game content only need to be able to read the data and have the potential to make changes or the end result is to be able to find how the game operates to do so.

 

At this point, it's your word against theirs, considering they have given you another chance, and warned you.  So that now you know in the future to not do what you were doing again, I don't see how this is rude.

 

If in the best interest of the game development the approach could be at some point, less about how you're feeling wronged by this, but finding a way to prevent a false positive if that is what truthfully occured.  I'm not sure the current route you're taking is going to have a positive outcome for you, or the development of the game.

 

I'm sorry to hear that this happend to you, hopefully rather than further ranting, this experience and knowledge can be turned into something more positive.

[Cleesus]

They gave you another chance after you were banned, how is that rude? Im not sure this belongs on the forums anyway.

[DeatH-ReapeR]

As I understood it hes question to them was why he was banned, and they SHOULD reply nicely back no matter what, and when the automated ban system should log everything to a database for what happened that made the ban?

 

Like a defragmentation gives false positive every time IF it has not been programmed 100% right and IF the game is running since it edits the files, moves it around, makes the hdd Work better. So the game engine is being tricked to think a cheat is going on so it bans it.

 

They should learn and answer politely back to them since he pointed out an error in their anti cheat system, wich they should like to recieve. and then improve it from there on.

 

I can make longer post if necassary but I don't believe it is.

[BenHoliday]

Defragmenting + antivirus scan + game running... First learn to use a computer then you can complain about S#&$ happening.

 

This right here. Odds are their cheat-scanning program can't tell the difference between de-fragmenting the hard drive, running a virus scan, and a cheat program. Of course, if cheat-detection programs ignored defrags and virus scans, in short order new cheat programs would come out that disguised themselves so as to avoid detection.

 

Be glad that you didn't have put in a ticket to resolve it this time, and make sure not to run the game while you're defragging and/or running a virus scan.

 

[BlueIstari]

2) Your customer service is like dealing with one of those cops who treats you like crap because they can get away with it and you're black. (Racism still exists)

 

I hope you realize how asinine this statement is, especially in the context of a customer service compaint. I get that you're upset, but... really? You're willing to make such a comparison and expect any degree of sympathy when the support message you displayed has nothing offensive whatsoever? Check yourself before overreacting to a perceived slight.

[Jingleheimer]

Disk Defragmentation is

1) Ancient and rarely useful nowadays

2) Not a cheat

3) Not detected as a cheat

4) Terrible to do when disk is in use, unless you like awful performance. And you don't, because you are defragging to get better performance.

5) A red herring, because It's Not Detected As A Cheat.

AntiVirus is

1) Performance Killer

2) Not a cheat

3) Not detected as a cheat

4) Terrible to run scans when disk is in use, unless you like awful performance.

5) A red herring, because It's Not Detected As A Cheat.

What is detected as a cheat?

1) Cheating Programs.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Jingleheimer

[fishworshipper]

I still don't get why they completely ban you if it detects a cheat program, rather than something logical like force-close Warframe.

False-positives would basically be stopped, cheaters still wouldn't be able to cheat, everyone's happy.

[Satwo]

defragmenting = disassembling data and re-arranging it into the same form.

disassembling data.

in other words, you were altering game data while the game was running.

then you have the audacity to call DE liars? youve got some balls man, but if you had actually put 2 and 2 together, youd know that you were doing EXACTLY what anti-cheats were designed to catch. you tampered with game files while the game was running.

they gave you a pass for your foolishness. dont disappoint them.

[EsperIsDead]

Well I can't exactly quote everyone so let me reiterate.

Being "Given another chance" "This is your one and only warning" and "Next ban will be permanent" implies that I was lying in the first place despite my explanation. This isn't so much personal as it is an open letter to a business. I've been unbanned so it isn't much of a problem for me as it is unprofessional. However let us take a look at other MMO's who have adopted the same tactics in open beta and customer service. War Z is a prime example of this (Another part of the steam network until a few months ago) where the game was riddled with bugs, had open exploits which never got patched, charged people for items and services they never received among a LOT of other issues, which customer service replied with an air of arrogance, refusing to help out even a single customer.

War Z is now banned from the Steam system and for the most part, defunct. Despite all the hype of a zombie MMO, it's basically unplayable, and therefor, noone really plays it anymore going from international sensation to what it is now. I'm not speaking out of my rear here. I shouldn't have to be given "another chance". Defragmentation does not alter values or game data unless that data is redundant. I'm not sure why anyone would think that at all, nor do I understand why it would effect gameplay at all besides lowering my fps by a few seconds.

Now if I were a programmer attaching an anti-cheat device like the all famous punkbuster, I would either require a separate client to attach itself to run the launcher through its own program and therefor scan values, pinging them back to the server, or just... you know, put it in the client. Depending on how the engine is designed, there can be instances where some cheats just aren't fixable due to limits in the programming. HOWEVER; any cash market effected values that are client side that can be edited is just stupid, as they can and should be patched and fixed in any circumstance.

Take a look at the gaming industry guys. The games have become less about quality and art and more about making an immediate profit in any way necessary. Screwing the consumer in the process in most cases, which brings up the Xbox One as a prime example, a complete money hemorrhagic designed to siphon as much money as it can while punching the consumers straight in the nads to deter piracy. I don't agree with the route gaming companies are taking as it always screws over companies in the long run. If your program is in beta, then you have no business accusing anyone of cheating unless values have been openly modified, and it is completely impossible for that to have happened. So by logical presumption, their anti-hack tool, just scans your registries and (possibly) processes for installed or running instances of game-altering clients, which if that is really the case, beyond absolutely $&*&*#(%& and immensely lazy as any actual hacker wouldn't use something as base as a cheat engine to alter values if the game was properly patched, however someone who didn't know what they were doing would try that and discover after an hour of pointless attempts, that they couldn't do it either. They would need an injector, which brings me back to punkbuster which is an injector in itself that refutes other injectors and external clients attempting to alter values. Funny enough, i've never been banned or even warned for cheating whenever i've played any punkbuster enabled game.

So to recap:
1) Open letter to warframe staff, don't accuse and berate consumers for issues with your own client you clearly haven't fixed. It's unprofessional and lazy.
2) If you want a functioning anti-hack tool, take tips from punkbuster, add an injector which in itself is completely server based (I.E. cloud supported) and don't give me any of that financial issues crap when you're charging as much as 199$ to customers for "credits" and borderline gamebreaking skills, in an open beta. You either have money to roll as a cuban cigar smoked with an elegant blend of caviar blaque mixed with tobacco dipped in liquid gold, or you're really, really suffering as a gaming company.
3) This isn't a flame war. This isn't a place to be abusive to each other. There's nothing i've said that needs to be taken personally, but rather constructively criticized by the company itself. telling each other to screw off on the forums is like peeing in a pool of pee.
 

Edited June 19, 2013 by EsperIsDead

[General-Griffin]

I hate punkbuster with a passion, the only thing that made it bearable for me is that steam downloaded it for me but it gave me so many issues with games, firewalls and steam  I'd have to download it again manually and clean install it. I know it doesn't happen for everyone but I don't think this game has that big a problem with cheaters or none that I've noticed anyway. I suppose I wouldn't if were all fighting AI.

Edited June 19, 2013 by General-Griffin

[chanw4]

Well I can't exactly quote everyone so let me reiterate.

Being "Given another chance" "This is your one and only warning" and "Next ban will be permanent" implies that I was lying in the first place despite my explanation. This isn't so much personal as it is an open letter to a business. I've been unbanned so it isn't much of a problem for me as it is unprofessional. However let us take a look at other MMO's who have adopted the same tactics in open beta and customer service. War Z is a prime example of this (Another part of the steam network until a few months ago) where the game was riddled with bugs, had open exploits which never got patched, charged people for items and services they never received among a LOT of other issues, which customer service replied with an air of arrogance, refusing to help out even a single customer.

War Z is now banned from the Steam system and for the most part, defunct. Despite all the hype of a zombie MMO, it's basically unplayable, and therefor, noone really plays it anymore going from international sensation to what it is now. I'm not speaking out of my rear here. I shouldn't have to be given "another chance". Defragmentation does not alter values or game data unless that data is redundant. I'm not sure why anyone would think that at all, nor do I understand why it would effect gameplay at all besides lowering my fps by a few seconds.

Now if I were a programmer attaching an anti-cheat device like the all famous punkbuster, I would either require a separate client to attach itself to run the launcher through its own program and therefor scan values, pinging them back to the server, or just... you know, put it in the client. Depending on how the engine is designed, there can be instances where some cheats just aren't fixable due to limits in the programming. HOWEVER; any cash market effected values that are client side that can be edited is just stupid, as they can and should be patched and fixed in any circumstance.

Take a look at the gaming industry guys. The games have become less about quality and art and more about making an immediate profit in any way necessary. Screwing the consumer in the process in most cases, which brings up the Xbox One as a prime example, a complete money hemorrhagic designed to siphon as much money as it can while punching the consumers straight in the nads to deter piracy. I don't agree with the route gaming companies are taking as it always screws over companies in the long run. If your program is in beta, then you have no business accusing anyone of cheating unless values have been openly modified, and it is completely impossible for that to have happened. So by logical presumption, their anti-hack tool, just scans your registries and (possibly) processes for installed or running instances of game-altering clients, which if that is really the case, beyond absolutely $&*&*#(%& and immensely lazy as any actual hacker wouldn't use something as base as a cheat engine to alter values if the game was properly patched, however someone who didn't know what they were doing would try that and discover after an hour of pointless attempts, that they couldn't do it either. They would need an injector, which brings me back to punkbuster which is an injector in itself that refutes other injectors and external clients attempting to alter values. Funny enough, i've never been banned or even warned for cheating whenever i've played any punkbuster enabled game.

So to recap:

1) Open letter to warframe staff, don't accuse and berate consumers for issues with your own client you clearly haven't fixed. It's unprofessional and lazy.

2) If you want a functioning anti-hack tool, take tips from punkbuster, add an injector which in itself is completely server based (I.E. cloud supported) and don't give me any of that financial issues crap when you're charging as much as 199$ to customers for "credits" and borderline gamebreaking skills, in an open beta. You either have money to roll as a cuban cigar smoked with an elegant blend of caviar blaque mixed with tobacco dipped in liquid gold, or you're really, really suffering as a gaming company.

3) This isn't a flame war. This isn't a place to be abusive to each other. There's nothing i've said that needs to be taken personally, but rather constructively criticized by the company itself. telling each other to screw off on the forums is like peeing in a pool of pee.

 

 

1) you can't proof it. They detected things are wonky on your end, what else do you expect?

2) You have no idea hows their anti cheat system work. Who is the rude one here? Unless of course you do know how their system work and i'm starting to doubt your claim. 

 

And to your other un-recapped stuff. seriously, comparing Warframe to War Z? are you insane, you know why War Z is ban? they are selling unfinished product and put false claim on their store page, not because they are rude to customer. Even then, i don't think the message is rude or anything.

[tiennen07]

Disk Defragmentation is

1) Ancient and rarely useful nowadays

2) Not a cheat

3) Not detected as a cheat

4) Terrible to do when disk is in use, unless you like awful performance. And you don't, because you are defragging to get better performance.

5) A red herring, because It's Not Detected As A Cheat.

AntiVirus is

1) Performance Killer

2) Not a cheat

3) Not detected as a cheat

4) Terrible to run scans when disk is in use, unless you like awful performance.

5) A red herring, because It's Not Detected As A Cheat.

What is detected as a cheat?

1) Cheating Programs.

 

You dont have any idea how a computer works, do you?

 

Anything that can potentially move around game files while the game is running has the potential to be detected as a cheat.

 

I think the problem at the base of all of this is that the guy was running TWO performance-killing programs while running Warframe.  I mean, come on.  You are not supposed to have ANY OTHER PROCESSES RUNNING when doing a defrag on your HD, it says so before you start the defrag.

 

Hell I'm surprised that his Warframe installaton didn't get corrupted.

Edited June 19, 2013 by tiennen07

[Tsukinoki]

@tiennen07

Same here. Normally running a game that the defrag decides to move around corrupts more than a few files and normally requires a reinstall. Having antivirus running a scan over the files that defrag is moving around also causes that. I wonder how many corrupted files OP has regularly....kinda makes me wonder about how honest he is being about those being the only things running.

Also I didn't see anything rude in the message, its the standard automated reply to ban appeals.

[tiennen07]

@tiennen07

Same here. Normally running a game that the defrag decides to move around corrupts more than a few files and normally requires a reinstall. Having antivirus running a scan over the files that defrag is moving around also causes that. I wonder how many corrupted files OP has regularly....kinda makes me wonder about how honest he is being about those being the only things running.

Also I didn't see anything rude in the message, its the standard automated reply to ban appeals

 

I'm thinking that if the defrag DID corrupt some of the files on his Warframe install, but it was still able to start,....maybe the cheat detector saw the corrupted files as "modified"?

Edited June 19, 2013 by tiennen07

[Tsukinoki]

@tiennen07

That is another possibility. The file was corrupt in some *small* way so as to not affect running it(which is possible) but the cheat detector saw that the files hash wasn't matching up to its master list so it banned him. And false positives like that are *very* hard to code around because of how hard/impossible they are to re-create.