Let us not forget about Equinox

[Antiphoton]

Don't be so hard on him/her, tnccs215, we cannot expect everybody to have read all the threads about Equinox. Actually, I think that in this case, the repetition of the same ideas can be a good sign: it shows that there is a semblance of consensus amongst those who have bothered to use her beyond the mastery fodder level, and it brings attention to the matter. The more voices we have, the better.

I do realize that, no matter what we do here, there is a very real chance that DE won't do anything about it. But there is no harm in trying, or keep insisting if we believe that our claims have a valid base. We are here to give feedback, after all. Until we get an official answer, it's fine to keep doing it.

A few times, in the rare cases when I crossed paths with Equinox users on high level missions, I asked them to come here and take a look at the proposed ideas. Most of them left positive feedback (which I appreciate). I intend to keep trying to bring attention to her state as much as I can, without becoming a spammer.

[tnccs215]

21 minutes ago, Antiphoton said:

Don't be so hard on him/her, tnccs215, we cannot expect everybody to have read all the threads about Equinox.

Well, no, but when someone tells another person that they should read the rest because the I comment was already said, than you'd expect that person to go do that... Or at least have done that when they answer again. Or have learned from that.

 

21 minutes ago, Antiphoton said:

Actually, I think that in this case, the repetition of the same ideas can be a good sign: it shows that there is a semblance of consensus amongst those who have bothered to use her beyond the mastery fodder level

I don't believe we can deduce the amount of use that person gave Equinox from their words.

And from personal experience, what they said actually comes from someone that really doesn't use her that much, or at least doesn't look that deep into the issues.

I do agree it shows that there exists a consensus. I just thing it's one from the community in general (who doesn't use her that much), and not from careful observation.

21 minutes ago, Antiphoton said:

A few times, in the rare cases when I crossed paths with Equinox users on high level missions, I asked them to come here and take a look at the proposed ideas. Most of them left positive feedback (which I appreciate). I intend to keep trying to bring attention to her state as much as I can, without becoming a spammer.

Thats actually a really good thing to do.

I'll just be here, engulfed myself on my salt and arrogantly uncompromiseable point of view

(not even being sarcastic. All this negative isn't healthy)

Edited August 31, 2016 by tnccs215

[zehne]

You're saying the having a channeled ability such as Mend do healing overtime would be a bad Idea.  I want to ask you what would be a good Idea then?

Should we just replace Mend with a 1:1 copy of blessing minus the damage reduction?

 

I said Mend was clunky because of it's mechanic you can't argue that.  It has a long cast time to begin, then something HAS to die in it's radius, THEN you can actually heal by 'detonating it'.  Warframe is generally a very fast paced game.  In such a setting a long cast time is a major draw back, having to meet additional requirements after that cast time to actually make the ability work is frustrating.  When you are about to die, you don't want to have to stop to try and heal.

2nd Idea for Mend; Copy the 'shielding abilities'.  When you initially cast Mend you become immune to damage for 3 seconds (at the very start of cast).  All damage taken during that time is converted to Mend charge.

[tnccs215]

25 minutes ago, zehne said:

You're saying the having a channeled ability such as Mend do healing overtime would be a bad Idea.  I want to ask you what would be a good Idea then?

Should we just replace Mend with a 1:1 copy of blessing minus the damage reduction?

You are thinking too low, young grasshoper.

First, we have to had a suitable benefit to activate the ability in the first place. Maim does that by giving the stun and the damage over time-- though mostly due to the stun.

It must not be something that would step over the toes of its deactivation bonus, of course.

Than, we have to find a way of not sending all that overheal to waste. 

Over the course of the year, this was discussed in several threads, so I am going to use ideas that were already proposed-- in particular, in Archwizard's thread, the infamous "Retune *all* frames!". Go check it if you want, discussion on her has ended not too long ago.

For the initial benefit, something such as status immunity and/or (proposed by the above mentioned Archwizard) absence of shield recharge delay. Other things, like reduced enemy accuracy, or a slow effect (before peaceful provocation was a thing) were also proposed, but they dont fit an ability called "Mend" quite as well as, well... defense through restoration.

Than, a temporary "overhealth" could be applied to all allies in range. working much like Rhino's Iron skin, this health would correspond to the unused stored hp divided by all allies in range. To prevent abuse, it would be temporary (maybe even capped), and could not be restored until depleted.

Another idea would be for a dome to be created in the place where the ability is decasted. this dome would be able to heal a grand total amount of the excess healing, and would do so to any allie that entered it, effectively creating a safe space for the duration. Of coure, there could only be one at a time.

A must would also be to add an icon to all allies in range, in order to facilitate positioning for the decast. This is nonnegotiable really. 

Some also argued that the heal could have no range limitation, but this lasting effect-- either the overhealth, or the dome-- would be reduced to the ability's range. Others said it would be too powerful. It's open for debate, really.

25 minutes ago, zehne said:

I said Mend was clunky because of it's mechanic you can't argue that.  It has a long cast time to begin, then something HAS to die in it's radius, THEN you can actually heal by 'detonating it'.  Warframe is generally a very fast paced game.  In such a setting a long cast time is a major draw back, having to meet additional requirements after that cast time to actually make the ability work is frustrating.  When you are about to die, you don't want to have to stop to try and heal.

I know. I never argued against it. quite the contrary, I was and am a fervent defender that Mend might possibly be the worst ultimate ingame, and second worst team heal-- second only to Blazing Chackram (which is a 2)-- for those exact same reasons.

I just said it wasn't the biggest reason people complained about Equinox, nor that it was invariably the source of all "she's clunky" arguments.

I did not fully agree with you not because you were wrong, but because you lacked vital information in your claims.

25 minutes ago, zehne said:

2nd Idea for Mend; Copy the 'shielding abilities'.  When you initially cast Mend you become immune to damage for 3 seconds (at the very start of cast).  All damage taken during that time is converted to Mend charge.

mh... not bad actually. not bad at all. Might even add it to my personal list of possible fixes.

Edited August 31, 2016 by tnccs215

[Matt89Connor]

equi is a difficolt frame to use.....but  she strong, maybe needs a help with duality agument, and the second ability has to low range for high cost..i play often the night version and the second ability can help, but the second of the day not help well ...

another problem is the speed cast for the 4...too long

Edited August 31, 2016 by Matt89Connor
fix

[tnccs215]

2 hours ago, Matt89Connor said:

equi is a difficolt frame to use.....but  she strong, maybe needs a help with duality agument, and the second ability has to low range for high cost..i play often the night version and the second ability can help, but the second of the day not help well ...

another problem is the speed cast for the 4...too long

Well...

I have around 2k hours of gameplay in this game. 22% of those were spent playing Equinox.

That is 440 hours straight playing her. It's a lot.

So, trust me when I tell you this: She isn't difficult, she is clunky.

[Antiphoton]

I have edited and updated the original post to try to address better what has been discussed. If you are following this thread, I'd appreciate if you can check that, and let me know if you have anything else to add.

[AllenWalker007]

I just stumbled upon this thread and my god, so many details and excellent ideas. I also like how you clarify that her being underpowered is not the problem, but rather her clunky (discouraging form switching) skill set. This thread definitely needs a revival

[zehne]

• Considering that currently Mend and Maim store charge the exact same way; there is no reason why you shouldn't keep that charge stored while switching forms imo.  Although admittedly this would be a bigger + to day form because Maim does damage plus stagger on top of storing charge, while mend just stores it.
• Cannot express enough how aggravatingly slow Peaceful Provocation charges it's Aura on Pacify.  It's also counter intuitive that taking more damage makes you take less damage.  Being able to swap forms and maintain the augment ramp-up seems only fair, especially since it takes considerable time/health/shields to charge it.
  • Pacify should have an initial slow value assigned to it (innate, no augment).  My suggestion is 25% for 100% power strength (which with the augment would ramp up to a cap of 80% at 200% power strength)
    • Provoke should get adjusted to 25% at 100% power strength but maintain it's 80% cap.  This would mean that both Pacify and Provoke would scale 1:1 for slow/power strength boost.  The augment would only up the cap with it's ramping.
      • This would allow the Power strength bonus of Provoke to directly translate into slow % of Pacify with or without the augment.

Edited September 7, 2016 by zehne

[tnccs215]

4 hours ago, AllenWalker007 said:

I just stumbled upon this thread and my god, so many details and excellent ideas. I also like how you clarify that her being underpowered is not the problem, but rather her clunky (discouraging form switching) skill set. This thread definitely needs a revival

yeah... Discussion on Equinox ranges from cringeworthy ("Equinox is fine she has like, Rest and Maim") and rather, rather interesting. Antiphoton here has been responsible for a lot of it, being able to maintain both a seriousness and an optimism I simply am not capable of. This thread is a great example of that.

 

2 hours ago, zehne said:

• Considering that currently Mend and Maim store charge the exact same way; there is no reason why you shouldn't keep that charge stored while switching forms imo.  Although admittedly this would be a bigger + to day form because Maim does damage plus stagger on top of storing charge, while mend just stores it.
• Cannot express enough how aggravatingly slow Peaceful Provocation charges it's Aura on Pacify.  It's also counter intuitive that taking more damage makes you take less damage.  Being able to swap forms and maintain the augment ramp-up seems only fair, especially since it takes considerable time/health/shields to charge it.
  • Pacify should have an initial slow value assigned to it (innate, no augment).  My suggestion is 25% for 100% power strength (which with the augment would ramp up to a cap of 80% at 200% power strength)
    • Provoke should get adjusted to 25% at 100% power strength but maintain it's 80% cap.  This would mean that both Pacify and Provoke would scale 1:1 for slow/power strength boost.  The augment would only up the cap with it's ramping.
      • This would allow the Power strength bonus of Provoke to directly translate into slow % of Pacify with or without the augment.

I like those ideas. Ehrm... It's odd but, how arrogant am I for saying "thank god you learned"? Cause I see you shifted from thinking she was ok to admit that she has some somewhat serious problems-- many of them I (a bit too agressively) presented to you.

[zehne]

20 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Cause I see you shifted from thinking she was ok to admit that she has some somewhat serious problems-- many of them I (a bit too agressively) presented to you.

Maybe It's my fault for not clarifying or yours for 'being aggressive' or both.  My viewpoint on equinox is unchanged.

She is indeed powerful and 'okay' to use in the sense that if you mod/play her right (and carefully) 90% the time you will never have a problem.

• The counterpoint is that it's not fluid game-play at all.
• Falling off edges, nullifiers, swapping forms, magnetic procs, etc.  Are all reasons that make her 'not okay'
  • This is probably what I should of clarified about.

And I can't think of anything better really than giving Pacify an innate slow.  Doing that would significantly reduce our frustrations about losing our aura to any one of the power blocks. That's not to say that it'd completely satisfy.

• Would still like 'charge' to transfer over on metamorphosis (pacify/provoke and mend/maim)
• Would still like lower ramp-up/better ramp-up mechanics
  • Why can't pacify ramp-up based on enemies killed in our aura
    • We are 'pacifying' them.
• Would still like to see non-decaying metamorphosis bonuses(albeit if they need some re-tuning so be it)
  • Base duration should be longer
  • Should be able to 'hold' ability for a re toggle of bonuses w/o switching forms

[Antiphoton]

Regarding Rest, what would you think if the wake up threshold would be raised to 99.99%? Meaning that enemies wake up as soon as they take any form of damage. That's similar to how sleep mechanics work in other games. 

[(PSN)CrispyNipill]

On 8/31/2016 at 10:39 PM, tnccs215 said:

Well...

I have around 2k hours of gameplay in this game. 22% of those were spent playing Equinox.

That is 440 hours straight playing her. It's a lot.

So, trust me when I tell you this: She isn't difficult, she is clunky.

nightmode, stun>kill>stun>kill

daymode, kill>kill>KILL>kill

not difficult or clunky

[Antiphoton]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)CrispyNipill said:

nightmode, stun>kill>stun>kill

daymode, kill>kill>KILL>kill

not difficult or clunky

Read the original post, please. You are not helping.

[tnccs215]

15 hours ago, zehne said:

Maybe It's my fault for not clarifying or yours for 'being aggressive' or both.  My viewpoint on equinox is unchanged.

She is indeed powerful and 'okay' to use in the sense that if you mod/play her right (and carefully) 90% the time you will never have a problem.

• The counterpoint is that it's not fluid game-play at all.
• Falling off edges, nullifiers, swapping forms, magnetic procs, etc.  Are all reasons that make her 'not okay'
  • This is probably what I should of clarified about.

And I can't think of anything better really than giving Pacify an innate slow.  Doing that would significantly reduce our frustrations about losing our aura to any one of the power blocks. That's not to say that it'd completely satisfy.

• Would still like 'charge' to transfer over on metamorphosis (pacify/provoke and mend/maim)
• Would still like lower ramp-up/better ramp-up mechanics
  • Why can't pacify ramp-up based on enemies killed in our aura
    • We are 'pacifying' them.
• Would still like to see non-decaying metamorphosis bonuses(albeit if they need some re-tuning so be it)
  • Base duration should be longer
  • Should be able to 'hold' ability for a re toggle of bonuses w/o switching forms

I advise you all (specially you @AllenWalker007) to go check this thread, from page 101 forward:

It's already pretty much over, but the discussion regarding Equinox there was one of the most constructive I've had (specially since it wasn't just arguing against a bunch of people in denial that just because something is powerful it doesn't mean it's well made). @Azamagon gave great ideas for ways in how to fix the ability, and even though the final rework the OP preferred didn't fully fit my preferences at the time, it was nevertheless a rather satisfying discussion.

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)CrispyNipill said:

nightmode, stun>kill>stun>kill

daymode, kill>kill>KILL>kill

not difficult or clunky

The only reason I'm not throwing an overly sarcastic answer is for @Antiphoton's sake.

[(PSN)CrispyNipill]

5 hours ago, Antiphoton said:

Read the original post, please. You are not helping.

if you can't understand equinox, please read ability descriptions

 

 

[Antiphoton]

4 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

It's already pretty much over, but the discussion regarding Equinox there was one of the most constructive I've had (specially since it wasn't just arguing against a bunch of people in denial that just because something is powerful it doesn't mean it's well made). @Azamagon gave great ideas for ways in how to fix the ability, and even though the final rework the OP preferred didn't fully fit my preferences at the time, it was nevertheless a rather satisfying discussion.

I haven't checked that in a while, will do it later today, surely. In any case, I think it's healthy for the matter if she has her own dedicated threads now and then.

33 minutes ago, (PS4)CrispyNipill said:

if you can't understand equinox, please read ability descriptions

Ok. Thanks for bumping the thread. Bye.

[AllenWalker007]

14 hours ago, (PS4)CrispyNipill said:

nightmode, stun>kill>stun>kill

daymode, kill>kill>KILL>kill

not difficult or clunky

So basically what you're saying is..:

nightmode: spam rest

daymode: spam maim

8 hours ago, (PS4)CrispyNipill said:

if you can't understand equinox, please read ability descriptions

 

 

Wow, it must take some serious skill and super high IQ to "understand" so much about equinox. How could we all have never thought of this? Playing equinox is simply pressing 2 and 4 over and over again!! What a fool we are. Thank you, kind sir, for your completely constructive, rational, intelligent feedback that definitely represents the point of this thread :).

Oh and also, thanks for bumping this thread

 

12 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

I advise you all (specially you @AllenWalker007) to go check this thread, from page 101 forward:

It's already pretty much over, but the discussion regarding Equinox there was one of the most constructive I've had (specially since it wasn't just arguing against a bunch of people in denial that just because something is powerful it doesn't mean it's well made). @Azamagon gave great ideas for ways in how to fix the ability, and even though the final rework the OP preferred didn't fully fit my preferences at the time, it was nevertheless a rather satisfying discussion

 

I have read some, but not all of them. Will check it out later

Edited September 9, 2016 by AllenWalker007

[EchoesOfRain]

Recently picked up Equinox again after dropping her for quite some time. A bit sad to see that People are still asking for the same things for her from when she was first released. But great to know that there are people who still love her

 

I'm still all up for the Overhealth idea for Mend. While Mend is active allies are immune to any abnormal statuses such as being knocked down. Meanwhile, they slowly gain Overhealth over time (Up to a max bonus health). Health will slowly regen, as well. I think it's a fair counterpart to Maim's massive AoE stun

[(XBOX)Lmacncheese]

i would like if there was a chance to go into her split form with eachhalf active so both abilties are cast at the same time like heal and dmg sleep and rage

[Antiphoton]

2 hours ago, (XB1)bioblaze10656 said:

i would like if there was a chance to go into her split form with eachhalf active so both abilties are cast at the same time like heal and dmg sleep and rage

The problem with that is that you would have to depend on the AI for the other form, and it would be too op.

[Antiphoton]

Considering that today is her day, maybe we should remember the ideas mentioned here?

[tnccs215]

happy birthday.

[tnccs215]

On ‎11‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 11:03 PM, Antiphoton said:

I propose Rest to have it's duration halved, or the wake-up threshold increased to 90%, and Rage have it's damage increase toned down, but removing completely the enemy speed increase. This will never replace a speed Nova.

I have some feedback on these proposed changes: While I agree on your justifications for them, I dont agree with them. One of the biggest problem I see with Rest is not as much its function, but its spammability. Not only that isnt fixed on your proposed changes, its most intensely cheesie use-- Rest spam+ Covert lethality-- will go from being the best alternative to being the only alternative.

As such, I think a suitable nerf would be to reduce Rest's areas to one or two. If you cast more than those, the previously asleep enemies will wake up. Additionally, to compensate, it could be a zone instead of a quick cast: All enemies that enter the radius for the duration are put to sleep. This would benefit defensive, tactical gameplay; much more suitable to Night form than the spam frenzy it currently is.

Regarding Day form, I think maintaining the speed buff, but removing their ranged weapons would be enough.

[Antiphoton]

I don't agree with the target reduction, that would mean that it cannot be affected by range mods, therefore reducing customization options. However, I like a lot the sleep zone idea. So when I get back home I'll update the op to the following (it's kinda messy doing it from my phone):

Rest should be a sleep zone at the casted location. It has a base duration of 25 secs at max rank, a cast time of 1.5 secs, a wake up threshold of 99% (any damage taken wakes up the affected enemies), and Equinox cannot have more than 4 sleep zones at the same time. How about that?

About Rage, I love the disarm idea. It would open up for a lot of possibilities, for example giving it synergy with stuff like Bastille.